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Sophomore Slump or Poor Coaching ? - Last Year's Draft Class

Andrew in Austin : 11/21/2019 9:47 am
Many (myself definitely included) felt great about our draft class from last year. We saw several of the rookies flash potential and frankly Saquon gave us an amazing performance.

The most trouble I am having is the regression they are showing. There is a good article in the NY Post this morning "Revisiting Giants' 2018 Draft Class" that really highlights how poorly they have performed this year.

I gave DG a ton of credit for the draft class last year, and I lean toward our coaches being squarely responsible for making sure our players improve.

What say you? Did we overestimate the draft class or are our coaches just not capable of taking these players forward? Maybe both? If history is an indicator of the future, next year DJ8 is going to look like Baker Mayfield if this continues . . .
Mostly overestimation  
jcn56 : 11/21/2019 9:59 am : link
look at what a lot of people made out of BJ Hill based on one game. I continuously read about Connelly - who had a whopping 3 games to his credit, his best one against a Washington team that is awful and whose coach was about to get the axe.
In the case of the Giants  
djstat : 11/21/2019 9:59 am : link
I think coaching has hurt this team. Shurmer seems to have no idea how to maximize Barkley. Betticher seems to have no clue what he is doing.

The schemes impact position coaches and thus growth is stunted.

It's not talked about much, but don't discount the drop from Manning  
Britt in VA : 11/21/2019 10:05 am : link
to Jones in terms of reading the defense, making adjustments at the line, getting guys into the right protection, changing plays to better suit what the defense is giving them, etc...

These are necessary growing pains for Jones, but don't discount the affect it has on other players.
RE: Mostly overestimation  
Toth029 : 11/21/2019 10:05 am : link
In comment 14685387 jcn56 said:
Quote:
look at what a lot of people made out of BJ Hill based on one game. I continuously read about Connelly - who had a whopping 3 games to his credit, his best one against a Washington team that is awful and whose coach was about to get the axe.


I wanted Connelly to start Day 1 over Davis and sooner than later, supplant Ogletree. His preseason work was very well done and you could see his instincts shine.
You guys do realize the opponents' players and coaches  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2019 10:13 am : link
get paid too. One of the items on their to do list is to watch film, break down tendencies and devise countermeasures. Sometimes, it takes a few games for them to figure it out, but they will figure out.

In Barkley's case, it doesn't take a mastermind to figure out that stopping Barkley is Job #1 and forget the rookie qb and junky receivers. Has been working like a charm. Barkley had 2000 yards and 15 td's last season. This season 650 yards and 3 td's. What's wrong with Barkley? A rookie qb is what is wrong with Barkley.

Guys like Hill and Hernandez have been figured out and their weaknesses attacked. They either need to now shore up their weaknesses or they are not long for the League. That is the way of things.
RE: It's not talked about much, but don't discount the drop from Manning  
jcn56 : 11/21/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14685396 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
to Jones in terms of reading the defense, making adjustments at the line, getting guys into the right protection, changing plays to better suit what the defense is giving them, etc...

These are necessary growing pains for Jones, but don't discount the affect it has on other players.


There are pluses and minuses there as well though - Jones' increased mobility makes it much easier for him to buy time to avoid sacks.

If you're referring specifically to Barkley, I think most would agree it's probably more his not being 100% and less anything else, although I think you have a point in that it's taking a weakness that was reportedly in his game since college (pass pro) and magnifying it.
RE: RE: Mostly overestimation  
HomerJones45 : 11/21/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14685397 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 14685387 jcn56 said:


Quote:


look at what a lot of people made out of BJ Hill based on one game. I continuously read about Connelly - who had a whopping 3 games to his credit, his best one against a Washington team that is awful and whose coach was about to get the axe.



I wanted Connelly to start Day 1 over Davis and sooner than later, supplant Ogletree. His preseason work was very well done and you could see his instincts shine.
Connolly has played 3 games. What are his weaknesses because sooner or later OC's will find those and exploit them. Only then will you see whether he is actually better that whoever he is replacing.
It's a few things  
JonC : 11/21/2019 10:16 am : link
It's part coaching, part what Homer pointed out about scheme to attack weakness, and part the talent on the whole is severely lacking.

The receiver corps was a really poor gamble on DG's part, I think he capitulated to Shurmur on trading OB, which is a sore spot. They did a poor job self-scouting the LB unit, FS, OL, and even their DL choices aren't performing great.


