Let’s make a distinction here. It takes time to get build a foundation where the team is a legitimate contender, I think we all agree. That’s not the issue here. The issue is that what SHOULDN’T take years and years is raising the team out the basement. Making enough improvements that you aren’t among the 2, 3, or 4 worst teams in the league. Most teams will hit there for a year, often due to injuries. Right now, we can safely say there are two teams worse than us –The Bengals and the Skins, that’s it. Others seem to be at a similar level, but those are the only two who are comfortably worse. The Oakland Raiders, for example, seemed to be coming from a similar situation to us. They traded away multiple of their top players in exchange for picks. Where are they now? They have a winning record and are in the mix in division race. Why wasn’t all this time needed for them to improve?
Regarding the talent, though I do agree, it feels like drafts have improved, I’m going to take a wait and see on this. Truth is, this is the same spot we were in when this group took over, and it’s the same culprits –the Oline and defense. Two pick rich drafts and FA periods in, there has been opportunities to add talent and begin building a foundation. Regarding FA, JR’s drafts were horrible, but he did make some impactful acquisitions in FA and probably grades higher in this area than DG has at this point. A major contributing factor to why we remain where we are is that despite all the hog molly talk, the strategy for addressing the team’s biggest need -Oline- has been largely based on FA acquisitions, which have not panned out. Consequently, the Oline still requires much work requiring all of starter talent, youth, and depth. Defense wise –where are the playmakers? Dallas rebuilt their defense over the past couple drafts and has managed to add players who make plays for them. Our defensive “talent” has been largely invisible when it comes to making impact plays. Say what you want, but though players do need time to develop to a point of consistency, legit talent usually shows signs of playmaking ability early.
All that said, I would not be shocked to see this team finish stronger than people believe. No real reason for this, just a hunch. What it comes to, in my eyes is, we have six games to prove that the arrow is pointing up. That was the mission from the start –through ten games, we simply haven’t shown that. I’ll reserve judgement to see what happens down the stretch, but this is NOT a time for patience. The call is for urgency.
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After 4 years here he in no way deserved what the 49ers gave him and this place would have gone ballistic if we had outbid them. It's worked out ok for them but no chance of us paying that for him.
You're absolutely right - signing Jon Halapio was the smart play.
I didn't say anything about Halapio thank you very much.
But it's nonsense that signing Richburg for $50m would have been a good move or that Giants' brass wouldn't have been killed here for doing so after Richburg's performance in his four years here.
And B, the week 9 win in New England alone proves that was a pretty solid team at the very least. No question they took it to another level from the Jets game through SB46, but 2016 is a much better example of a fluky Giants team.
The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. It’s not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.
Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like he’s flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)
The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.
The excuse that will come out obviously will be....”we were forced to play a lot of 1-2 year players and as we all know, they make mistakes and need time to grow.”
I suppose their is truth in this......but, the question I think many of us are asking is this....are these guys being coached up properly? I am now having my doubts, especially on defense. I don’t see any improvement at all,....although I know Baker, Ballentine now, Love soon, Dexter, Xman, And BJ, Are all1-2 year players. They still look like tjey are confused in their assignments and some are not good at tackling.
On offense, at least DJ is doing well, save the fumbles, and he doesn’t really have many sexy toys to play with, with Shep, Saquon, Engram always out and both OTs suck.
I am now of the opinion that maybe a totally new coaching staff might just be what the doctor ordered. Look at Arizona....they are at least playing much better ball and are competitive. I’d like to be even where they are at today than where we are at.
As for DG....leave him alone...he’s done enough good things to offset the few bad decisions.
This is utter stupidity.
Did you exclude 2008 and 2016 from your range because they made the playoffs in those years by any chance?
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After 4 years here he in no way deserved what the 49ers gave him and this place would have gone ballistic if we had outbid them. It's worked out ok for them but no chance of us paying that for him.
You're absolutely right - signing Jon Halapio was the smart play.
Hindsight my ass. He missed one game his first three years here and was hurt his walk year. Since then, quel surprise, he's missed one game with the Niners. Meanwhile Mr. Filene's basement missed 14 games last season and one, probably misses the next game too, this season. What a bargain! oft-injured and ineffective!
I know you love your one-liners, but I'd love an explanation on this one.
