I think everyone is aware that Chris Mara is SVP of Player Personnel. But did you know that the Asst Dir of Player Personnel, Tim McDonnell, is a Mara by blood (grandson of Wellington)? At a more junior level, Charles Tisch is Football Operations Assistant. In the Giants family, DJ Boisture, son of the long-time Giants scout, is regional scout (west). Chad Klunder, the new Scouting Coordinator, worked with Tim McDonnell at Notre Dame for several years. He was promoted to that position without any NFL experience.
Imagine what it's like being the Giants GM and, in general, working in an organization where several of your coworkers have an inside and very personal communication channel to the ownership? Simple business and football disagreements can take on a strong political overtone. Gettleman has imported several experienced NFL front office personnel into the Giants org (e.g. Mark Koncz most prominently but also someone like Brendan Prophett, a new scout coming over from the Lions). I don't know whether they feel comfortable taking contrarian positions on football matters given the strong family and insider culture.
Gettleman has also retained many of the scouts hired by Ross and Reese in the middle of the decade, and promoted Chris Pettit, a long time Giants scout, to Dir ofd College Scouting. The bios of the Giants organization reflect an unusual level of continuity in what is a very disruptive line of work, featuring constant personnel changes. And the level of cross pollination with other franchises is just surprisingly low. Probably a majority of the scouts and pro personnel staff have NO - zero - NFL experience working for other franchises.
If you go beyond a few of the leaders in the Giants organization, it looks like a very stable and insular community. Is change possible in an organization such as this one, marked by gated monopoly power and some past success? Looking at it objectively, this looks like a very mediocre organization that will automatically resist change and fall back naturally into confirmation bias.
I have high hopes for Daniel Jones, who I think is an exceptional talent, but even his selection looks suspect in the context of the Giants org. Played in college for a guy they know; looks and behaves (to his credit) like the previous franchise QB. No wonder he was selected at #6. In fact, was Gettleman even the prime mover in this decision? Then hanging on to Eli long past his play dropped off. Resistance to data, contrarian thought bleeds through the evaluation.
So what will change the organization's mediocre stability? I don't know but maybe it would be a very strong figure, someone on the order of Young, Parcels and Coughlin. Those are the only leaders under whom the Giants have flourished in the modern era.
there's problems with ownership, but working with Cutcliffe isn't one of them.
The issue is expertise at their duties. If they are terrible personnel scouts, then they don't belong in decision making roles.
I don't think relationships exclude them from being the very best at their jobs, but I admit... it's unlikely.
When a player comes here and plays worse than before, or goes to another team and becomes at least serviceable, it makes me think coaching is at the most fault. You’re never going to get the best possible player at every position, but good coaching will help minimize their weaknesses instead of making them repeatedly do something they fail at. At least I think that’s how it should be.
Part of the problem is our salary cap and the dead money. $23 Mill that Eli is costing is part$60 Million plus not being used toward starters. Can't get the best players without the money.
Also part of the problem was the dire need of critical positions and needing to overpay to fill those positions like Solder. Getting players to fulfill the needs of our DC is a trust factor between DG and Bettcher. These issues for the most part were not Gettlemen's fault.
IMO, all t he draft picks over the last 2 years, the trade for Williams are mostly on DG.
At some point the players need to play better and the coaches need to coach better and smarter.
I have not seen our coaches adjust very well, if anything they seem indignant to just run their systems without taking into account the lack of talent to run them. It is like they were told to stay the course and take you lumps because you are safe.
But there are also individuals who haven't proven themselves outside of the organization and have family or organizational connections. So you have an organization with mixed performance, where there is an aversion to change, and where certain individuals involved in decision making who are insulated and possibly disruptive due to family connections.
This organization makes some sound decisions, such as picking Jones, but a lot of bad ones, too. What will lead the organization to start demanding better performance and a higher hit rate? My answer: a transformational leader, either the HC or the GM.
The difference now is, we haven’t had that sneaky good fun season like we had in 1997. The giants went through a dark stretch from 91-96 that was virtually identical to 2012-2017. Same overall record. One playoff appearance and a stretch of mostly bad football. Six seasons total. One good year. 2 mostly average years and 3 bad years. Then 97-98 came along and fassel proceeded to go 18-13-1. Wasn’t pretty but it sure as hell wasn’t terrible either. The difference now is in 2018shurmur was hired to fix this mess or at least stop the bleeding and instead the giants have won 8-9 games over 2 seasons compared to 18 back then.
