**If we can leave the bash/praise Gettleman overall stuff to the other threads.**
I'm not sure where I fall on the trade, but I think we all agree the trade's success depends on Williams being extended.
I fear Williams has the leverage. Gettleman would have a lot to answer for if he gave up a 3rd round pick for half a season.
Positives for the Giants:
- right to franchise or transition
- 8 game tryout to gauge fit
- he knows the area and no move required
Negatives:
- ~18M tag and risk of alienating Williams
- Williams might assess the situation and want no part of it
- He might command a position topping contract with over 1.5B open cap space in the NFL this year alone
I don't see how it's in Williams's interest to extend without testing the market. I think the only good outcome for the Giants is a fair, below market setting deal, otherwise let him walk.
What factors am I missing?
How mush will it take to get Golden?
I personally dislike the idea of paying him edge rusher dollars, but hope they know better than me.
I personally dislike the idea of paying him edge rusher dollars, but hope they know better than me.
At this point, some would question if they know better than you.
But, from what I have seen, he is quicker than everyone on the dline and makes a really nice pairing with D Lawrence. I know a number of people have said he hasn't shown anything, like OV - close but no cigar. IMHO, he is much quicker than Vernon and I can see why they would like him.
But yeah, a yes for $10 to $12 mill, but see yeah for over $15 mill.
How mush will it take to get Golden?
Really? Markus Golden is a one way player, until he starts stopping the run, we shouldn’t pay him like he is. I’d be fine with 9m a yr. 13+? Goodbye
That's really interesting. But then really calls into question the value of trading picks. When I read that, I think; the Giants are gambling a guy who's a career underachiever, and underachieved an 8 game tryout, will then blossom when given a longterm contract. Unless he he really kills it over the next 6 games, which I would think would then up his value.
How mush will it take to get Golden?
They don't play the same position and we spent draft picks to acquire Williams.
Gettleman to offer what he had to know would be a very high 3rd round plus another pick as a rental for half a season when they had no hopes of the playoffs
Need to find the impact Edge talent to build around via the draft, and look at the market to find a younger upgrade for Golden who could be a foundation piece. I wouldn't view Golden as foundation. If you let him walk, you could well be worse in 2020 but it's only part of the decision calculus.
If resign him asap.
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Seems to be labeled an underachiever. I would think that would help nyg with cost, also risk involved that the underachiever never blossoms.
That's really interesting. But then really calls into question the value of trading picks. When I read that, I think; the Giants are gambling a guy who's a career underachiever, and underachieved an 8 game tryout, will then blossom when given a longterm contract. Unless he he really kills it over the next 6 games, which I would think would then up his value.
Christian, it's an interesting situation. Williams from my limited knowledge of him seems to be a steady player which is underachieving based on what was expected of him out of USC. However, unless I am mistaken, I believe Gettleman referred to him as a foundation type player which means they are banking on him elevating his play. We also should consider other factors that could have had a hand on him underachieving.
There's a report both sides will talk contract before Thanksgiving.
If somehow Gettleman gets Williams to sign a fair deal without testing free agency in a huge dollar market, that would be great.
That would be criminal by his agent, but great for the Giants.
Over pay put Fanny's in seats.
And draft the 5th / 6th round 340 lb classic nose T to set our current 4 off and round out the one gapping w some two gapping at spots.
Imo in a front 3 you need roster at least 5 bigs on game day.
Yep. And how many underachievers finally realized their potential after getting a huge NFL contract. Approximately zero.
How can you logically discuss an illogical decision. Gettlemen will now have traded a 3rd and two fourth rd picks for williams and ogletree!
That's asking a lot for BBI.
I don't see Williams as the type of player to get an offer over 18M guaranteed and a team willing to give the Giants compensation.
Plus. Who cares we want to see defense.
That's some fantastic logic there.
I’ll leave it to the experts to decide whether that’s worth it for a DL with 17 career sacks.
I’ll leave it to the experts to decide whether that’s worth it for a DL with 17 career sacks.
Paying top 5 money for the position would obviously be terrible. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility though.
Why wouldn't they just sign him to an extension then?
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Williams wants to stay in the New York area and quite likely that an understanding was reached with his agent.
Why wouldn't they just sign him to an extension then?
Because his agent isn't a moron who's going to sign a deal below market value without reviewing all the options.
That's the flaw in any defense of the trade. It relies on the premise that Williams can be extended below market value before he's either tagged or able to negotiate with 31 other teams.
Williams has all of the leverage here. Gettleman has none.
1. No leverage for the Giants.
2. Gave up a 3rd and 4th. sometimes they pan out , sometimes they don't but you also have to figure in now what he will get paid
3. Agree they have discussed a contract value/term before doing this OR DG is a total moron. And are the owners
4. With coaching on the D being up in the air in the fans minds at least, this is a huge mistake
Sometimes you make big mistakes and have to admit it, move on.
Draft Capital isn't as huge a miss as draft captial plus a long term deal for 50M.
See how he plays the next few games. Dont give a contract before EOY and he is healthy if your giving one.
I prefer DG admits he is a Dinosaur and move on. I prefer the kid too from JAX eventhought its a 4-3....if we can get him
I personally dislike the idea of paying him edge rusher dollars, but hope they know better than me.
I think they've proven that they do not.
That said, I think Williams is a good player and is scheme diverse. I think the fact that he is only 25 years old in the prime of his career makes signing him to a 5 year deal a good idea.
He should be kept and as some said if they are truly going to start negotiations prior to Thanksgiving then all the better.
As for -re-signing Golden, I agree that I would rather get Ngonkoue and possibly draft Young.
We need to have a dominant D Line once and for all.