The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. It’s not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.
Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like he’s flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)
The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.
I'm still searching for this team that had a quick turn around from perennial loser to perennial winner...
Did you exclude 2008 and 2016 from your range because they made the playoffs in those years by any chance?
I know I'm going to regret even bothering replying to your dumb ass, yapping away like a chihuahua the way you always do......the point was that, in a seven year stretch, that was the only season in which they made the playoffs. They didn't in the two years preceding 2011, and they didn't in the four years following 2011. If you want to cut down on the back end and say that it was in the middle of a five year period with no other playoff berths, fine. The point of the matter is that the teams immediately preceding and following that team couldn't even get a seat at the table, which is simply more evidence that said team was a fluky champion.
Now, run along like a good little doggie.
I know you love your one-liners, but I'd love an explanation on this one.
Why is it so hard for you to admit that Gettleman, as usual, blew this decision outta his ass? Was he wrong in his assessment of Richburg? Yes. Was he wrong in his assessment of Halapio? Dear God, yes.
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This is utter stupidity.
Did you exclude 2008 and 2016 from your range because they made the playoffs in those years by any chance?
I know I'm going to regret even bothering replying to your dumb ass, yapping away like a chihuahua the way you always do......the point was that, in a seven year stretch, that was the only season in which they made the playoffs. They didn't in the two years preceding 2011, and they didn't in the four years following 2011. If you want to cut down on the back end and say that it was in the middle of a five year period with no other playoff berths, fine. The point of the matter is that the teams immediately preceding and following that team couldn't even get a seat at the table, which is simply more evidence that said team was a fluky champion.
Now, run along like a good little doggie.
About the doggie thing, ok? You are a pretty weird guy and a big cry baby.
But anyway, talking about flukes, the 2010 NYG team that missed out on the playoffs due to 8 minutes of stupidity, was surely a bigger fluke right?
The 9-7 2011 team probably should have been 10-6 if not for a bad call as noted above.
The argument that 2011 was lesser of a Super Bowl champion because of some rushing statistics or other stats is like judging a football game based on yards rather points scored.
Its like pulling teeth with you, so dug in on your stance that you refuse to get out of your own way. Richburg wasn't worth top Center money, and that's what the 49ers paid him. They added him to a pretty good line and better coaching. He's now healthy and working well in Shanahan's offense which is a farcry from Shurmurs. Do you not understand that that shit matters?
So was letting Collins go a mistake too since our defense is still awful? Using your logic we should have kept him no matter the price.
You do see how that's a legitimate reality, don't you?
Points scored as a measure of a team, you say? Well, that's certainly a factor in point differential, a metric by which the 2011 Giants rank dead last among 53 Super Bowl winners.
You do see how that's a legitimate reality, don't you?
So your argument is that they shouldn't have retained a player who is playing well for another team because everyone they have on the line right now is garbage, so he would inevitably have been garbage as well? I don't follow that logic, but whatever, there's no use in arguing further.
No matter how you shade it, Gettleman has failed miserably at rebuilding the line.
Honestly, you have two choices. Be patient, or find something else to do. In reality, there isn't much else that can be done for fans.
I guess we could find a discussion forum and, you know, discuss it.
Surely you don't think we should all just abandon BBI until the Giants are good again, do you?
A microcosm of society, really.
The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.
A microcosm of society, really.
The difference is that one side of the argument regarding the Giants continues to be proven right by the results on the field. There's only one metric that matters in football, and in that metric the Gettleman/Shurmur braintrust is 7-19.
The rest is excuses, which have become as much a staple of this time of year as turkey, stuffing, and raking leaves.
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he was right to not pay Richburg, which is obvious considering how bad every player is on this line right now. He has failed at replacing him.
You do see how that's a legitimate reality, don't you?
So your argument is that they shouldn't have retained a player who is playing well for another team because everyone they have on the line right now is garbage, so he would inevitably have been garbage as well? I don't follow that logic, but whatever, there's no use in arguing further.
No matter how you shade it, Gettleman has failed miserably at rebuilding the line.
Well no, you didn't even bother with him being amongst the top paid centers in the game so I don't even know why we are having this discussion. I gave you two reasons. The first was how much he cost, the second was his cost + how he was playing for us + how he's in an entirely different offense that better suits what he's good at.