The NY Post article  
Pete in MD : 11/21/2019 10:23 am : link
in the OP once again quotes PFF grades as gospel.
Seriously, if itís 1 or 2 guys you can say itís the players ... but  
Spider56 : 11/21/2019 10:24 am : link
Not 1 of last years class is playing up to the potential they showed ... this is 100% on the coaches ... be it bad schemes, worsening technique or just plain confusion... PS brought in a bunch of nitwits (except ST) and they are reaping what they showed. Even from this years rookies and other young vets, who except maybe for Jones and Slayton are getting better each week ? Just plain bad coaching.
Connelly did look a helluva lot better than any of the other jokers  
Greg from LI : 11/21/2019 10:27 am : link
they've been running out at LB for years and years, I'll say that much. Yes, it was a very small sample and teams would start to diagnose weaknesses over time, but he at least showed real promise.
More than anything else, this shows why itís stupid...  
sb from NYT Forum : 11/21/2019 10:33 am : link
...to judge a draft class after one or two years. Itís just as stupid to say that the 2018 draft class is great as it is to say they are bad. Way too soon to judge.
RE: You guys do realize the opponents' players and coaches  
Gmen1982 : 11/21/2019 10:36 am : link
In comment 14685401 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
get paid too. One of the items on their to do list is to watch film, break down tendencies and devise countermeasures. Sometimes, it takes a few games for them to figure it out, but they will figure out.

In Barkley's case, it doesn't take a mastermind to figure out that stopping Barkley is Job #1 and forget the rookie qb and junky receivers. Has been working like a charm. Barkley had 2000 yards and 15 td's last season. This season 650 yards and 3 td's. What's wrong with Barkley? A rookie qb is what is wrong with Barkley.

Guys like Hill and Hernandez have been figured out and their weaknesses attacked. They either need to now shore up their weaknesses or they are not long for the League. That is the way of things.


Barkley is also hurt. I guess that's on coaching too.
RE: It's a few things  
jcn56 : 11/21/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14685405 JonC said:
Quote:
It's part coaching, part what Homer pointed out about scheme to attack weakness, and part the talent on the whole is severely lacking.

The receiver corps was a really poor gamble on DG's part, I think he capitulated to Shurmur on trading OB, which is a sore spot. They did a poor job self-scouting the LB unit, FS, OL, and even their DL choices aren't performing great.



That's interesting Jon - you think that DG capitulated on the trade and not the other way around? To me it seemed like once OBJ was traded Shurmur was screwed, and given the instability of his position in the org vs DG, he'd have much less incentive to move on OBJ than DG would.
RE: Connelly did look a helluva lot better than any of the other jokers  
jcn56 : 11/21/2019 11:12 am : link
In comment 14685415 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
they've been running out at LB for years and years, I'll say that much. Yes, it was a very small sample and teams would start to diagnose weaknesses over time, but he at least showed real promise.


The problem has been unrealistic expectations. The talent level has been and continues to be poor, so any glimmer of hope gets extrapolated too far out. You take a guy like Connelly, who flashes a bit and might be able to exceed expectations for a 5th rounder and after 3 games people are penciling him in as a long term solution expected to perform at a high level and solidly in the 'win' column for DG.

Let's hope he comes back without having lost any of his quickness and he at least turns out to be a solid contributor, which for a 5th round pick would be good.
Coaching  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/21/2019 11:31 am : link
just looking at some of these questionable assistant coach hires.

Why does garbage round picks Jacobs and Bradshaw block like Mike Alstott, hell even Ward got in on the action, but Hand of God blocks like garbage? And Jamal Adams timing when we snap at near 0 secs, what's taking so long with a QB that doesn't audible?
Too early  
Les in TO : 11/21/2019 11:32 am : link
To call the draft a success bust or something in between

However the regression of Hernandez Carter and Hill combined with Barkleyís injury have taken some of the initial gloss of the class and a factor in the poor team performance

Lauletta and McIntosh were mid to late round picks; one clearly a mistake and the other has been injured. Beal has also been consistently injured

Time will tell
ever look at our FA acquisitions ?  
mdc1 : 11/21/2019 11:33 am : link
and their effectiveness? Not good

apply that to coaches. Not good, exceptions Coughlin, Parcells, and Fassell lightly

then look at the whole body of work and the result. Not good

----> owners and decision maker issue.

- an organization tends to look and function as the ones that created it.
RE: RE: You guys do realize the opponents' players and coaches  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/21/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14685424 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 14685401 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


get paid too. One of the items on their to do list is to watch film, break down tendencies and devise countermeasures. Sometimes, it takes a few games for them to figure it out, but they will figure out.