There wasn’t that 1997 season that changes the narrative. It got ugly, and stayed ugly. But maybe this roster has a better upside than that mid-late 90s team did, I’m just not a big believer in shurmur.
they also have mike tomlin...we have shurmur.
I think you are a 100% correct. The Steelers and the Giants have similar ways when conducting their business. It's just that right now they are better at it than we are.
I'll be interested to see how they handle the transition from Ben to ????
If the ownership does not want to acknowledge that, there is nothing that can be done.
Everyone of those close family members and associates is implicated in the current failures of the team, and it is almost certain that none of them will be replaced with a more competent or higher acheiving employee.
But this is where you need to depart from the fan perspective, and look at the owners: they are still making truckloads of money, while enjoying the prestige of their jobs which they did not earn. Would they really sacrifice their riches and pleasure for the team? Absolutely not. The team is for the owner, not visa-versa.
None of the nepotists have broader skillsets that would permit them to pay rent on a condo in North Jersey, let alone live a life close to what they have. They ain't going anywhere.
Chris Mara will likely succeed John Mara within ten years. Best case scenario is that it becomes addition by subtraction. Get as many cronies into irrelvant positions as possible.
Unless your in the org its hard to comment accurately if the nepotism is a good thing and these folks are talented or not
If you go back to Reeses picks for the org, they were so disasterous I would have to lean towards that this culture of hiring within the family is not working. Only by that body of work and what we have seen to date.
DG has changed this a bit hitting on some picks.
Sad thing is that it won't change whether we write about it or not. They own the business, run it into the ground or not, and we either continue to support and spend $$$ or don't until you see changes you like.
Reminds me of Succession.....on hbo
Narrative: obvious decline Eli.
Narrative: obvious decline Eli.
We weren't the top scoring offense in NFC East.. besides thats a very arbitrary way of defining the if your QB is actually better.. Also 2K rb tell you that Eli hasn't declined? How about the fact that under Eli in 2019 we averaged 15 or so points per game and under Jones we are averaging over 21..
Jerry Jones
Stephen Jones
Charlotte Jones Anderson
Jerry Jones Jr.
Cowboys - ( New Window )
Folks objecting to the gist of the OP say nepotism is ok, it's commonplace, why bitch? Well, the Dallas led nepotism has done far better in the past seven years, and filling positions with family members however many times removed doesn't seem like a good look when your organization is performing so shittily at what it does.
Narrative: obvious decline Eli.
Passer rating? What a joke.
7. They've won 7 games since Shurmur took over. 7.
Probably hard to count on your fingers with your hands wrapped around the pom-poms.
Yes, we need to be thankful that DG brought in Lauletta, McIntosh, Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, C. Slayton, and Asafo-Adjei.
I'm not saying these guys are all busts (although Lauletta is a wasted pick already), but how can you define any of it as "very good" yet?
But they have got to improve in their self-scouting and NFL scouting.
family has to acknowledge...could one person have that status here?
“ "I think one of the best things we do is communicate in the organization," said Garrett. "And Will does a great job not only leading that department but communicating with ownership, with coaches and kind of facilitating all of that to get everybody on the same page. We probably draft our best when we have good consensus among everybody."
One of the ways that McClay helps get everyone on the same page during a disagreement is to find out which player everyone likes.
"At some point you do just agree to disagree, and we try to avoid those players if we can’t get a consensus," said Stephen. "You try to find a player that fits at that level where there is a consensus. We’ve done a great job of that and I credit Will a lot. He’s just a tremendous consensus builder."
A part of what helps McClay to quickly and credibly present players to the coaches and the front office that each side agrees upon is his intense research for every draft class.
"He digs, digs, digs," said Jerry. "He’s done his homework. We’re having the job of having Gil [Brandt] be a part of this thing, who is the father of doing your homework, and getting out detailed information, and then bringing those facts to the table."
Another element is he spends considerable time with each group to determine what they are looking for in a player.
Said Stephen: "He spends a ton of time obviously with his staff. He also spends a ton of time with our coaching staff, with each position coach. And then of course he’s very intensively involved with Jerry and myself in terms of how he communicates. I think he’s as good as they get."
