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Approach to Extending Williams

christian : 11/19/2019 8:11 am
**If we can leave the bash/praise Gettleman overall stuff to the other threads.**

I'm not sure where I fall on the trade, but I think we all agree the trade's success depends on Williams being extended.

I fear Williams has the leverage. Gettleman would have a lot to answer for if he gave up a 3rd round pick for half a season.

Positives for the Giants:
- right to franchise or transition
- 8 game tryout to gauge fit
- he knows the area and no move required

Negatives:
- ~18M tag and risk of alienating Williams
- Williams might assess the situation and want no part of it
- He might command a position topping contract with over 1.5B open cap space in the NFL this year alone

I don't see how it's in Williams's interest to extend without testing the market. I think the only good outcome for the Giants is a fair, below market setting deal, otherwise let him walk.

What factors am I missing?
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I’d rather extend Marcus Golden  
superspynyg : 11/19/2019 8:14 am : link
He has earned it from the first snap.

How mush will it take to get Golden?
I suppose it's in his interests  
JonC : 11/19/2019 8:15 am : link
if he wants to stay with NYG. Beyond that, their ability to tag him is their only control.

I personally dislike the idea of paying him edge rusher dollars, but hope they know better than me.
Williams  
crick n NC : 11/19/2019 8:28 am : link
Seems to be labeled an underachiever. I would think that would help nyg with cost, also risk involved that the underachiever never blossoms.
RE: I suppose it's in his interests  
section125 : 11/19/2019 8:30 am : link
In comment 14683389 JonC said:
Quote:


I personally dislike the idea of paying him edge rusher dollars, but hope they know better than me.


At this point, some would question if they know better than you.

But, from what I have seen, he is quicker than everyone on the dline and makes a really nice pairing with D Lawrence. I know a number of people have said he hasn't shown anything, like OV - close but no cigar. IMHO, he is much quicker than Vernon and I can see why they would like him.
But yeah, a yes for $10 to $12 mill, but see yeah for over $15 mill.
What length of an extension  
crick n NC : 11/19/2019 8:35 am : link
Do the giants target with Williams?
RE: I’d rather extend Marcus Golden  
aGiantGuy : 11/19/2019 8:38 am : link
In comment 14683387 superspynyg said:
Quote:
He has earned it from the first snap.

How mush will it take to get Golden?

Really? Markus Golden is a one way player, until he starts stopping the run, we shouldn’t pay him like he is. I’d be fine with 9m a yr. 13+? Goodbye
There had to be a plan in place before the trade  
BillT : 11/19/2019 8:40 am : link
Whatever you think of DG he didn’t make the trade without the signing of Williams as part of the equation. He probably talked to his agent and had a market price in mind. There are no guarantees but I’d be surprised if this doesn’t get done.
RE: Williams  
christian : 11/19/2019 8:41 am : link
In comment 14683394 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Seems to be labeled an underachiever. I would think that would help nyg with cost, also risk involved that the underachiever never blossoms.


That's really interesting. But then really calls into question the value of trading picks. When I read that, I think; the Giants are gambling a guy who's a career underachiever, and underachieved an 8 game tryout, will then blossom when given a longterm contract. Unless he he really kills it over the next 6 games, which I would think would then up his value.
My guess...  
AdamBrag : 11/19/2019 8:41 am : link
Giants will give him 4-years, $50m with $25m guaranteed.
RE: I’d rather extend Marcus Golden  
Giantology : 11/19/2019 8:43 am : link
In comment 14683387 superspynyg said:
Quote:
He has earned it from the first snap.

How mush will it take to get Golden?


They don't play the same position and we spent draft picks to acquire Williams.
Hard to Believe  
Samiam : 11/19/2019 8:43 am : link
It’s hard to believe the Giants didn’t negotiate with Williams representatives to some extent before the trade was made. Maybe the agent approached the team and said the Jets wanted to move him but he wants to stay in NY for personal or business reasons and this is what we’re looking for in a new contract going forward. It would be gross negligence for
Gettleman to offer what he had to know would be a very high 3rd round plus another pick as a rental for half a season when they had no hopes of the playoffs
Golden has been effective  
JonC : 11/19/2019 8:45 am : link
but you're talking about the least bad player on a bad defense. Got to be smart about potentially extending him.

