Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

For the, be patient, it takes time crowd

UberAlias : 11/19/2019 9:10 am
Letís make a distinction here. It takes time to get build a foundation where the team is a legitimate contender, I think we all agree. Thatís not the issue here. The issue is that what SHOULDNíT take years and years is raising the team out the basement. Making enough improvements that you arenít among the 2, 3, or 4 worst teams in the league. Most teams will hit there for a year, often due to injuries. Right now, we can safely say there are two teams worse than us ĖThe Bengals and the Skins, thatís it. Others seem to be at a similar level, but those are the only two who are comfortably worse. The Oakland Raiders, for example, seemed to be coming from a similar situation to us. They traded away multiple of their top players in exchange for picks. Where are they now? They have a winning record and are in the mix in division race. Why wasnít all this time needed for them to improve?

Regarding the talent, though I do agree, it feels like drafts have improved, Iím going to take a wait and see on this. Truth is, this is the same spot we were in when this group took over, and itís the same culprits Ėthe Oline and defense. Two pick rich drafts and FA periods in, there has been opportunities to add talent and begin building a foundation. Regarding FA, JRís drafts were horrible, but he did make some impactful acquisitions in FA and probably grades higher in this area than DG has at this point. A major contributing factor to why we remain where we are is that despite all the hog molly talk, the strategy for addressing the teamís biggest need -Oline- has been largely based on FA acquisitions, which have not panned out. Consequently, the Oline still requires much work requiring all of starter talent, youth, and depth. Defense wise Ėwhere are the playmakers? Dallas rebuilt their defense over the past couple drafts and has managed to add players who make plays for them. Our defensive ďtalentĒ has been largely invisible when it comes to making impact plays. Say what you want, but though players do need time to develop to a point of consistency, legit talent usually shows signs of playmaking ability early.

All that said, I would not be shocked to see this team finish stronger than people believe. No real reason for this, just a hunch. What it comes to, in my eyes is, we have six games to prove that the arrow is pointing up. That was the mission from the start Ėthrough ten games, we simply havenít shown that. Iíll reserve judgement to see what happens down the stretch, but this is NOT a time for patience. The call is for urgency.
I've been in that crowd  
81_Great_Dane : 11/19/2019 9:13 am : link
but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.
I basically agree with this...  
Chris684 : 11/19/2019 9:13 am : link
I thought this set up nicely for a 7-9 win season which would have been perfectly acceptable. Maybe pick off one or a couple of the Dallas/Philly games along the way, but generally win the games you're supposed to win.

This season turned on the Arizona game. That was when any path to minimum 7 wins went bye bye.
Itís not just the players itís the poor coaching staff  
Jay on the Island : 11/19/2019 9:19 am : link
Nobody predicted the Raiders to have a winning record this season but they are playing well. Jon Gruden is the front runner for coach of the year IMO. Itís critical that the Giants hire a good new staff.
Coaching matters, plain and simple  
Ben in Tampa : 11/19/2019 9:23 am : link
The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around
The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around
The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around
The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around
The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt
The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated


The Giants have stunk for YEARS are are getting worse. Shurmur is a loser.
The failure of the OL has been key  
BillT : 11/19/2019 9:23 am : link
It was reasonable to look at the OL before the season and think it could be somewhere near average. If it had been I think weíd be ok with how things are going. But now with Solder and Halapio as failures and Hernandezís stagnation and the failure of Remners as a stop gap we are nowhere. Itís hard to see a path forward from here.

Also, the secondary, where we spent a lot of draft and trade capital, is full of first year players. They are mostly not ready to really contribute yet and we donít know if they will. Another place where we have unknowns.
Ditch the whole WCO pretense  
idiotsavant : 11/19/2019 9:27 am : link
. Thats a start.
there are multiple views  
fkap : 11/19/2019 9:28 am : link
which each have some validity.

some would say DG's first year was half assed under the mistaken view he could fix things on the fly. When that proved false, he had to start over with a full tear down, making this the defacto year one of a rebuild.

Others say it's the coaching, and with a good coach, there would be more W's.

Others say a rookie QB is to blame.

Others point to a lack of talent.

It's a nasty combination of a lot of things.

Although I do want a coaching shakeup, but I'd rather not go the Raider model of changing coaches as often as one changes underwear.
We have enough talent to be at least mediocre.  
penkap75 : 11/19/2019 9:35 am : link
But we are not even mediocre, we are laughing stock bottom barrel.

Fuck this coaching staff and being patient.
RE: Coaching matters, plain and simple  
Chris684 : 11/19/2019 9:37 am : link
In comment 14683466 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around
The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around
The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around
The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around
The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt
The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated


The Giants have stunk for YEARS are are getting worse. Shurmur is a loser.


Havenít looked at it like this but they are all fair points.
Quality of Suckitude doesn't matter...  
x meadowlander : 11/19/2019 9:43 am : link
...what matters is that all the pieces are there when the team gells, that there are no glaring holes on the roster, that there are impact players on both sides, that the bench is deep.

1983 disagrees with the OP. 3 years after 1983, Parcells hoisted the Lombardi.


What matters is not finishing in the middle of the pack, it's building properly and when horrible seasons come, MAKING BANK on the resulting draft position.

Giants have Carter, Hill, Hernandez and Barkley from 18', Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Ximinez, Love, Connelly, Slayton, Ballentine from this seasons draft.

Give me another draft like either of those and I'll show you 7-9 or 9-7. Give me two drafts like that and I'll show you 10-12 wins and deep playoffs.
If Iím remembering correctly, DG was our Pro Personnel guy when we  
yatqb : 11/19/2019 9:43 am : link
brought in Pierce, McKenzie and Plax. Things fell perfectly that offseason. We had a very solid team with only 3 significant needs: RT, MLB and WR. And those guys were available. A perfect scenario.

Nothing like that exists now, or when DG took the team over. If Orlando Pace had been available heíd have tried to land him. Instead he signed the best available LT, but a guy who hasnít played as well with us as in prior years.

And we sure needed more than 3 playersówe were devoid of talent.
This team is just spinning its wheels  
gmenatlarge : 11/19/2019 9:45 am : link
same shit, over and over,
lousy OL-no dependable run game, poor pass pro
lousy DL-no pass rush when needed,
invisible LB- poor against run and pass
lousy secondary- receivers running wide open

It all adds up to 2-14, maybe 3-13 that doesn't look like any kind of rebuilding to me!
RE: We have enough talent to be at least mediocre.  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14683481 penkap75 said:
Quote:
But we are not even mediocre, we are laughing stock bottom barrel.

Fuck this coaching staff and being patient.


No, they really don't have enough talent for that. Between the OL, WRs, LBs, DEs, and the secondary, there are a LOT of players starting for the Giants who would be hard-pressed to even make a roster of a winning team.
2 more years guys.  
The_Boss : 11/19/2019 9:46 am : link
I promise itíll all be worth it!

-DG
At then end of the day, what other choice do you have other than....  
Britt in VA : 11/19/2019 9:47 am : link
to be patient?

Honestly, you have two choices. Be patient, or find something else to do. In reality, there isn't much else that can be done for fans.
Gettleman's  
bigbluehoya : 11/19/2019 9:48 am : link
diagnosis of the state of the roster upon his hiring was so grossly inaccurate that it's amazing to me that an owner would leave the keys with him for the upcoming offseason of (another) Top 5 pick and $100M+ of walking around money.
Agree with OP  
rocco8112 : 11/19/2019 9:51 am : link
that building and coaching a team up so that it is no longer in the debate for worst in the league should not take a very long time.

Just a different take:  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 9:55 am : link
-The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around - the Raiders had one winning season and one playoff appearance in the past 16 years. It took them 10 head coaches and 3 GMs to get to where they are now. They haven't won a Super Bowl since 1983.

-The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around - the 49ers haven't had a winning season in 5 years. In that time frame they have been through 4 coaches. Shanahan was 10-22 prior to this year. This is his 3rd year as HC.

-The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around - the Colts have had 2 losing seasons since 2002. They made the playoffs 13 times in the time frame and won the Super Bowl in 2009 and made the AFC championship in 2014. Not sure they were spiraling. Although - I will say Reich has done a nice job.

-The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around. The Bills have 3 winning seasons the last 19 years. They have made playoffs once during that span. They have been through 10 head coaches during that span. They have never won a Super Bowl. Prior to this year McDermott is 15-17.

-The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt. - I don't get the Titans. What a mediocre franchise. Vrabel was 9-7 last year. Mike Mularkey was the HC before him for two years. Both years he went 9-7. Vrabel is 5-5 this year. They have never won a Super Bowl.

The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated - Since 2002 the Dolphins have made the playoffs twice and have 5 winning seasons. They have had 9 HC during that span.


The Giants have stunk for YEARS are are getting worse. Shurmur is a loser. Since 2005 the Giants have 5 losing seasons. All of them have come since 2013. During that time period the Giants have had 3 HC. They have made the playoffs 6 times and won 2 Super Bowls during that time period.

I'm all for comparing frachises - I think that adds some perspective to a good ol fashion bitch fest.
I have a similar feeling that somehow they will finish out strong  
Dinger : 11/19/2019 9:56 am : link
I think its because the talent IS there and, really, all they've been missing is some semblance of defense to win a game or two here or there. I think they play the eagles close and probably get blown out by the packers, but the rest could be wins and I think that will be enough for Shurmur to stick around, unfortunately, in my opinion.
Little bill  
thrunthrublue : 11/19/2019 9:57 am : link
Drafts 31 or 32 every year, and is always in the playoffs. The best scouting, coaching, managing organization every created. Shurmur, is too incompetent to be in charge of parking at foxboro. Stop with the excuses 17 and 48 is what his record says it is.
We  
AcidTest : 11/19/2019 10:02 am : link
don't stink because we have problems. We stink because we don't fix them, despite expending a huge amount of money, draft picks, and other resources to try and do so. The OL is a prime example. All teams have lean years and stretches. But good teams fix their problems quickly.
RE: I've been in that crowd  
Johnny5 : 11/19/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14683454 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.

I agree with this.
Uber's opening post has me thinking...  
FranknWeezer : 11/19/2019 10:06 am : link
...Mara got out-owned by this guy:

The Raiders are a perfect example  
PatersonPlank : 11/19/2019 10:06 am : link
They were crap. Bring in a proven winner in Gruden and bang, within maybe 1 year they are competitive. There are lots of talented players in the NFL, its about more than talent.

Shurmur sucks. He plays his one scheme regardless of the players and talent he has. Plus he offer zero motivation, and his in game adjustments don't exist.
Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
robbieballs2003 : 11/19/2019 10:07 am : link
been in the basement long? Ok.

What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.
RE: RE: I've been in that crowd  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14683515 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14683454 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.


I agree with this.
\

So ... do you think the fine folks in SF felt the same way about Kyle Shanahan going into this year? After all, the 49ers were 10-22 under excellent coaching prowess the two years prior.
I know we want to group in 9 years of losing....  
George from PA : 11/19/2019 10:09 am : link
But organization made several mistakes

Removing Coughlin but Not Reese and Ross.

McAdoo was not the answer

Removing Reese and Ross....

I felt Dave Gettleman needed 3 years

We are in our 2nd if 3

Also, totally sucking, losing, winning like Oakland, winning like Seattle, and winning like NE.

We are somewhere in the totally sucking and losing catagory...

But do we really want winning like Oakland? They are not beating good teams.....not sure they have a longterm answer at QB....

the minimum i want....is winning with sone hope of winning Super Bowl.

Never expect to see NE again....but give me Seattle winning....can beat anyone...fun to watch...

RE: Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 10:10 am : link
In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.


I expect him not to hit like a pitcher, but he hasn't been able to pull that off yet.
RE: Coaching matters, plain and simple  
allstarjim : 11/19/2019 10:16 am : link
In comment 14683466 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around
The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around
The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around
The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around
The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt
The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated


The Giants have stunk for YEARS are are getting worse. Shurmur is a loser.


None of those teams are breaking in a rookie QB or trying to rebuild from a bottom 2 roster, except the Dolphins who have an equal number of wins.
This this and THIS  
MtDizzle : 11/19/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14683466 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around
The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around
The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around
The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around
The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt
The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated


The Giants have stunk for YEARS are are getting worse. Shurmur is a loser.
All of those teams have done it  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 10:20 am : link
multiple times in the not-so-distant past.

In my opinion, every time you fire a coach AND get a new QB at the same time (or near each other), you're resetting the clock.
RE: This team is just spinning its wheels  
dlauster : 11/19/2019 10:40 am : link
In comment 14683493 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
same shit, over and over,
lousy OL-no dependable run game, poor pass pro
lousy DL-no pass rush when needed,
invisible LB- poor against run and pass
lousy secondary- receivers running wide open

It all adds up to 2-14, maybe 3-13 that doesn't look like any kind of rebuilding to me!


THIS!
RE: Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
UberAlias : 11/19/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
been in the basement long? Ok.

What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.
Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.
Noway  
Giants : 11/19/2019 10:46 am : link
do I think it should have taken this long to rebuild the team. I do think people need to give DG more time almost all these years were under Reese and not DG. Reese did not just leave this team in bad shape. It was in need of a total rebuild. People forget during Reese's time comparing his picks against other GM during the same time. Reese had the lowest number of players making it in the NFL. This is including players who were release by the team that drafted them. Then went on to making another team. Reese had the least amount players who endup in the NFL. I believe fans need to give DG at least one more off season. Next season with reasonable health I would expect to see at least 8-8 season or better.
No one really knows what the Giants plan was  
Rudy5757 : 11/19/2019 10:46 am : link
There are 2 sides to this, the internal side and the public side. The internal side could have always been on the rebuild plan of multiple years. Try to win a few with Eli and maybe we get lucky.

What they say publicly is a different story. They still have to sell tickets and try to keep fans happy. Not one team will tell it like it is. we are going to really suck this year but next year we should be improved because we will have a Top pick again and lots of money to spend in FA.

Why would fans pay to go to the games if they were told the product would suck? DG is a smart man, he knows the talent on this team better than anyone. This is not a playoff roster. We were saddled with dead money and a lot of other issues when DG arrived. We traded away aging overpriced vets that were not part of the long term solution. They resigned OBJ I believe thinking he was going to be a long term piece but he was a head case and the relationship was broken so we traded him for what seems like a pretty good deal based on the current info.

We had a few bad FA misses but none are really going to hurt moving forward, they can be cleared off the books and we can now start to move forward. Shurmur to this point has not shown to be a good coach but most coaches look terrible with terrible talent. Coughlin looked terrible his last few years, he had nothing to work with. This roster either has a rookie or 1st year player or a JAG for the most part. Any talent on O has mainly been injured and we have never played with our starting 11. On D, we have no pass rush and no LBs. We are playing with in season pickups at LB.

DG has made mistakes but he also seems to have some big hits. If Jones continues to build on his success so far he may be a huge win. Getting a franchise QB is the most important piece of the puzzle. i dont agree with everything he does but at least he makes changes when things dont go right. i think 1 more year with the current staff needs to happen so we can stabilize the team. With another high pick and FA money year 3 should be a playoff contender.

Time to build a contender  
UberAlias : 11/19/2019 10:47 am : link
Or time to just not be a pathetic mess among the worst in the league? There's a difference.
RE: Just a different take:  
DonQuixote : 11/19/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14683507 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
-The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around - the Raiders had one winning season and one playoff appearance in the past 16 years. It took them 10 head coaches and 3 GMs to get to where they are now. They haven't won a Super Bowl since 1983.

