The Giants gave-up a high third round pick for Williams. That's a sunk cost. Should the Giants sign him to a long term contract?
Ignoring his Jets production, is this too small a sample? In three games, Williams has ZERO sacks, 7 tackles and 5 assists. Yes, he's gotten some pressures, but yesterday playing an anemic Bears offense, Williams had one tackle and no assists.
Williams appears to be exactly what the Jets thought he was when they found a stupid GM to give them a high 3d round pick...
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I'm seeing Trey Flowers numbers as a baseline - $18M/year.
I can't imagine Team LW going below that...
That would be awful. With a roster with so many holes, doling out $18M/yr for a JAG is a terrible use of cap.
Hey, I'm with you. But as we have heard, the analytics gurus really like LW. And I guarantee Team LW knows this and are positioning the starting point as DE money. Or a hybrid.
Hell, Grady Jarrett is making $17M as a DT! You don't think that Team LW thinks LW is > the Jarrett?!? Of course they do...
This whole defense sucks for the most part.
This whole defense sucks for the most part.
That's only if you don't consider his play as part of the Jets defense. He's not exactly a rookie, and he's not looking to be compensated like one.
The only logical defense I've heard regarding the trade is from those who believe the Giants should sign him at practically any cost; by trading for LW's rights, they basically have him locked down to at least a franchise or transition tag offer if they can't find a mutually agreeable extension.
That makes sense, although I can't understand why someone would be OK with giving him that much money given his performance with the Jets to date. It's as if LW is a known entity who's going to get top dollar, and the Giants wanted to be sure they were the ones to give it to him.
He has had the most pressures on the team since he's been here. as a DT. That's pretty damn impressive.
The real questions have been brought up - what will his cost be. If it is a fair deal, it was a good trade. If we can't resign him or resign him at a huge salary, it will be a poor trade.
Couple him with Lawrence and an EDGE rusher, and you have the makings of a DL that can be dominant.
Is he really just a "DT"?
He plays a 3-4 DE, and I believe that most of the time he is on the side away from the ER... Doesn't that make him the "Edge" guy from the "other" side of the defensive formation?
Shouldn't we expect a bit more pass rush than what is being seen from that spot?
It's kind of funny - so many similarities, and yet the people who continue to insist that the team's misfortunes are all still on Reese don't see a problem with many of the moves.
To be fair to Reese, I don't think even he would have traded 2 picks in a non-competitive season for the rights to overpay a FA who had been widely considered a draft bust.
The most common complaint about Reese, that he didn't hit on later picks, has been replaced by 'well, what would you have done with that 3rd round pick anyway'. A 3rd and 4th sent for Williams. A 4th and 6th sent for Ogletree. A 4th discarded with a quick cut on Lauletta.
But going down the complete list - from overpaying FAs who proved to be useless to neglecting the line of scrimmage - if you looked at the team's construction and moves from 2012-2019 and nobody told you, there'd be nothing to suggest a change in leadership in that timeframe.
That makes sense, although I can't understand why someone would be OK with giving him that much money given his performance with the Jets to date. It's as if LW is a known entity who's going to get top dollar, and the Giants wanted to be sure they were the ones to give it to him.
Williams, in three seasons, at USC had 8,5 and 7 sacks. And now in five NFL seasons, he has 17 sacks.
To me, if LW isn't getting sacks then he's just another guy in our rotation doing the same thing. He's basically superfluous. And we have put ourselves in a real bind trading for him.
If possible, I'd sign him and immediately look for a trade partner.
I am just stunned at this trade considering the other needs we have.
Yes - and that is a big problem, not a reason to trade away your 3rd rounders for nothing.
We may get the long awaited linebackers draft. We may get the long missing legendary INTs "+" safety draft. Those will be in rookie contracts. So in that way it balances a bit.
You probably want the DTs in place to do that.
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and sacks for a DT is just foolish - but not surprising.