Need to find the impact Edge talent to build around via the draft, and look at the market to find a younger upgrade for Golden who could be a foundation piece. I wouldn't view Golden as foundation. If you let him walk, you could well be worse in 2020 but it's only part of the decision calculus.
This was  
Touchdown maker : 11/19/2019 8:45 am : link
An absolutely senseless trade. End of thread.
The  
Les in TO : 11/19/2019 8:46 am : link
Giants will tag Williams and match any offer.
It might be rare to have the two way open ended  
idiotsavant : 11/19/2019 8:46 am : link
Convo between player and GM but now might be one of those moments.

If resign him asap.
We are going to MASSIVELY overpay him....  
Tesla : 11/19/2019 8:47 am : link
and two years from now we'll be talking about how much dead money we're going to have to eat to get rid of him. It's really not hard to see how this is all going to play out.
RE: RE: Williams  
crick n NC : 11/19/2019 8:48 am : link
In comment 14683410 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14683394 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Seems to be labeled an underachiever. I would think that would help nyg with cost, also risk involved that the underachiever never blossoms.



That's really interesting. But then really calls into question the value of trading picks. When I read that, I think; the Giants are gambling a guy who's a career underachiever, and underachieved an 8 game tryout, will then blossom when given a longterm contract. Unless he he really kills it over the next 6 games, which I would think would then up his value.


Christian, it's an interesting situation. Williams from my limited knowledge of him seems to be a steady player which is underachieving based on what was expected of him out of USC. However, unless I am mistaken, I believe Gettleman referred to him as a foundation type player which means they are banking on him elevating his play. We also should consider other factors that could have had a hand on him underachieving.

The very idea of putting a franchise tag  
gmenatlarge : 11/19/2019 8:48 am : link
on Williams is laughable. He is a career underachiever and the kind of player that can be easily acquired elsewhere for much cheaper or in the draft. A DL that is pretty good against the run, occasionally pressures the QB but never gets the sack is not something difficult to find, another DG failure!
Christian started a  
crick n NC : 11/19/2019 8:50 am : link
Good intentioned thread. Can we please leave absolute scenarios out and discuss logically and reasonably?
RE: There had to be a plan in place before the trade  
christian : 11/19/2019 8:52 am : link
In comment 14683408 BillT said:
Quote:
Whatever you think of DG he didn’t make the trade without the signing of Williams as part of the equation. He probably talked to his agent and had a market price in mind. There are no guarantees but I’d be surprised if this doesn’t get done.


There's a report both sides will talk contract before Thanksgiving.

If somehow Gettleman gets Williams to sign a fair deal without testing free agency in a huge dollar market, that would be great.

That would be criminal by his agent, but great for the Giants.
If it's to be lb centric draft  
idiotsavant : 11/19/2019 8:52 am : link
(hopefully safety centric as well) you gotta nail down the front now.

Over pay put Fanny's in seats.

And draft the 5th / 6th round 340 lb classic nose T to set our current 4 off and round out the one gapping w some two gapping at spots.

Imo in a front 3 you need roster at least 5 bigs on game day.
Well  
mdthedream : 11/19/2019 9:02 am : link
if they tag him and someone makes a offer they get a pick correct?
I would rather spend the money on Yannick Ngakoue  
Jay on the Island : 11/19/2019 9:05 am : link
Than extend Golden or Williams. If they also land Chase Young in the draft then the pass rush would be among the best in football.
the whole thing is such a gamble  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 9:05 am : link
Giving up picks and a big contract for a guy based on the hope that he turns into a major impact player....Williams is going to have to be very, very good for the deal to be worthwhile.
christian  
Samiam : 11/19/2019 9:06 am : link
While it would be great to sign him for a reasonable amount, that’s only a part of the story. What would make it a great trade is if he plays at a level to make the team better and that’s something he hasn’t done as a pro. We’re still paying him and giving up a high 3rd plus a high later pick. Not that this means much because of the competition but the Jets defense on the last 2 games has been pretty good especially the DL granted against the Giants and the Skins
RE: the whole thing is such a gamble  
Tesla : 11/19/2019 9:09 am : link
In comment 14683445 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Giving up picks and a big contract for a guy based on the hope that he turns into a major impact player....Williams is going to have to be very, very good for the deal to be worthwhile.


