I'm not talk to my about the mystical and methodological genius of Bill Belichichik, but rather about most teams that build a superior squad for a span of 5-6 years. Like the Parcells era Giants, the best Giants team I have seen in my adult life time.
Many here don't seem to recall history, so I am going to list the key draft picks or acquisitions...
It started when Phil Simms was drafted 7th overall from no-name Morehead State in 1979; a draft pick that was despised and derided by many fans and media members.
It continued with Mark Haynes drafted 8th overall in 1980, even though Haynes was traded a few years later for a haul of draft picks in '86, that put the Giants over the top. The Giants sucked so bad that year, they were able to draft LT second overall in 1981.
In '82 they woofed on Woolfork, but double dipped at RB and landed Joe Morris at 45 overall.
'83, back in the top 10, the got key contributor Terry Kinard at 10th overall! The '83 draft class was a whale for the Giants, as they also plucked Leonard Marshall, Karl Nelson, Kevin Belcher, Perry Williams, Andy Headen,
and Ali Haji-Sheik...
In 1984, 5 years after grabbing Phil Simms and 3 years after landing LT at 2 overall, THEY STILL SUCKED AND HAD THE 3RD overall draft pick and landed Carl Banks. Along with Banks that was a great draft for the Giants, selecting William Roberts with another first round pick, Jeff Hostetler, and 2 more high quality starters - Reasons and Lionel Manuel.
In '85 they lost their promising 1st round FB George Adams to an injury, didn't do well in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but drafted Mark Bavaro in the 4th round...
Add in a strong rookie class in '86, and you have a Superbowl winning team with dominant talent.
Just look at how many years of good drafting it took to launch that team.
for me, its all about the coaches.
You need to find guys who aren't trying to do schemes that worked 5 years ago.
you need guys who are trying to be successful now and are thinking ahead. you need to find guys who can coach any type of player and system.
rod marinelli
wade phillips
josh McDaniels
these guys are all coordinators that had huge amounts of success despite high roster turnovers. because they know how to coach, teach, and manage.
Today, teams can turn themselves around in 1-3 off seasons and show improvement along the way. The NFL has built a system where any team can be competitive in any given year.
Today, teams can turn themselves around in 1-3 off seasons and show improvement along the way. The NFL has built a system where any team can be competitive in any given year.
And yet, it took the 9ers about a half dozen lousy years and decent top 10 picks to get where they now are...
If you can't control the line of scrimmage on offense or defense, you will not have long term success. Stock piling talented skill players alone, is not the stuff of championships. It's like buying a gold plated toilet when you live in a double-wide...
If you can't control the line of scrimmage on offense or defense, you will not have long term success. Stock piling talented skill players alone, is not the stuff of championships. It's like buying a gold plated toilet when you live in a double-wide...
I couldn't agree more. And that was Reese's greatest weakness and his downfall - putting far more resources into offensive skills players, especially WRs, and letting a key guy like Linval Joseph walk.
Yeah he got burned with his top WRs sustaining injuries time after time after time... But it was an errant focus to start with.
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There was no free agency. There was no salary cap.
Today, teams can turn themselves around in 1-3 off seasons and show improvement along the way. The NFL has built a system where any team can be competitive in any given year.
And yet, it took the 9ers about a half dozen lousy years and decent top 10 picks to get where they now are...
The 49ers started their rebuild in 2017 with John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan, just because they sucked before doesn't mean shit. And they would have been decent last year if Jimmy G didn't blow out his knee.
2.) a GM and scouting department that work with the head coach to evaluate talent that fit into a particular scheme.
3.) a coaching staff that knows how to take talent and teach players how to play are particular roll a team and helps to teach them to do their job.
4.) a head coach that can scheme, hire good coaches, give the program direction, make adjustments, hold players accountable, and manage a football game.
5.) a legit NFL starting QB
So, the Raiders rookies have produced and they have a winning record. The Giants rookies have stunk and it just gives them an excuse that "they are a young team."
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In comment 14684321 Ben in Tampa said:
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The 49ers started their rebuild in 2017 with John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan, just because they sucked before doesn't mean shit. And they would have been decent last year if Jimmy G didn't blow out his knee.
I think the current 9ers starts with drafting Arik Armstead in 2015. He is literally and figuratively a huge part of that turnaround and their current success.
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In comment 14684321 Ben in Tampa said:
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There was no free agency. There was no salary cap.