-The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around - the 49ers haven't had a winning season in 5 years. In that time frame they have been through 4 coaches. Shanahan was 10-22 prior to this year. This is his 3rd year as HC.

-The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around - the Colts have had 2 losing seasons since 2002. They made the playoffs 13 times in the time frame and won the Super Bowl in 2009 and made the AFC championship in 2014. Not sure they were spiraling. Although - I will say Reich has done a nice job.

-The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around. The Bills have 3 winning seasons the last 19 years. They have made playoffs once during that span. They have been through 10 head coaches during that span. They have never won a Super Bowl. Prior to this year McDermott is 15-17.

-The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt. - I don't get the Titans. What a mediocre franchise. Vrabel was 9-7 last year. Mike Mularkey was the HC before him for two years. Both years he went 9-7. Vrabel is 5-5 this year. They have never won a Super Bowl.

The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated - Since 2002 the Dolphins have made the playoffs twice and have 5 winning seasons. They have had 9 HC during that span.


The Giants have stunk for YEARS are are getting worse. Shurmur is a loser. Since 2005 the Giants have 5 losing seasons. All of them have come since 2013. During that time period the Giants have had 3 HC. They have made the playoffs 6 times and won 2 Super Bowls during that time period.

I'm all for comparing frachises - I think that adds some perspective to a good ol fashion bitch fest.


This is a good post. You don't need to be a fan of the current organization or coaching to have a little perspective
If you have the right people  
UberAlias : 11/19/2019 10:53 am : link
It should not take you multiples of years to reach a point where you are no longer among the lowest teams in the league. If it does, there is legitimate reason for concern.
RE: No one really knows what the Giants plan was  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14683581 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
With another high pick and FA money year 3 should be a playoff contender.


Hmmmm....I remember quite a few people (not you, I'm making a general statement here) predicting playoffs before last season - remember the talk of the "Eli Revenge Tour"?

And then there were more than a few people talking about contending for the playoffs this year. Not just before the season but when they were 2-2.

Anything can happen, but I will be absolutely stunned if this team isn't straight garbage again next year.
RE: Quality of Suckitude doesn't matter...  
Lambuth_Special : 11/19/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14683490 x meadowlander said:
Quote:

Giants have Carter, Hill, Hernandez and Barkley from 18', Jones, Lawrence, Baker, Ximinez, Love, Connelly, Slayton, Ballentine from this seasons draft.


More than half the guys you listed here haven't proven to be even average NFL rotational players yet.
RE: RE: Coaching matters, plain and simple  
BillT : 11/19/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14683530 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14683466 Ben in Tampa said:


Quote:


The Raiders were a joke, Gruden has turned it around
The 49ers were a joke, Shanahan has turned it around
The Colts were spiraling, Reich turned it around
The Bills stunk for 2 decades, McDermott is turning it around
The Titans have a bad roster, Vrabel is keeping them in the hunt
The Dolphins are openly tanking, Flores is keeping that team motivated

None of those teams are breaking in a rookie QB or trying to rebuild from a bottom 2 roster, except the Dolphins who have an equal number of wins.

This is what folks want to ignore and what was mentioned in the "the current state of neurosis on BBI" OP. All those teams had at least some core players in place before their current regimes took over. The Giants had OBJ.
I think many of you BBI folk  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 10:59 am : link
would make for great front runners.
Here's a list of teams that have won MORE Super Bowls than the Giants in the past 11 years:
The Patriots
Here's a list of teams that have played in MORE Super Bowls than the Giants the past 11 years:
The Patriots


RE: I think many of you BBI folk  
Lambuth_Special : 11/19/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14683596 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
would make for great front runners.
Here's a list of teams that have won MORE Super Bowls than the Giants in the past 11 years:
The Patriots
Here's a list of teams that have played in MORE Super Bowls than the Giants the past 11 years:
The Patriots



Change that to seven years and run another calculation please.
RE: I think many of you BBI folk  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14683596 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
would make for great front runners.
Here's a list of teams that have won MORE Super Bowls than the Giants in the past 11 years:
The Patriots
Here's a list of teams that have played in MORE Super Bowls than the Giants the past 11 years:
The Patriots



The Giants made the playoffs twice in those 11 years. That the 2011 caught fire in the playoffs and won a fluke championship doesn't negate the fact that the organization, as a whole, has been a miserable failure for a decade.
RE: I think many of you BBI folk  
djstat : 11/19/2019 11:03 am : link
In comment 14683596 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
would make for great front runners.
Here's a list of teams that have won MORE Super Bowls than the Giants in the past 11 years:
The Patriots
Here's a list of teams that have played in MORE Super Bowls than the Giants the past 11 years:
The Patriots

But since 2011 this team has been to the playoffs once and has been dreadful in 2013, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019.

Along with not very good in 2012 and 2014. Shurmer has not shown this team on the upswing. He seems clueless in how to use Barkley. Remember when Chip Kelly Signed Demarco Murray in Filthy? He used Murray in such a bizarre way. Shurmer is doing the same thing with Barkley. Remember who Chip Kelly's OC was? Pat Shurmer.
Three times  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:03 am : link
Forgot they made the playoffs in 2016 (granted, that's pretty easy to do).
I'm getting sick & F'ing tired of 'Be patient crowd.'  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2019 11:04 am : link
We've been a loser franchise since October 2012, outside of one blip in '16. Enough of this garbage.
RE: I think many of you BBI folk  
rsjem1979 : 11/19/2019 11:06 am : link
In comment 14683596 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
would make for great front runners.
Here's a list of teams that have won MORE Super Bowls than the Giants in the past 11 years:
The Patriots
Here's a list of teams that have played in MORE Super Bowls than the Giants the past 11 years:
The Patriots



Here's a list of teams with fewer wins than the Giants since 2012:

Raiders, Bucs, Jaguars, Jets, Browns

Here's the list since 2017:

None.

RE: I'm getting sick & F'ing tired of 'Be patient crowd.'  
Britt in VA : 11/19/2019 11:06 am : link
In comment 14683607 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
We've been a loser franchise since October 2012, outside of one blip in '16. Enough of this garbage.


Right! Rabble Rabble Rabble! Now what?
Nah, you're right Britt  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:08 am : link
Everyone should be damned appreciative of the horrific teams the Giants have been fielding for our viewing pleasure. Such a bunch of ingrates we are for expecting to not be one of the laughingstocks of football.
Britt, I don't know what.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/19/2019 11:08 am : link
I don't claim to be an expert. I think you start getting rid of Shurmur, who will never lead us anywhere. I'm just frustrated that I'm watching meaningless football AGAIN before Thanksgiving. I'm already resigned to wasting 3 hours of my life Sunday watching us make Trubisky or Daniel look like Sid Luckman vs. this defense.
Did I say that?  
Britt in VA : 11/19/2019 11:08 am : link
?
RE: RE: Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14683577 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


been in the basement long? Ok.

What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.

Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.


SF Kyle Shanahan took over after the 2016 season.
In 2017 the 9ers were 6-10
In 2018 the 9ers were 4-12
John Lynch took over the same year.

Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?
RE: RE: RE: Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14683618 Dnew15 said:
Quote:

Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?


Because Pat Shurmur is a proven loser with two separate teams, for one thing. For another thing, Mr. Magoo's moves have actually managed to make the team worse than the one he inherited.
RE: RE: RE: I've been in that crowd  
Johnny5 : 11/19/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14683522 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14683515 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


In comment 14683454 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.


I agree with this.

\

So ... do you think the fine folks in SF felt the same way about Kyle Shanahan going into this year? After all, the 49ers were 10-22 under excellent coaching prowess the two years prior.

Dnew, I am not arrogant enough to think I am 100% right. I will root wholeheartedly for Shurmur to prove me wrong, and honestly that's the best case scenario. But right now I am very down on this staff.
It's kind of funny  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:15 am : link
A lot of the Gettleman defenders put all the blame on Shurmur, but there are a few people like this guy who think they're both being unfairly maligned.

I guess those are the people who still blame Jerry Reese for everything under the sun two years after he was fired.
RE: Uber's opening post has me thinking...  
montanagiant : 11/19/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14683519 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
...Mara got out-owned by this guy:


How could anyone, let alone someone as rich as this clown, think that a jughead hairstyle looks good?
I was part of the crowd that said this is all about 2020  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/19/2019 11:16 am : link
I posted how dead cap affects team performance on the football field and was able to explain why there were a few outliers amongst the group (namely All Pro QB play, elite offensive line, and the Bills who had an all time statistical anomoly of a season.)

I knew we were going to suck this year unless we pulled a Bills. There were about 20 or so teams of the last five years that hit the parameters of were we were at so I didn't think that was a good bet.

I thought there were few circumstances that I wouldnt want to give Shurmur a chance in 2020, but this guy is just a born loser. Unforgiveable mistakes for a guy that isn't a brillian innovative football mind. Sean Payton and Andy Reid he is not.

I'm sure with a young core, a bright spot at QB, and an influx of talent next year we'll probably make the playoffs, but Shurmur has shown me enough that that is his ceiling.

My nightmare scenario is we make the playoffs on DJ's rookie deal 2 outta the next 3 years in, put the heat on him to break through the glass ceiling once DJ signs his second contract and as we slowly lose the competitive advantage from that contract and Saquon ages losing out at our best chance for a Superbowl in the next 15 years unless DJ turns into an elite QB.

And the worst part is, I know once we are competitive again, as the Giants being the one thing I'm completely irrational about, I'll talk myself into Shurmur with a hey you never know type attitude as we become a winner again.
RE: It's kind of funny  
Johnny5 : 11/19/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14683626 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
A lot of the Gettleman defenders put all the blame on Shurmur, but there are a few people like this guy who think they're both being unfairly maligned.

I guess those are the people who still blame Jerry Reese for everything under the sun two years after he was fired.

To be fair, Jerry Reese is a huge reason we are where we are right now. Not sure how anyone would deny that. Not saying you are.
RE: RE: Uber's opening post has me thinking...  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14683627 montanagiant said:
Quote:
How could anyone, let alone someone as rich as this clown, think that a jughead hairstyle looks good?


And he drives like 300 miles to get it, too.
Yes, Reese did them no favors  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:19 am : link
But this is Gettleman's roster. He's the one who selected almost every man on the roster at this point. He put this appalling OL together and claimed he had fixed it.
RE: Yes, Reese did them no favors  
Britt in VA : 11/19/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14683633 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But this is Gettleman's roster. He's the one who selected almost every man on the roster at this point. He put this appalling OL together and claimed he had fixed it.


That he had to practically turn over the entire 53 man roster in under two seasons is the problem.
RE: It's kind of funny  
Jay on the Island : 11/19/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14683626 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
A lot of the Gettleman defenders put all the blame on Shurmur, but there are a few people like this guy who think they're both being unfairly maligned.

I guess those are the people who still blame Jerry Reese for everything under the sun two years after he was fired.

I guess you're in the group that expected the Giants to rebuild the entire roster in two offseasons which included finding the next franchise QB. Don't forget about the limited cap room Gettleman had to work with due to Reese.

Gettleman is not the main problem. The coaching staff needs to be replaced. I would not be opposed to Gettleman being replaced but I think he deserves one more season before making that decision.
No one knows what a re-build looks like until...  
M.S. : 11/19/2019 11:22 am : link

...a team actually turns their losing ways into winning ways.

A re-build, in short, is only known in retrospect.

And, so far, who the hell knows what direction the Giants are headed and whether or not their re-build is truly underway?
RE: RE: Yes, Reese did them no favors  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14683634 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14683633 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


But this is Gettleman's roster. He's the one who selected almost every man on the roster at this point. He put this appalling OL together and claimed he had fixed it.



That he had to practically turn over the entire 53 man roster in under two seasons is the problem.


And he's done a real bang-up fucking job of it, hasn't he?

Maybe jettisoning Richburg and Kennard wasn't such a great idea either, huh?
I m not certain  
joeinpa : 11/19/2019 11:27 am : link
What alternative fans have if they want to keep following the team they have other than to be patient

I agree to be bad for this amount of time is not the norm for a good organization.

Some here have stopped watching or investing the energy they used to while rooting for this team.

I wonít do either of those, so I just keep hoping for the tide to turn, I guess patiently, donít see what else as a fan who wants to stay invested can do
RE: Yes, Reese did them no favors  
Jay on the Island : 11/19/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14683633 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But this is Gettleman's roster. He's the one who selected almost every man on the roster at this point. He put this appalling OL together and claimed he had fixed it.

I think Hal Hunter is a big reason why the line has been so disappointing. Why Shurmur hired a guy who was the OL coach for a Colts team that allowed over 60 sacks is beyond me. I am not suggesting that Solder and Remmers are still solid players. Sy mentioned how some of Solder's struggles come from poor technique.

Will Hernandez has not shown any improvement which is a big surprise being that guards usually show their most improvement from year one to two. Zeitler gets a pass because he's been playing with an injured shoulder all season.

I honestly believe that if the Giants sign Jack Conklin and a solid center while also adding a LT in round 1 or 2 the line will still play below expectations due to Hal Hunter.

The Giants will have an opportunity to land a great OL coach in Bill Callahan this offseason. They better take advantage of that opportunity.
Richburg and Kennard  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 11:28 am : link
weren't working here. I really do think our coaching is bottom 2 or 3 in the league and its very negatively skewing everything else.

I don't know what strings are attached to firing Shurmur and his full staff, but unless that changes I don't think what any GM does is going to move the needle enough to notice. Its inexcusable that this many players either flatline or regress.
Yeh it isn't just Shurmur either, how does fucking Hal Hunter  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/19/2019 11:32 am : link
still have a job. We pretty much hired him last year because there were no other candidates and we kept him why? The offensive line playing okay in the backhalf of 2018 was the worst thing that could have happened. But I'm sure that was more an effect of Eli calling protections, Jamon Brown not having Hal's shitty coaching, and Saquon Barkley fixing a lot of ills. Plus playing some dead teams.
Greg  
Jay on the Island : 11/19/2019 11:33 am : link
If Gettleman gave Richburg a 5 year $47.5 million dollar contract you would have blasted him. Richburg struggled the final two season with the Giants. Let's also not forget that he wasn't good for SF last season. He's been better this year but he's surrounded by some excellent players.

Kennard was a mistake to let go especially when they chose to sign Kareem Martin instead. I would put much of the blame for that decision on Bettcher.
Neither Richburg nor Kennard  
JonC : 11/19/2019 11:35 am : link
were part of the future for NYG, better to let them go and keep your wallet shut.
I guess this is the point in the discussion  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:36 am : link
where someone chimes in to absolve Dave Gettleman of any responsbility for the sorryass coaching staff. "It wasn't our beloved DG! It was that damned John Mara!"

He's well on his way to getting reaching the exalted Coughlin status where nothing is ever his fault, but anything that goes well is 100% due to him.
Thank god fans have spoken!  
exiled : 11/19/2019 11:36 am : link
The teamóthe whole organizationóhas been holding back trying to please the Ďbe patientí crowd. Finally, we can watch some wins now that they know thereís a sense of urgency.
RE: Neither Richburg nor Kennard  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14683655 JonC said:
Quote:
were part of the future for NYG, better to let them go and keep your wallet shut.