Yep. And how many underachievers finally realized their potential after getting a huge NFL contract. Approximately zero.
RE: Christian started a  
Touchdown maker : 11/19/2019 9:10 am : link
In comment 14683425 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Good intentioned thread. Can we please leave absolute scenarios out and discuss logically and reasonably?


How can you logically discuss an illogical decision. Gettlemen will now have traded a 3rd and two fourth rd picks for williams and ogletree!
RE: Christian started a  
AcidTest : 11/19/2019 9:15 am : link
In comment 14683425 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Good intentioned thread. Can we please leave absolute scenarios out and discuss logically and reasonably?


That's asking a lot for BBI.
RE: Well  
christian : 11/19/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14683440 mdthedream said:
Quote:
if they tag him and someone makes a offer they get a pick correct?


I don't see Williams as the type of player to get an offer over 18M guaranteed and a team willing to give the Giants compensation.
knowing GM  
mdc1 : 11/19/2019 9:20 am : link
he will pay him what he wants and keep him in NY like he wants. Williams has all the leverage, bad signing and to lose a 3rd round pick, yikes.
I'm not sure it's a bad signing  
idiotsavant : 11/19/2019 9:31 am : link
Because you will save $ on rookie lbs first contracts and not have to get a different free agent DT up front.

Plus. Who cares we want to see defense.
Oh no  
NikkiMac : 11/19/2019 9:33 am : link
Like the giants have been pretty successful with their 3rd round picks ! the guy is playing better than anyone else on the DL already......
RE: Oh no  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 9:36 am : link
In comment 14683480 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Like the giants have been pretty successful with their 3rd round picks ! the guy is playing better than anyone else on the DL already......


That's some fantastic logic there.
I think realistically $16mm-$18mm/year, 5 year deal  
sb from NYT Forum : 11/19/2019 9:55 am : link
....structured so cap-friendly for 2020. Let’s say $85 million with $45 million guaranteed. Small salary first year with incentives with salaries backloaded.

I’ll leave it to the experts to decide whether that’s worth it for a DL with 17 career sacks.
Agree with Samiam.  
idinkido : 11/19/2019 10:17 am : link
Williams wants to stay in the New York area and quite likely that an understanding was reached with his agent.
I'm hoping there were some kind of conversations with  
Blue21 : 11/19/2019 10:17 am : link
Williams and his agent before the trade that makes them feel comfortable they can retain him for the price they may have already agreed upon.
RE: I think realistically $16mm-$18mm/year, 5 year deal  
AdamBrag : 11/19/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14683508 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
....structured so cap-friendly for 2020. Let’s say $85 million with $45 million guaranteed. Small salary first year with incentives with salaries backloaded.

I’ll leave it to the experts to decide whether that’s worth it for a DL with 17 career sacks.


Paying top 5 money for the position would obviously be terrible. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility though.
RE: Agree with Samiam.  
AdamBrag : 11/19/2019 10:20 am : link
In comment 14683533 idinkido said:
Quote:
Williams wants to stay in the New York area and quite likely that an understanding was reached with his agent.


Why wouldn't they just sign him to an extension then?
RE: RE: Agree with Samiam.  
rsjem1979 : 11/19/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14683540 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
In comment 14683533 idinkido said:


Quote:


Williams wants to stay in the New York area and quite likely that an understanding was reached with his agent.



Why wouldn't they just sign him to an extension then?


Because his agent isn't a moron who's going to sign a deal below market value without reviewing all the options.

That's the flaw in any defense of the trade. It relies on the premise that Williams can be extended below market value before he's either tagged or able to negotiate with 31 other teams.

Williams has all of the leverage here. Gettleman has none.
why?  
richinpa : 11/19/2019 10:38 am : link

1. No leverage for the Giants.

2. Gave up a 3rd and 4th. sometimes they pan out , sometimes they don't but you also have to figure in now what he will get paid

3. Agree they have discussed a contract value/term before doing this OR DG is a total moron. And are the owners

4. With coaching on the D being up in the air in the fans minds at least, this is a huge mistake

Sometimes you make big mistakes and have to admit it, move on.
Draft Capital isn't as huge a miss as draft captial plus a long term deal for 50M.