Could you imagine this?
Young, Williams, Tomlinson, Lawrence, Yannick
That is what I am hoping DG is planning on.
Additionally the defense may be (likely to be?) under new leadership and a new scheme. In fact the entire coaching staff could be different.
Add in that the player himself has not completely established his value yet, and it would seem like an obvious decision to want to see more of him.
Lastly since they project to have an abundance of cap room this offseason, the inflated value for 1 year seems like a worthwhile investment vs. putting money on future caps where they will likely not have as much flexibility. At least not until they know for sure whether or not Williams can be a core player on a successful defense.
It may even make sense to tag him 2 years in a row and then let him walk to recoup a conditional pick.
As long as one of the other owners does not go crazy, Giants will pay market value.
Please don't argue Landon Collins. The more you watch, the more you are convinced that the Giants did not want to keep him. In a passing league, he stinks.
The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.
The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.
You can go get him in free agency too, and nothing Leonard Williams has done in his NFL career to date would indicate that he's worth such a price. This is all based on projection for a guy in his fifth professional season.
The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.
The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.
What does overpay mean?
NFW. That is a bargain. The annual is starting at $17M.
I think we need to pay the guy though. He has been a good player for us and we need to start to keep players. I think he could be a core player and the 3rd & 4th round pick would be worth it. Yes you can find good players in those rounds but you have a guaranteed good player you keep him. He hasn't been great but he is really good and he gives the effort.
I’m surprised that some are willing to break the bank for Golden. He has seemed to be a bit of a letdown to me. Williams is 25 and Golden is 28, Golden plays a position that needs to produce sacks where Williams is mostly more of a interior lineman type. Williams has 17 sacks total and Golden has 25 total. Williams also has over 100 more tackles. I’m comparing the players and I shouldn’t. We own the trade, but it wasn’t the Giants that picked him 6th overall. If I was going to pay one it would be Williams easily. I might be trying to be way too optimistic but I have high hopes for Williams. Regardless, I wouldn’t have made the trade though.
The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.
The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.
It may surprise you to learn that good teams occasionally draft players in the 3rd round who can contribute at a fraction of what it will cost to keep Williams.
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People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.
You can go get him in free agency too, and nothing Leonard Williams has done in his NFL career to date would indicate that he's worth such a price. This is all based on projection for a guy in his fifth professional season.
The rest of my post explained why they couldn’t just “go get him” in free agency.
The Jets were shopping him and the Giants weren’t the only team interested in him. If he’s traded elsewhere he’s not likely to even hit the market.
LW aligns philosophically with what DG is trying to build. Look at the other guys he’s acquired along the defensive front. He’s young, stops the run, and pressures the QB. The sack production hasn’t been there, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be there as DG continues to build around that front.
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People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.
The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.
The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.
What does overpay mean?
It means an amount that you and probably a bunch of others will be bitching about in BBI in March.
Pointing out poor allocations of capital when the person's job it is to allocate capital properly has made various missteps I'm not sure how you could call that bitching. Now, the constant complaints about legitimate criticisms of a losing team that seems to execute poorly in certain areas especially, I think to me, that seems a lot more like bitching
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In comment 14683795 WillVAB said:
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People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.
The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.
The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.
What does overpay mean?
It means an amount that you and probably a bunch of others will be bitching about in BBI in March.
Man, you just aim to crush it with subtle analysis and cogent points.
But really, what do you think is a good value for this player? Even an overpay, do you even have a sense of what that might be?
To this point, DG has sucked at it.
Relative to his draft slot and his hype entering the league, he's absolutely an underachiever. That doesn't make him a bad player, and his initial draft slot isn't that significant since we weren't the team that drafted him #6 overall. But for what he's been vs. what he was supposed to be, he has not lived up to expectations. That's the definition of an underachiever.
I'd label him an underachiever so far in the NFL.
Btw, humorously enough Jarrett is the son of Jessie Tuggle, longtime player for the Falcs a couple of decades ago. How often does that happen?
Sure there is. Forget the contract and draft compensation for a moment. Just look at Williams through simple supply and demand.
DL is actually a position where we seem to have a nice blend of quality and quantity. And a lot of it is young. So why in the hell would we add a player to that mix? Espeically one with uneven production, questionable motor, and ready to cash in?
There are a lot more holes to plug and fix. Glaring holes. So this is setting up as just example of poor asset and roster management by Gettleman.
Simple question - is the projected $17M for LW better off on solving OL, LB, etc or pumping more money into a good group of DLs?
Answer seems very obvious...
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In comment 14683801 christian said:
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In comment 14683795 WillVAB said:
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People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.
The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.
The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.
What does overpay mean?
It means an amount that you and probably a bunch of others will be bitching about in BBI in March.
Man, you just aim to crush it with subtle analysis and cogent points.
But really, what do you think is a good value for this player? Even an overpay, do you even have a sense of what that might be?
If I had to guess I’d say he’s looking at 15-18 mil per year. 16 mil is the high end for a 3-4 DE.
The value will come if he’s a good two way DE who can increase the sack totals. Or if he’s a good two way DE that opens up opportunities for other players to make plays.
At a minimum, the Giants have a young, solid, 3-4 DE that’s pretty good vs the run and pushes the pocket/gets pressure. That has value. Will he live up to a big deal? We’ll see, but I feel like he’s a safer pay than the Vernon signing.
When you’re a bad team you have to overpay in FA if you want a guy. You’re not getting a hometown discount to play for a loser and/or rebuild. These guys are competitors and want to win.
Ultimately it won’t matter if he produces. It won’t matter if the team wins. The contract will only be an issue if he/team sucks and/or he’s injured all the time. We’ll see.