In Barkley's case, it doesn't take a mastermind to figure out that stopping Barkley is Job #1 and forget the rookie qb and junky receivers. Has been working like a charm. Barkley had 2000 yards and 15 td's last season. This season 650 yards and 3 td's. What's wrong with Barkley? A rookie qb is what is wrong with Barkley.

Guys like Hill and Hernandez have been figured out and their weaknesses attacked. They either need to now shore up their weaknesses or they are not long for the League. That is the way of things.



Barkley is also hurt. I guess that's on coaching too.

Yes, by constantly sending SB on flat routes to get his ankle mangled where tacklers can bring the wood with the sideline assisting. I mean, doesn't Shurnur notice this ffs?
RE: It's a few things  
PerpetualNervousness : 11/21/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14685405 JonC said:
Quote:
It's part coaching, part what Homer pointed out about scheme to attack weakness, and part the talent on the whole is severely lacking.

The receiver corps was a really poor gamble on DG's part, I think he capitulated to Shurmur on trading OB, which is a sore spot. They did a poor job self-scouting the LB unit, FS, OL, and even their DL choices aren't performing great.



Jon - just out of curiosity - is it your sense it was Shurmur who pushed to get OBJ out this offseason? It's interesting if so, since the narrative has been for a while that DG was always interested in moving OBJ, and that it was Shurmur that prevented it from the get go.
Maybe the 2018 class wasn't great to begin with  
Go Terps : 11/21/2019 11:39 am : link
After all, it's not like they had any great impact on the field in 2018...the Giants were a very bad looking 5-11.
ahh, i see someone beat me to the question  
PerpetualNervousness : 11/21/2019 11:39 am : link
great minds...
...  
christian : 11/21/2019 11:41 am : link
There is no guarantee young players are going to be good or get better. I

On a better team Hill and Carter probably don't get on the field last year. Beal and McIntosh were virtual redshirts.

Barkley and Hernandez were quite good, the league has adjusted to them I assume to some extent, they look to have the physical talent to counter punch.

The others, I am not confident they have the talent to become NFL starters.
RE: Maybe the 2018 class wasn't great to begin with  
lax counsel : 11/21/2019 11:41 am : link
In comment 14685493 Go Terps said:
Quote:
After all, it's not like they had any great impact on the field in 2018...the Giants were a very bad looking 5-11.


Agreed. I think we heard how great it was, but didn't actually see any positive results. At some point, these "great classes" need to produce in the W column. Perhaps we need to stop putting W's in DG's win column until the results on the field change?
I was reading an article on Carter  
Dinger : 11/21/2019 11:45 am : link
in the Post (the link here is to NJ.com), a couple of days ago. It was in general an overview of how he flashed potential but really hasn't lived up to it. It discussed how he can play 3 instruments, has other interests outside of football and was in general a smart person(at least thats the general impression I walked away with). I began thinking, sometimes its not the GM or the coaches or even the players 'fault'. These guys are in their EARLY 20's. Maybe Some of them and I'd say a very small percent are finding that after being drafted they aren't as 'interested' in football as they were a few years ago. So though they have all the tools, smarts and support, they just aren't as into this as a career or life. understanable. I'd say maybe thats whats possibly going on with Carter. For the rest, you'd have to be on the team or closely associated with the team to know whats going on.
Conelly has a big advantage over our other LB's  
gtt350 : 11/21/2019 11:52 am : link
he knows how to tackle
Some good points already made; I'll just add that Barkley's 2018  
shyster : 11/21/2019 12:09 pm : link
season, which has been elevated to HOF status, actually had quite a number of games with very mediocre rushing stat lines.

Week 15 and Week 16 combined, SB had 74 rushing yards total on 35 carries.

The highlights and home runs are what people remember but, in retrospect, the lack of consistent rushing production looks like a warning sign.

Player-by-player  
AdamBrag : 11/21/2019 12:12 pm : link
Barkely - Worse this year. Injuries this year have hurt him, but teams having tape on him made them better prepared, as well.

Hernandez - Same as last year. I firmly believe this one is coaching.

Lorenzo Carter - Same as last year. A mix of coaching and this is just who he is as a player. His pass rush moves are not good. If we had better coverage, he'd be a guy getting a lot of sacks because he is a high hustle player.

BJ Hill - Same as last year. I think this is the player he is. He isn't going to be someone who is a pass rush specialist, but he's a solid DLineman.

Kyle Lauletta - Bust.