And now we can go back to the larger issue, why is everyone failing? I refuse to believe Solder sucks, Zeitler sucks, and Hernandez regressing is all because DG miscalculated. He absolutely whiffed on C and RT, but there's a larger issue here.
Am I allowed to have that opinion?
I still don't really understand the rule that let them rule him down.
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A fan to have three straight seasons of not only not making the playoffs but being a bottom feeder. 7/8 seasons of missing the playoffs completely when 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year. It’s a drought.
The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. It’s not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.
Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like he’s flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)
The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.
I'm still searching for this team that had a quick turn around from perennial loser to perennial winner...
They're losers. They're not even showing signs of improving. They have Barkley (who shouldn't even be playing because his horrid pass blocking has gotten Jones smacked in the mouth more than once) and Dexter Lawrence.
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Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona
I still don't really understand the rule that let them rule him down.
That was a missed call. The rule allows a player to give himself up without being touched, but that was very clearly not what Cruz was doing. The Giants got bailed out on that one.
Zeitler 1)was overblown by BBI in the first place, with many people claiming he was an All-Pro caliber guard despite the fact that he's never made All-Pro, or even the Pro Bowl 2)is playing through an injury.
Also, Zeitler and Hernandez playing around the useless Halapio isn't helping matters, either.
They're losers. They're not even showing signs of improving. They have Barkley (who shouldn't even be playing because his horrid pass blocking has gotten Jones smacked in the mouth more than once) and Dexter Lawrence.
Some people have a hard time criticizing the Giants. It's tough to accept that they might be bad at their jobs. If you switched the uniforms to some other team, the posters defending Mara and Gettleman would be citing them for incompetence.
But because they are Giants, the excuses and rationalizations flow freely.
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Remember Victor Cruz dropping the ball untouched in Arizona
I still don't really understand the rule that let them rule him down.
That was a missed call. The rule allows a player to give himself up without being touched, but that was very clearly not what Cruz was doing. The Giants got bailed out on that one.
Yup. If the refs get that right, the Super Bowl doesn't happen because they don't make the playoffs.
Now I'm not saying we should give the title back. But the point holds that that wasn't a great team, and more importantly astute leadership would have identified the warning signs and taken corrective action early instead of resting on laurels.
The Giants of that era peaked in 2008. I still think the MNF loss in Cleveland was the point of inflection for the whole era...Shaun Rogers obliterating O'Hara, Snee, and Seubert foretold of the need to reinforce the offensive line - a need that still exists today. They squeezed out another title behind numerous Eli 4th quarter comebacks and a DPOY level year from JPP, but they were already on the way down. Once that team disintegrated after Sandy the leadership was clueless in how to rebuild. That problem remains.
Fairly dubious to detract from that team via "hair away" toward losses, but not credit them via "hair away" toward wins (like vs Green Bay).
That team was exemplary of "you are what your record says you are". @Linc, @NE, @Dal wins + competitive v Green Bay all proved they were more than an average team. If that was a "fluky" team, then idk what 2016 was...
Regardless, your note about Shaun Rogers is on point (Edwards went off that game too). Wilson over Glenn, Sintim over Unger. This is not "20/20 hindsight". The festering fail was being called at the time by many on this website. This is all occurring, mind you, when the absolute most certain things about your team is that you have A) a virtually unparalleled immobile QB and B) one who is lethal with good pass pro.
Then we saw the same fail again with Engram over Ramczyk. I am the farthest thing from a college football guru and even I was throwing my hands up in April 2017. Hey at least the Giants have Remmers at RT!
He then gets a nice restart in San Fran, plays in a new scheme with better coaching and an ascending roster. Its not shocking that he's playing better there. I can almost guarantee that money would be pissed down the drain if he stayed here, just like the other lineman we've signed since.
Here's the one thing that jumped out at me and I feel like there's a chance (though I don't have anything besides my own skepticism/cynicism to base this on) that not all GMs have their finger on the pulse of the market, that they're not all as plugged in at all times as we assume or even hope, that they're just as likely to be blindsided in their endeavors as any of us are in our respective industries.
Besides, who has time to stay plugged in when they have to dedicate time to admiring their own resume every day?