Today, teams can turn themselves around in 1-3 off seasons and show improvement along the way. The NFL has built a system where any team can be competitive in any given year.
And yet, it took the 9ers about a half dozen lousy years and decent top 10 picks to get where they now are...
The 49ers started their rebuild in 2017 with John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan, just because they sucked before doesn't mean shit. And they would have been decent last year if Jimmy G didn't blow out his knee.
That's some revisionist history right there if I've ever seen it.
the 49ers sucked for 5 straight years. You can't just erase the Jim Tomsula and Chip Kelly years because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Again, if Reese and Ross left the team is such a sorry state, then why did the Giants try to compete in 2018? Why did they wait a year for the rebuild to fully begin and on top of that, STILL bring Eli back and subject him to a starting role on a subpar team.
Ding, Ding, Ding
I think you inadvertently left out a very significant development and that was the folding of the USFL and the subsequent NFL re-entry Draft of their players.
We not only got Bart Oats, Maurice Carthon and Sean Lendetta, but we also selected a fantastic OT, Gary Zimmerman, who refused to join the Giants. We traded his rights for I believe two 2nd round choices in the 1986 Draft, giving us a total of four that year (Mark Collins, Eric Howard, Pepper Johnson and Greg Lasker.
So when do you think the Giants' rebuild officially started?
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A decade of pathetic drafting by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross where a dart board would have been more effective. The good news is that the cleansing is almost over and the rebuild can now begin. We do have cap space and a guy who is much better at draft than what we are used to with Reese.
Again, if Reese and Ross left the team is such a sorry state, then why did the Giants try to compete in 2018? Why did they wait a year for the rebuild to fully begin and on top of that, STILL bring Eli back and subject him to a starting role on a subpar team.
Because ownership made them - we all work for someone.
Today, teams can turn themselves around in 1-3 off seasons and show improvement along the way. The NFL has built a system where any team can be competitive in any given year.
Yep. By the time 1986 rolled around, Lawrence Taylor was entering his 6th season. You know what that means? His cap number would be enormous. George Martin and Harry Carson would probably have long since moved on as cap casualties. Joe Morris was coming off a 21 TD season in 1985 and held out during the '86 preseason. Would they have been able to keep him?
How much would Phil Simms have been getting paid after a career year in 1984?
Could they have afforded to sign Bart Oates out of the USFL before the 1985 season?
The only thing that remains true from the 1980s is that the offensive line is the key to a successful offense and pressuring the QB is how you win on defense. How you actually accomplish that is different.
Then it’s a fairly straightforward - talent acquisition, great coaching, and risk management.
The real debate is what’s more critical - talent acquisition or coaching. It’s a very tight call. I’m usually on the side of talent acquisition, but a good argument can be made that most of the players in the NFL are very, very close in ability. And what elevates them to the next level is coaching - development and strategy.
Takes 3 in a row to go from 2-4 wins to 7-9 wins. Giants are on the way, but the upcoming draft is critical.
I'm not sure how Reese is solely responsible for how pathetic this team looks right NOW. By my count, of the normal starting lineup, there are only 4 players that are not Gettleman acquisitions. I'm seeing only J. Halapio, S. Shepard, E. Engram, and J. Jenkins as the only non-Gettleman guys.
Reese acquisitions, Shepard and Engram, are 2 of our 3 most talented skill position guys. Gettleman chose to jettison most of the other talented Reese acquisitions (OBJ, Collins, Apple, Snacks).
I'm not defending Reese, he needed to go. However, from the GM stand point, Gettleman is as much or more responsible for this mess.
Yes, it takes time to build a winner but we are not even showing any improvement. The curtain needs to fall on the Dave and Pat show ASAP. Unfortunately, I think they'll both be back next season.
I think you inadvertently left out a very significant development and that was the folding of the USFL and the subsequent NFL re-entry Draft of their players.
We not only got Bart Oats, Maurice Carthon and Sean Lendetta, but we also selected a fantastic OT, Gary Zimmerman, who refused to join the Giants. We traded his rights for I believe two 2nd round choices in the 1986 Draft, giving us a total of four that year (Mark Collins, Eric Howard, Pepper Johnson and Greg Lasker.
Not inadvertently. But I didn't want to muck up the drafting issue. What's more, the USFL players brought in, or attempted to like Zimmerman, further displayed Young's passion for building for OL and the running game, since Carthon was one of the best blocking FBs in the league and Zimmerman became an HOFer.