I guess I'm confused as to why those guys weren't part of the future but dreck like Solder and Ogletree were.
I'm Confused  
Lambuth_Special : 11/19/2019 11:37 am : link
Is the struggle of this team due to Reese's mess, or was the team expected to compete in 2018? Because I sure remember many people - including our GM - being very strident about the team's chances in 2018, a team that also included a fair amount of Reese holdovers.
RE: RE: Neither Richburg nor Kennard  
JonC : 11/19/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14683658 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683655 JonC said:


Quote:


were part of the future for NYG, better to let them go and keep your wallet shut.



I guess I'm confused as to why those guys weren't part of the future but dreck like Solder and Ogletree were.


The former were average or less NFL players who were drafted by the previous regime, and decided to be passed over for second NFL contracts. Kennard looks like a 4-3 SAM and not scheme diverse. Richburg was small and often over powered and injured. The latter were proven veterans who had played at reasonably high levels in the NFL. Solder also had some connection to the Giants from the past that appears to have been intact.

That is not to say the latter were worth the price DG paid for them. I think it was clear then it was a big roll of the dice, though I'm sure DG would say otherwise. To this point, they look like declining players who cashed in on us.
I think there's plenty that DG can do better  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 11:45 am : link
but the two extreme's are both wrong. He isn't horrible and he isn't the greatest. He's somewhere in the middle and its hard to gauge where considering I don't know the extent of Mara's involvement (I have my opinions on this) and Shurmur is just awful at his job.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I've been in that crowd  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14683622 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14683522 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14683515 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


In comment 14683454 81_Great_Dane said:


Quote:


but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.


I agree with this.

\

So ... do you think the fine folks in SF felt the same way about Kyle Shanahan going into this year? After all, the 49ers were 10-22 under excellent coaching prowess the two years prior.


Dnew, I am not arrogant enough to think I am 100% right. I will root wholeheartedly for Shurmur to prove me wrong, and honestly that's the best case scenario. But right now I am very down on this staff.


I think I'm right there with you - I like the way you put it.

I would just warn some of the BBI faithful that leaning on examples like K. Shanahan can be fools gold. Shoot - everyone thinks MacAdoo was an idiot and he took a team to the playoffs.

It takes a long time to build a consistent, perennial winner. The Giants had that for a period of time under Eli and TC. There are franchises that go decades with out the kind of success the Giants had in the not-so-distant past.

I've been harping on the idea that the NFL is a year-to-year league is a myth..and I still believe that to be true. The Giants have been bad for awhile now. And it seems insufferable. But this stretch is nothing compared to what some fan bases suffer through.
I don't think Gettleman is terrible  
Lambuth_Special : 11/19/2019 11:55 am : link
I actually like his 2019 offseason on the balance, especially his pick accumulation and overall approach in the draft.

His 2018 offseason is looking pretty bad on nearly every measure however given that the draft is appearing more mediocre by the day.

The main problem I see with Gmen - and this has been said by GoTerps numerous times - is that there are too many voices on the managerial side. It's really tough to figure out who's advocating for what and if there is a settled direction at all.

I don't think it would've been too difficult to commit to a full rebuild. There's a wide chasm between outright saying you are not trying to lose and making blowhard claims of competing. All it takes is a little PR savvy.
RE: RE: RE: Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
HomerJones45 : 11/19/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14683618 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14683577 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


been in the basement long? Ok.

What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.

Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.



SF Kyle Shanahan took over after the 2016 season.
In 2017 the 9ers were 6-10
In 2018 the 9ers were 4-12
John Lynch took over the same year.

Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?
This shit again? In 2017, SF won 6 of their last 7 games. You see us doing that this season?

In 2018, they lost their starting qb for the year in game 3 and played 8 games with their 3rd string qb. Despite that, they finished in the top half of the League in offense and defense and they got to draft Bosa. How do you see us doing with Tanney playing eight games?

In retrospect, everyone should have seen something like year coming for the Niners. The signs were there. The Niners are more like the 82-84 Giants than this abysmal team.
Dnew15, allstarjim, DonQuixote - youíre missing the point  
Ben in Tampa : 11/19/2019 12:23 pm : link
Of my post. The point is not history or losing or Super Bowls, the point is that bad teams hired new coaches and theyíve built winners in 2-3 years.

The Giants were a bad team and hired a new coach and the team is getting worse.

And allstarjim, hard to use the Rookie QB excuse when heís been the best player on the team.
The idea that the drafts have improved  
Touchdown maker : 11/19/2019 12:23 pm : link
Is premature.

1) itís not hard to evaluate Saquon ability. That doesnít mean we maximized the pick. He was the WRONG pick.

2) is Hernandez actually good? Or is he just your league avg guard whose playing by they have nobody else.

3) Lauretta is gone. BJ Hill hasnít done shit this yr and neither has Carter. Overall the jury is out on whether or not we botched that draft.

4) Are we anointing jones already?
5) Deandre Baker sucks so far. He cost us multiple picks.

The best draft pick so far has been Darius Slayton.
RE: RE: RE: Neither Richburg nor Kennard  
HomerJones45 : 11/19/2019 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14683666 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14683658 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14683655 JonC said:


Quote:


were part of the future for NYG, better to let them go and keep your wallet shut.



I guess I'm confused as to why those guys weren't part of the future but dreck like Solder and Ogletree were.



The former were average or less NFL players who were drafted by the previous regime, and decided to be passed over for second NFL contracts. Kennard looks like a 4-3 SAM and not scheme diverse. Richburg was small and often over powered and injured. The latter were proven veterans who had played at reasonably high levels in the NFL. Solder also had some connection to the Giants from the past that appears to have been intact.

That is not to say the latter were worth the price DG paid for them. I think it was clear then it was a big roll of the dice, though I'm sure DG would say otherwise. To this point, they look like declining players who cashed in on us.
So we dumped a second round pick center in order to start a journeyman multi-team cast off who ended up playing minor league club football. Who could have guessed the second round pick would be anchoring a successful o-line and the cast off would be getting knocked on his ass week in and week out. OMG, what were the odds of that happening??

"Evaluation" does not mean automatically getting rid of everyone from the prior regime so you can re-draft and FA the same positions with "your" guys. Young did not come in here and decimate the ranks as a strategy. Guys like Van Pelt, Carson, Martin, Benson became building blocks of a very successful team- one that made the playoffs in year 3 and knocked off the previous year's Conference champions in the playoffs- with the second string qb no less. But then again, Young knew his business and Gettleman thinks being the cigar-chewing GM from central casting is enough.
we didn't get rid of Ruchburg  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 12:41 pm : link
we didn't re-sign him. The 49ers made him one of the highest paid Center's in the league at the time. He was often injured with NYG and didn't play like a top paid player at his position so I think it was the correct move.

How we backfilled him is another story but doesn't discount what happened prior - he just wasn't very good here those last couple of years.
We didn't even try to re-sign him  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 12:45 pm : link
The Giants made it clear to Richburg that they weren't going to offer him a contract. I remember reading a story about that before the 2017 season had even concluded.

Yes, he struggled through injuries - I still have to question the thought process that saw no value in retaining him AND decided to replace him with the likes of Halapio and Pulley. If you want to move on from Richburg, OK. Find someone better then!
I don't think the first part of your post matters  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 12:51 pm : link
GM's know the market and likely knew what Richburg was going to make, give or take, whether it was with NYG or elsewhere. He wasn't worth anything close to what he got as a NYG. It would have likely been more of the same.

He then gets a nice restart in San Fran, plays in a new scheme with better coaching and an ascending roster. Its not shocking that he's playing better there. I can almost guarantee that money would be pissed down the drain if he stayed here, just like the other lineman we've signed since.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 12:51 pm : link
I was fine with letting Richburg go, although I did like him. Seeing players go elsewhere and succeed is frustrating and suggests a failure somewhere, and maybe even in multiple facets - self-scouting, development.

And then we go out and sign guys like Solder and trade picks for Ogletree.
we didn't try to re-sign Collins either  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 12:53 pm : link
which was the correct move. Backfilling him hasn't worked out either but atleast we didn't sink that cost into a player that likely doesn't change a damn thing for us this year.
RE: ...  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14683730 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Seeing players go elsewhere and succeed is frustrating and suggests a failure somewhere, and maybe even in multiple facets - self-scouting, development


Exactly so. It's aggravating when we're stuck with one of the worst centers in football because the Giants were wrong about Richburg.

Richburg is proving a better value than Solder is.  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 12:57 pm : link
Many of us were cautious on the Solder signing. I don't recall being outright negative, but definitely skeptical.

I was against the Ogletree move early on, though. And I was sad to see Kennard go.

Outside of Jones, I'm not seeing enough to think DG is doing a job. And I think Shurmur is atrocious.
Richburg and Pugh  
JonC : 11/19/2019 12:58 pm : link
were viewed as part of the attitude problem.
RE: RE: ...  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 1:01 pm : link
In comment 14683735 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683730 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


Seeing players go elsewhere and succeed is frustrating and suggests a failure somewhere, and maybe even in multiple facets - self-scouting, development



Exactly so. It's aggravating when we're stuck with one of the worst centers in football because the Giants were wrong about Richburg.


I'm not sure why you are taking this angle. Every single one of our lineman isn't playing well or has regressed. What on earth makes you think Richburg plays well here?

Personally, I don't want to invest in anymore lineman until the entire staff is gone. Its a fucking waste.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 1:01 pm : link
JonC, I heard that as well - that falls on coaching. Every team has a bunch of shitheads, I'm sure.
It Seems Like Half the 2017 Team had an Attitude Problem  
Lambuth_Special : 11/19/2019 1:03 pm : link
It appears that if so many players are griping, it probably speaks to a deeper problem that could be addressed with some organizational changes rather than shipping out everyone that speaks up.

Plenty of Giants players complained about Parcells and Coughlin. They were able to meet many of them head on and work through conflict.
Richburg is pure 20/20 hindsight  
BillT : 11/19/2019 1:20 pm : link
After 4 years here he in no way deserved what the 49ers gave him and this place would have gone ballistic if we had outbid them. It's worked out ok for them but no chance of us paying that for him.
It's not really fair to call 2011 a ''fluke'' championship  
Overseer : 11/19/2019 1:25 pm : link
that team had several Giants drafted key pieces from 2008, which was a legitimately great squad...the best since the Parcells era.

They beat the Eagles in Philly (which is the last time they won a meaningful game at the Linc hahaha!) They beat New England in a classic at Foxborough. They beat Dallas twice, including in that epic JPP game. That was all before the arguable "lightning in a bottle" post-season.

The Cruz/Nicks/Manningham trio was legitimately excellent. Man I still weep for the baller Nicks' career ruined by injury.

About the only things "flukish" about that run were the hail mary in Green Bay (but NY dominated that game even without it) and the fact that Ted Ginn was out for San Francisco, leading to some serendipitous special teams breaks for the Giants. I think there was also a dubious Bradshaw (non)fumble in the Super Bowl when forward progress was ruled (?), but can't remember if 07 or 11...

"Flukish", I would say, was 2016. Really just not a great team. Spending spree in free agency that brought the great Jenkins (that year), good Snacks, and sometimes good Vernon. Lots of bounces went the Giants' way + multiple Beckham slants to the house led to post-season appearance where NY was promptly embarrassed by a far superior and more serious team.

--

Regardless, the New York Giants are now a joke and a laughing stock. I suspect more and more of the fanbase is experiencing apathy, even if subconsciously. I can tell you that I felt zero, and I mean ZERO emotional difference between the start & conclusion of the Jets game.

The team is fully & decidedly in "prove it" mode. "Potential", "better drafting", "impending cap space", "top RB in football" (*Dalvin Cook, by the way)...blah blah fucking blah.

Win some God damn football games you flailing & ineffectual embarrassing trainwreck of an NFL franchise.

RE: Richburg is pure 20/20 hindsight  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 1:39 pm : link
In comment 14683764 BillT said:
Quote:
After 4 years here he in no way deserved what the 49ers gave him and this place would have gone ballistic if we had outbid them. It's worked out ok for them but no chance of us paying that for him.


You're absolutely right - signing Jon Halapio was the smart play.
how many more games did you expect the giants to win  
japanhead : 11/19/2019 1:39 pm : link
this year? arizona? the jets? maybe the lions? that would put them at 4-6 or 5-5. and it's not like they were blown out in those games either, although they showed poorly v arizona in regard to being able to stop the run.

this is not a good team, we expected the OL to be better, sure. you could argue that the W/L difference is due to bad coaching and shurmur certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

more directly, i think it is due to a rookie QB whose interception and two fumbles gave the cardinals 17 points, and whose strip-sack-fumble gave the jets a defensive TD, and whose fumble v the lions resulted in a defensive TD.

they lost each of those three games by a TD or less.

we expected the defense to suck with all the youth. but jones is also a very real problem and gives the other team points regularly and it is no surprise they lose with these kinds of giveaways because the defense isn't good enough to overcome those kinds of mistakes by the offense.

but hey, we all expected rookie growing pains, right?

The 2011 team was 9-7 and gave up more points than they scored  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 1:43 pm : link
In 53 Super Bowls, 2011 was the only time the champion had a negative point differential. They had the worst running game in football over the course of the season. 2011 was the only playoff appearance in a seven season stretch from 2009-2015. Yes, they were fluky.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Did you just use Oakland as an example of a team that hasn't  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14683693 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14683618 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14683577 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


been in the basement long? Ok.

What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.

Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.



SF Kyle Shanahan took over after the 2016 season.
In 2017 the 9ers were 6-10
In 2018 the 9ers were 4-12
John Lynch took over the same year.

Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?

This shit again? In 2017, SF won 6 of their last 7 games. You see us doing that this season?

In 2018, they lost their starting qb for the year in game 3 and played 8 games with their 3rd string qb. Despite that, they finished in the top half of the League in offense and defense and they got to draft Bosa. How do you see us doing with Tanney playing eight games?

In retrospect, everyone should have seen something like year coming for the Niners. The signs were there. The Niners are more like the 82-84 Giants than this abysmal team.


You don't think that there's mitigating circumstances that MIGHT make Shurmur's record bad?

I thought losers where losers and excuses were like assholes - we all have them and they all stink?

Which one is it?
I guess Shurmur's career is loaded with mitigating circumstances, then  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 1:45 pm : link
Since he's, y'know, 17-48 as a head coach.
RE: RE: Richburg is pure 20/20 hindsight  
BillT : 11/19/2019 1:50 pm : link
In comment 14683803 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683764 BillT said:


Quote:


After 4 years here he in no way deserved what the 49ers gave him and this place would have gone ballistic if we had outbid them. It's worked out ok for them but no chance of us paying that for him.



You're absolutely right - signing Jon Halapio was the smart play.

I didn't say anything about Halapio thank you very much.
But it's nonsense that signing Richburg for $50m would have been a good move or that Giants' brass wouldn't have been killed here for doing so after Richburg's performance in his four years here.
2011 team was 9-7 in the standings, yes  
Overseer : 11/19/2019 1:53 pm : link
They got hosed vs Green Bay, A.



And B, the week 9 win in New England alone proves that was a pretty solid team at the very least. No question they took it to another level from the Jets game through SB46, but 2016 is a much better example of a fluky Giants team.

