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Giants organizational culture, nepotism

cosmicj : 11/20/2019 9:57 am
I think everyone is aware that Chris Mara is SVP of Player Personnel. But did you know that the Asst Dir of Player Personnel, Tim McDonnell, is a Mara by blood (grandson of Wellington)? At a more junior level, Charles Tisch is Football Operations Assistant. In the Giants family, DJ Boisture, son of the long-time Giants scout, is regional scout (west). Chad Klunder, the new Scouting Coordinator, worked with Tim McDonnell at Notre Dame for several years. He was promoted to that position without any NFL experience.

Imagine what it's like being the Giants GM and, in general, working in an organization where several of your coworkers have an inside and very personal communication channel to the ownership? Simple business and football disagreements can take on a strong political overtone. Gettleman has imported several experienced NFL front office personnel into the Giants org (e.g. Mark Koncz most prominently but also someone like Brendan Prophett, a new scout coming over from the Lions). I don't know whether they feel comfortable taking contrarian positions on football matters given the strong family and insider culture.

Gettleman has also retained many of the scouts hired by Ross and Reese in the middle of the decade, and promoted Chris Pettit, a long time Giants scout, to Dir ofd College Scouting. The bios of the Giants organization reflect an unusual level of continuity in what is a very disruptive line of work, featuring constant personnel changes. And the level of cross pollination with other franchises is just surprisingly low. Probably a majority of the scouts and pro personnel staff have NO - zero - NFL experience working for other franchises.

If you go beyond a few of the leaders in the Giants organization, it looks like a very stable and insular community. Is change possible in an organization such as this one, marked by gated monopoly power and some past success? Looking at it objectively, this looks like a very mediocre organization that will automatically resist change and fall back naturally into confirmation bias.

I have high hopes for Daniel Jones, who I think is an exceptional talent, but even his selection looks suspect in the context of the Giants org. Played in college for a guy they know; looks and behaves (to his credit) like the previous franchise QB. No wonder he was selected at #6. In fact, was Gettleman even the prime mover in this decision? Then hanging on to Eli long past his play dropped off. Resistance to data, contrarian thought bleeds through the evaluation.

So what will change the organization's mediocre stability? I don't know but maybe it would be a very strong figure, someone on the order of Young, Parcels and Coughlin. Those are the only leaders under whom the Giants have flourished in the modern era.
...  
ryanmkeane : 11/20/2019 10:04 am : link
Gettleman has a really good track record as player personnel with Giants and GM at Carolina. Let's give him another year to put more pieces together for this team before we throw him out the door. We have our QB, RB, and some pieces on the DL and OL...now we need to just keep building through draft and (hopefully) smart FA signings. Reese had 6 drafts in a row that completely hollowed out the talent on this team. Let's give this another year.
cosmicj  
ryanmkeane : 11/20/2019 10:06 am : link
I don't fully grasp your point about Daniel Jones. You are saying you have high hopes for him, he looks like an exceptional talent, he is playing great for a rookie all things considered...and yet...you think it was weird that the Giants took him? Jones could end up being the best player taken in that draft. How is this bad that the Giants selected him?
cosmicj  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2019 10:08 am : link
Granted it's a relatively small sample size, but they need to figure out why they have been so much worse at evaluating players who are already in the NFL. You'd think that would be an easier evaluation than projecting how college kids would do.
Cutcliff  
UConn4523 : 11/20/2019 10:10 am : link
isn't just "a guy they known", that's an extremely poor take on that scenario. Cutcliffe works with the Mannings, obviously that's the connection, but he's a highly regarded QB guru. His insight shouldn't be discounted just because he's familiar (or even friends, I don't know, doesn't matter) with the Maras.

there's problems with ownership, but working with Cutcliffe isn't one of them.
I don't care about the family ties,  
ATL_Giants : 11/20/2019 10:15 am : link
if my nieces and nephews wanted to be in on the family business, I'd probably really enjoy that.