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Williams doesn't play DT for us, he plays DE. We run a 3-4, which actually does not use a DT but a single NT instead, which is typically played by either Tomlinson or Lawrence.
So maybe you shouldn't be calling other posters foolish if you don't even know what position Williams plays.
At time yesterday, Williams lined up head over the center or in the C-G gaps. I think if you watch enoughg you'll see both Williams and Lawrence (at least those two) flip flopping inside and out. Tomlinson is more often a nose guard.
The 2012 draft isn't so long ago and not a single player is even still in the NFL. Prince is the only player still in the NFL from the 2011 draft.
Anyone wanting to trace back the failures of the past 5-6 years, the awful drafts from 2011-2017 are a pretty obvious place to start. It's, you know, the main reason the guy got fired in the first place.
I hope that doesn't bias the team's focus toward him and away from other available players.
If there is for instance an opportunity to land a great center, I'd hope Gettleman contemplates investing there over DL.
There are exist opportunities out there with a better cost/benefit.
Of the many things to worry about with this org, DG bringing in more "hog mollies" isn't one of them. And he's proven to be fairly solid evaluating them (Lawrence and Hernandez have both been good picks).
I'm far more worried about him getting coaching decisions right than draft picks.
Of the many things to worry about with this org, DG bringing in more "hog mollies" isn't one of them. And he's proven to be fairly solid evaluating them (Lawrence and Hernandez have both been good picks).
I'm far more worried about him getting coaching decisions right than draft picks.
If this is what Williams is, hes not value when they have to pay him a fortune or be the team that let a player they traded a 3rd round pick for walk away.
Also re: Williams if he walks they don't get nothing, they could easily get a comp pick within 30-40 spots of their original pick. Certainly not an ideal outcome but I don't think it will come to that. I've said time and time again the best outcome would be franchising him and seeing what he looks like for a full year before making a decision. And if we don't like what we see let him walk for the comp pick.
Also re: Williams if he walks they don't get nothing, they could easily get a comp pick within 30-40 spots of their original pick. Certainly not an ideal outcome but I don't think it will come to that. I've said time and time again the best outcome would be franchising him and seeing what he looks like for a full year before making a decision. And if we don't like what we see let him walk for the comp pick.
Unless you think DG is going to basically sit out FA or only sign low-money guys and players who are released and therefore ineligible for the comp pick calculations, it's highly unlikely they'll get anything for LW if he walks.
Also re: Williams if he walks they don't get nothing, they could easily get a comp pick within 30-40 spots of their original pick. Certainly not an ideal outcome but I don't think it will come to that. I've said time and time again the best outcome would be franchising him and seeing what he looks like for a full year before making a decision. And if we don't like what we see let him walk for the comp pick.
The Giants almost certainly will sign UFAs to offset the comp formula, and not get anything for Williams.
If he draws the DE tag at 18M, and the Giants risk souring the relationship, that's a pretty bad best outcome in my view.
It's obvious DG isn't planning to sit out FA this year with all the cap room they've accumulated so the comp pick possibility this year is never going to happen but IMO the best case scenario with LW is the tag vs. a long term deal before we know what we are getting. And who knows what the decision will be next year. The comp pick could come back into play then if they decide to let him walk. Or maybe they tag him again. The Cowboys tagged Lawrence twice if i'm not mistaken.
Of the many things to worry about with this org, DG bringing in more "hog mollies" isn't one of them. And he's proven to be fairly solid evaluating them (Lawrence and Hernandez have both been good picks).
I'm far more worried about him getting coaching decisions right than draft picks.
Has Hernandez proven to be a good pick? Right now, he's got a real Weston Richburg feel to him - solid rookie campaign, inconsistent second year.
Lawrence has been good - which you'd expect from a 17th overall.
The rest of his 'hog mollies' - the OL rebuild was a bust. The DL is a sieve. I'd say he has pretty clearly failed at his promise to control the LOS, despite allocating a fair number of resources to doing so.
