Let’s make a distinction here. It takes time to get build a foundation where the team is a legitimate contender, I think we all agree. That’s not the issue here. The issue is that what SHOULDN’T take years and years is raising the team out the basement. Making enough improvements that you aren’t among the 2, 3, or 4 worst teams in the league. Most teams will hit there for a year, often due to injuries. Right now, we can safely say there are two teams worse than us –The Bengals and the Skins, that’s it. Others seem to be at a similar level, but those are the only two who are comfortably worse. The Oakland Raiders, for example, seemed to be coming from a similar situation to us. They traded away multiple of their top players in exchange for picks. Where are they now? They have a winning record and are in the mix in division race. Why wasn’t all this time needed for them to improve?
Regarding the talent, though I do agree, it feels like drafts have improved, I’m going to take a wait and see on this. Truth is, this is the same spot we were in when this group took over, and it’s the same culprits –the Oline and defense. Two pick rich drafts and FA periods in, there has been opportunities to add talent and begin building a foundation. Regarding FA, JR’s drafts were horrible, but he did make some impactful acquisitions in FA and probably grades higher in this area than DG has at this point. A major contributing factor to why we remain where we are is that despite all the hog molly talk, the strategy for addressing the team’s biggest need -Oline- has been largely based on FA acquisitions, which have not panned out. Consequently, the Oline still requires much work requiring all of starter talent, youth, and depth. Defense wise –where are the playmakers? Dallas rebuilt their defense over the past couple drafts and has managed to add players who make plays for them. Our defensive “talent” has been largely invisible when it comes to making impact plays. Say what you want, but though players do need time to develop to a point of consistency, legit talent usually shows signs of playmaking ability early.
All that said, I would not be shocked to see this team finish stronger than people believe. No real reason for this, just a hunch. What it comes to, in my eyes is, we have six games to prove that the arrow is pointing up. That was the mission from the start –through ten games, we simply haven’t shown that. I’ll reserve judgement to see what happens down the stretch, but this is NOT a time for patience. The call is for urgency.
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been in the basement long? Ok.
What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.
Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.
SF Kyle Shanahan took over after the 2016 season.
In 2017 the 9ers were 6-10
In 2018 the 9ers were 4-12
John Lynch took over the same year.
Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?
Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?
Because Pat Shurmur is a proven loser with two separate teams, for one thing. For another thing, Mr. Magoo's moves have actually managed to make the team worse than the one he inherited.
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In comment 14683454 81_Great_Dane said:
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but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.
I agree with this.
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So ... do you think the fine folks in SF felt the same way about Kyle Shanahan going into this year? After all, the 49ers were 10-22 under excellent coaching prowess the two years prior.
Dnew, I am not arrogant enough to think I am 100% right. I will root wholeheartedly for Shurmur to prove me wrong, and honestly that's the best case scenario. But right now I am very down on this staff.
I guess those are the people who still blame Jerry Reese for everything under the sun two years after he was fired.
How could anyone, let alone someone as rich as this clown, think that a jughead hairstyle looks good?
I knew we were going to suck this year unless we pulled a Bills. There were about 20 or so teams of the last five years that hit the parameters of were we were at so I didn't think that was a good bet.
I thought there were few circumstances that I wouldnt want to give Shurmur a chance in 2020, but this guy is just a born loser. Unforgiveable mistakes for a guy that isn't a brillian innovative football mind. Sean Payton and Andy Reid he is not.
I'm sure with a young core, a bright spot at QB, and an influx of talent next year we'll probably make the playoffs, but Shurmur has shown me enough that that is his ceiling.
My nightmare scenario is we make the playoffs on DJ's rookie deal 2 outta the next 3 years in, put the heat on him to break through the glass ceiling once DJ signs his second contract and as we slowly lose the competitive advantage from that contract and Saquon ages losing out at our best chance for a Superbowl in the next 15 years unless DJ turns into an elite QB.
And the worst part is, I know once we are competitive again, as the Giants being the one thing I'm completely irrational about, I'll talk myself into Shurmur with a hey you never know type attitude as we become a winner again.
I guess those are the people who still blame Jerry Reese for everything under the sun two years after he was fired.