McClay has been a leader for the Cowboys when it comes to facilitating that process, and it is hard to argue with the results. Since 2014, when McClay was elevated to his current role, the Cowboys have found six Pro Bowlers and 16 starting caliber players in the draft.
One of the reasons why the Cowboys make the playoffs every two seasons seems to be because McClay hits on a great draft in the same span, and a strong rookie class buttresses a veteran team hunting for postseason success.“”
Also if Shurmur is THAT much of a disaster that he could completely torpedo a team with talent then it implies that we have idiots in charge that couldn't anticipate that.
I'd rather see the world where they are not idiots and just a little stuck in the past, willingness to pursue nepotism over innovation nurturing included.
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The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.
Yes, we need to be thankful that DG brought in Lauletta, McIntosh, Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, C. Slayton, and Asafo-Adjei.
I'm not saying these guys are all busts (although Lauletta is a wasted pick already), but how can you define any of it as "very good" yet?
I’m not sure why you didn’t include Barkley, Jones, Hill, Lawrence, Connelly, Xman, Golden, Hernandez, Peppers and Zeitler ... IMHO, The talent is there but right now it’s being wasted by the inept coaching staff.
The ONLY thing we can do as fans is stop supporting the team. Unfortunately and ironically, the NFL is set up to help support underperforming and small market teams. This was done by the family that runs OUR team, the Mara's. So even though nobody goes to the games or watches on tV, the league shares its revenue and a poorly run institution like the Giants will continue to return profits to its owners.
Quote:
In comment 14684594 Spider56 said:
Quote:
The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.
Yes, we need to be thankful that DG brought in Lauletta, McIntosh, Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, C. Slayton, and Asafo-Adjei.
I'm not saying these guys are all busts (although Lauletta is a wasted pick already), but how can you define any of it as "very good" yet?
I’m not sure why you didn’t include Barkley, Jones, Hill, Lawrence, Connelly, Xman, Golden, Hernandez, Peppers and Zeitler ... IMHO, The talent is there but right now it’s being wasted by the inept coaching staff.
Because "very good" should mean batting better than .500. I added all I needed to in order to prove my point.
Also, it feels a little like a reach to include Golden and Zeitler. For one thing, Golden is on a 1-year deal, so he's hardly foundational. For another, acquiring Zeitler included shipping out an even younger, more talented player. And notice that I didn't include Solder, Ogletree, Omameh, Stewart, Barwin, Martin, Mauro, Remmers, etc. Feels a little bit like you're cherry-picking for your own case, too.
Not surprising though - that's the only way anyone can even attempt to defend Résumé Dave.
I’m not sure why you didn’t include Barkley, Jones, Hill, Lawrence, Connelly, Xman, Golden, Hernandez, Peppers and Zeitler ... IMHO, The talent is there but right now it’s being wasted by the inept coaching staff. [/quote]
I agree we have an inept coaching staff but I think you're overating the talent and the job that Gettleman has done.
Barkley - great talent but should never have been the pick at #2 overall
Jones - has shown some promise and some serious flaws. Hopefully he turns out great but we won't know for *at least* another year whether he merits being #6 overall.
Xman - meh. We'd look a lot better had Max Crosby been the pick. He's becoming a pass rushing beast.
Golden - Assuming you mean Markus. I agree it was a good pickup.
Hernandez - Love his nastiness but do any of us think he's playing as well as we though/hoped he would?
Peppers - I don't think he's good, I don't think he sucks.
I have no way of knowing who is competent and who isn’t, but it’s reasonable to believe they are not doing the best job possible bringing in the best guys in.
There is a valid reason nepotism policies exist in successful organizations
there's problems with ownership, but working with Cutcliffe isn't one of them.
I would call this "lazy". There are other smart people out there, and to suggest Cutcliffe is the best is bullshit.
Pittsburg and Dallas seems to be doing fairly well.
So many posts include that assumption.
As of now a number of veteran acquisitions have abjectly failed, and a number of rookie acquisitions have not had demonstrable success.
Gettleman took the unprecedented step of moving away from nearly all the players he inherited. In turn, he's had an uncommon amoumt of high draft picks and chose his team.
Doesn't matter what the situation is, he's now gotta build a winner.
So many posts include that assumption.
As of now a number of veteran acquisitions have abjectly failed, and a number of rookie acquisitions have not had demonstrable success.
Gettleman took the unprecedented step of moving away from nearly all the players he inherited. In turn, he's had an uncommon amoumt of high draft picks and chose his team.