The issue is expertise at their duties. If they are terrible personnel scouts, then they don't belong in decision making roles.
I don't think relationships exclude them from being the very best at their jobs, but I admit... it's unlikely.
And  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/20/2019 10:16 am : link
as bad as we knock the Giants, keep in mind that everyone and their mother was telling the team they should have drafted Haskins over Jones.
I get what you are saying, but the Steelers run similarly and have  
Zeke's Alibi : 11/20/2019 10:17 am : link
the most talented teams year in and year out because of their ability to identify college talent.
I thought it was a very well-thought out and reasoned post  
FranknWeezer : 11/20/2019 10:20 am : link
Lot of good points made. Disturbing when you think we are stuck with this sort of insider culture, and there's no end in sight.
A lot of assumptions  
darren in pdx : 11/20/2019 10:22 am : link
based on a lot of information we donít know. We donít know who is and isnít Ďgoodí at their jobs. We donít know what anyone really does or what goes on behind the scenes. Thereís also so many outside factors and variables to consider that I couldnít possibly make an opinion on anything of this other than some decisions at the top of the chain havenít worked out.

When a player comes here and plays worse than before, or goes to another team and becomes at least serviceable, it makes me think coaching is at the most fault. Youíre never going to get the best possible player at every position, but good coaching will help minimize their weaknesses instead of making them repeatedly do something they fail at. At least I think thatís how it should be.
Pro Player evaluation is part of the problem no doubt  
Rjanyg : 11/20/2019 10:25 am : link
Ironically this is what Gettlemen did for NYG before he left for Carolina.

Part of the problem is our salary cap and the dead money. $23 Mill that Eli is costing is part$60 Million plus not being used toward starters. Can't get the best players without the money.

Also part of the problem was the dire need of critical positions and needing to overpay to fill those positions like Solder. Getting players to fulfill the needs of our DC is a trust factor between DG and Bettcher. These issues for the most part were not Gettlemen's fault.

IMO, all t he draft picks over the last 2 years, the trade for Williams are mostly on DG.

At some point the players need to play better and the coaches need to coach better and smarter.

I have not seen our coaches adjust very well, if anything they seem indignant to just run their systems without taking into account the lack of talent to run them. It is like they were told to stay the course and take you lumps because you are safe.

Let me clarify - there are individuals that are part of the Giants org  
cosmicj : 11/20/2019 10:26 am : link
who are high performing, including some players, front office people and members of the coaching staff. That includes affiliated individuals like Cutcliffe. I also suspect some of the scouts are excellent, but that is a hunch and hard to substantiate. (Some of the late round drafting when Marc Ross isn't in charge has been quality work.)

But there are also individuals who haven't proven themselves outside of the organization and have family or organizational connections. So you have an organization with mixed performance, where there is an aversion to change, and where certain individuals involved in decision making who are insulated and possibly disruptive due to family connections.

This organization makes some sound decisions, such as picking Jones, but a lot of bad ones, too. What will lead the organization to start demanding better performance and a higher hit rate? My answer: a transformational leader, either the HC or the GM.
Giants are an easy target lately  
djm : 11/20/2019 10:29 am : link
But this nepotism, ďnyg wayĒ or whatever fans want to call it, and fans around here love to hate ďitĒ, but this shit has been going on here for decades now. Same fans throwing around the same negative platitudes that nothing will ever work here again unless, are the same ones probably crushing the giants at the tail end of the George young era, back in 97, when the giants transitioned over to Ernie Accorsi. Same shit, different day.

The difference now is, we havenít had that sneaky good fun season like we had in 1997. The giants went through a dark stretch from 91-96 that was virtually identical to 2012-2017. Same overall record. One playoff appearance and a stretch of mostly bad football. Six seasons total. One good year. 2 mostly average years and 3 bad years. Then 97-98 came along and fassel proceeded to go 18-13-1. Wasnít pretty but it sure as hell wasnít terrible either. The difference now is in 2018shurmur was hired to fix this mess or at least stop the bleeding and instead the giants have won 8-9 games over 2 seasons compared to 18 back then.

There wasnít that 1997 season that changes the narrative. It got ugly, and stayed ugly. But maybe this roster has a better upside than that mid-late 90s team did, Iím just not a big believer in shurmur.