It's obvious DG isn't planning to sit out FA this year with all the cap room they've accumulated so the comp pick possibility this year is never going to happen but IMO the best case scenario with LW is the tag vs. a long term deal before we know what we are getting. And who knows what the decision will be next year. The comp pick could come back into play then if they decide to let him walk. Or maybe they tag him again. The Cowboys tagged Lawrence twice if i'm not mistaken.
That's getting a little much for a player like Williams.
If the Giants give him north of 35M+ guaranteed over 2 years and don't retain his rights, that's bad deal.
I suspect Williams and his agent are excited to see what the UFA looks like with over 1.5B in cap space available in the NFL just this offseason. Not to mention this is his first opportunity to pick where he plays.
And honestly if you're Williams, and you're sitting through 8 weeks of this first-hand and the coach is fired, this isn't a resort destination.
re: Lawrence, yes he was a high pick and should be performing well, but he seems to outperforming many of the players picked ahead of time.
This team certainly is not yet good enough in the trenches, which is why I don't mind continuing to invest in players like Williams - they obviously need to invest wisely though. I'd feel a lot more comfortable giving Williams a 2nd contract after a full season. And if he doesn't warrant it i'd move on and take the comp pick.
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It's obvious DG isn't planning to sit out FA this year with all the cap room they've accumulated so the comp pick possibility this year is never going to happen but IMO the best case scenario with LW is the tag vs. a long term deal before we know what we are getting. And who knows what the decision will be next year. The comp pick could come back into play then if they decide to let him walk. Or maybe they tag him again. The Cowboys tagged Lawrence twice if i'm not mistaken.
the tag tends to be thrown around as a best case, but there are downsides to it too. Tagging Leonard Williams means paying him like a top 5 DE. Franchise tag is the average of the top 5 salaries at the position. The tag is a device to hold on to star players. THe player gets a salary arguably close to his market value, and the team gets more time to negotiate, or plan for his departure.
Using the tag in this case is overpaying a player simply because you boxed yourself in to overpaying, or losing out on him completely. That's a lot of money in one year that could be spent elsewhere, on a team that needs basically everything. Nothing in Williams' career has indicated he's a top 5 player at his position, and you and I can both think of better things the Giants could do with the $14 million dollars (2018 DE franchise tag rate).
And we can say it's a good idea to do that until we figure out what Leonard Williams is, but this is year four for him. Next year will be year five. Maybe it's just me, but I tend not to think of 5th year veterans as 'untapped potential'.
LW is far from a proven super star but considering we have the cap room and it's unlikely there are very many better options out there, he seems like the ideal candidate to exercise what is effectively an option year (tag). I'd much rather overspend this year when we have the room than give him a big contract on a future season's credit card.
When it comes to the tag I just think everyone is ignoring the reality that any good young FA is going to get paid close to the tag. Both Zadarius Smith and Preston Smith did last year, and they are certainly more B level players than A level players (not unlike LW or Vernon when we paid him). That's what FA does - it overpays B level players because A level players don't get there. If we are going to overpay a b level player I'd rather overpay on a 1 year deal than a multi-year deal.
Btw there's also the transition tag but I'm not as familiar with how that works, I know it's a slightly lower AAV but also not as restrictive and lesser utilized.
LW is far from a proven super star but considering we have the cap room and it's unlikely there are very many better options out there, he seems like the ideal candidate to exercise what is effectively an option year (tag). I'd much rather overspend this year when we have the room than give him a big contract on a future season's credit card.
I don't want the Giants signing him to a huge deal, because I don't think he's that type of player.
All of contemplation on tagging etc. is just an indication this was a suspect acquisition.
I'd rather the Giants hadn't acquired him, and make a competitive offer in UFA. This isn't a guy you can't live without.