To be fair, Jerry Reese is a huge reason we are where we are right now. Not sure how anyone would deny that. Not saying you are.
And he drives like 300 miles to get it, too.
That he had to practically turn over the entire 53 man roster in under two seasons is the problem.
I guess those are the people who still blame Jerry Reese for everything under the sun two years after he was fired.
I guess you're in the group that expected the Giants to rebuild the entire roster in two offseasons which included finding the next franchise QB. Don't forget about the limited cap room Gettleman had to work with due to Reese.
Gettleman is not the main problem. The coaching staff needs to be replaced. I would not be opposed to Gettleman being replaced but I think he deserves one more season before making that decision.
...a team actually turns their losing ways into winning ways.
A re-build, in short, is only known in retrospect.
And, so far, who the hell knows what direction the Giants are headed and whether or not their re-build is truly underway?
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But this is Gettleman's roster. He's the one who selected almost every man on the roster at this point. He put this appalling OL together and claimed he had fixed it.
That he had to practically turn over the entire 53 man roster in under two seasons is the problem.
And he's done a real bang-up fucking job of it, hasn't he?
Maybe jettisoning Richburg and Kennard wasn't such a great idea either, huh?
I agree to be bad for this amount of time is not the norm for a good organization.
Some here have stopped watching or investing the energy they used to while rooting for this team.
I won’t do either of those, so I just keep hoping for the tide to turn, I guess patiently, don’t see what else as a fan who wants to stay invested can do
I think Hal Hunter is a big reason why the line has been so disappointing. Why Shurmur hired a guy who was the OL coach for a Colts team that allowed over 60 sacks is beyond me. I am not suggesting that Solder and Remmers are still solid players. Sy mentioned how some of Solder's struggles come from poor technique.
Will Hernandez has not shown any improvement which is a big surprise being that guards usually show their most improvement from year one to two. Zeitler gets a pass because he's been playing with an injured shoulder all season.
I honestly believe that if the Giants sign Jack Conklin and a solid center while also adding a LT in round 1 or 2 the line will still play below expectations due to Hal Hunter.
The Giants will have an opportunity to land a great OL coach in Bill Callahan this offseason. They better take advantage of that opportunity.
I don't know what strings are attached to firing Shurmur and his full staff, but unless that changes I don't think what any GM does is going to move the needle enough to notice. Its inexcusable that this many players either flatline or regress.
Kennard was a mistake to let go especially when they chose to sign Kareem Martin instead. I would put much of the blame for that decision on Bettcher.
He's well on his way to getting reaching the exalted Coughlin status where nothing is ever his fault, but anything that goes well is 100% due to him.
I guess I'm confused as to why those guys weren't part of the future but dreck like Solder and Ogletree were.
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were part of the future for NYG, better to let them go and keep your wallet shut.
I guess I'm confused as to why those guys weren't part of the future but dreck like Solder and Ogletree were.
The former were average or less NFL players who were drafted by the previous regime, and decided to be passed over for second NFL contracts. Kennard looks like a 4-3 SAM and not scheme diverse. Richburg was small and often over powered and injured. The latter were proven veterans who had played at reasonably high levels in the NFL. Solder also had some connection to the Giants from the past that appears to have been intact.
That is not to say the latter were worth the price DG paid for them. I think it was clear then it was a big roll of the dice, though I'm sure DG would say otherwise. To this point, they look like declining players who cashed in on us.
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In comment 14683515 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 14683454 81_Great_Dane said:
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but if Shurmur was the real deal, we'd be seeing more progress by now. That patience is mostly exhausted.
I agree with this.
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So ... do you think the fine folks in SF felt the same way about Kyle Shanahan going into this year? After all, the 49ers were 10-22 under excellent coaching prowess the two years prior.
Dnew, I am not arrogant enough to think I am 100% right. I will root wholeheartedly for Shurmur to prove me wrong, and honestly that's the best case scenario. But right now I am very down on this staff.
I think I'm right there with you - I like the way you put it.
I would just warn some of the BBI faithful that leaning on examples like K. Shanahan can be fools gold. Shoot - everyone thinks MacAdoo was an idiot and he took a team to the playoffs.
It takes a long time to build a consistent, perennial winner. The Giants had that for a period of time under Eli and TC. There are franchises that go decades with out the kind of success the Giants had in the not-so-distant past.