Those are the type of pieces we have tried, but failed so far, to acquire via FAs now - Solder, Omameh, Remmers.
Not exactly Zimmerman and Oates!
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that does not tackle well. A front 4 that gets no pass rush without a bunch of blitzers exposing a secondary full of rookies. The players are responsible. A decade of pathetic drafting by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross where a dart board would have been more effective. The good news is that the cleansing is almost over and the rebuild can now begin. We do have cap space and a guy who is much better at draft than what we are used to with Reese.
I'm not sure how Reese is solely responsible for how pathetic this team looks right NOW. By my count, of the normal starting lineup, there are only 4 players that are not Gettleman acquisitions. I'm seeing only J. Halapio, S. Shepard, E. Engram, and J. Jenkins as the only non-Gettleman guys.
Even among those Reese acquisitions, Gettleman extended Shepard and made no effort to upgrade over Halapio even after Richburg left in FA and he traded away Jones. Add to that DG calling Halapio their highest graded OL at the time of his injury last year, and I think it's fair to consider Halapio a Gettleman guy at this point - it's clear that he has consciously chosen to keep him around.
As for Chip's comment that Gettleman is "much better at the draft" I don't think you can say that for sure - a lot of Reese's drafts looked promising in their 1st and 2nd year. By the end of Reese's time here, it had become a constant that his picks weren't reaching their second contract, which is a pretty good indicator of failure. But DG's picks are all on their rookie deals and several of the players have been inconsistent at best. I'm not sure how anyone can be sure that DG is definitely better in the draft than Reese was - we just don't know enough yet.
He did seemingly nail the QB pick, but that's not a pick Reese even had to ever consider, so I don't know if that's a fair comparison.
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There was no free agency. There was no salary cap.
Today, teams can turn themselves around in 1-3 off seasons and show improvement along the way. The NFL has built a system where any team can be competitive in any given year.
And yet, it took the 9ers about a half dozen lousy years and decent top 10 picks to get where they now are...
The Niners may have had the top 10 picks, but the turnover in overall roster from Chip Kelly/Kaepernick's last game to the roster now is enormous. It's something like 85%. Ahmad Brooks and Navorro Bowman were part of the heart of those Niner defenses, and both were gone several months into the Shananan era, one in the pre-season, the other mid-season.
So basically 2015 and 2016 were lost years that contributed even more to the downfall of the team that was necessary. Yes, Armstead and Buckner were very good 1st round picks, but the overall roster was worse relative to the year prior. Kelly might not have been a great coach, but he wasn't a 2 win coach IMO.
The 49ers that Harbaugh inherited, had more 1st rounders than this current team. They had also guys on offense with 1st round grades (2 Ts, 1 TE, 1 WR, QB) that this current regime only inherited Staley.
If the Giants were to do the same, you would have to make similar moves. Build around Jones, Barkley, a few other guys and be ready to make the roster "worse" in the short term to make it better in the long term. Niners coulda kept Kaepernick and won more games than Hoyer/CJ Beathard, kept Brooks so you didn't have Eric Reid playing LB late in the season......but what good would that have done but win maybe another 2-3 games at best?
If you can't control the line of scrimmage on offense or defense, you will not have long term success. Stock piling talented skill players alone, is not the stuff of championships. It's like buying a gold plated toilet when you live in a double-wide...
This proves to be correct over time. Sadly, those guys are rarely recognized and have no real stats (on offense) to back up their contributions. Imagine GPBs and GRBs stats for great pass/run blocks? At least they get paid fairly well.
2003: Osi, Diehl
2004: Eli, Snee, Torbor, Wilson. FA: Ohara
2005: Webster, Tuck, Jacobs. FA: Plax, Pierce, McKenzie
2006: Kiwi, Cofield FA: McQuarters
2007: Ross, Smith, Boss, Bradshaw. FA: Mitchell, Madison
This group of players may have 1-2 HOFer's. Not an amazing group but very good together and many key players in the foundation of both SB 42 and 46.
Toomer, Strahan were longtime Giants and fan favorites that finally got their ring but their leadership was huge as well.
We need some leaders on this team!
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that does not tackle well. A front 4 that gets no pass rush without a bunch of blitzers exposing a secondary full of rookies. The players are responsible. A decade of pathetic drafting by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross where a dart board would have been more effective. The good news is that the cleansing is almost over and the rebuild can now begin. We do have cap space and a guy who is much better at draft than what we are used to with Reese.