The excuse that will come out obviously will be....”we were forced to play a lot of 1-2 year players and as we all know, they make mistakes and need time to grow.”
I suppose their is truth in this......but, the question I think many of us are asking is this....are these guys being coached up properly? I am now having my doubts, especially on defense. I don’t see any improvement at all,....although I know Baker, Ballentine now, Love soon, Dexter, Xman, And BJ, Are all1-2 year players. They still look like tjey are confused in their assignments and some are not good at tackling.
On offense, at least DJ is doing well, save the fumbles, and he doesn’t really have many sexy toys to play with, with Shep, Saquon, Engram always out and both OTs suck.
I am now of the opinion that maybe a totally new coaching staff might just be what the doctor ordered. Look at Arizona....they are at least playing much better ball and are competitive. I’d like to be even where they are at today than where we are at.
As for DG....leave him alone...he’s done enough good things to offset the few bad decisions.
His bad decisions outweigh his good ones to date. There are some incompletes that may turn out to be good decisions, but there's not a lot that you can definitively say could possibly outweigh his mistakes yet.
And let's not forget, he DID extend Sterling Shepard.
They're losers. They're not even showing signs of improving. They have Barkley (who shouldn't even be playing because his horrid pass blocking has gotten Jones smacked in the mouth more than once) and Dexter Lawrence.
Very few defend Shurmur, so it's really just Gettleman. And those defenders fall into three camps, with a handful of exceptions:
1) The sneakers game attendees who can't enough of DG's old school football rhetoric, and don't pay close enough attention to realize that the rule changes and current CBA make that style of football materially more difficult to build a proper roster for
2) The fans who are so refreshed that Gettleman isn't Reese, that they find a way to credit him and blame Reese for anything that goes wrong, including roster moves that are entirely Gettleman's
3) The cheerleaders who find no fault in anything the Giants do in any form
Note that some fans embody more than one (and in some cases, all three) of these categories.
That said I'm both aggravated and worried about the head coach and his staff(primary culprits are shurmur/bettcher/hunter). This roster isn't as bad as the results they've gotten imo. Their progress with the younger players has been lethargic and disappointing.
No one has talked about Collins on here at all that I can see. Regarding Richburg, however, I'm not understand where the bullshit is. Richburg is starting for a 9-1 team and playing at least reasonably well. The Giants starter is a sorryass journeyman nobody. Those are both simple facts. To me, letting Richburg walk is only the right move if you have a plan to get someone better, or at least someone who is roughly equivalent but cheaper. The Giants got the cheaper part right, but their center of choice is a guy who had drifted through several organizations without getting any significant playing time. That was a failure, full stop.
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In comment 14683832 Les in TO said:
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A fan to have three straight seasons of not only not making the playoffs but being a bottom feeder. 7/8 seasons of missing the playoffs completely when 12/32 teams make the playoffs each year. It’s a drought.
The NFL is a league where fast turnarounds are not only possible they are normal. It’s not like MLB where a team like the astros sucks for five years but build up top picks and then turn things around.
Gettleman talks about having a plan but it seems more like he’s flying by the seat of his pants and the results in the standings are putrid (last year 4 out of 5 wins were against teams fielding second or third string QBs)
The only thing that will make Mara or Tisch take major action is an empty stadium.
I'm still searching for this team that had a quick turn around from perennial loser to perennial winner...
the jags and cowboys had quick turnarounds from basement dwellers to division champs. The colts were crap before Manning and the season before Luck was drafted. The Steelers has almost 15 years of success after Big Ben was drafted but were 6-10 the year prior. The Chiefs were a hot mess before Reid arrived and are perennial contenders. In those cases a new coach and/or QB can turn around a teams fortunes.
I think your first example is what I'm getting at.
First of all, I'm not saying that PS is the answer or that he should or shouldn't be fired.
What I am saying is that one sure fire way to continue to suck, and that is to continually restart the rebuild. The Jags did that.
Did they turn "it" around in one year? I would argue no. Prior to the year they made it to the AFC championship game they had 9 straight years of losing football, during which they had 5 different HCs. Doug Marrone came in and had one year of success. THen went 5-11 the following year and is 4-6 right now.
Franchises that continue to use the HC has a scapegoat for the organizations' failures continue to be failures.