Itís hard as  
Les in TO : 11/19/2019 1:59 pm : link
A fan to have three straight seasons of not only not making the playoffs but being a bottom feeder. 7/8 seasons of missing the playoffs completely when 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year. Itís a drought.

The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. Itís not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.

Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like heís flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)

The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.

Great thread Uber (clap clap)  
5BowlsSoon : 11/19/2019 2:03 pm : link
I understand exactly what you are preaching....we should at least be better this year than last year, right?

The excuse that will come out obviously will be....Ēwe were forced to play a lot of 1-2 year players and as we all know, they make mistakes and need time to grow.Ē

I suppose their is truth in this......but, the question I think many of us are asking is this....are these guys being coached up properly? I am now having my doubts, especially on defense. I donít see any improvement at all,....although I know Baker, Ballentine now, Love soon, Dexter, Xman, And BJ, Are all1-2 year players. They still look like tjey are confused in their assignments and some are not good at tackling.

On offense, at least DJ is doing well, save the fumbles, and he doesnít really have many sexy toys to play with, with Shep, Saquon, Engram always out and both OTs suck.

I am now of the opinion that maybe a totally new coaching staff might just be what the doctor ordered. Look at Arizona....they are at least playing much better ball and are competitive. Iíd like to be even where they are at today than where we are at.

As for DG....leave him alone...heís done enough good things to offset the few bad decisions.
RE: The 2011 team was 9-7 and gave up more points than they scored  
Chris684 : 11/19/2019 2:14 pm : link
In comment 14683810 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In 53 Super Bowls, 2011 was the only time the champion had a negative point differential. They had the worst running game in football over the course of the season. 2011 was the only playoff appearance in a seven season stretch from 2009-2015. Yes, they were fluky.


This is utter stupidity.

Did you exclude 2008 and 2016 from your range because they made the playoffs in those years by any chance?
RE: RE: Richburg is pure 20/20 hindsight  
HomerJones45 : 11/19/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14683803 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683764 BillT said:


Quote:


After 4 years here he in no way deserved what the 49ers gave him and this place would have gone ballistic if we had outbid them. It's worked out ok for them but no chance of us paying that for him.



You're absolutely right - signing Jon Halapio was the smart play.
Halapio is the bottom of the center clearance bin at Ocean State Job Lot. His one redeeming feature is that he was available (who else wanted him) and cheap. And we get to go out and buy a FA center or spend draft picks (down two for Williams) for another one! You guys are right! That's so exciting! That's how you go build a team!

Hindsight my ass. He missed one game his first three years here and was hurt his walk year. Since then, quel surprise, he's missed one game with the Niners. Meanwhile Mr. Filene's basement missed 14 games last season and one, probably misses the next game too, this season. What a bargain! oft-injured and ineffective!
still don't know what Halapio  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 2:17 pm : link
sucking has to do with moving on from and not giving out a top end contract to a player that couldn't stay healthy and under-performed in his role with the Giants.

I know you love your one-liners, but I'd love an explanation on this one.
RE: Itís hard as  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14683832 Les in TO said:
Quote:
A fan to have three straight seasons of not only not making the playoffs but being a bottom feeder. 7/8 seasons of missing the playoffs completely when 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year. Itís a drought.

The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. Itís not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.

Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like heís flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)

The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.


I'm still searching for this team that had a quick turn around from perennial loser to perennial winner...
RE: RE: The 2011 team was 9-7 and gave up more points than they scored  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14683845 Chris684 said:
Quote:
This is utter stupidity.

Did you exclude 2008 and 2016 from your range because they made the playoffs in those years by any chance?


I know I'm going to regret even bothering replying to your dumb ass, yapping away like a chihuahua the way you always do......the point was that, in a seven year stretch, that was the only season in which they made the playoffs. They didn't in the two years preceding 2011, and they didn't in the four years following 2011. If you want to cut down on the back end and say that it was in the middle of a five year period with no other playoff berths, fine. The point of the matter is that the teams immediately preceding and following that team couldn't even get a seat at the table, which is simply more evidence that said team was a fluky champion.

Now, run along like a good little doggie.
RE: still don't know what Halapio  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14683849 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
sucking has to do with moving on from and not giving out a top end contract to a player that couldn't stay healthy and under-performed in his role with the Giants.

I know you love your one-liners, but I'd love an explanation on this one.


Why is it so hard for you to admit that Gettleman, as usual, blew this decision outta his ass? Was he wrong in his assessment of Richburg? Yes. Was he wrong in his assessment of Halapio? Dear God, yes.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was 9-7 and gave up more points than they scored  
Chris684 : 11/19/2019 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14683864 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683845 Chris684 said:


Quote:


This is utter stupidity.

Did you exclude 2008 and 2016 from your range because they made the playoffs in those years by any chance?



I know I'm going to regret even bothering replying to your dumb ass, yapping away like a chihuahua the way you always do......the point was that, in a seven year stretch, that was the only season in which they made the playoffs. They didn't in the two years preceding 2011, and they didn't in the four years following 2011. If you want to cut down on the back end and say that it was in the middle of a five year period with no other playoff berths, fine. The point of the matter is that the teams immediately preceding and following that team couldn't even get a seat at the table, which is simply more evidence that said team was a fluky champion.

Now, run along like a good little doggie.


About the doggie thing, ok? You are a pretty weird guy and a big cry baby.

But anyway, talking about flukes, the 2010 NYG team that missed out on the playoffs due to 8 minutes of stupidity, was surely a bigger fluke right?

The 9-7 2011 team probably should have been 10-6 if not for a bad call as noted above.

The argument that 2011 was lesser of a Super Bowl champion because of some rushing statistics or other stats is like judging a football game based on yards rather points scored.



considering I posted earlier about  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 2:47 pm : link
Gettelman making some mistakes, you are wrong on that assessment.

Its like pulling teeth with you, so dug in on your stance that you refuse to get out of your own way. Richburg wasn't worth top Center money, and that's what the 49ers paid him. They added him to a pretty good line and better coaching. He's now healthy and working well in Shanahan's offense which is a farcry from Shurmurs. Do you not understand that that shit matters?

So was letting Collins go a mistake too since our defense is still awful? Using your logic we should have kept him no matter the price.
as for Gettelman  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 2:49 pm : link
he was right to not pay Richburg, which is obvious considering how bad every player is on this line right now. He has failed at replacing him.

You do see how that's a legitimate reality, don't you?
Oh, they only missed it because of 8 minutes of stupidity?  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:49 pm : link
Well, glad we cleared that up. Let's give them an honorary playoff berth then! BTW, in case you've forgetten, they still had a shot at the playoffs after that collapse. They proceeded to get the living shit beaten out of them by Green Bay.

Points scored as a measure of a team, you say? Well, that's certainly a factor in point differential, a metric by which the 2011 Giants rank dead last among 53 Super Bowl winners.
RE: as for Gettelman  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 2:51 pm : link
In comment 14683886 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he was right to not pay Richburg, which is obvious considering how bad every player is on this line right now. He has failed at replacing him.

You do see how that's a legitimate reality, don't you?


So your argument is that they shouldn't have retained a player who is playing well for another team because everyone they have on the line right now is garbage, so he would inevitably have been garbage as well? I don't follow that logic, but whatever, there's no use in arguing further.

No matter how you shade it, Gettleman has failed miserably at rebuilding the line.
RE: At then end of the day, what other choice do you have other than....  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2019 3:03 pm : link
In comment 14683499 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
to be patient?

Honestly, you have two choices. Be patient, or find something else to do. In reality, there isn't much else that can be done for fans.

I guess we could find a discussion forum and, you know, discuss it.

Surely you don't think we should all just abandon BBI until the Giants are good again, do you?
It's not a discussion anymore.  
Britt in VA : 11/19/2019 3:05 pm : link
It's two sides completely entrenched shouting over each other.

A microcosm of society, really.
The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Go Terps : 11/19/2019 3:07 pm : link
There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.
RE: It's not a discussion anymore.  
Go Terps : 11/19/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14683900 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
It's two sides completely entrenched shouting over each other.

A microcosm of society, really.


The difference is that one side of the argument regarding the Giants continues to be proven right by the results on the field. There's only one metric that matters in football, and in that metric the Gettleman/Shurmur braintrust is 7-19.

The rest is excuses, which have become as much a staple of this time of year as turkey, stuffing, and raking leaves.
RE: RE: as for Gettelman  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14683890 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683886 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he was right to not pay Richburg, which is obvious considering how bad every player is on this line right now. He has failed at replacing him.

You do see how that's a legitimate reality, don't you?



So your argument is that they shouldn't have retained a player who is playing well for another team because everyone they have on the line right now is garbage, so he would inevitably have been garbage as well? I don't follow that logic, but whatever, there's no use in arguing further.

No matter how you shade it, Gettleman has failed miserably at rebuilding the line.


Well no, you didn't even bother with him being amongst the top paid centers in the game so I don't even know why we are having this discussion. I gave you two reasons. The first was how much he cost, the second was his cost + how he was playing for us + how he's in an entirely different offense that better suits what he's good at.

And now we can go back to the larger issue, why is everyone failing? I refuse to believe Solder sucks, Zeitler sucks, and Hernandez regressing is all because DG miscalculated. He absolutely whiffed on C and RT, but there's a larger issue here.

Am I allowed to have that opinion?
...  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 3:14 pm : link
Quote:
Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona


I still don't really understand the rule that let them rule him down.
RE: RE: Itís hard as  
Les in TO : 11/19/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14683863 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14683832 Les in TO said:


Quote:


A fan to have three straight seasons of not only not making the playoffs but being a bottom feeder. 7/8 seasons of missing the playoffs completely when 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year. Itís a drought.

The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. Itís not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.

Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like heís flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)

The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.




I'm still searching for this team that had a quick turn around from perennial loser to perennial winner...
the jags and cowboys had quick turnarounds from basement dwellers to division champs. The colts were crap before Manning and the season before Luck was drafted. The Steelers has almost 15 years of success after Big Ben was drafted but were 6-10 the year prior. The Chiefs were a hot mess before Reid arrived and are perennial contenders. In those cases a new coach and/or QB can turn around a teams fortunes.
More and more I find it hard to understand what there is  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/19/2019 3:31 pm : link
with this regime that's worth defending so fiercely.

They're losers. They're not even showing signs of improving. They have Barkley (who shouldn't even be playing because his horrid pass blocking has gotten Jones smacked in the mouth more than once) and Dexter Lawrence.
RE: ...  
Mike from Ohio : 11/19/2019 3:31 pm : link
In comment 14683915 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona



I still don't really understand the rule that let them rule him down.


That was a missed call. The rule allows a player to give himself up without being touched, but that was very clearly not what Cruz was doing. The Giants got bailed out on that one.
I can easily believe Solder sucks  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 3:33 pm : link
He wasn't exactly Orlando Pace in New England to begin with. He was adequate, and now he's getting old and rapidly declining.

Zeitler 1)was overblown by BBI in the first place, with many people claiming he was an All-Pro caliber guard despite the fact that he's never made All-Pro, or even the Pro Bowl 2)is playing through an injury.

Also, Zeitler and Hernandez playing around the useless Halapio isn't helping matters, either.
RE: More and more I find it hard to understand what there is  
Go Terps : 11/19/2019 3:35 pm : link
In comment 14683939 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
with this regime that's worth defending so fiercely.

They're losers. They're not even showing signs of improving. They have Barkley (who shouldn't even be playing because his horrid pass blocking has gotten Jones smacked in the mouth more than once) and Dexter Lawrence.


Some people have a hard time criticizing the Giants. It's tough to accept that they might be bad at their jobs. If you switched the uniforms to some other team, the posters defending Mara and Gettleman would be citing them for incompetence.

But because they are Giants, the excuses and rationalizations flow freely.
RE: RE: ...  
Go Terps : 11/19/2019 3:38 pm : link
In comment 14683940 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
In comment 14683915 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:




Quote:


Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona



I still don't really understand the rule that let them rule him down.



That was a missed call. The rule allows a player to give himself up without being touched, but that was very clearly not what Cruz was doing. The Giants got bailed out on that one.


Yup. If the refs get that right, the Super Bowl doesn't happen because they don't make the playoffs.

Now I'm not saying we should give the title back. But the point holds that that wasn't a great team, and more importantly astute leadership would have identified the warning signs and taken corrective action early instead of resting on laurels.
When..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/19/2019 3:41 pm : link
the idea that not signing Collins or Richburg were the right moves cannot be agreed upon, you just have to face the fact that some posters will go to any lengths to not give any credit at all to the organization and will just continue to batter the board with bullshit.

RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Overseer : 11/19/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14683904 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.


Fairly dubious to detract from that team via "hair away" toward losses, but not credit them via "hair away" toward wins (like vs Green Bay).

That team was exemplary of "you are what your record says you are". @Linc, @NE, @Dal wins + competitive v Green Bay all proved they were more than an average team. If that was a "fluky" team, then idk what 2016 was...


Regardless, your note about Shaun Rogers is on point (Edwards went off that game too). Wilson over Glenn, Sintim over Unger. This is not "20/20 hindsight". The festering fail was being called at the time by many on this website. This is all occurring, mind you, when the absolute most certain things about your team is that you have A) a virtually unparalleled immobile QB and B) one who is lethal with good pass pro.

Then we saw the same fail again with Engram over Ramczyk. I am the farthest thing from a college football guru and even I was throwing my hands up in April 2017. Hey at least the Giants have Remmers at RT!

RE: I don't think the first part of your post matters  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14683729 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
GM's know the market and likely knew what Richburg was going to make, give or take, whether it was with NYG or elsewhere. He wasn't worth anything close to what he got as a NYG. It would have likely been more of the same.

He then gets a nice restart in San Fran, plays in a new scheme with better coaching and an ascending roster. Its not shocking that he's playing better there. I can almost guarantee that money would be pissed down the drain if he stayed here, just like the other lineman we've signed since.

Here's the one thing that jumped out at me and I feel like there's a chance (though I don't have anything besides my own skepticism/cynicism to base this on) that not all GMs have their finger on the pulse of the market, that they're not all as plugged in at all times as we assume or even hope, that they're just as likely to be blindsided in their endeavors as any of us are in our respective industries.

Besides, who has time to stay plugged in when they have to dedicate time to admiring their own resume every day?
RE: Great thread Uber (clap clap)  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2019 3:49 pm : link
In comment 14683834 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
I understand exactly what you are preaching....we should at least be better this year than last year, right?

The excuse that will come out obviously will be....Ēwe were forced to play a lot of 1-2 year players and as we all know, they make mistakes and need time to grow.Ē

I suppose their is truth in this......but, the question I think many of us are asking is this....are these guys being coached up properly? I am now having my doubts, especially on defense. I donít see any improvement at all,....although I know Baker, Ballentine now, Love soon, Dexter, Xman, And BJ, Are all1-2 year players. They still look like tjey are confused in their assignments and some are not good at tackling.

On offense, at least DJ is doing well, save the fumbles, and he doesnít really have many sexy toys to play with, with Shep, Saquon, Engram always out and both OTs suck.

I am now of the opinion that maybe a totally new coaching staff might just be what the doctor ordered. Look at Arizona....they are at least playing much better ball and are competitive. Iíd like to be even where they are at today than where we are at.

As for DG....leave him alone...heís done enough good things to offset the few bad decisions.