I'm not sure how Reese is solely responsible for how pathetic this team looks right NOW. By my count, of the normal starting lineup, there are only 4 players that are not Gettleman acquisitions. I'm seeing only J. Halapio, S. Shepard, E. Engram, and J. Jenkins as the only non-Gettleman guys.
Reese acquisitions, Shepard and Engram, are 2 of our 3 most talented skill position guys. Gettleman chose to jettison most of the other talented Reese acquisitions (OBJ, Collins, Apple, Snacks).
I'm not defending Reese, he needed to go. However, from the GM stand point, Gettleman is as much or more responsible for this mess.
Yes, it takes time to build a winner but we are not even showing any improvement. The curtain needs to fall on the Dave and Pat show ASAP. Unfortunately, I think they'll both be back next season.
You almost answered your own question. He inherited a team with cap issues, aging overpaid players (JPP, Snacks, Eli) needed to find the next qb, his best player (OBJ) a malcontent. It was a 3 win team that with cap problems, think about that.
You mentioned four Reese players still on the team. Taking that into account how do you expect to field a good team with that kind of turrnover in two years. It’s not possible.
The same holds true on offense and Belichick uses the old Ron Earhardt model the Giants used to great success. Big, sturdy OL, a 3rd down back or scat back, a bruising all purpose FB, a power HB and big talented two way TEs. From Kevin Faulk to James White, they always have one of those scat back types who can do it all and create mismatches. You can attack any defense however you choose, spread it out and throw or hunker down and run and any variant in between really. Even Gronk said it a few weeks on Fox when he was in for the Giants game, he specifically said our identity changes each week based on who we play and what they don't defend well. It's really simple and it's worked for 20 years in New England. It doesn't take a QB guru or WCO genius, it takes knowing how to diagnose your opponent and having the tools to defeat it.
The Pats, Steelers, Packers have traditionally all employed a base 3-4 with the same offensive systems basically for going on 20 years. Players grow accustomed to it, they can indoctrinate new players quickly because they've mastered the systems and there isn't turnover to new systems every 3-5 years. Organizational philosophy and consistent application to it is the key. Arguing over coach/talent/owner is pointless because they are all ingredients that work together, none works w/o the other being in sync. It's about a true organizational philosophy, otherwise you reboot every few years and hope to strike gold.
Goal: Build and maintain an intelligent and physically tough team that will weather the attrition of the NFL season
Objective 1: In game management
a. Situational football
i. 2:00 Offense
ii. 4:00 Offense
And so on. I'd probably have 5 or so general goal statements, each containing several objectives and sub-objectives that operationally define how the overarching goal is going to be achieved.
Specificity and a detail-oriented approach are required from the outset...don't just tell me you want to win the LOS - how exactly are you going to do it? How are you going to get the players to execute that vision?
Attention to detail. You see it in some teams, the most extreme example being New England. A couple weeks ago we saw them exploit a loophole that allowed them to take a penalty and run extra time off the clock without having to run a play. Seems a small thing in a game they were winning by multiple scores, but the little things all add up.
You don't see that attention to detail with the Giants...against the Jets Shurmur and Ogeltree fucked up their communication on which end to defend after the coin toss.
That's why I think the people that blame Reese and the subsequent talent shortage are missing the picture. The Giants don't suck because of a lack of talent...the talent margin between the best and worst teams in the NFL is actually pretty thin. The difference is in the organizational cultures and the attention to detail that comes with them. Mismanaging timeouts, stupid challenges, blown coverages, missed blocking assignments, poor effort...these are not talent problems. They're culture problems.
What does it take to build a superior team? A culture of attention to detail that is established and enforced by the coaching staff and wholly supported by ownership.
That is simple Lou .... c'mon.
Goal: Build and maintain an intelligent and physically tough team that will weather the attrition of the NFL season
Objective 1: In game management
a. Situational football
i. 2:00 Offense
ii. 4:00 Offense
And so on. I'd probably have 5 or so general goal statements, each containing several objectives and sub-objectives that operationally define how the overarching goal is going to be achieved.
Specificity and a detail-oriented approach are required from the outset...don't just tell me you want to win the LOS - how exactly are you going to do it? How are you going to get the players to execute that vision?
Attention to detail. You see it in some teams, the most extreme example being New England. A couple weeks ago we saw them exploit a loophole that allowed them to take a penalty and run extra time off the clock without having to run a play. Seems a small thing in a game they were winning by multiple scores, but the little things all add up.