I believe, right or wrong, that the New York Giants are going to give DG and PS every possible chance to succeed because either ownership is too damn stubborn to admit that they were wrong OR they understand the continuity of leadership at the top is the only path to success.
The history lesson was to provide a back drop to the understanding that this franchise is not the Jags, or the Bucs, or the Redskins, or the Dolphins, or the Jets, or the any number of teams that have been engulfed in losing for 15-30 years.
And even though this is a rough stretch and things look dim - maybe, maybe ownership has earned the right to ask the fan base for patience as they transition from Eli/Reece/TC to a new era of football, because they have gotten it right in the past unlike SO MANY other NFL franchises.
Second guess all you want. It was the right decision to move on from him.
Second guess all you want. It was the right decision to move on from him.
a)Clearly the Niners saw something in him worth signing him for, and their scouting of him sure as hell turned out to be closer to reality.
b)For the thousandth time, if you want to part ways from Richburg, it helps to have a plan that doesn't involve installing a complete nonentity as your starting center.
I don't think many would argue Richburg underperformed here. That should probably fall on coaching. DG not seeing the potential is a failure by him.
Giants Wire - ( New Window )
The same player that is succeeding elsewhere? He had the tools in him. The team couldn't get it out of him. They failed maximizing the player's value.
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GM's know the market and likely knew what Richburg was going to make, give or take, whether it was with NYG or elsewhere. He wasn't worth anything close to what he got as a NYG. It would have likely been more of the same.
He then gets a nice restart in San Fran, plays in a new scheme with better coaching and an ascending roster. Its not shocking that he's playing better there. I can almost guarantee that money would be pissed down the drain if he stayed here, just like the other lineman we've signed since.
Here's the one thing that jumped out at me and I feel like there's a chance (though I don't have anything besides my own skepticism/cynicism to base this on) that not all GMs have their finger on the pulse of the market, that they're not all as plugged in at all times as we assume or even hope, that they're just as likely to be blindsided in their endeavors as any of us are in our respective industries.
Besides, who has time to stay plugged in when they have to dedicate time to admiring their own resume every day?
Lets say that's the case, why would that matter in this scenario? Richburg got paid a ton by the 49ers and nothing the Giants did or didn't do can change that.
Its a very weird thing to get hung up on. DG has failed at getting a quality Center but we had 4 years of Richburg and nothing he did here suggested that he should be one of the highest paid players in the league at his position.
Both can be true, I don't know why its so hard admit that.
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the idea that not signing Collins or Richburg were the right moves cannot be agreed upon, you just have to face the fact that some posters will go to any lengths to not give any credit at all to the organization and will just continue to batter the board with bullshit.
No one has talked about Collins on here at all that I can see. Regarding Richburg, however, I'm not understand where the bullshit is. Richburg is starting for a 9-1 team and playing at least reasonably well. The Giants starter is a sorryass journeyman nobody. Those are both simple facts. To me, letting Richburg walk is only the right move if you have a plan to get someone better, or at least someone who is roughly equivalent but cheaper. The Giants got the cheaper part right, but their center of choice is a guy who had drifted through several organizations without getting any significant playing time. That was a failure, full stop.
And they were 4-12 last year when they signed him. I also don't agree on when/how you let someone walk. You shouldn't ever be forced to keep a guy and pay above what you are comfortable with unless they are a huge difference maker like a QB, LT, ER (and don't we all applaud the teams that don't overpay and use the next man up mentality?). Losing Richburg should have been an easy thing to overcome. Obviously that got botched.
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Richburg didn't earn or deserve an extension beyond his rookie deal. He had about one good season in four and regressed badly the final year and a half.
Second guess all you want. It was the right decision to move on from him.
a)Clearly the Niners saw something in him worth signing him for, and their scouting of him sure as hell turned out to be closer to reality.
b)For the thousandth time, if you want to part ways from Richburg, it helps to have a plan that doesn't involve installing a complete nonentity as your starting center.
How the hell does this team expect to get any better rummaging through the clearance bin for players and re-drafting the same positions over and over again? Instead of having the center position set, we screwed around with hambones for two seasons only to, shocker, either spend a draft pick or pay a FA so we have at least a semi-competent center instead of shoring up another position or two. Gee, why doesn't this team ever get any better?
Patience is a virtue