See how he plays the next few games. Dont give a contract before EOY and he is healthy if your giving one.

I prefer DG admits he is a Dinosaur and move on. I prefer the kid too from JAX eventhought its a 4-3....if we can get him
everything  
Enzo : 11/19/2019 10:40 am : link
stated in the original post outlines why teams not headed to the playoffs typically don't (or never) make trades like this.
RE: I suppose it's in his interests  
Josh in the City : 11/19/2019 10:45 am : link
In comment 14683389 JonC said:
Quote:
if he wants to stay with NYG. Beyond that, their ability to tag him is their only control.

I personally dislike the idea of paying him edge rusher dollars, but hope they know better than me.

I think they've proven that they do not.
First, you can only hope that Gettlemen has a plan in place  
Rjanyg : 11/19/2019 10:52 am : link
Our 3rd round pick is going to be a top 70 pick so IMO regardless of whether we re-sign Williams or not, the Jets did well.

That said, I think Williams is a good player and is scheme diverse. I think the fact that he is only 25 years old in the prime of his career makes signing him to a 5 year deal a good idea.

He should be kept and as some said if they are truly going to start negotiations prior to Thanksgiving then all the better.

As for -re-signing Golden, I agree that I would rather get Ngonkoue and possibly draft Young.

We need to have a dominant D Line once and for all.

Could you imagine this?

Young, Williams, Tomlinson, Lawrence, Yannick

That is what I am hoping DG is planning on.
This is a rare situation where a franchise tag is the best option  
Eric on Li : 11/19/2019 11:05 am : link
unlike most tag recipients the team hasn't had 4-5 years to evaluate Williams in their system. They have a half a season and an unimportant portion of the offseason.

Additionally the defense may be (likely to be?) under new leadership and a new scheme. In fact the entire coaching staff could be different.

Add in that the player himself has not completely established his value yet, and it would seem like an obvious decision to want to see more of him.

Lastly since they project to have an abundance of cap room this offseason, the inflated value for 1 year seems like a worthwhile investment vs. putting money on future caps where they will likely not have as much flexibility. At least not until they know for sure whether or not Williams can be a core player on a successful defense.

It may even make sense to tag him 2 years in a row and then let him walk to recoup a conditional pick.
No one says Williams isn't a good player  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:05 am : link
But is he good enough to trade two picks for him AND sign him to a big-money contract? That's what I am highly skeptical about.
Giants have historically been able to re-sign who they wanted to keep  
Bob in Newburgh : 11/19/2019 11:13 am : link
Not necessarily without a lot of public angst, but eventually it got done. And they have the leverage of using the franchise tag if they have to.

As long as one of the other owners does not go crazy, Giants will pay market value.

Please don't argue Landon Collins. The more you watch, the more you are convinced that the Giants did not want to keep him. In a passing league, he stinks.
Picks  
WillVAB : 11/19/2019 1:32 pm : link
People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.

The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.

The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.

RE: Picks  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14683795 WillVAB said:
Quote:
People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.


You can go get him in free agency too, and nothing Leonard Williams has done in his NFL career to date would indicate that he's worth such a price. This is all based on projection for a guy in his fifth professional season.
RE: Picks  
christian : 11/19/2019 1:37 pm : link
In comment 14683795 WillVAB said:
Quote:
People are so hung up on the picks. If you think he can be a core player you go get him.

The Jets were actively shopping LW. If the Giants didn’t trade for him, someone else would have. Then that team would have the inside track on extending him or franchising him if needed.

The Giants aren’t going to sign him to a “fair” deal. They’re going to have to overpay, the question is how much. Ultimately it won’t matter if he plays to his potential.


What does overpay mean?
For those of you willing to think franchise tag  
chuckydee9 : 11/19/2019 1:54 pm : link
is he really playing like a DE who is a game changer? like a top 10-12 DE? thats the standard you would like to apply before putting a franchise tag on a player. especially at a premium position. Its estimated that franchise tag will cost us 19.3M+.. I'm sorry but LW's play doesn't warrant that even if you inflate for the market..
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