The good news- I don't think he can command much money. He isn't an impact player at all. Probably gets a deal similar to Stephone Tuitt (12 mil APY). He and his agent cannot possibly justify getting anything near Grady Jarrett/Fletcher Cox.
He is what he is- a solid player who flashes at times but he's not exactly a guy offenses have to worry about.
The good news- I don't think he can command much money. He isn't an impact player at all. Probably gets a deal similar to Stephone Tuitt (12 mil APY). He and his agent cannot possibly justify getting anything near Grady Jarrett/Fletcher Cox.
He is what he is- a solid player who flashes at times but he's not exactly a guy offenses have to worry about.
I'd agree with this assessment and value.
I don't want the Giants signing him to a huge deal, because I don't think he's that type of player.
All of contemplation on tagging etc. is just an indication this was a suspect acquisition.
I'd rather the Giants hadn't acquired him, and make a competitive offer in UFA. This isn't a guy you can't live without.
Forget the trade, binary question - which contract would you have preferred signing LW to in March as a FA:
a) "a competitive UFA offer" akin to those signed by similar profile defensive players in UFA last year (Smith, Smith, Barr in particular) ~4 years/ 60m
b) 1 year deal at tag value (DE was 17.1m last year, DT tag was 15.1m)
to me this just seems like such simple decision since we have a lot of cap room and there aren't a plethora of better FA out there who will likely come here unless we wildly overpay. If he's good, extend him in-season or next offseason. If he's not good let him walk for a comp pick.
Many are acting like any of the FA options out there are obviously evaluations like Khalil Mack or Von Miller - they aren't. GB rolled the dice on both Smiths having never put up more than 8 sacks before and they both have 10 this year already. We all know those types of outcomes are generally the exception and not the rule. Or they could just be having their Vernon year 1.
The good news- I don't think he can command much money. He isn't an impact player at all. Probably gets a deal similar to Stephone Tuitt (12 mil APY). He and his agent cannot possibly justify getting anything near Grady Jarrett/Fletcher Cox.
Really? Based on what?
Sorry, but Team Williams isn't taking $12/yr. The franchise tag is going to be $15+M. The could transition him for less, but that would totally piss off Williams. And I think that's the last thing DG wants to do...
If the goal is to secure him long term, we're looking at $18M/4 years. Easily.
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and basically gave a top 66-67 pick away to the Jets, as well as a 5th next year.
The good news- I don't think he can command much money. He isn't an impact player at all. Probably gets a deal similar to Stephone Tuitt (12 mil APY). He and his agent cannot possibly justify getting anything near Grady Jarrett/Fletcher Cox.
He is what he is- a solid player who flashes at times but he's not exactly a guy offenses have to worry about.
I'd agree with this assessment and value.
Btw I also agree with this assessment and value. I'd pay the few mil more for 1 year vs. longer term future risk if he wanted more than I felt was very reasonable (4 years 48m?).
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The good news- I don't think he can command much money. He isn't an impact player at all. Probably gets a deal similar to Stephone Tuitt (12 mil APY). He and his agent cannot possibly justify getting anything near Grady Jarrett/Fletcher Cox.
Really? Based on what?
Sorry, but Team Williams isn't taking $12/yr. The franchise tag is going to be $15+M. The could transition him for less, but that would totally piss off Williams. And I think that's the last thing DG wants to do...
If the goal is to secure him long term, we're looking at $18M/4 years. Easily.
If that's the case then tagging him would be a no brainer.
Vernon and Snacks were at least productive.
Personally, I would have waited till FA and determine if he’s worth the dollars based on what other FA assets are out there. I still think that’s the right move.
It sucks that we are talking about almost having to use the franchise tag now to justify this stupid trade. Fucking DG.
I could be wrong and Williams isn't looking to optimize his financial opportunity, so he'll settle for something less.
But in this day and age, that would be a huge anomaly ala Tom Brady...