You don't see that attention to detail with the Giants...against the Jets Shurmur and Ogeltree fucked up their communication on which end to defend after the coin toss.
That's why I think the people that blame Reese and the subsequent talent shortage are missing the picture. The Giants don't suck because of a lack of talent...the talent margin between the best and worst teams in the NFL is actually pretty thin. The difference is in the organizational cultures and the attention to detail that comes with them. Mismanaging timeouts, stupid challenges, blown coverages, missed blocking assignments, poor effort...these are not talent problems. They're culture problems.
What does it take to build a superior team? A culture of attention to detail that is established and enforced by the coaching staff and wholly supported by ownership.
This is interesting, I think that is similar to what Tom Coughlin did. He reportedly had presentations for the players on what wins games (turnover ratio, etc.) and what loses games. He made players be 5 minutes EARLY to meetings, otherwise they were late. He made Tiki Barber practice carrying the ball differently in his spare time.
I'd be interested to hear some of Shurmur's corresponding coaching tactics. Does he have any?
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In comment 14684312 Chip said:
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that does not tackle well. A front 4 that gets no pass rush without a bunch of blitzers exposing a secondary full of rookies. The players are responsible. A decade of pathetic drafting by Jerry Reese and Marc Ross where a dart board would have been more effective. The good news is that the cleansing is almost over and the rebuild can now begin. We do have cap space and a guy who is much better at draft than what we are used to with Reese.
I'm not sure how Reese is solely responsible for how pathetic this team looks right NOW. By my count, of the normal starting lineup, there are only 4 players that are not Gettleman acquisitions. I'm seeing only J. Halapio, S. Shepard, E. Engram, and J. Jenkins as the only non-Gettleman guys.
Reese acquisitions, Shepard and Engram, are 2 of our 3 most talented skill position guys. Gettleman chose to jettison most of the other talented Reese acquisitions (OBJ, Collins, Apple, Snacks).
I'm not defending Reese, he needed to go. However, from the GM stand point, Gettleman is as much or more responsible for this mess.
Yes, it takes time to build a winner but we are not even showing any improvement. The curtain needs to fall on the Dave and Pat show ASAP. Unfortunately, I think they'll both be back next season.
You almost answered your own question. He inherited a team with cap issues, aging overpaid players (JPP, Snacks, Eli) needed to find the next qb, his best player (OBJ) a malcontent. It was a 3 win team that with cap problems, think about that.
You mentioned four Reese players still on the team. Taking that into account how do you expect to field a good team with that kind of turrnover in two years. It’s not possible.
I was stating that Gettleman didn't inherit a team devoid of talent. He chose to move on from the majority of those who did possess talent. That was his call. What the reasoning was behind each of those decisions is not completely known. I don't think we've ever heard that OBJ was a problem in the locker room. It was his on field antics that were frowned upon by Mara and possibly Gettleman. Despite Gettleman's proclamation that "you don't give up on talent", he gave up on a lot of talent.
The team, as currently constructed, is Gettleman's team. The current state of affairs is definitely partly due to his poor free agent signings, highly questionable trades and his inability (when he first took over) to correctly analyze what needed to be done to right the ship in a timely fashion.
Coughlin inherited a miserable team in 2004. He introduced a completely different culture from his predecessor and got a lot of flak for it, but he turned the franchise around relatively quickly.
The Giants drafted strongly in 2004, adding Eli (via trade), Snee, Torbot, and Wilson--all future starters. (They also snagged a promising looking prospect in Jamaar Taylor, but injuries did him in). In free agency, they also snagged Shaun O'Hara and Fred Robbins. Those guys weren't stars, but they were good building block players.
Then, of course, the team made the most out of the 2005 draft, picking up three good players with only four picks. (Poor Eric Moore was the odd guy out). In free agency, 2005 also brought Plax, Kareem McKenzie, and Antonio Pierce. The 2005 team won more games than the 2003 and 2004 Giants combined.
Of note is the fact that there were still misses during the rebuild. Free agent signings also included guys like Jason Whittle, Keith Washington, Barrett Green, and Bob Whitfield. But the team hit on enough signings and picks that they could overcome these mistakes.
The Giants during that time also took advantage of what talent was still on the roster, with guys like Diehl and Umenyiora becoming stars as the team developed.