His bad decisions outweigh his good ones to date. There are some incompletes that may turn out to be good decisions, but there's not a lot that you can definitively say could possibly outweigh his mistakes yet.

And let's not forget, he DID extend Sterling Shepard.
RE: More and more I find it hard to understand what there is  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/19/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14683939 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
with this regime that's worth defending so fiercely.

They're losers. They're not even showing signs of improving. They have Barkley (who shouldn't even be playing because his horrid pass blocking has gotten Jones smacked in the mouth more than once) and Dexter Lawrence.

Very few defend Shurmur, so it's really just Gettleman. And those defenders fall into three camps, with a handful of exceptions:

1) The sneakers game attendees who can't enough of DG's old school football rhetoric, and don't pay close enough attention to realize that the rule changes and current CBA make that style of football materially more difficult to build a proper roster for

2) The fans who are so refreshed that Gettleman isn't Reese, that they find a way to credit him and blame Reese for anything that goes wrong, including roster moves that are entirely Gettleman's

3) The cheerleaders who find no fault in anything the Giants do in any form

Note that some fans embody more than one (and in some cases, all three) of these categories.
'what SHOULDNíT take years and years'  
Torrag : 11/19/2019 4:03 pm : link
When you have regime change the clock is reset. DG has had a season and a half+. This will be his third Draft and Free Agent phase. Realistically next year is when significant headway should be made.

That said I'm both aggravated and worried about the head coach and his staff(primary culprits are shurmur/bettcher/hunter). This roster isn't as bad as the results they've gotten imo. Their progress with the younger players has been lethargic and disappointing.
RE: When..  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14683952 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the idea that not signing Collins or Richburg were the right moves cannot be agreed upon, you just have to face the fact that some posters will go to any lengths to not give any credit at all to the organization and will just continue to batter the board with bullshit.


No one has talked about Collins on here at all that I can see. Regarding Richburg, however, I'm not understand where the bullshit is. Richburg is starting for a 9-1 team and playing at least reasonably well. The Giants starter is a sorryass journeyman nobody. Those are both simple facts. To me, letting Richburg walk is only the right move if you have a plan to get someone better, or at least someone who is roughly equivalent but cheaper. The Giants got the cheaper part right, but their center of choice is a guy who had drifted through several organizations without getting any significant playing time. That was a failure, full stop.
RE: RE: RE: Itís hard as  
Dnew15 : 11/19/2019 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14683917 Les in TO said:
Quote:
In comment 14683863 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


In comment 14683832 Les in TO said:


Quote:


A fan to have three straight seasons of not only not making the playoffs but being a bottom feeder. 7/8 seasons of missing the playoffs completely when 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year. Itís a drought.

The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. Itís not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.

Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like heís flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)

The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.




I'm still searching for this team that had a quick turn around from perennial loser to perennial winner...

the jags and cowboys had quick turnarounds from basement dwellers to division champs. The colts were crap before Manning and the season before Luck was drafted. The Steelers has almost 15 years of success after Big Ben was drafted but were 6-10 the year prior. The Chiefs were a hot mess before Reid arrived and are perennial contenders. In those cases a new coach and/or QB can turn around a teams fortunes.


I think your first example is what I'm getting at.

First of all, I'm not saying that PS is the answer or that he should or shouldn't be fired.

What I am saying is that one sure fire way to continue to suck, and that is to continually restart the rebuild. The Jags did that.

Did they turn "it" around in one year? I would argue no. Prior to the year they made it to the AFC championship game they had 9 straight years of losing football, during which they had 5 different HCs. Doug Marrone came in and had one year of success. THen went 5-11 the following year and is 4-6 right now.


Franchises that continue to use the HC has a scapegoat for the organizations' failures continue to be failures.

I believe, right or wrong, that the New York Giants are going to give DG and PS every possible chance to succeed because either ownership is too damn stubborn to admit that they were wrong OR they understand the continuity of leadership at the top is the only path to success.

The history lesson was to provide a back drop to the understanding that this franchise is not the Jags, or the Bucs, or the Redskins, or the Dolphins, or the Jets, or the any number of teams that have been engulfed in losing for 15-30 years.

And even though this is a rough stretch and things look dim - maybe, maybe ownership has earned the right to ask the fan base for patience as they transition from Eli/Reece/TC to a new era of football, because they have gotten it right in the past unlike SO MANY other NFL franchises.

'Richburg walk is only the right move '  
Torrag : 11/19/2019 4:13 pm : link
Richburg didn't earn or deserve an extension beyond his rookie deal. He had about one good season in four and regressed badly the final year and a half.

Second guess all you want. It was the right decision to move on from him.
RE: 'Richburg walk is only the right move '  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14683991 Torrag said:
Quote:
Richburg didn't earn or deserve an extension beyond his rookie deal. He had about one good season in four and regressed badly the final year and a half.

Second guess all you want. It was the right decision to move on from him.


a)Clearly the Niners saw something in him worth signing him for, and their scouting of him sure as hell turned out to be closer to reality.

b)For the thousandth time, if you want to part ways from Richburg, it helps to have a plan that doesn't involve installing a complete nonentity as your starting center.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 4:17 pm : link
The Giants seemed to have zero interest in retaining Richburg. He moved on and has played well. That seems like a failure on many levels.

I don't think many would argue Richburg underperformed here. That should probably fall on coaching. DG not seeing the potential is a failure by him.
'For the thousandth time'...  
Torrag : 11/19/2019 4:18 pm : link
If you wanna stay you gotta play and play well. He didn't do much of either.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 4:18 pm : link
Other teams apparently saw potential in Richburg:

Quote:
Iíve been mentioning all along that the Jets have their sights set on obtaining Weston Richburg in free agency. Itís very likely going to be a much more expensive acquisition than the franchise initially thought, as Iím told the market for Richburg has exploded and plenty of teams have shown a ton of interest in the soon-to-be free-agent center. This will put the Jets in an awkward position, as theyíve shown no interest in re-signing Wesley Johnson, the teamís starting center last season.

Giants Wire - ( New Window )
'That should probably fall on coaching.'  
Torrag : 11/19/2019 4:22 pm : link
Lame excuses and the typical shirking of personal responsibility. It's on the player first and foremost.
not all the teams have the vision of Dave Gettleman, though  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 4:22 pm : link
No one else wanted Jon fuckin Halapio, but Mr. Magoo saw the potential there just waiting to be unlocked.
RE: 'That should probably fall on coaching.'  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 4:29 pm : link
In comment 14684005 Torrag said:
Quote:
Lame excuses and the typical shirking of personal responsibility. It's on the player first and foremost.


The same player that is succeeding elsewhere? He had the tools in him. The team couldn't get it out of him. They failed maximizing the player's value.
RE: RE: I don't think the first part of your post matters  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 4:36 pm : link
In comment 14683957 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14683729 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


GM's know the market and likely knew what Richburg was going to make, give or take, whether it was with NYG or elsewhere. He wasn't worth anything close to what he got as a NYG. It would have likely been more of the same.

He then gets a nice restart in San Fran, plays in a new scheme with better coaching and an ascending roster. Its not shocking that he's playing better there. I can almost guarantee that money would be pissed down the drain if he stayed here, just like the other lineman we've signed since.


Here's the one thing that jumped out at me and I feel like there's a chance (though I don't have anything besides my own skepticism/cynicism to base this on) that not all GMs have their finger on the pulse of the market, that they're not all as plugged in at all times as we assume or even hope, that they're just as likely to be blindsided in their endeavors as any of us are in our respective industries.

Besides, who has time to stay plugged in when they have to dedicate time to admiring their own resume every day?


Lets say that's the case, why would that matter in this scenario? Richburg got paid a ton by the 49ers and nothing the Giants did or didn't do can change that.

Its a very weird thing to get hung up on. DG has failed at getting a quality Center but we had 4 years of Richburg and nothing he did here suggested that he should be one of the highest paid players in the league at his position.

Both can be true, I don't know why its so hard admit that.
2011 is Eli Manning's greatest season  
arniefez : 11/19/2019 4:39 pm : link
It's really incredible he won a Super Bowl with that OL especially the two OTs.
RE: RE: When..  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 4:40 pm : link
In comment 14683983 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683952 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the idea that not signing Collins or Richburg were the right moves cannot be agreed upon, you just have to face the fact that some posters will go to any lengths to not give any credit at all to the organization and will just continue to batter the board with bullshit.




No one has talked about Collins on here at all that I can see. Regarding Richburg, however, I'm not understand where the bullshit is. Richburg is starting for a 9-1 team and playing at least reasonably well. The Giants starter is a sorryass journeyman nobody. Those are both simple facts. To me, letting Richburg walk is only the right move if you have a plan to get someone better, or at least someone who is roughly equivalent but cheaper. The Giants got the cheaper part right, but their center of choice is a guy who had drifted through several organizations without getting any significant playing time. That was a failure, full stop.


And they were 4-12 last year when they signed him. I also don't agree on when/how you let someone walk. You shouldn't ever be forced to keep a guy and pay above what you are comfortable with unless they are a huge difference maker like a QB, LT, ER (and don't we all applaud the teams that don't overpay and use the next man up mentality?). Losing Richburg should have been an easy thing to overcome. Obviously that got botched.
also I brought up Collins  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 4:44 pm : link
he's a perfect example of not paying a guy even if you don't have a backup plan. At that price, see you later.
RE: RE: 'Richburg walk is only the right move '  
HomerJones45 : 11/19/2019 4:50 pm : link
In comment 14683994 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683991 Torrag said:


Quote:


Richburg didn't earn or deserve an extension beyond his rookie deal. He had about one good season in four and regressed badly the final year and a half.

Second guess all you want. It was the right decision to move on from him.



a)Clearly the Niners saw something in him worth signing him for, and their scouting of him sure as hell turned out to be closer to reality.

b)For the thousandth time, if you want to part ways from Richburg, it helps to have a plan that doesn't involve installing a complete nonentity as your starting center.
Thank you. You put it better than I did.

How the hell does this team expect to get any better rummaging through the clearance bin for players and re-drafting the same positions over and over again? Instead of having the center position set, we screwed around with hambones for two seasons only to, shocker, either spend a draft pick or pay a FA so we have at least a semi-competent center instead of shoring up another position or two. Gee, why doesn't this team ever get any better?
Got to have patience  
micky : 11/19/2019 4:53 pm : link
It will come to gether eventually. Believe once the season in 2067 rolls around, we'll all be rewarded for our patience and have a team right there challenging for div title.

Patience is a virtue
Center salaries  
HomerJones45 : 11/19/2019 5:05 pm : link
According to OTC, the highest paid center is getting about $11 million a year. Richburg is 9th on the list, but the salaries are compressed. The guy at 17 is making about a million a year less.

We are paying Pulley, yes that Spencer Pulley, 2.7 mill a year and Halapio about $650k. Wow, look at all the money we saved having a non-functional center!

It's a symptom- poor player evaluation and poor pro personnel management. The proof is in the pudding. The Niners were much better in their assessment; they have had a legit starting center for two years (shocked that they are 8-1 or whatever they are). We will be diving back into the clearance rack- again or bellying up to the center bar to spend resources (who needs an offensive tackle anyway?). (not shocked that we are 2-8). But hey, we are just like them and on the brink of turning it around right?
Center wasnít set with Richburg  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 5:05 pm : link
thatís the entire point. Good for him for making it work elsewhere but I wish he did that sooner.
I'm not a Richburg fan (he's the guy that got Eli crushed in 2016)  
Go Terps : 11/19/2019 5:10 pm : link
But I've said for a while I think center is the second most important position on the offense after QB. The way the Giants have treated the position is negligent.
This team needs ro be tebuilt through the draft  
Sneakers O'toole : 11/19/2019 5:28 pm : link
That takes time
RE: I'm not a Richburg fan (he's the guy that got Eli crushed in 2016)  
ryanmkeane : 11/19/2019 5:29 pm : link
In comment 14684047 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But I've said for a while I think center is the second most important position on the offense after QB. The way the Giants have treated the position is negligent.

Well, the counter to that argument is we won a Super Bowl with David Baas at center.
To be rebuilt  
Sneakers O'toole : 11/19/2019 5:29 pm : link
I text with old man fingers, and I'm not that old.
'They failed maximizing the player's value.'  
Torrag : 11/19/2019 5:33 pm : link
Backwards. The player failed in maximizing his value to the team. If he had stayed healthy and played well he'd still be here.
RE: 'They failed maximizing the player's value.'  
BrettNYG10 : 11/19/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14684072 Torrag said:
Quote:
Backwards. The player failed in maximizing his value to the team. If he had stayed healthy and played well he'd still be here.


Does the team ever share blame in a player failing in your worldview?
Thereís too much of a pattern here  
UConn4523 : 11/19/2019 5:45 pm : link
this is systematic, and not just on the individual. Our coaching is horrible. In addition to just coaching up individuals our schemes have been a joke too.
RE: RE: I'm not a Richburg fan (he's the guy that got Eli crushed in 2016)  
Greg from LI : 11/19/2019 6:06 pm : link
In comment 14684066 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Well, the counter to that argument is we won a Super Bowl with David Baas at center.


Baas was fine when he was healthy. Unfortunately, that wasn't very often.
'Does the team ever share blame in a player failing in your worldview?  
Torrag : 11/19/2019 6:21 pm : link
Richburg bears the primary responsibility for his success or failure. As does every person on the planet for their circumstances. Of course there are a myriad of influences. I'd suggest between the teams general support and resources, training, nutrition, film study, coaching, salary, etc he was given more than enough assistance to succeed here.
RE: RE: I'm not a Richburg fan (he's the guy that got Eli crushed in 2016)  
christian : 11/19/2019 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14684066 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14684047 Go Terps said:


Quote:


But I've said for a while I think center is the second most important position on the offense after QB. The way the Giants have treated the position is negligent.


Well, the counter to that argument is we won a Super Bowl with David Baas at center.


David Baas had several fabulous games down the stretch, including the Super Bowl. The Giants would kill for a healthy Baas right now.
RE: 'They failed maximizing the player's value.'  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/19/2019 7:49 pm : link
In comment 14684072 Torrag said:
Quote:
Backwards. The player failed in maximizing his value to the team. If he had stayed healthy and played well he'd still be here.


Player development is a necessary part of being a competing team. That's the difference between consistently good teams and mediocre ones. How does a person watch the patriots for 20 years, or any Andy Reid team present a consistently excellent football team for long periods of time and not think that successful franchises know how to develop players.
RE: 'Does the team ever share blame in a player failing in your worldview?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/19/2019 7:54 pm : link
In comment 14684110 Torrag said:
Quote:
Richburg bears the primary responsibility for his success or failure. As does every person on the planet for their circumstances. Of course there are a myriad of influences. I'd suggest between the teams general support and resources, training, nutrition, film study, coaching, salary, etc he was given more than enough assistance to succeed here.


And we have years and years of failed draft picks that would suggest the opposite. Who are the Giants over the past 10 years who have become excellent from less than that? Who's the last player the Giants can say they developed? Victor Cruz?

The stars that have worn this uniform since 2011 almost exclusively came into the league as something special. They weren't developed here. And plenty of players who were SUPPOSED to be good according to scouts have gone on to do nothing.
The GMEN were 5-11 last year and 2-8 this year  
giantstock : 11/19/2019 10:08 pm : link
And the 5-11 last year was fortunate as the GMen won 4 games vs backup QB's. SO screw the record and the lousy football- "let's leave the GM alone."