RJ McIntosh - Better, only because he's playing a little more.
Serious Question  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 11/21/2019 12:42 pm : link
So, what can one say in defense of Shurmur for staying and to lesser extent DG? Many agree on the regression.

What argument is to be made to Mara for another year?
RE: RE: It's a few things  
JonC : 11/21/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14685459 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14685405 JonC said:


Quote:


It's part coaching, part what Homer pointed out about scheme to attack weakness, and part the talent on the whole is severely lacking.

The receiver corps was a really poor gamble on DG's part, I think he capitulated to Shurmur on trading OB, which is a sore spot. They did a poor job self-scouting the LB unit, FS, OL, and even their DL choices aren't performing great.





That's interesting Jon - you think that DG capitulated on the trade and not the other way around? To me it seemed like once OBJ was traded Shurmur was screwed, and given the instability of his position in the org vs DG, he'd have much less incentive to move on OBJ than DG would.


I can't say with certainty but heard PS pushed to trade him. He was apparently a huge energy suck off the field, and also most believed he could've played in games he missed at the end of the season. That was the fuel on top of the fire lit by the interview. I think he also wanted out which greased his exit, but don't think he expected to be traded to Cleveland.

I'm surprised they traded him, it suggests to me there was even more going on off the field, which is often the case. As big a headache as he could have been, giving him the extension and then trading him doesn't add up to me as smart decision. I think the trade return was meh, and having him locked up on a new deal should've helped in trade. $.02
RE: Serious Question  
Go Terps : 11/21/2019 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14685572 Bavaro_the_Mafioso said:
Quote:
So, what can one say in defense of Shurmur for staying and to lesser extent DG? Many agree on the regression.

What argument is to be made to Mara for another year?


The only argument for keeping both is continuity, which in itself is a pretty bad argument.

Both Gettleman and Shurmur have unquestionably failed at their jobs, and I find it impossible to think that better alternatives aren't available this offseason.
continuity, familiarity, and trust  
JonC : 11/21/2019 12:55 pm : link
or Mara's going to engage EA again and he'll recommend Abrams? I'd like to understand EA's rigorous thinking on pointing to DG to begin with. And, this is without talking about the Shurmur hire, etc. Safe picks.

This is the dilemma.
JonC  
Go Terps : 11/21/2019 1:07 pm : link
Yup...continuity, familiarity, and trust. We've become familiar with losing, and I trust that will continue.

....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/21/2019 1:07 pm : link
I think the draft class was overhyped here because DG fans were looking for a win.

It's promising. It still is. But they need more time.
Its 95% coaching - I mean how can every player be going downhill  
PatersonPlank : 11/21/2019 1:14 pm : link
It doesn't make sense. The Coaches are forcing these players to conform to the singular style of play they want, rather than do what good coaches do and build a style around the talent they have.

Its like if you took LT and made him a fulltime down lineman, instead of realizing his special ability as a rusher. Or making Barkley repeatedly run up the centers butt even though the D is playing 8 or 9 in the box (or wait, thats real).

I feel like I'm watching Rudolph the Red Nose Raindeer. Shurmur has our team looking like the Pistol that squirts grape jelly, or the train with square wheels (or the boat that can't float, etc).
I'm not sure how promising the draft class is - Barkley's a problem  
Go Terps : 11/21/2019 1:18 pm : link
The Barkley situation in particular looks like a developing disaster. Play out the likely scenarios...if the offense sucks again next year we are likely faced with a decision between some bad options:

1. Don't sign Barkley and let him go into 2021 still on his rookie contract, which he probably won't like much - not a great option
2. Trade Barkley for 75 cents on the dollar (like we did with Beckham when we missed his optimal trade window by a couple years) - bad option
3. Make Barkley the richest RB in the league - worst option

We're soon going to see just why that pick didn't make sense. To justify the pick Barkley had to help elevate this team to a playoff contender right out of the gate. That didn't happen his first two years and looks unlikely next year.

So where do we go from there?
Terps  
JonC : 11/21/2019 1:20 pm : link
I agree with you on the big picture, just poorly written on my part.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 11/21/2019 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14685611 JonC said:
Quote:
I agree with you on the big picture, just poorly written on my part.


Not at all. I think you captured the key elements perfectly.
Incredibably Frustrating  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 11/21/2019 1:27 pm : link
to witness mistake after mistake; free agent misses, OL rebuild, sign and trade of OBJ, Barkley pounded N/S into the line over and over (never in space), lack of in-game adjustments, poor wr core, giving up picks, Lauletta,etc. then coupled that with a smug, know-it GM and an aww shucks, loser coach.