Doesn't matter what the situation is, he's now gotta build a winner.
Very well said!
Cosmicj, or a similar line of inquiry:
in that case they would be giving credence to his worries .
Proving the point at it were .
If, by contrast, said insiders would hypothetically open themselves to some new ways of communicating or doing business, then they could justify their positions. Or at least improve chance of beneficial w/L outcomes.
Possibly , when one has choice of venue each season (Bahamas my guess), loosing feels less annoying than it does for those of us living in someone's basement in the cheap end suburbs metaphorically or relatively .
Everything else has changed - the HC and coordinators, the GM and head of scouting, most of the players - and the results are even worse than before.
Talent acquisition and self scouting are completely borked.
I'm also concerned that just from some informal comparisons that it seems the scouting department is undersized. It was a question that I had immediately following the Finding Giants special on NFLN; I haven't been able to find a lot of concrete information on other teams, but in the handful of cases where I did, it seemed that other scouting organizations were structured very differently and sized considerably larger. Posters took that to say I was implying the Giants are cheap, but that's not true. They could easily be paying their existing staff twice what others are and the bill could be very much the same.
In the capped era where you're limited in what you can spend on player payroll, spending on things like scouting and coaching should be practically unlimited if you're having a hard time winning.
If the ownership does not want to acknowledge that, there is nothing that can be done.
Everyone of those close family members and associates is implicated in the current failures of the team, and it is almost certain that none of them will be replaced with a more competent or higher acheiving employee.
But this is where you need to depart from the fan perspective, and look at the owners: they are still making truckloads of money, while enjoying the prestige of their jobs which they did not earn. Would they really sacrifice their riches and pleasure for the team? Absolutely not. The team is for the owner, not visa-versa.
None of the nepotists have broader skillsets that would permit them to pay rent on a condo in North Jersey, let alone live a life close to what they have. They ain't going anywhere.
Chris Mara will likely succeed John Mara within ten years. Best case scenario is that it becomes addition by subtraction. Get as many cronies into irrelvant positions as possible.
Great post.
The NFL has clearly changed dramatically in the last 10 years; I do wonder how long it will take for Mara to finally realize that.
Probably easier to list the teams worse than the Giants, since they're fucking bottom dwellers.
I do believe once they get the right coaching staff in place, and clean up their poor UFA usage under DG, things will begin to improve. Two huge negative factors from DG's first two seasons that must turn around.
family has to acknowledge...could one person have that status here?
“ "I think one of the best things we do is communicate in the organization," said Garrett. "And Will does a great job not only leading that department but communicating with ownership, with coaches and kind of facilitating all of that to get everybody on the same page. We probably draft our best when we have good consensus among everybody."
One of the ways that McClay helps get everyone on the same page during a disagreement is to find out which player everyone likes.
"At some point you do just agree to disagree, and we try to avoid those players if we can’t get a consensus," said Stephen. "You try to find a player that fits at that level where there is a consensus. We’ve done a great job of that and I credit Will a lot. He’s just a tremendous consensus builder."
A part of what helps McClay to quickly and credibly present players to the coaches and the front office that each side agrees upon is his intense research for every draft class.
"He digs, digs, digs," said Jerry. "He’s done his homework. We’re having the job of having Gil [Brandt] be a part of this thing, who is the father of doing your homework, and getting out detailed information, and then bringing those facts to the table."
Another element is he spends considerable time with each group to determine what they are looking for in a player.
Said Stephen: "He spends a ton of time obviously with his staff. He also spends a ton of time with our coaching staff, with each position coach. And then of course he’s very intensively involved with Jerry and myself in terms of how he communicates. I think he’s as good as they get."
McClay has been a leader for the Cowboys when it comes to facilitating that process, and it is hard to argue with the results. Since 2014, when McClay was elevated to his current role, the Cowboys have found six Pro Bowlers and 16 starting caliber players in the draft.
One of the reasons why the Cowboys make the playoffs every two seasons seems to be because McClay hits on a great draft in the same span, and a strong rookie class buttresses a veteran team hunting for postseason success.“”
Good post. I didn’t know about McClay’s role.
After I read this, I looked him up. What an interesting road he’s traveled to get to where he is making big decisions for Dallas.
very well said...
Are Solder, Remmers, Stewart, Barwin, Bethea, Ogletree, Martin a coaching problem?