Unbelievable the homerism some have on here.
RE: RE: 'Does the team ever share blame in a player failing in your worldview?  
santacruzom : 11/19/2019 10:33 pm : link
In comment 14684150 Ten Ton Hammer said:?

The stars that have worn this uniform since 2011 almost exclusively came into the league as something special. They weren't developed here. And plenty of players who were SUPPOSED to be good according to scouts have gone on to do nothing. [/quote]

I have a theory on that: I think our several-year-long spell of having abysmal special teams played a role in our terrible player development. The ST unit seems to me like something of a culture builder, and potentially a place where a competent coach can instill a mentality and attention to detail that its players take with them.
RE: RE: When..  
giantstock : 11/19/2019 10:52 pm : link
In comment 14683983 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14683952 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


the idea that not signing Collins or Richburg were the right moves cannot be agreed upon, you just have to face the fact that some posters will go to any lengths to not give any credit at all to the organization and will just continue to batter the board with bullshit.




No one has talked about Collins on here at all that I can see. Regarding Richburg, however, I'm not understand where the bullshit is. Richburg is starting for a 9-1 team and playing at least reasonably well. The Giants starter is a sorryass journeyman nobody. Those are both simple facts. To me, letting Richburg walk is only the right move if you have a plan to get someone better, or at least someone who is roughly equivalent but cheaper. The Giants got the cheaper part right, but their center of choice is a guy who had drifted through several organizations without getting any significant playing time. That was a failure, full stop.


It was brought up by uconn4523 but no one on here mentioned a word about slamming DG for that move. The guy you responded to is notorious for taking posts out of context and twisting them to fit his narrative.

There wasn't one post on here slamming the Collins move. In that context you are exactly correct-- it was never mentioned in the context that the poster would have others believe. The twisting of posts is one of his shticks.
I get that you canít complain about everything but I just donít  
Jim in Hoboken : 11/19/2019 11:04 pm : link
get the select few who like to complain about others complaining. Let them. I mean, we are fucking deplorable, who and what deserves defending?
RE: I have a similar feeling that somehow they will finish out strong  
Optimus-NY : 11/20/2019 12:29 am : link
In comment 14683509 Dinger said:
Quote:
I think its because the talent IS there and, really, all they've been missing is some semblance of defense to win a game or two here or there. I think they play the eagles close and probably get blown out by the packers, but the rest could be wins and I think that will be enough for Shurmur to stick around, unfortunately, in my opinion.


There is NO talent. Good God man.
RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Leg of Theismann : 11/20/2019 1:32 am : link
In comment 14683904 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.


You are what your record says you are. You can point to this or that play in any given game and say they could have been 7-9, I could point to this or that play and say they could have been 11-5. They were what they were: 13-7 NFC East Champs, NFC Champs and NFL Champs against a very, very tough schedule.

Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter), and the 2012 Giants started 6-2 and then collapsed. I agree 2008 regular season was a peak of the Coughlin Giants, but I truly believe the end of 2011 was a legitimate peak unto itself that was equal to the 2007-end thru 2008-beginning peak.

That team started off the year a very respectable 5-2... and then went 8-5 against THIS schedule (ranked in order of regular season schedule):

15-1 Packers TWICE
13-3 Patriots TWICE
13-3 49ers TWICE
13-3 Saints (in Superdome where Saints were undefeated that year)
10-6 Falcons
8-8 Jets
8-8 Cowboys TWICE
8-8 Eagles
5-11 Skins

Even the "easy" part of that schedule I just listed was against divisional rivals Eagles, Cowboys, Skins (never easy) and "across-town" rivals Jets (never easy).
RE: RE: I have a similar feeling that somehow they will finish out strong  
Leg of Theismann : 11/20/2019 1:37 am : link
In comment 14684270 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
In comment 14683509 Dinger said:


Quote:


I think its because the talent IS there and, really, all they've been missing is some semblance of defense to win a game or two here or there. I think they play the eagles close and probably get blown out by the packers, but the rest could be wins and I think that will be enough for Shurmur to stick around, unfortunately, in my opinion.



There is NO talent. Good God man.


Agreed. I'm fucking tired of seeing people saying this team is just a play or 2 away from winning this or that game this year. 1) You could say that about any NFL game, 2) No they are not. They are often a dozen plays away from winning these games. They are a few plays away from... being a few plays away (as Carl Banks put it so well). The road to getting from a dozen plays away to just 1-2 plays away is a long haul unto itself! And then getting from 1-2 plays away to actually beating teams is another long road. So, no. You can look all you want at this or that game and say "well I THOUGHT we were in the game for the 1st half of the Patriots game"... good for you, most teams the Patriots play are "in it" in the first half, doesn't mean those teams come anywhere close to beating them.
One last thing  
Leg of Theismann : 11/20/2019 1:45 am : link
Part of the reason I'm so passionate about this is because I see similarities to things some posters are saying and the way I often felt when I was first a Vanderbilt football fan. I remember seasons where they went 2-9 and I watched every game and would get excited because they would go into halftime only down 10-7 against LSU or Alabama. I would think "Wow, they really have a chance at beating a top 10 team today! They are really putting up the good fight! This team is right around the corner from being a real winner!" And then the 2nd half would come and maybe they wouldn't necessarily get blown out but they would lose by 2 or 3 touchdowns. That's exactly what the Patriots-Giants game this year reminded me of. Sure NYG put up a good fight that night, but they were really never close to winning that game. Did any of you ever really feel that this offense was going to make that big play (or any big play) at any point in the ball game to beat the Patriots? I certainly never felt that, as much of a tease as that game was.

Just because we aren't getting blown out 40-0 every week doesn't mean we're "just a play or 2 away from beating the Pats". We can't even beat the damn Cardinals or Lions or Jets or anybody at this point. THAT is the true measure, is can this team actually WIN games? Hanging in there is just that: hanging in there. It does not necessarily correspond to being a talented, winning football team. The NFL the differences between teams and talent are actually so miniscule that it is rare to see teams just get blown out every week, so you have to look a little deeper than just the score in the middle of the 3rd quarter of some game several weeks back to get a gauge as to how close this team actually is..
RE: When..  
ron mexico : 11/20/2019 5:54 am : link
In comment 14683952 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the idea that not signing Collins or Richburg were the right moves cannot be agreed upon, you just have to face the fact that some posters will go to any lengths to not give any credit at all to the organization and will just continue to batter the board with bullshit.


Our secondary and our o line sucks. They would help

I rather be overpaying these guys than guys we are currently overpaying Doing absolutely nothing
I guarantee if Collins was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/20/2019 8:11 am : link
resigned, that would go as a mark against Gettleman (shocker). what isn't shocking is thinking that it would be a good move.
RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Chris684 : 11/20/2019 8:30 am : link
In comment 14684274 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14683904 Go Terps said:


Quote:


There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.



You are what your record says you are. You can point to this or that play in any given game and say they could have been 7-9, I could point to this or that play and say they could have been 11-5. They were what they were: 13-7 NFC East Champs, NFC Champs and NFL Champs against a very, very tough schedule.

Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter), and the 2012 Giants started 6-2 and then collapsed. I agree 2008 regular season was a peak of the Coughlin Giants, but I truly believe the end of 2011 was a legitimate peak unto itself that was equal to the 2007-end thru 2008-beginning peak.

That team started off the year a very respectable 5-2... and then went 8-5 against THIS schedule (ranked in order of regular season schedule):

15-1 Packers TWICE
13-3 Patriots TWICE
13-3 49ers TWICE
13-3 Saints (in Superdome where Saints were undefeated that year)
10-6 Falcons
8-8 Jets
8-8 Cowboys TWICE
8-8 Eagles
5-11 Skins

Even the "easy" part of that schedule I just listed was against divisional rivals Eagles, Cowboys, Skins (never easy) and "across-town" rivals Jets (never easy).


L o T great post!

I've made that same argument on BBI many times throughout the years.

But hey, these are Giants fans you're talking about so why not stick your nose up at a Super Bowl title?

Eli Manning is chopped liver around here.
RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 8:37 am : link
In comment 14684274 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14683904 Go Terps said:


Quote:


There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.



You are what your record says you are. You can point to this or that play in any given game and say they could have been 7-9, I could point to this or that play and say they could have been 11-5. They were what they were: 13-7 NFC East Champs, NFC Champs and NFL Champs against a very, very tough schedule.

Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter), and the 2012 Giants started 6-2 and then collapsed. I agree 2008 regular season was a peak of the Coughlin Giants, but I truly believe the end of 2011 was a legitimate peak unto itself that was equal to the 2007-end thru 2008-beginning peak.

That team started off the year a very respectable 5-2... and then went 8-5 against THIS schedule (ranked in order of regular season schedule):

15-1 Packers TWICE
13-3 Patriots TWICE
13-3 49ers TWICE
13-3 Saints (in Superdome where Saints were undefeated that year)
10-6 Falcons
8-8 Jets
8-8 Cowboys TWICE
8-8 Eagles
5-11 Skins

Even the "easy" part of that schedule I just listed was against divisional rivals Eagles, Cowboys, Skins (never easy) and "across-town" rivals Jets (never easy).


Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.
RE: I guarantee if Collins was..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 8:41 am : link
In comment 14684346 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
resigned, that would go as a mark against Gettleman (shocker). what isn't shocking is thinking that it would be a good move.

A few exceptions in this thread notwithstanding, I feel like most of the criticism directed toward DG about Collins was just that he didn't trade him in 2018 (why wait to put your eggs in the comp pick basket when you can achieve certainty sooner?), not that he didn't re-sign him. So yes, I think you're right that people would criticize DG for resigning Collins if Collins was playing poorly.

As it relates to Richburg though, the reality is, Gettleman DID overpay an OL free agent that offseason, and determined that Halapio was a better option for OC (because he also traded Jones in addition to letting Richburg walk, so I think it's fair to lump both of those decisions together as related to having faith in Halapio as an option at OC).

Gettleman's overpaid OL free agent has severely underperformed. Gettleman's preferred OC has also underperformed. The guy who he let walk in favor of Solder's money and Halapio's playing time has outperformed both of them since then.

All of that is 100% 20/20 hindsight, there's no denying that. But this isn't intended to be a second guess so much as a look back at the other associated OL construction decisions made that were related to letting Richburg walk. It's hard to give Gettleman credit for parting ways with Richburg when the other decisions that he made on the OL in the wake of that were so underwhelming.

And that's not to say that BBI knows better than Gettleman, but we're not supposed to - we're doing this for free as a hobby in our free time. This is his career. And he's the one who was broadly proclaiming his intention to go get some "hog mollies" up front. Shouldn't he be able to do a better job of scouting the upgrades that were supposedly going to fix the OL?

Might as well be trotting Ian Allen and Jeff Hatch out there.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 8:42 am : link
In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14684274 Leg of Theismann said:


Quote:


In comment 14683904 Go Terps said:


Quote:


There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.



You are what your record says you are. You can point to this or that play in any given game and say they could have been 7-9, I could point to this or that play and say they could have been 11-5. They were what they were: 13-7 NFC East Champs, NFC Champs and NFL Champs against a very, very tough schedule.

Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter), and the 2012 Giants started 6-2 and then collapsed. I agree 2008 regular season was a peak of the Coughlin Giants, but I truly believe the end of 2011 was a legitimate peak unto itself that was equal to the 2007-end thru 2008-beginning peak.

That team started off the year a very respectable 5-2... and then went 8-5 against THIS schedule (ranked in order of regular season schedule):

15-1 Packers TWICE
13-3 Patriots TWICE
13-3 49ers TWICE
13-3 Saints (in Superdome where Saints were undefeated that year)
10-6 Falcons
8-8 Jets
8-8 Cowboys TWICE
8-8 Eagles
5-11 Skins

Even the "easy" part of that schedule I just listed was against divisional rivals Eagles, Cowboys, Skins (never easy) and "across-town" rivals Jets (never easy).



Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.

BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers as though this is the only place where people think Rodgers is a good QB.

What a joke.
You're missing the point..  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 8:43 am : link
.
RE: You're missing the point..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14684369 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.

I guess I am. Was the point that 2010 was the last time your perennial 10-6 preseason prediction wound up being correct?
RE: RE: You're missing the point..  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14684370 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14684369 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


.


I guess I am. Was the point that 2010 was the last time your perennial 10-6 preseason prediction wound up being correct?


Hopefully when I make it again next year.
A poster..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/20/2019 8:49 am : link
makes a 10-6 prediction every year without commentary, and he takes shit constantly for it.

That's what the state of BBI has become.

Posters are actually mocked for not having a permanent cloud of anger

It's way beyond the pale at this point.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Drewcon40 : 11/20/2019 8:51 am : link
Go Terps said
Quote:
There had to have been a dozen single plays that would have kept them out of the playoffs had just one gone the other way. Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona? Romo missing Miles Austin? Ballard's ridiculous catch in New England?

The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.



You are what your record says you are. You can point to this or that play in any given game and say they could have been 7-9, I could point to this or that play and say they could have been 11-5. They were what they were: 13-7 NFC East Champs, NFC Champs and NFL Champs against a very, very tough schedule.

Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter), and the 2012 Giants started 6-2 and then collapsed. I agree 2008 regular season was a peak of the Coughlin Giants, but I truly believe the end of 2011 was a legitimate peak unto itself that was equal to the 2007-end thru 2008-beginning peak.

That team started off the year a very respectable 5-2... and then went 8-5 against THIS schedule (ranked in order of regular season schedule):

15-1 Packers TWICE
13-3 Patriots TWICE
13-3 49ers TWICE
13-3 Saints (in Superdome where Saints were undefeated that year)
10-6 Falcons
8-8 Jets
8-8 Cowboys TWICE
8-8 Eagles
5-11 Skins

Even the "easy" part of that schedule I just listed was against divisional rivals Eagles, Cowboys, Skins (never easy) and "across-town" rivals Jets (never easy).


Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.


Great post gentlemen,

I always thought that 2008 team was the best offense I had seen in quite some time. Even though it ended ugly. Umenyiora injured in pre-season and Plaxico's incident. 2010 was the same thing, that Eagles game was a killer but if I recall correctly, that was huge for playoffs.

I always point (and to be fair someone else posted this awhile back). There were 4 or 5 weeks in 2012. The home game against Pittsburgh after Hurricane Sandy is the game I think of in retrospect that this team started to trend down. They had two impressive wins against Green Bay and New Orleans at home but I can remember the actual play in that Monday night against Washington. I think Eli was driving in the 4th quarter and B. Unicorn Bennett makes a catch for 1st down but Lochlear (I think) gets called for holding.

Man, I miss the days when November games meant something.
Holy shit. Britt just said something  
Overseer : 11/20/2019 8:58 am : link
self-aware, self-deprecating, and even mildly amusing. A fairly shocking contrast to the whiny, unhinged petulance weíve come to expect.

Quote:
Hopefully when I make it again next year.

That was funny.

RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:00 am : link
In comment 14684274 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter)


Wrong. They were not eliminated by the Eagles collapse. They were eliminated by getting their asses kicked by the Packers the next week 45-17.

And let's throw a little context in 2011, shall we? They somehow lost to the 5-11 Redskins twice, and neither game was close. They lost to the Eagles at home with Vince fucking Young starting at QB. They lost at home to a crappySeahawks team that played Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst at QB.