RE: cosmicj  
cosmicj : 11/20/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14684493 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
I don't fully grasp your point about Daniel Jones. You are saying you have high hopes for him, he looks like an exceptional talent, he is playing great for a rookie all things considered...and yet...you think it was weird that the Giants took him? Jones could end up being the best player taken in that draft. How is this bad that the Giants selected him?
Ryan - I am questioning whether the objective evaluation of Jones' talent was actually secondary to his presentation and background credentials. Good decisions, like picking him, can be made on the basis of flawed process. That doesn't inspire confidence in future decisionmaking.
RE: I get what you are saying, but the Steelers run similarly and have  
peteschweaty : 11/20/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14684514 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
the most talented teams year in and year out because of their ability to identify college talent.


they also have mike tomlin...we have shurmur.
RE: I get what you are saying, but the Steelers run similarly and have  
Dnew15 : 11/20/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14684514 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
the most talented teams year in and year out because of their ability to identify college talent.


I think you are a 100% correct. The Steelers and the Giants have similar ways when conducting their business. It's just that right now they are better at it than we are.

I'll be interested to see how they handle the transition from Ben to ????
I feel like  
Les in TO : 11/20/2019 10:59 am : link
They need to hire McKinsey to do a deep dive into the causes of their recent stretch of ineptitude relative to successful teams.
RE: And  
Chip : 11/20/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14684512 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
as bad as we knock the Giants, keep in mind that everyone and their mother was telling the team they should have drafted Haskins over Jones.
Also Rosen or Darnold the year before.
Nepotism is a absolute losing culture  
WideRight : 11/20/2019 11:02 am : link

If the ownership does not want to acknowledge that, there is nothing that can be done.

Everyone of those close family members and associates is implicated in the current failures of the team, and it is almost certain that none of them will be replaced with a more competent or higher acheiving employee.

But this is where you need to depart from the fan perspective, and look at the owners: they are still making truckloads of money, while enjoying the prestige of their jobs which they did not earn. Would they really sacrifice their riches and pleasure for the team? Absolutely not. The team is for the owner, not visa-versa.

None of the nepotists have broader skillsets that would permit them to pay rent on a condo in North Jersey, let alone live a life close to what they have. They ain't going anywhere.

Chris Mara will likely succeed John Mara within ten years. Best case scenario is that it becomes addition by subtraction. Get as many cronies into irrelvant positions as possible.
Culture  
richinpa : 11/20/2019 11:11 am : link
Good points I think.

Unless your in the org its hard to comment accurately if the nepotism is a good thing and these folks are talented or not

If you go back to Reeses picks for the org, they were so disasterous I would have to lean towards that this culture of hiring within the family is not working. Only by that body of work and what we have seen to date.

DG has changed this a bit hitting on some picks.

Sad thing is that it won't change whether we write about it or not. They own the business, run it into the ground or not, and we either continue to support and spend $$$ or don't until you see changes you like.

Reminds me of Succession.....on hbo
This post is way off on the real issue with the Giants ...  
Spider56 : 11/20/2019 11:13 am : link
The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.
Objective fact  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/20/2019 11:17 am : link
Eli 90+ passer rating, top scoring offense in NFC east, 2000 yard rookie RB.

Narrative: obvious decline Eli.
RE: Objective fact  
chuckydee9 : 11/20/2019 11:22 am : link
In comment 14684597 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Eli 90+ passer rating, top scoring offense in NFC east, 2000 yard rookie RB.

Narrative: obvious decline Eli.


We weren't the top scoring offense in NFC East.. besides thats a very arbitrary way of defining the if your QB is actually better.. Also 2K rb tell you that Eli hasn't declined? How about the fact that under Eli in 2019 we averaged 15 or so points per game and under Jones we are averaging over 21..
I can't believe this still bothers people  
jestersdead : 11/20/2019 11:41 am : link
Have you looked at other franchises and their family ties? Every organization does it! Take a look at the big 4 in Dallas:

Jerry Jones
Stephen Jones
Charlotte Jones Anderson
Jerry Jones Jr.
Cowboys - ( New Window )
cosmic  
ryanmkeane : 11/20/2019 12:11 pm : link
i get what you are saying. But it would appear that from all the QBs the Giants had to pick from the past 2 seasons, they were correct.
I think focusing on DJ speaks past  
ColHowPepper : 11/20/2019 12:20 pm : link
the point of the OP. I'm with Weezer and the OP: I had zero idea the nepotism went far beyond Tim.