Specifically the 3 guys Reese signed in 2017 made pro bowls and all pro here and were main reasons for an 11 win season. They were expensive and none were ideal leaders, but they certainly contributed a lot more than most of Reese's completely failed draft classes from 2011 - 2017. I'd sign Snacks 100x out of 100 if the alternative was playing Jay Bromley, I'd sign Vernon 100x out of 100 if the alternative was playing Odigizua or Moore, and I'd sign Jack Rabbit 100x out of 100 instead of playing Jayron Hosley.
The revisionist history about why Jerry Reese got fired (his awful drafting) is pretty hilarious given the criticism of DG's drafts.
I could be wrong and Williams isn't looking to optimize his financial opportunity, so he'll settle for something less.
But in this day and age, that would be a huge anomaly ala Tom Brady...
I don't believe the player gets to choose which tag he wants. Williams pretty clearly plays more of a DT role and has been labeled as such going back to his pre-draft process. I'm not sure what the rules are but what he wants is irrelevant and i'm sure he has a great case to get around the DT tag price by virtue of the fact that he frequently lines up over center and doesn't produce sacks...
the 2m doesn't make a huge deal to me though so I'd have no issue tagging him either way considering we project to have like $80m avail.
Personally, I would have waited till FA and determine if he’s worth the dollars based on what other FA assets are out there. I still think that’s the right move.
It sucks that we are talking about almost having to use the franchise tag now to justify this stupid trade. Fucking DG.
Negligence would be better. This is malfeasance.
I don't believe the player gets to choose which tag he wants. Williams pretty clearly plays more of a DT role and has been labeled as such going back to his pre-draft process. I'm not sure what the rules are but what he wants is irrelevant and i'm sure he has a great case to get around the DT tag price by virtue of the fact that he frequently lines up over center and doesn't produce sacks...
the 2m doesn't make a huge deal to me though so I'd have no issue tagging him either way considering we project to have like $80m avail.
I wasn't suggesting the player chooses. But what if LW is willing to take the tag, but at the DE slot $? Maybe he gets pissed and decides to sit out if he doesn't get that money as a compromise for the tag. I don't know. But I have a feeling this isn't going to be a nice, clean situation going into 2020...
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Everyone hates Reese, but this is basically Reese all over again.
Vernon and Snacks were at least productive.
How is being here 3 games as a DT and leading the team in pressures not being productive?? Especially since you are basing Vernon's productivity on a similar metric. At least be fucking consistent
I see very little argument for LW to get the DE tag over the DT tag. At the combine when he entered the league he was classified as a DT and as a Giant he has played inside, including over the nose, far more than rushing on the edge - and i'd imagine there's a simple tracking of snap counts at whichever alignments that makes this an easy issue for the team/player to resolve. The Giants official depth chart has him as the 2nd NT behind Tomlinson.
Also in 2017 Gettleman tagged Kawann Short before ultimately extending him, so as much as everyone likes to talk about Norman/Collins - he has shown that he's willing to tag a DT.
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In comment 14691775 Go Terps said:
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Everyone hates Reese, but this is basically Reese all over again.
Vernon and Snacks were at least productive.
How is being here 3 games as a DT and leading the team in pressures not being productive?? Especially since you are basing Vernon's productivity on a similar metric. At least be fucking consistent
That's a fair point. This may be a good move. But, it better be a good move, considering how many resources he put towards it. Draft picks and money and a potential franchise tag. A lot rides on this move.
Personally, I would have waited till FA and determine if he’s worth the dollars based on what other FA assets are out there. I still think that’s the right move.
It sucks that we are talking about almost having to use the franchise tag now to justify this stupid trade. Fucking DG.
At the time of the trade it was bandied about that an agreement must have already been mad unofficially... that Williams had already said he'd re-sign, and that the Giants knew the cost.
The alternative to that couldn't be believed by those who still are reluctant to criticize Gettleman, and I'm just not sure why.