I've been harping on the idea that the NFL is a year-to-year league is a myth..and I still believe that to be true. The Giants have been bad for awhile now. And it seems insufferable. But this stretch is nothing compared to what some fan bases suffer through.
His 2018 offseason is looking pretty bad on nearly every measure however given that the draft is appearing more mediocre by the day.
The main problem I see with Gmen - and this has been said by GoTerps numerous times - is that there are too many voices on the managerial side. It's really tough to figure out who's advocating for what and if there is a settled direction at all.
I don't think it would've been too difficult to commit to a full rebuild. There's a wide chasm between outright saying you are not trying to lose and making blowhard claims of competing. All it takes is a little PR savvy.
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In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:
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been in the basement long? Ok.
What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.
Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.
SF Kyle Shanahan took over after the 2016 season.
In 2017 the 9ers were 6-10
In 2018 the 9ers were 4-12
John Lynch took over the same year.
Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?
In 2018, they lost their starting qb for the year in game 3 and played 8 games with their 3rd string qb. Despite that, they finished in the top half of the League in offense and defense and they got to draft Bosa. How do you see us doing with Tanney playing eight games?
In retrospect, everyone should have seen something like year coming for the Niners. The signs were there. The Niners are more like the 82-84 Giants than this abysmal team.
The Giants were a bad team and hired a new coach and the team is getting worse.
And allstarjim, hard to use the Rookie QB excuse when he’s been the best player on the team.
1) it’s not hard to evaluate Saquon ability. That doesn’t mean we maximized the pick. He was the WRONG pick.
2) is Hernandez actually good? Or is he just your league avg guard whose playing by they have nobody else.
3) Lauretta is gone. BJ Hill hasn’t done shit this yr and neither has Carter. Overall the jury is out on whether or not we botched that draft.
4) Are we anointing jones already?
5) Deandre Baker sucks so far. He cost us multiple picks.
The best draft pick so far has been Darius Slayton.
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In comment 14683655 JonC said:
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were part of the future for NYG, better to let them go and keep your wallet shut.
I guess I'm confused as to why those guys weren't part of the future but dreck like Solder and Ogletree were.
The former were average or less NFL players who were drafted by the previous regime, and decided to be passed over for second NFL contracts. Kennard looks like a 4-3 SAM and not scheme diverse. Richburg was small and often over powered and injured. The latter were proven veterans who had played at reasonably high levels in the NFL. Solder also had some connection to the Giants from the past that appears to have been intact.
That is not to say the latter were worth the price DG paid for them. I think it was clear then it was a big roll of the dice, though I'm sure DG would say otherwise. To this point, they look like declining players who cashed in on us.
"Evaluation" does not mean automatically getting rid of everyone from the prior regime so you can re-draft and FA the same positions with "your" guys. Young did not come in here and decimate the ranks as a strategy. Guys like Van Pelt, Carson, Martin, Benson became building blocks of a very successful team- one that made the playoffs in year 3 and knocked off the previous year's Conference champions in the playoffs- with the second string qb no less. But then again, Young knew his business and Gettleman thinks being the cigar-chewing GM from central casting is enough.
How we backfilled him is another story but doesn't discount what happened prior - he just wasn't very good here those last couple of years.
Yes, he struggled through injuries - I still have to question the thought process that saw no value in retaining him AND decided to replace him with the likes of Halapio and Pulley. If you want to move on from Richburg, OK. Find someone better then!
He then gets a nice restart in San Fran, plays in a new scheme with better coaching and an ascending roster. Its not shocking that he's playing better there. I can almost guarantee that money would be pissed down the drain if he stayed here, just like the other lineman we've signed since.
And then we go out and sign guys like Solder and trade picks for Ogletree.
Exactly so. It's aggravating when we're stuck with one of the worst centers in football because the Giants were wrong about Richburg.
I was against the Ogletree move early on, though. And I was sad to see Kennard go.
Outside of Jones, I'm not seeing enough to think DG is doing a job. And I think Shurmur is atrocious.
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Seeing players go elsewhere and succeed is frustrating and suggests a failure somewhere, and maybe even in multiple facets - self-scouting, development
Exactly so. It's aggravating when we're stuck with one of the worst centers in football because the Giants were wrong about Richburg.