Folks objecting to the gist of the OP say nepotism is ok, it's commonplace, why bitch? Well, the Dallas led nepotism has done far better in the past seven years, and filling positions with family members however many times removed doesn't seem like a good look when your organization is performing so shittily at what it does.
RE: Objective fact  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/20/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14684597 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Eli 90+ passer rating, top scoring offense in NFC east, 2000 yard rookie RB.

Narrative: obvious decline Eli.


Passer rating? What a joke.
RE: Giants are an easy target lately  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14684542 djm said:
Quote:
The difference now is in 2018shurmur was hired to fix this mess or at least stop the bleeding and instead the giants have won 8-9 games over 2 seasons compared to 18 back then.

7. They've won 7 games since Shurmur took over. 7.

Probably hard to count on your fingers with your hands wrapped around the pom-poms.
spider56 nails it.  
Red Dog : 11/20/2019 12:37 pm : link
.
RE: This post is way off on the real issue with the Giants ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14684594 Spider56 said:
Quote:
The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.

Yes, we need to be thankful that DG brought in Lauletta, McIntosh, Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, C. Slayton, and Asafo-Adjei.

I'm not saying these guys are all busts (although Lauletta is a wasted pick already), but how can you define any of it as "very good" yet?
The Giants self-scouting and NFL scouting is horrible  
moespree : 11/20/2019 12:49 pm : link
And has been horrible for some time. Sticking too long with players on the roster, misreading players from other teams, FA busts, the list goes on. As bad as it has been they're actually lucky their college scouting has been slightly better or these 5 win seasons would be 2 win seasons.

But they have got to improve in their self-scouting and NFL scouting.
Will McClay has been the difference in Dallas  
Defenderdawg : 11/20/2019 12:56 pm : link
His success with the Draft and UDFAís gives him a stature that the Jones
family has to acknowledge...could one person have that status here?

ď "I think one of the best things we do is communicate in the organization," said Garrett. "And Will does a great job not only leading that department but communicating with ownership, with coaches and kind of facilitating all of that to get everybody on the same page. We probably draft our best when we have good consensus among everybody."

One of the ways that McClay helps get everyone on the same page during a disagreement is to find out which player everyone likes.

"At some point you do just agree to disagree, and we try to avoid those players if we canít get a consensus," said Stephen. "You try to find a player that fits at that level where there is a consensus. Weíve done a great job of that and I credit Will a lot. Heís just a tremendous consensus builder."

A part of what helps McClay to quickly and credibly present players to the coaches and the front office that each side agrees upon is his intense research for every draft class.

"He digs, digs, digs," said Jerry. "Heís done his homework. Weíre having the job of having Gil [Brandt] be a part of this thing, who is the father of doing your homework, and getting out detailed information, and then bringing those facts to the table."

Another element is he spends considerable time with each group to determine what they are looking for in a player.

Said Stephen: "He spends a ton of time obviously with his staff. He also spends a ton of time with our coaching staff, with each position coach. And then of course heís very intensively involved with Jerry and myself in terms of how he communicates. I think heís as good as they get."

McClay has been a leader for the Cowboys when it comes to facilitating that process, and it is hard to argue with the results. Since 2014, when McClay was elevated to his current role, the Cowboys have found six Pro Bowlers and 16 starting caliber players in the draft.

One of the reasons why the Cowboys make the playoffs every two seasons seems to be because McClay hits on a great draft in the same span, and a strong rookie class buttresses a veteran team hunting for postseason success.ďĒ
It's continually puzzling that  
NoGainDayne : 11/20/2019 1:00 pm : link
that the team could be this bad and people insist that the talent is there. If this isn't a failure at every level of team construction I don't know what is.

Also if Shurmur is THAT much of a disaster that he could completely torpedo a team with talent then it implies that we have idiots in charge that couldn't anticipate that.

I'd rather see the world where they are not idiots and just a little stuck in the past, willingness to pursue nepotism over innovation nurturing included.
RE: RE: This post is way off on the real issue with the Giants ...  
Spider56 : 11/20/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14684726 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14684594 Spider56 said:


Quote:


The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.


Yes, we need to be thankful that DG brought in Lauletta, McIntosh, Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, C. Slayton, and Asafo-Adjei.

I'm not saying these guys are all busts (although Lauletta is a wasted pick already), but how can you define any of it as "very good" yet?