It was time to move on from TC, but cant help but think back to TC's resignation press conference when he walked past Mara and didnt shake his hand. Defining moment of the franchise to me since 2011. Mara cant beat his own D&ck!
It's the dang fan base!!!  
Jules : 11/21/2019 1:40 pm : link
If the Giants had a better fan base, they'd be able to pick better players & coaches.

AND if this was a really committed fan base they would have pocked better owners!!!

Next year let's get better fans who can make some noise and watch the team turn around!!!
RE: I'm not sure how promising the draft class is - Barkley's a problem  
BlueVinnie : 11/21/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14685609 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Barkley situation in particular looks like a developing disaster. Play out the likely scenarios...if the offense sucks again next year we are likely faced with a decision between some bad options:

1. Don't sign Barkley and let him go into 2021 still on his rookie contract, which he probably won't like much - not a great option
2. Trade Barkley for 75 cents on the dollar (like we did with Beckham when we missed his optimal trade window by a couple years) - bad option
3. Make Barkley the richest RB in the league - worst option

We're soon going to see just why that pick didn't make sense. To justify the pick Barkley had to help elevate this team to a playoff contender right out of the gate. That didn't happen his first two years and looks unlikely next year.

So where do we go from there?



You hit the nail on the head on all points. As long as Gettleman is here, Barkley's not going anywhere (at least while on his rookie contract). After all of his bluster about Saquon being a "gold jacket guy" and "touched by the hand of God", there's no way his huge ego will allow him to admit that the pick was a mistake.

I didn't like the Gettleman hire when it was made and the moment I read the Gettleman quote below (regarding his drafting of Saquon)was the moment I thought "we're *ucked!"...

Yet, Gettleman simply doesnít buy the argument about positional value.
ďI think a lot of that is nonsense,Ē Gettleman said. ďI think itís someone who had this idea and got into the analytics of it, and did all these running backs and went through their whatever.r Hey, Jonathan Stewart is in his 10th year and he hasnít lost anything. I donít believe in it [positional value].Ē

It was a 2-fer. He didn't get that shoudn't pick an RB #2 overall and he actually though J Stew hadn't lost anything.

RE: I was reading an article on Carter  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 11/21/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14685507 Dinger said:
Quote:
in the Post (the link here is to NJ.com), a couple of days ago. It was in general an overview of how he flashed potential but really hasn't lived up to it. It discussed how he can play 3 instruments, has other interests outside of football and was in general a smart person(at least thats the general impression I walked away with). I began thinking, sometimes its not the GM or the coaches or even the players 'fault'. These guys are in their EARLY 20's. Maybe Some of them and I'd say a very small percent are finding that after being drafted they aren't as 'interested' in football as they were a few years ago. So though they have all the tools, smarts and support, they just aren't as into this as a career or life. understanable. I'd say maybe thats whats possibly going on with Carter. For the rest, you'd have to be on the team or closely associated with the team to know whats going on.

Parcells would have motivated him or get him off the team. Imagine if milquetoast low emotional intelligence Shemur is trying to motivate you, sheesh?
Throw rookies out  
Biteymax22 : 11/21/2019 3:10 pm : link
No players at all are playing better their second year in our system.
RE: It's the dang fan base!!!  
giantstock : 11/21/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14685654 Jules said:
Quote:
If the Giants had a better fan base, they'd be able to pick better players & coaches.

AND if this was a really committed fan base they would have pocked better owners!!!

Next year let's get better fans who can make some noise and watch the team turn around!!!


This was a great funny post. Thanks. You made me laugh this afternoon.
Coaching  
Tim in VA : 11/21/2019 4:19 pm : link
Our schemes, our strategy, our preparedness, and our discipline are weak to nonexistent week after week
Same with this draft  
Carl in CT : 11/21/2019 4:29 pm : link
not as good as originally thought. Except Jones showing promise. The rest of the picks have been not improving. (Except Slayton where he was drafted).
We overrate our rookies every year  
AcesUp : 11/21/2019 10:03 pm : link
It's been happening on this board forever. The 2014 class looked incredible after the first year, none of those players made it to this season. Rookies get the benefit of the doubt, so we gloss over their warts and assume that they'll experience linear growth year over year, when many young players across the league either hit a slump or never actually progress at all.
Sorry, but how do you not see the irony in saying  
mikeinbloomfield : 11/22/2019 1:36 pm : link
"We thought DG did a good job last year, but here's article that says different. But DG did a really good job this year."
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