It's fantastic that they got hot late in the year and ripped off a bunch of wins against very good teams, but it doesn't change the fact that the team was 7-7 after week 15 with some losses against wretched teams.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:02 am : link
In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.


Uh huh. What happened when the Giants played the Packers in 2010?
i love the "what ifs" when it comes to yearly records  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 9:03 am : link
lets do them for every team next, should make for a great thread.

Its sports, what ifs are the entire point of the unpredictability. Who gives a shit if the Giants weren't a dominant team on their way to winning a title?
RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14684388 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.



Uh huh. What happened when the Giants played the Packers in 2010?


Wouldn't have mattered. Giants win that Eagles game and the Packers would have been eliminated regardless of what happened the following week when they played.
The 2010 Team Was a Mess  
Lambuth_Special : 11/20/2019 9:06 am : link
Sure, they could light up the scoreboard when things were going well, but they were sloppy, undisciplined, and mentally fragile like most Giants teams from 2009-2015 save for 2011.

The Eagles game was a fitting result for a team that dropped games at home to weak Titans and Cowboys teams through pure carelessness. It was also a systemic debacle, from the hands team not being on the field during the onside kick, to Matt Dodge punting in the middle of the field, to Kenny Phillips going for a kill shot on Brent Celek and letting walk into the endzone, to Derek Hagan running the wrong read-route on a critical 3rd down play to ice the game.

Like much of 2011, Eli was the only player holding that flimsy team together on that day, throwing for four touchdowns and a critical first down on a 4th quarter drive before Hagan effed up.

So, I don't believe the 2010 team was a great squad that had a bad eight minutes, but rather those 8 minutes were just waiting to happen on how the season had played out to that point.
Gatorade brought up the Brett Jones trade above.  
cosmicj : 11/20/2019 9:07 am : link
That struck me as a strange roster move when it happened. I'm not claiming this is some franchise altering trade, obviously, but it's a weird one which I think points to the lack of attention to detail that permeates this franchise.

Why trade a capable backup OL after you've lost your starting C in free agency for a meaningless late round OL? (This on a 2018 team that was supposed to compete.) Why not keep Jones for depth? At this point, he might very well hypothetically be the best center on the roster. So why trade him for peanuts?

Again, a minor decision, but one that doesn't add up.
it doesn't matter what the 2010 team was or wasn't.  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:08 am : link
It's just being used to counter the argument that seemingly only the Giants benefit from being a hair away by way of lucky breaks while other teams seemingly earn what they get.
RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Chris684 : 11/20/2019 9:09 am : link
In comment 14684387 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14684274 Leg of Theismann said:


Quote:


Also don't forget the 2010 Giants went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs (due to Vick/Jackson scoring like 38 points in one quarter)



Wrong. They were not eliminated by the Eagles collapse. They were eliminated by getting their asses kicked by the Packers the next week 45-17.

And let's throw a little context in 2011, shall we? They somehow lost to the 5-11 Redskins twice, and neither game was close. They lost to the Eagles at home with Vince fucking Young starting at QB. They lost at home to a crappySeahawks team that played Tarvaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst at QB.

It's fantastic that they got hot late in the year and ripped off a bunch of wins against very good teams, but it doesn't change the fact that the team was 7-7 after week 15 with some losses against wretched teams.


Are you Skip Bayless with a keyboard?

We are all dumber for having to read this shit.
Oh, but in reality that game DID matter  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:09 am : link
And the Giants pulled a no-show
Again, the point remains....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:12 am : link
that Green Bay needed a miracle in a game they weren't even involved in to make the playoffs and ultimately go on to win the Superbowl.

A hair away.
RE: A poster..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14684376 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
makes a 10-6 prediction every year without commentary, and he takes shit constantly for it.

That's what the state of BBI has become.

Posters are actually mocked for not having a permanent cloud of anger

It's way beyond the pale at this point.

That's one way to look at it.

I suppose one might also say that a poster who makes the same prediction every single year without context, commentary, or variance related to that year's team loses some credibility when he then tries to claim that his is the voice of reason. Surely that logic isn't lost on you.

And that's without getting into that poster's tendency to take a victory lap whenever his other predictions or posts turn out to have even a shred of accuracy, like a single RB surpassing 300 carries.

I guess context is unimportant when you're trying to make a sweeping generalization to criticize your peers. But at least you can speak authoritatively on clouds of anger.
RE: Again, the point remains....  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14684403 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that Green Bay needed a miracle in a game they weren't even involved in to make the playoffs and ultimately go on to win the Superbowl.

A hair away.


Uh huh. And then they needed to beat the Giants the next week, which they did without breaking a sweat.
Good lord, you sure do remember a lot of my posts.  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:17 am : link
It's nice to have fans.
RE: Good lord, you sure do remember a lot of my posts.  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14684413 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
It's nice to have fans.

I have a good memory, that's all. I also remember the worst cafeteria lunch I ever had in middle school; that doesn't make me a fan of it.
Since you're sitting here trashing my predictions and seeming to hang  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:21 am : link
on them so much....

Does your good memory remember when you started a thread stating that despite you not agreeing with them, all the predictions I had been making after 2016 were accurate and came to be true while admitting your were wrong?

I'm not saying that for a victory lap, I'm saying it because that reminds me of a time when people were still actually discussing stuff rather than you chasing me from thread to thread and taunting me with things I got wrong.
How does..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/20/2019 9:22 am : link
a sole post of "10-6" done every single year either gain or lose credibility and who the fuck is putting credence in it?

Anyone who puts context into predictions that are often wildly inaccurate is the one wasting time and energy. I know there have been posters who only put 0-16 down. Should they be mocked?

seems like a stupid thing to mock people over - but then again, so is the whole "victory lap" shit. I mean, the board has an entire group of posters telling us daily that Shurmur and Gettleman are unfit to do their jobs and certain that they suck. And yet they look at themselves as the voices of reason - a victory lap for certain.

And if the team ends up turning things around next year, I'm sure the excuses will flow the other way. Maybe more fanciful shit about being lucky or the worst playoff team in history...
Would it be safe to say that I could go back if I had the time....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:23 am : link
or the want to, and go back and find a bunch of predictions from any and every poster on this board that they ultimately got wrong and go from thread to thread and throw it in their face? Could I do that?

Yeah, I could. But I don't.
I personally believe that I come to this board, try not to argue....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:27 am : link
and just state my points mostly with what I believe to be logical arguments and opinions.

Does it get emotional sometimes? Yes. Do I get drunk sometimes during the game and post with more emotion than I should? Yes. But most days, I pretty much just state my points with what I believe to be logical arguments to back them up.

You think I'm a shit poster of no value to the site? Fine. I don't really care. I've been here a long time.
Through good and bad. I'm going to continue to do what I do. You feel free to continue to do what you do.
I will continue to believe every season that the Giants can....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:29 am : link
and WANT to turn it around. And I will continue to think they are working towards 10-6. And with a few hair away lucky breaks, we'll get there. Maybe next year will be the year.
RE: How does..  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 9:30 am : link
In comment 14684427 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I mean, the board has an entire group of posters telling us daily that Shurmur and Gettleman are unfit to do their jobs and certain that they suck.


That dynamic duo is 7-19 with the Giants. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on the optimist crew to provide evidence that they are not unfit and do not suck at their jobs.
I have great memories of UConn beating Butler  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 9:32 am : link
to win a title, don't give a FUCK that they weren't that great of a team.
I have a good memory  
The_Boss : 11/20/2019 9:35 am : link
Of the time this summer when I said everything still sucks, nothingís really changed, and weíre headed for a 4-5 win season.....


.....just saying
Awesome, you win?  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:36 am : link
?
RE: RE: How does..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/20/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14684440 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14684427 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


I mean, the board has an entire group of posters telling us daily that Shurmur and Gettleman are unfit to do their jobs and certain that they suck.



That dynamic duo is 7-19 with the Giants. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on the optimist crew to provide evidence that they are not unfit and do not suck at their jobs.


You don't get it. It isn't about providing evidence contrary. It is that nearly every thread is overrun with the same people talking about how shitty Shurmur and Gettleman are. Every football related thread ends up with a minimum of one snide remark about the coach and/or GM. And that's the best case scenario. The worst case are threads specifically started to bash them.

I'm an optimist and not very fond of Shurmur. Does repeating that he sucks over and over again magically bring some enlightenment? Does it make you feel better? If it does, it surely isn't making itself apparent.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
rsjem1979 : 11/20/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14684390 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14684388 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.



Uh huh. What happened when the Giants played the Packers in 2010?



Wouldn't have mattered. Giants win that Eagles game and the Packers would have been eliminated regardless of what happened the following week when they played.


Well that's simply not true. It allowed the Packers to control their own destiny, but it would not have eliminated them. For one thing, they still had a Week 15 game to play, they were 8-5.

Even after the Packers lost to New England (with Matt Flynn starting in place of Rodgers) they were 8-6. A Giants win would have put them at 10-4 and the Eagles at 9-5.

GB would have won tiebreakers over the Eagles and Bucs. Any Eagles loss would have gotten the Packers in at 10-6. If anything, the Bucs losing at home in Week 15 had as much to do with the Packers getting in as the Giants blowing that game vs Philly.
RE: Awesome, you win?  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14684450 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
?


Yeah that's what I don't get. Do I somehow get something out of being right about my team sucking? Work bonus? Win the lottery? Brag about on a date?
RE: I personally believe that I come to this board, try not to argue....  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14684434 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and just state my points mostly with what I believe to be logical arguments and opinions.

Does it get emotional sometimes? Yes. Do I get drunk sometimes during the game and post with more emotion than I should? Yes. But most days, I pretty much just state my points with what I believe to be logical arguments to back them up.

You think I'm a shit poster of no value to the site? Fine. I don't really care. I've been here a long time.
Through good and bad. I'm going to continue to do what I do. You feel free to continue to do what you do.

I don't think you're a shit poster at all. I think you're a very good poster who happens to have a number of blind spots when it comes to objective criticism of this franchise, which just so happens to be the exact same thing that would apply accurately to a number of posters here, including myself (at least the blind spots part, I can't speak for whether or not anyone thinks I'm a valued poster).

As for the 10-6 thing, and this is more for FMiC who seems to be deciding that this is his white knight moment for the day, my point is just that it might be indicative of an unwillingness to see the franchise's weaknesses even when they're staring you in the face. See above WRT blind spots. We all have them - that one seems to be yours.

I bust your balls about it because I do consider your voice to be one of value, but also one that I tend to find on the opposite viewpoint from my own.

At the end of the day though, I do look forward to your 10-6 predictions being wrong in the other direction, even if we disagree along the way about how this team should go about getting to that point.
I donít look at 2011 as a fluke..  
Sean : 11/20/2019 9:43 am : link
The team was on the decline, but still a valid contender. They went into NE during the regular season and won. They followed 2011 with a 9-7 season & preceded it with a 10-6 season.

The Giants were never dominant from 2005-2012 (except for the 25-5 stretch in 07/08).

That era of the Giants was always dangerous, never dominant. Which to be honest, that was Eli as a QB.

Giants should make no apologies for 2011. This wasnít the 2005 Steelers beating the Seahawks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14684457 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 14684390 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14684388 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.



Uh huh. What happened when the Giants played the Packers in 2010?



Wouldn't have mattered. Giants win that Eagles game and the Packers would have been eliminated regardless of what happened the following week when they played.



Well that's simply not true. It allowed the Packers to control their own destiny, but it would not have eliminated them. For one thing, they still had a Week 15 game to play, they were 8-5.

Even after the Packers lost to New England (with Matt Flynn starting in place of Rodgers) they were 8-6. A Giants win would have put them at 10-4 and the Eagles at 9-5.

GB would have won tiebreakers over the Eagles and Bucs. Any Eagles loss would have gotten the Packers in at 10-6. If anything, the Bucs losing at home in Week 15 had as much to do with the Packers getting in as the Giants blowing that game vs Philly.


It came down to the final game of the season. Bears vs. Packers. Bears win? Giants go to the playoffs. Packers win? They go. The Packers won, so they controlled their own destiny, yes. But they needed help still. The Giants hang on to beat the Eagles and everything else goes the same, the Giants are in the playoffs and the Packers are not.
RE: I donít look at 2011 as a fluke..  
Chris684 : 11/20/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14684462 Sean said:
Quote:
The team was on the decline, but still a valid contender. They went into NE during the regular season and won. They followed 2011 with a 9-7 season & preceded it with a 10-6 season.

The Giants were never dominant from 2005-2012 (except for the 25-5 stretch in 07/08).

That era of the Giants was always dangerous, never dominant. Which to be honest, that was Eli as a QB.

Giants should make no apologies for 2011. This wasnít the 2005 Steelers beating the Seahawks.


This is a very reasonable take.

Good post.
That..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/20/2019 9:45 am : link
Eagles comeback over the Giants was referenced often as allowing the Packers to stay in playoff contention. It was one of the story lines repeated during their playoff run.
RE: Awesome, you win?  
The_Boss : 11/20/2019 9:48 am : link
In comment 14684450 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
?


Was meant to be a joke....a fail I guess....

👎🏽
And seriously, I don't even care about 2010....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:48 am : link
like every Giants team, even the Superbowl ones, that team was flawed too.

But let's not act like every Superbowl winner didn't get some lucky breaks to get there. Some do. The Patriots are once again the outlier. But some teams do just dominate all season and go on to win it. But a lot of times though, it's the scrappy really good team with grit that people don't see coming.
And a lot of years the Giants have been that scrappy team with grit.  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 9:50 am : link
Even a lot of the non Superbowl campaigns.

Never the best, but always just good enough to have a shot to take down the best.
I'm with Britt and UConn here  
figgy2989 : 11/20/2019 9:55 am : link
It has gotten to the point on BBI where we are now finding ways to discredit Super Bowl winning years?

If 2011 was a "fluke", I bet there are 31 other teams who would sign up for a "fluke" Super Bowl Championship every year.
RE: RE: RE: How does..  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 9:56 am : link
In comment 14684455 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14684440 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14684427 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


I mean, the board has an entire group of posters telling us daily that Shurmur and Gettleman are unfit to do their jobs and certain that they suck.



That dynamic duo is 7-19 with the Giants. I'm afraid the burden of proof is on the optimist crew to provide evidence that they are not unfit and do not suck at their jobs.



You don't get it. It isn't about providing evidence contrary. It is that nearly every thread is overrun with the same people talking about how shitty Shurmur and Gettleman are. Every football related thread ends up with a minimum of one snide remark about the coach and/or GM. And that's the best case scenario. The worst case are threads specifically started to bash them.

I'm an optimist and not very fond of Shurmur. Does repeating that he sucks over and over again magically bring some enlightenment? Does it make you feel better? If it does, it surely isn't making itself apparent.

Maybe it's giving people a chance to vent when a part of their life that they prefer to use as an escape from everyday life frustration is actually causing more frustration of its own?

I don't get why it's surprising that posters might become repetitive about Shurmur and/or Gettleman sucking - the team does suck! And thus far, there have been quite a few glaring missteps in what was supposed to be a restoration of this franchise's competitiveness.

Shurmur has been a major disappointment as a HC but at least you can make the case that to the extent that he was favored as a candidate for his ability to work with QBs, Jones appears to be on a very positive and promising track. Gettleman, on the other hand, was very clear about his three pillars of success, none of which have improved with much consistency since he took over.