Iím not sure why you didnít include Barkley, Jones, Hill, Lawrence, Connelly, Xman, Golden, Hernandez, Peppers and Zeitler ... IMHO, The talent is there but right now itís being wasted by the inept coaching staff.
Only needed to see one episode of "Finding Giants"....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 11/20/2019 1:15 pm : link
....5 years ago to see the true internal clown show on full display.
Odd time to be pointing to hill as some kind of gold star draft pick  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/20/2019 1:23 pm : link
when they went out of their way to trade a 3rd round pick to take his place in the lineup.

I agree with Cosmic  
Dinger : 11/20/2019 1:27 pm : link
I have NO problem with Nepotism in a family run business. The PROBLEM is is if that nepotism leads to poor performance. There is NO doubt that other teams have family relationships scattered throughout the operation. Do they have success. To they have sustained subpar and worse performance. Are they held accountable for their performance?
The ONLY thing we can do as fans is stop supporting the team. Unfortunately and ironically, the NFL is set up to help support underperforming and small market teams. This was done by the family that runs OUR team, the Mara's. So even though nobody goes to the games or watches on tV, the league shares its revenue and a poorly run institution like the Giants will continue to return profits to its owners.
RE: RE: RE: This post is way off on the real issue with the Giants ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/20/2019 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14684765 Spider56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14684726 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14684594 Spider56 said:


Quote:


The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.


Yes, we need to be thankful that DG brought in Lauletta, McIntosh, Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, C. Slayton, and Asafo-Adjei.

I'm not saying these guys are all busts (although Lauletta is a wasted pick already), but how can you define any of it as "very good" yet?



Iím not sure why you didnít include Barkley, Jones, Hill, Lawrence, Connelly, Xman, Golden, Hernandez, Peppers and Zeitler ... IMHO, The talent is there but right now itís being wasted by the inept coaching staff.

Because "very good" should mean batting better than .500. I added all I needed to in order to prove my point.

Also, it feels a little like a reach to include Golden and Zeitler. For one thing, Golden is on a 1-year deal, so he's hardly foundational. For another, acquiring Zeitler included shipping out an even younger, more talented player. And notice that I didn't include Solder, Ogletree, Omameh, Stewart, Barwin, Martin, Mauro, Remmers, etc. Feels a little bit like you're cherry-picking for your own case, too.

Not surprising though - that's the only way anyone can even attempt to defend Rťsumť Dave.
RE: RE: RE: This post is way off on the real issue with the Giants ...  
BlueVinnie : 11/20/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14684765 Spider56 said:


Iím not sure why you didnít include Barkley, Jones, Hill, Lawrence, Connelly, Xman, Golden, Hernandez, Peppers and Zeitler ... IMHO, The talent is there but right now itís being wasted by the inept coaching staff. [/quote]




I agree we have an inept coaching staff but I think you're overating the talent and the job that Gettleman has done.

Barkley - great talent but should never have been the pick at #2 overall

Jones - has shown some promise and some serious flaws. Hopefully he turns out great but we won't know for *at least* another year whether he merits being #6 overall.

Xman - meh. We'd look a lot better had Max Crosby been the pick. He's becoming a pass rushing beast.

Golden - Assuming you mean Markus. I agree it was a good pickup.

Hernandez - Love his nastiness but do any of us think he's playing as well as we though/hoped he would?

Peppers - I don't think he's good, I don't think he sucks.
Good post  
ron mexico : 11/20/2019 1:46 pm : link
It makes internal front office performance evaluations difficult with such strong ties and in some cases, some level of ownership.

I have no way of knowing who is competent and who isnít, but itís reasonable to believe they are not doing the best job possible bringing in the best guys in.

There is a valid reason nepotism policies exist in successful organizations
RE: Cutcliff  
mdc1 : 11/20/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14684498 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
isn't just "a guy they known", that's an extremely poor take on that scenario. Cutcliffe works with the Mannings, obviously that's the connection, but he's a highly regarded QB guru. His insight shouldn't be discounted just because he's familiar (or even friends, I don't know, doesn't matter) with the Maras.

there's problems with ownership, but working with Cutcliffe isn't one of them.


I would call this "lazy". There are other smart people out there, and to suggest Cutcliffe is the best is bullshit.
I prefer dealing with family businesses  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/20/2019 3:19 pm : link
and their superior products and services over a public or state controlled corporation.