After 2007 and especially after 2011, the team seemed to get into this mode where they figured they could cut bait with promising players who would cost too much and replace them with younger, cheaper players. That's fine when you're finding a Hakeem Nicks to replace your Plaxico Burress. It's not so great when you let Martellus Bennett walk and replace him with Brandon Myers.
Basically, the Giants went from a terrible team in 2003 to a contender in 2005 and beyond because they identified talent well and made enough good personnel choices to overcome their mistakes. Since the start of the decade, the team has not shown that level of skill with choosing personnel. At the same time, the front office was arrogant enough to jettison decent players under the assumption that they could replace them without missing a beat.
By now, Gettleman has had a chance to tear this team down and remake it his way. Either his recent moves will turn out to be mostly hits, or this franchise is going to continue to suck for another five years at least.
To reset the game:
Score: TB 31 - 25 NYG
Timeouts: TB-1 NYG-0
2:00 - NYG ball at TB 12
If you've ever played Madden, you know one crucial thing coming out of the 2:00 warning - this is the Giants' last possession. They will not get another chance to score. As such, the clock is no longer a factor in the game. Objective 1 is to score a TD, but if you can run the clock down or at least get TB to use their timeout you've helped your chances. Here is how the series developed:
2:00 - 1st & 10 from 12 yard line: 5 yard pass to Fowler
1:30 - 2nd & 5 from 7: incomplete contested pass short right to Engram
This is the play that shows the Giants' complete lack of attention to detail. Not only did they not run a play that would force TB to use their timeout, they did not even run the play clock down to :01. They snapped it at :19...adding 18 seconds to TB's clock if they need it. This is four down territory...why are you rushing?
1:26 - 3rd & 5 from 7: incomplete contested pass short right to Engram
This is twice now that Shurmur did not go to a play (Gallman run, screen, QB draw) that was likely to gain some yardage AND make TB use their timeout. Instead he called a play that required a throw into tight man coverage. Remember, this is Jones's first start.
1:21 - 4th & 5: Shurmur calls a pass play that's unsuccessful in getting anyone open. Fortunately for him Jones has the wherewithal to run it in himself.
So what should have been Tampa getting the ball back with about :30 and no timeouts was 1:16 and 1 timeout. There were :34 on the clock when Winston hit Evans for 44 yards down to the Giants' 9. Fortunately for the Giants TB incompetently lost the game, but Shurmur didn't even deserve to be on the flight back to Jersey. If you were watching that game objectively there was only one thought: the Giants are fucked.
No attention to detail.
Here was the 2017 Salary Cap situation at that time, for all the players who had base salary > $1M, sorted:
Eli Manning QB $13,000,000
Olivier Vernon DE $11,750,000
Damon Harrison DT $8,750,000
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie CB $6,569,412
Shane Vereen RB $2,150,000
Devon Kennard OLB $1,797,000
Kerry Wynn DE $1,797,000
Ereck Flowers RT $1,743,338
Jason Pierre-Paul DE $1,250,000
Brad Wing P $1,125,000
Eli Apple CB $1,071,757
Zak DeOssie LS $1,000,000
Ross Cockrell CB $1,000,000
Looking at this, its easy to see why its somewhat unfair to criticize Gettleman almost 2 years later. Of these 13 players, 5 players (Manning, Vernon, Rodgers-Cromartie, Vereen, Pierre-Paul) are arguably past their prime and not performing as high as their base salaries deserved ( I know, Manning is a two-time Super Bowl winner, and its sad to say that about him, but he wasn't winning games and his accuracy wasn't the same).
I think Step 1 was to get rid of these expensive-yet-arguably-underperforming players, which Gettleman tried to do for the most part. At the end of that season, I believe Rodgers-Cromartie and Vereen retired. Vernon and Harrison eventually got traded. Flowers eventually got cut. I agree with all of these trades/retirements.
Step 2 was to replace the departures with new, younger talent. Gettleman has clearly tried, but the jury is still out as to whether Carter and Ximenes can fill a healthy Vernon's shoes. The jury is still out as to whether Baker, Love and Ballentine can replace Rodgers-Cromartie. Solder was an expensive stopgap and the best available option at the time. Not many could have predicted his regression. But is he better than Flowers? I believe he is.
Gettleman can certainly take the blame for the dead money hit incurred on signing and then trading Beckham. But how many could have predicted that Beckham would be a me-first player who would throw his team under the bus after getting paid?