Something isn't working. Maybe it's just not working yet. Maybe it never will. Maybe Gettleman's plan is antiquated. Maybe his plan is fine but the Giants' infrastructure under him is as flawed as it was under Reese. Maybe his roster moves are hamstrung by a poor coaching staff. Maybe the coaching staff is stuck trying to make it work with players that aren't as talented as the scouting department thought.

But no can definitively say that we're on the right track when there's no evidence (yet, anyway) of that.
RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
rsjem1979 : 11/20/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14684464 Britt in VA said:
Quote:



Well that's simply not true. It allowed the Packers to control their own destiny, but it would not have eliminated them. For one thing, they still had a Week 15 game to play, they were 8-5.

Even after the Packers lost to New England (with Matt Flynn starting in place of Rodgers) they were 8-6. A Giants win would have put them at 10-4 and the Eagles at 9-5.

GB would have won tiebreakers over the Eagles and Bucs. Any Eagles loss would have gotten the Packers in at 10-6. If anything, the Bucs losing at home in Week 15 had as much to do with the Packers getting in as the Giants blowing that game vs Philly.



It came down to the final game of the season. Bears vs. Packers. Bears win? Giants go to the playoffs. Packers win? They go. The Packers won, so they controlled their own destiny, yes. But they needed help still. The Giants hang on to beat the Eagles and everything else goes the same, the Giants are in the playoffs and the Packers are not.


That's not what you said, and even so it's still not true. The Eagles lost their last two games. The Giants losing to Philly did not get the Packers in the playoffs. Losing in GB kept the Giants out.
Alright.  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 10:03 am : link
I admit defeat. The Giants are the only teams in history that got help to get their Superbowls.

Everybody else dominated their way in and did everything they were supposed to do with little to no help from anything else.
RE: RE: RE: How does..  
Greg from LI : 11/20/2019 10:10 am : link
In comment 14684455 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Does repeating that he sucks over and over again magically bring some enlightenment? Does it make you feel better? If it does, it surely isn't making itself apparent.


It's not about enlightenment, or trying to feel better. Delusionally insisting that "the needle is pointing up!" and "I love DG's plan!" might make some people feel better, but it doesn't alter the reality that the team is garbage and the GM and coach have been massive disappointments.

I'm not big on deluding myself. Doesn't mean I'm not optimistic when I have reasons to be optimistic. You're a regular on Yankee threads, Fats - am I a pessimist about the Yankees? No, I'm not.....because I have good reasons to believe in the Yankees. The reality there is that the Yankees are a damned good team, Brian Cashman (despite the stones thrown by the likes of Randal) is a very good GM, and I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

I used to feel that way about the Giants too. That's long over now. They have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the franchise, as currently constituted, is a bumbling, incompetent disaster.
No one is saying give the title back  
Go Terps : 11/20/2019 10:13 am : link
The point is the 2011 Giants should not have made ownership feel as if the organization was a well oiled machine. An astute eye would have seen problems.

And to answer UConn's pay about what you get for being right about the team sucking: you get to have your posts taken seriously.

There's a bunch of you guys that would compliment the Giants if they drafted an inanimate carbon rod, and your blind optimism needs to be taken with a quarry's worth of salt.
*pay = post  
Go Terps : 11/20/2019 10:14 am : link
.
Both the Giants and Rangers are rebuilding.  
BrettNYG10 : 11/20/2019 10:20 am : link
I'm really only concerned about the Giants. I expected bad years from both. But the process has been much different. The Giants haven't shown enough for me to trust them.
RE: No one is saying give the title back  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14684502 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The point is the 2011 Giants should not have made ownership feel as if the organization was a well oiled machine. An astute eye would have seen problems.

And to answer UConn's pay about what you get for being right about the team sucking: you get to have your posts taken seriously.

There's a bunch of you guys that would compliment the Giants if they drafted an inanimate carbon rod, and your blind optimism needs to be taken with a quarry's worth of salt.


I'll go deeper, and then what does that get you?

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't take a genius to know what's good content and what isn't. If you filter out the opinions of posters whom you don't take seriously, I wouldn't know it, doesn't seem like it.

In the end I strongly believe many on here like to hear themselves talk (type) and spending the day telling other posters who want to be optimistic that they are full of shit somehow gives them satisfaction. Maybe that's you, maybe it isn't, I have no idea. But its many on here, that's a fact.

Seems like an incredibly narcissistic waste of time.
UConn  
Go Terps : 11/20/2019 10:40 am : link
My interest is in trying to understand why this team sucks. And they do suck: that's an objective fact.

And the shouting down of the optimists is nothing. Try saying something critical of a popular player and see the reaction that gets you. And I'm not just talking about Beckham. Or try criticizing drafting a RB second overall, or questioning if a club legend should still be the QB.

When there's reason for optimism I'll be right there with everyone else. But right now optimism is not warranted, and can't be taken seriously.
RE: Alright.  
Dnew15 : 11/20/2019 11:05 am : link
In comment 14684489 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I admit defeat. The Giants are the only teams in history that got help to get their Superbowls.

Everybody else dominated their way in and did everything they were supposed to do with little to no help from anything else.


Don't give up - you're 100% correct. You still have to take the breaks and make it happen. The Giants did that - twice.

Eagles fans love to harp on the Giants two Super Bowl wins were "lucky", when I they're only Super Bowl win was one of the luckiest I have ever witnessed.

RE: UConn  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14684555 Go Terps said:
Quote:
My interest is in trying to understand why this team sucks. And they do suck: that's an objective fact.

And the shouting down of the optimists is nothing. Try saying something critical of a popular player and see the reaction that gets you. And I'm not just talking about Beckham. Or try criticizing drafting a RB second overall, or questioning if a club legend should still be the QB.

When there's reason for optimism I'll be right there with everyone else. But right now optimism is not warranted, and can't be taken seriously.


I think with most things its not what you (not you specifically) say its how you say it - and that's life not just BBI. Never had a problem with criticism, but some people can't do it without being an obnoxious blowhard. And to be fair, that's with some of the "optimists" too.

But it does make for challenging threads and leaves little reason to participate.
RE: No one is saying give the title back  
bigbluehoya : 11/20/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14684502 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The point is the 2011 Giants should not have made ownership feel as if the organization was a well oiled machine. An astute eye would have seen problems.


This nails the point for me, 100%.

There's no element of downplaying or apologizing for the titles.

Reminders that those NYG team weren't dominant for any protracted periods of time is simply a matter of acknowledging that the trophies don't make the approach/process (at an organizational level) unassailable.
.  
Go Terps : 11/20/2019 11:43 am : link
Would anyone here make the argument that the 2011 team was better than the 2008 team? Probably not too many. Mara easily could/should have said to himself, "This is an amazing title, but I know we're not as good as we were just 3 years ago. What is the cause?"

Knowing what we know about the Giants and their ability or willingness to look inward and ask tough questions, do we think Mara did this?
No  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 11:56 am : link
i think its clear Mara rode the wave. 2011 was a blessing and a curse. Great to get that 2nd Eli title but it led to far too many long leashes, if you will.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/20/2019 12:35 pm : link
I find it excusable to misjudge the team after 2011. It's possible we pick Cordy Glenn instead of Wilson in that draft if the team was more in-tune with its quality.

But we had 2012 where it was more obvious. 2013 was like being hit by a truck. And we've had 2014-2019 to right the ship since and haven't.
It's a long time since  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/20/2019 1:19 pm : link
but I feel like even here on BBI we all knew even during that season that the 2011 team was not some well-built juggernaut. They were dead last in rushing and the OL was a patchwork.

I thought even the fans recognized that season was the team being carried by Eli playing at his peak and having some incredible individual performers.
RE: I personally believe that I come to this board, try not to argue....  
micky : 11/20/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14684434 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and just state my points mostly with what I believe to be logical arguments and opinions.

Does it get emotional sometimes? Yes. Do I get drunk sometimes during the game and post with more emotion than I should? Yes. But most days, I pretty much just state my points with what I believe to be logical arguments to back them up.

You think I'm a shit poster of no value to the site? Fine. I don't really care. I've been here a long time.
Through good and bad. I'm going to continue to do what I do. You feel free to continue to do what you do.



This made me lol. It seem most of this forum does lmfao
Wow I can't believe this thread has gotten as long as it has and  
Dinger : 11/20/2019 2:30 pm : link
devolved into a grudge match.....
Going to the original premise of this thread and the be patient crowd, I was debating bringing up an intersport comparison. If you look at the Islanders and their current situation, they seem to have FINALLY AFTER DECADES OF SEARCHING found a competent GM and Head Coach at the same time. They have a BUNCH of number one draft picks who have bought into the system and similar to the Yankees, a GM who has only made minor tweaks via Free Agency (though I'm sure he would have like Tavares to stay). As a fan of this team, each time there was a change I'f hope that the new 'team' would find success and hopefully sustained success. Now I know they are only a year and a half in but they have show significant improvement, resiliency, and discipline and are definitely on the up tick.
This is what I had hoped for with the Giants almost two years ago. But things are different. Different 1st round picks, different coaching personalities, different sports. With the Giants, I go back and forth hoping for a win, seeing potential in the young guys believing in Gettlemans hog mollys mantra and Shurmurs offensive acumen. Then game day happens. And its been many games at least in the sport of football. if I saw some kind of consistent improvement in performance or game plan or even game management, I'd be more hopeful. Right now I feel like we are in the middle of the Mike Milbury years....thats not good.
RE: RE: I personally believe that I come to this board, try not to argue....  
Britt in VA : 11/20/2019 2:36 pm : link
In comment 14684844 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 14684434 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


and just state my points mostly with what I believe to be logical arguments and opinions.

Does it get emotional sometimes? Yes. Do I get drunk sometimes during the game and post with more emotion than I should? Yes. But most days, I pretty much just state my points with what I believe to be logical arguments to back them up.

You think I'm a shit poster of no value to the site? Fine. I don't really care. I've been here a long time.
Through good and bad. I'm going to continue to do what I do. You feel free to continue to do what you do.




This made me lol. It seem most of this forum does lmfao


If nothing else it's honest.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
ray in arlington : 11/20/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14684464 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14684457 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 14684390 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14684388 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.



Uh huh. What happened when the Giants played the Packers in 2010?



Wouldn't have mattered. Giants win that Eagles game and the Packers would have been eliminated regardless of what happened the following week when they played.



Well that's simply not true. It allowed the Packers to control their own destiny, but it would not have eliminated them. For one thing, they still had a Week 15 game to play, they were 8-5.

Even after the Packers lost to New England (with Matt Flynn starting in place of Rodgers) they were 8-6. A Giants win would have put them at 10-4 and the Eagles at 9-5.

GB would have won tiebreakers over the Eagles and Bucs. Any Eagles loss would have gotten the Packers in at 10-6. If anything, the Bucs losing at home in Week 15 had as much to do with the Packers getting in as the Giants blowing that game vs Philly.



It came down to the final game of the season. Bears vs. Packers. Bears win? Giants go to the playoffs. Packers win? They go. The Packers won, so they controlled their own destiny, yes. But they needed help still. The Giants hang on to beat the Eagles and everything else goes the same, the Giants are in the playoffs and the Packers are not.


Change the outcome of NYG-PHI, and GB still makes the playoffs in 2010. The Giants win the NFC East, Phil finishes 9-7, and GB takes SOV over TB.
The 2010 Packers weren't great either  
Go Terps : 11/20/2019 3:55 pm : link
The "what if" game is pretty tight with them too.

Now try playing the "what if" game with the '85 Bears...if the earth were struck by a comet in December 1985, the Bears wouldn't have won the Super Bowl. Not quite the same as the 2010 Packers, or the 2011 Giants.
RE: The 2010 Packers weren't great either  
Sean : 11/20/2019 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14684906 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The "what if" game is pretty tight with them too.

Now try playing the "what if" game with the '85 Bears...if the earth were struck by a comet in December 1985, the Bears wouldn't have won the Super Bowl. Not quite the same as the 2010 Packers, or the 2011 Giants.


Different eras to be fair. The Pats are really on an island with regards to sustainable dominance, itís amazing. I can see the Chiefs really fading once they pay Mahomes.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The 2011 team was a hair away from 7-9 or worse  
ray in arlington : 11/20/2019 4:37 pm : link
In comment 14684900 ray in arlington said:
Quote:
In comment 14684464 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14684457 rsjem1979 said:


Quote:


In comment 14684390 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14684388 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 14684362 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Also of note in regards to that 2010 team, if the Giants hold on and win that Eagles game, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs and BBI favorite Aaron Rodgers is still searching for a Superbowl title.

Talk about a hair away.



Uh huh. What happened when the Giants played the Packers in 2010?



Wouldn't have mattered. Giants win that Eagles game and the Packers would have been eliminated regardless of what happened the following week when they played.



Well that's simply not true. It allowed the Packers to control their own destiny, but it would not have eliminated them. For one thing, they still had a Week 15 game to play, they were 8-5.

Even after the Packers lost to New England (with Matt Flynn starting in place of Rodgers) they were 8-6. A Giants win would have put them at 10-4 and the Eagles at 9-5.

GB would have won tiebreakers over the Eagles and Bucs. Any Eagles loss would have gotten the Packers in at 10-6. If anything, the Bucs losing at home in Week 15 had as much to do with the Packers getting in as the Giants blowing that game vs Philly.



It came down to the final game of the season. Bears vs. Packers. Bears win? Giants go to the playoffs. Packers win? They go. The Packers won, so they controlled their own destiny, yes. But they needed help still. The Giants hang on to beat the Eagles and everything else goes the same, the Giants are in the playoffs and the Packers are not.



Change the outcome of NYG-PHI, and GB still makes the playoffs in 2010. The Giants win the NFC East, Phil finishes 9-7, and GB takes SOV over TB.


Also meant to write that if we give PHI a win against someone else to get to 10-6 with GB and TB, PHI is elimiated on conference record, and GB takes SOV over TB.
2011 title wasn't a fluke  
JonC : 11/20/2019 4:58 pm : link
but it did happen in a NFL that is much different and more of an even playing field than it was before Polian and all the rules changes struck, and then the next CBA(s).

I don't put an asterisk next to 2007 and 2011, but acknowledge the NFL brand of football is nothing like it was during its Golden Age.
What is overlooked in the let's let delusional optimism exist  
NoGainDayne : 11/20/2019 6:12 pm : link
is the fact that Mara clearly is in tune with the fans and makes decisions. It often looks on this board (evidenced by all the pro DG threads) that there is a fair argument to be made on both sides of the job he is doing right now.

It hasn't been a good job. It's possible it could turn into one, I've always acknowledged that possibility but a lot of the things in our approach seem to put us at a disadvantage here. There are plenty that saw this coming because of that and there is certainly nothing we are seeing to suggest that it was pessimism as opposed to realism.

If we want real change narratives based in overly optimistic viewpoints are counter productive to that. I'm also not a fan of the "we are stuck with this" attitude. Sure a change of heart in ownership and direction is also a lower probability event but the only way that happens is if the fan base kind of unites in wanting that and i'm not sure why there aren't more people on board to do that.

GD hit the nail on the head on the types but jesus, i'd think watching this clusterfuck continue to unfold would cause more attrition.
Back to the Corner