Pittsburg and Dallas seems to be doing fairly well.
And the NFL  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/20/2019 3:20 pm : link
was more a less a family business lead by the likes of Mara and Rooney's which accounts for much of its success.
The issue with nepotism  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/20/2019 3:40 pm : link
is precisely that when things are going wrong, accountability suffers and objective decisions can't be made when family is involved.
...  
christian : 11/20/2019 4:00 pm : link
There's no reason to believe just because it was a Gettleman acquisition, it will therefore eventually succeed.

So many posts include that assumption.

As of now a number of veteran acquisitions have abjectly failed, and a number of rookie acquisitions have not had demonstrable success.

Gettleman took the unprecedented step of moving away from nearly all the players he inherited. In turn, he's had an uncommon amoumt of high draft picks and chose his team.

Doesn't matter what the situation is, he's now gotta build a winner.
RE: ...  
BlueVinnie : 11/20/2019 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14684909 christian said:
Quote:
There's no reason to believe just because it was a Gettleman acquisition, it will therefore eventually succeed.

So many posts include that assumption.

As of now a number of veteran acquisitions have abjectly failed, and a number of rookie acquisitions have not had demonstrable success.

Gettleman took the unprecedented step of moving away from nearly all the players he inherited. In turn, he's had an uncommon amoumt of high draft picks and chose his team.

Doesn't matter what the situation is, he's now gotta build a winner.



Very well said!
So who is the  
Jay in Toronto : 11/20/2019 5:06 pm : link
Logan Roy?
If hypothetically , be said  
idiotsavant : 11/20/2019 5:18 pm : link
Insiders would refuse to listen to Me.
Cosmicj, or a similar line of inquiry:

in that case they would be giving credence to his worries .

Proving the point at it were .

If, by contrast, said insiders would hypothetically open themselves to some new ways of communicating or doing business, then they could justify their positions. Or at least improve chance of beneficial w/L outcomes.

Possibly , when one has choice of venue each season (Bahamas my guess), loosing feels less annoying than it does for those of us living in someone's basement in the cheap end suburbs metaphorically or relatively .
Typo. Mr. Cosmicj  
idiotsavant : 11/20/2019 5:19 pm : link
Not "me, cosmicj"
This is a great post cosmic  
jcn56 : 11/20/2019 6:44 pm : link
I've raised concerns about this a bunch of times, from the nepotism to the lack of turnover and new voices in a room dominated by insiders/family.

Everything else has changed - the HC and coordinators, the GM and head of scouting, most of the players - and the results are even worse than before.

Talent acquisition and self scouting are completely borked.

I'm also concerned that just from some informal comparisons that it seems the scouting department is undersized. It was a question that I had immediately following the Finding Giants special on NFLN; I haven't been able to find a lot of concrete information on other teams, but in the handful of cases where I did, it seemed that other scouting organizations were structured very differently and sized considerably larger. Posters took that to say I was implying the Giants are cheap, but that's not true. They could easily be paying their existing staff twice what others are and the bill could be very much the same.

In the capped era where you're limited in what you can spend on player payroll, spending on things like scouting and coaching should be practically unlimited if you're having a hard time winning.
RE: Nepotism is a absolute losing culture  
SirLoinOfBeef : 11/20/2019 7:04 pm : link
In comment 14684582 WideRight said:
Quote:

If the ownership does not want to acknowledge that, there is nothing that can be done.

Everyone of those close family members and associates is implicated in the current failures of the team, and it is almost certain that none of them will be replaced with a more competent or higher acheiving employee.

But this is where you need to depart from the fan perspective, and look at the owners: they are still making truckloads of money, while enjoying the prestige of their jobs which they did not earn. Would they really sacrifice their riches and pleasure for the team? Absolutely not. The team is for the owner, not visa-versa.

None of the nepotists have broader skillsets that would permit them to pay rent on a condo in North Jersey, let alone live a life close to what they have. They ain't going anywhere.

Chris Mara will likely succeed John Mara within ten years. Best case scenario is that it becomes addition by subtraction. Get as many cronies into irrelvant positions as possible.