Step 3 is to take the talent acquired in Step 2 and build a winning football team. Here is where the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts. You build winning practices and a strong culture. You do this with coaching. Gettleman has failed to do this. Maybe its because he's hired the wrong head coach for the job. Or maybe its because he's not done with Step 2 yet.
Gettleman has one last excuse: the dead money situation. I think that after the end of 2020 season, if the Giants still have less than fewer wins, the blame can THEN be placed on Gettleman, and I will eat my words. Not before then though.
If they cannot stop you, or get to the QB, or if you can stop them, or get to their QB its a start.
Maybe people here tout the 86 Giants. The 86 team's secondary was rough. But since we could stop the run and get to the QB quicker it gave us a shot. Plus the vertical game was not nearly advanced as it is today.
If you have good coaching you have a sound philosophy for building a team and getting the most out of the players.
If you draft well you’ll always have a pipeline of cheap talent and depth.
To reset the game:
Score: TB 31 - 25 NYG
Timeouts: TB-1 NYG-0
2:00 - NYG ball at TB 12
If you've ever played Madden, you know one crucial thing coming out of the 2:00 warning - this is the Giants' last possession. They will not get another chance to score. As such, the clock is no longer a factor in the game. Objective 1 is to score a TD, but if you can run the clock down or at least get TB to use their timeout you've helped your chances. Here is how the series developed:
2:00 - 1st & 10 from 12 yard line: 5 yard pass to Fowler
1:30 - 2nd & 5 from 7: incomplete contested pass short right to Engram
This is the play that shows the Giants' complete lack of attention to detail. Not only did they not run a play that would force TB to use their timeout, they did not even run the play clock down to :01. They snapped it at :19...adding 18 seconds to TB's clock if they need it. This is four down territory...why are you rushing?
1:26 - 3rd & 5 from 7: incomplete contested pass short right to Engram
This is twice now that Shurmur did not go to a play (Gallman run, screen, QB draw) that was likely to gain some yardage AND make TB use their timeout. Instead he called a play that required a throw into tight man coverage. Remember, this is Jones's first start.
1:21 - 4th & 5: Shurmur calls a pass play that's unsuccessful in getting anyone open. Fortunately for him Jones has the wherewithal to run it in himself.
So what should have been Tampa getting the ball back with about :30 and no timeouts was 1:16 and 1 timeout. There were :34 on the clock when Winston hit Evans for 44 yards down to the Giants' 9. Fortunately for the Giants TB incompetently lost the game, but Shurmur didn't even deserve to be on the flight back to Jersey. If you were watching that game objectively there was only one thought: the Giants are fucked.
No attention to detail.
Quote:
If I'm interviewing for the Giants' GM job I'd start with a goal statement. Something like:
Goal: Build and maintain an intelligent and physically tough team that will weather the attrition of the NFL season
Objective 1: In game management
a. Situational football
i. 2:00 Offense
ii. 4:00 Offense
And so on. I'd probably have 5 or so general goal statements, each containing several objectives and sub-objectives that operationally define how the overarching goal is going to be achieved.
Specificity and a detail-oriented approach are required from the outset...don't just tell me you want to win the LOS - how exactly are you going to do it? How are you going to get the players to execute that vision?
Attention to detail. You see it in some teams, the most extreme example being New England. A couple weeks ago we saw them exploit a loophole that allowed them to take a penalty and run extra time off the clock without having to run a play. Seems a small thing in a game they were winning by multiple scores, but the little things all add up.
You don't see that attention to detail with the Giants...against the Jets Shurmur and Ogeltree fucked up their communication on which end to defend after the coin toss.
That's why I think the people that blame Reese and the subsequent talent shortage are missing the picture. The Giants don't suck because of a lack of talent...the talent margin between the best and worst teams in the NFL is actually pretty thin. The difference is in the organizational cultures and the attention to detail that comes with them. Mismanaging timeouts, stupid challenges, blown coverages, missed blocking assignments, poor effort...these are not talent problems. They're culture problems.
What does it take to build a superior team? A culture of attention to detail that is established and enforced by the coaching staff and wholly supported by ownership.
This is interesting, I think that is similar to what Tom Coughlin did. He reportedly had presentations for the players on what wins games (turnover ratio, etc.) and what loses games. He made players be 5 minutes EARLY to meetings, otherwise they were late. He made Tiki Barber practice carrying the ball differently in his spare time.
I'd be interested to hear some of Shurmur's corresponding coaching tactics. Does he have any?
Shouldn't DJ be carrying around a football 24/7????