I'm not sure why you are taking this angle. Every single one of our lineman isn't playing well or has regressed. What on earth makes you think Richburg plays well here?
Personally, I don't want to invest in anymore lineman until the entire staff is gone. Its a fucking waste.
Plenty of Giants players complained about Parcells and Coughlin. They were able to meet many of them head on and work through conflict.
They beat the Eagles in Philly (which is the last time they won a meaningful game at the Linc hahaha!) They beat New England in a classic at Foxborough. They beat Dallas twice, including in that epic JPP game. That was all before the arguable "lightning in a bottle" post-season.
The Cruz/Nicks/Manningham trio was legitimately excellent. Man I still weep for the baller Nicks' career ruined by injury.
About the only things "flukish" about that run were the hail mary in Green Bay (but NY dominated that game even without it) and the fact that Ted Ginn was out for San Francisco, leading to some serendipitous special teams breaks for the Giants. I think there was also a dubious Bradshaw (non)fumble in the Super Bowl when forward progress was ruled (?), but can't remember if 07 or 11...
"Flukish", I would say, was 2016. Really just not a great team. Spending spree in free agency that brought the great Jenkins (that year), good Snacks, and sometimes good Vernon. Lots of bounces went the Giants' way + multiple Beckham slants to the house led to post-season appearance where NY was promptly embarrassed by a far superior and more serious team.
--
Regardless, the New York Giants are now a joke and a laughing stock. I suspect more and more of the fanbase is experiencing apathy, even if subconsciously. I can tell you that I felt zero, and I mean ZERO emotional difference between the start & conclusion of the Jets game.
The team is fully & decidedly in "prove it" mode. "Potential", "better drafting", "impending cap space", "top RB in football" (*Dalvin Cook, by the way)...blah blah fucking blah.
Win some God damn football games you flailing & ineffectual embarrassing trainwreck of an NFL franchise.
You're absolutely right - signing Jon Halapio was the smart play.
this is not a good team, we expected the OL to be better, sure. you could argue that the W/L difference is due to bad coaching and shurmur certainly doesn't inspire confidence.
more directly, i think it is due to a rookie QB whose interception and two fumbles gave the cardinals 17 points, and whose strip-sack-fumble gave the jets a defensive TD, and whose fumble v the lions resulted in a defensive TD.
they lost each of those three games by a TD or less.
we expected the defense to suck with all the youth. but jones is also a very real problem and gives the other team points regularly and it is no surprise they lose with these kinds of giveaways because the defense isn't good enough to overcome those kinds of mistakes by the offense.
but hey, we all expected rookie growing pains, right?
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In comment 14683577 UberAlias said:
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In comment 14683521 robbieballs2003 said:
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been in the basement long? Ok.
What I laugh at is seeing people use SF as some great model of running a franchise. They have drafted at the top of the draft for years. They handed out some bad contracts like McKinnon. When you are in salary cap hell and are void of talent then, yes, it takes years to turn a team around. The book is not yet written on Gettleman but when people argue some of his moves it is like they expected him to bat 1.000. No GM bats 1.000. There will always be hits and misses.
Um, that's because prior attempts under previous leadership FAILED. This current GM/HC have been there how long? It should not take years and years to get off the floor. Not with the right people.
SF Kyle Shanahan took over after the 2016 season.
In 2017 the 9ers were 6-10
In 2018 the 9ers were 4-12
John Lynch took over the same year.
Why should we not be giving Shurmur and DG another year if this is the model everyone wants to compare the NYG to?
This shit again? In 2017, SF won 6 of their last 7 games. You see us doing that this season?
In 2018, they lost their starting qb for the year in game 3 and played 8 games with their 3rd string qb. Despite that, they finished in the top half of the League in offense and defense and they got to draft Bosa. How do you see us doing with Tanney playing eight games?
In retrospect, everyone should have seen something like year coming for the Niners. The signs were there. The Niners are more like the 82-84 Giants than this abysmal team.
You don't think that there's mitigating circumstances that MIGHT make Shurmur's record bad?
I thought losers where losers and excuses were like assholes - we all have them and they all stink?
Which one is it?