Great post.
People get on me for being negative,  
Go Terps : 11/20/2019 7:15 pm : link
but I've actually tried to stay positive with regards to John Mara. I think he's a smart guy and well intentioned. I think winning is very important to him. So from that standpoint I'd say we could do much worse. I do think there is hope for change...but it has to come from him. He has to be willing to acknowledge the need for an outside perspective to refresh the organization from top to bottom, and I don't even think the rampant nepotism necessarily has to impede that.

The NFL has clearly changed dramatically in the last 10 years; I do wonder how long it will take for Mara to finally realize that.
Name a team that doesn't have nepotism  
Mendenhall64 : 11/20/2019 7:16 pm : link
in the organization.
RE: Name a team that doesn't have nepotism  
jcn56 : 11/20/2019 8:30 pm : link
In comment 14685051 Mendenhall64 said:
Quote:
in the organization.


Probably easier to list the teams worse than the Giants, since they're fucking bottom dwellers.
Nepotism is part of the calculus  
JonC : 11/21/2019 9:29 am : link
but how to gauge its impact and doing anything about it are exercises in futility. We simply lack facts.

I do believe once they get the right coaching staff in place, and clean up their poor UFA usage under DG, things will begin to improve. Two huge negative factors from DG's first two seasons that must turn around.
RE: Will McClay has been the difference in Dallas  
bw in dc : 11/21/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14684740 Defenderdawg said:
Quote:
His success with the Draft and UDFAís gives him a stature that the Jones
family has to acknowledge...could one person have that status here?

ď "I think one of the best things we do is communicate in the organization," said Garrett. "And Will does a great job not only leading that department but communicating with ownership, with coaches and kind of facilitating all of that to get everybody on the same page. We probably draft our best when we have good consensus among everybody."

One of the ways that McClay helps get everyone on the same page during a disagreement is to find out which player everyone likes.

"At some point you do just agree to disagree, and we try to avoid those players if we canít get a consensus," said Stephen. "You try to find a player that fits at that level where there is a consensus. Weíve done a great job of that and I credit Will a lot. Heís just a tremendous consensus builder."

A part of what helps McClay to quickly and credibly present players to the coaches and the front office that each side agrees upon is his intense research for every draft class.

"He digs, digs, digs," said Jerry. "Heís done his homework. Weíre having the job of having Gil [Brandt] be a part of this thing, who is the father of doing your homework, and getting out detailed information, and then bringing those facts to the table."

Another element is he spends considerable time with each group to determine what they are looking for in a player.

Said Stephen: "He spends a ton of time obviously with his staff. He also spends a ton of time with our coaching staff, with each position coach. And then of course heís very intensively involved with Jerry and myself in terms of how he communicates. I think heís as good as they get."

McClay has been a leader for the Cowboys when it comes to facilitating that process, and it is hard to argue with the results. Since 2014, when McClay was elevated to his current role, the Cowboys have found six Pro Bowlers and 16 starting caliber players in the draft.

One of the reasons why the Cowboys make the playoffs every two seasons seems to be because McClay hits on a great draft in the same span, and a strong rookie class buttresses a veteran team hunting for postseason success.ďĒ


Good post. I didnít know about McClayís role.

After I read this, I looked him up. What an interesting road heís traveled to get to where he is making big decisions for Dallas.
the problem with the Giants is not  
Jersey55 : 11/21/2019 4:55 pm : link
Dave Gettleman because as GM he can only bring in what the team needs he can't get them to play better, that's the coaches job and IMO there in lies the problem.
RE: This post is way off on the real issue with the Giants ...  
Jersey55 : 11/21/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14684594 Spider56 said:
Quote:
The Owners put their faith in DG and he is is doing a very good job at bringing in young talent ...the one critical mistake they made is bringing in PS who in turn brought in a bunch of nincanpoops to develop the talent ... and they are all failing miserably. This is recoverable if they have the balls to act and clean the coaching house at year end.


very well said...
RE: the problem with the Giants is not  
Gatorade Dunk : 11/21/2019 5:45 pm : link
In comment 14685970 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
Dave Gettleman because as GM he can only bring in what the team needs he can't get them to play better, that's the coaches job and IMO there in lies the problem.

Are Solder, Remmers, Stewart, Barwin, Bethea, Ogletree, Martin a coaching problem?
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