The Giants gave-up a high third round pick for Williams. That's a sunk cost. Should the Giants sign him to a long term contract?
Ignoring his Jets production, is this too small a sample? In three games, Williams has ZERO sacks, 7 tackles and 5 assists. Yes, he's gotten some pressures, but yesterday playing an anemic Bears offense, Williams had one tackle and no assists.
Williams appears to be exactly what the Jets thought he was when they found a stupid GM to give them a high 3d round pick...
The trade was a big mistake. One of those side effects of bad management.
The trade was a big mistake. One of those side effects of bad management.
This is an obvious fallacy. The picks are a sunk cost anyway. In fact the Giants lose an even higher pick if they do sign Williams.
Signing the guy to a big deal only compounds the initial error of trading for him.
That being said, Gettleman is definitly the type to fall for thisvery fallacy, so... he's probably gonna give him a 4-year 50 million deal, just to try and justify trading for him.
They are winning and their D looks sharper.
Coincidence?
Unfortunately, as mentioned above, we are going to compound this moronic trade by signing LW to at least $17M yr.
My only thought about the potential re-signing is the fact that he is very young and having depth along the D Line is important.
I think he is re-signed but I hope it isn't for an insane amount.
he did get alot of double teams yesterday but doesn't that mean someone else is singled up? and shoudl produce? doesn't happen
is he worth the $? simple question. no. Tomlinson had 3 tackles yesterday so you could say he had better production but that doens't tell the whole story
Walk away dave. at least we can get back that horrible move in 2021 with a 3rd and hopefully we see a 3rd round comp pick for collins in 2020 so we don't miss the round!
He is worth 10-12 mil a year and 30 mil guaranteed? I think not. There is n9 way we get him on the cheap. Let him walk.
The best case scenario is they agree to a market rate deal, but Williams has all the leverage.
The trade was a big mistake. One of those side effects of bad management.
This is problematic thinking. If you made a bad investment in your financial portfolio, you don't compound the error by holding onto it. You cut your losses.
Unless Leonard Williams starts making plays in the last five games, and the Giants re-sign him to a fair contract, then this trade was a disaster.
The best case scenario is they agree to a market rate deal, but Williams has all the leverage.
To me it was a fireable offense. How does Mara approve that move?
Do the double teams stay with Williams?
Does Williams production shoot up when we have a real pass rush threat?
Just when you thought trading picks for Ogletree's contract would be the dumbest thing a current NFL GM could do Gettleman ups the ante.
He trades a top 70 pick for a good but non impact player who will be a free agent after 8 more games and then either let's him walk for nothing to show for it or signs hm for 15 million a year.
That said, I thought the push up the middle would improve, and I haven't seen much of that, and against the Cowboys, they just shredded our run D.
It's tough because he can be a solid player, but what are they going to pay for him? There are people here who can't wait to get rid of Janoris Jenkins, but for the life of me, I can't justify cutting him to re-sign someone like Williams.
Williams does get doubled a lot, and would obviously be more effective if we had edge pass rushers. He's a power, not quick twitch player. We need OLBs who can bend the edge. Forcing OTs to protect the edge would mean fewer double teams and more room in the A and B gaps of an OL for a player like Williams to exploit.
I was OK with the trade, but we probably should have just waited until FA to try and sign him. DG likely thought it would be cheaper to try and resign him now.
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Gave up two valuable picks for him. Can’t burn picks like that on a half season rental for a dogshit team.
The trade was a big mistake. One of those side effects of bad management.
This is an obvious fallacy. The picks are a sunk cost anyway. In fact the Giants lose an even higher pick if they do sign Williams.
Signing the guy to a big deal only compounds the initial error of trading for him.
That being said, Gettleman is definitly the type to fall for thisvery fallacy, so... he's probably gonna give him a 4-year 50 million deal, just to try and justify trading for him.
I could live with 4/50 for him, despite the stat sheet and what many seem to think, he's a very good football player.
Granted I wouldve rather just given him that contract on open market. But maybe that wouldnt get it done there and we can get somewhat of a discount for negotiating early. Which I agree our 3rd round pick was an absurd price to pay for that privilege, frankly i dont think a non playoff team should be giving that up for anybody on an expiring contract but what's done is done.
I'm glad to have the player, dont love the price tag but what can ya do?
With that being said, I'd be open to resigning him, but his play isn't warranting a big $ contract. Something in the 5-7 million a year range is fair for a guy like him, yes he was a very high pick, but he hasn't played like a $10 million a year player.
IMO, this is malpractice.
The only way you don't re-sign is if LW goes astronomical in demands or he shits the bed. So far he hasn't STB.
complain about the quality of player, but it would be horrible management to not know how much it would take to re-sign him, or to not be willing to pay that price before the trade
- The threat/leverage of franchising him is a bad play, 18M for if a player doesn't want to be here is a nightmare
- 8 weeks of this disaster isn't going to convincing if he's on the fence about commiting
The Giants bought player control it would be unwise to use.
The only way this works is if Williams takes a very fair deal.
If this is a bidding war, the Giants should have just bid, not also given.
There is a high risk high reward for trading for LW.
However, I agree that I have seen a high motor guy who is getting double teamed and still getting into offensive backfields.
I would sign him.
Then I would draft Chase Young and watch this DL explode in 2020!!!!
It could be an epic DL to match Tuck, Strahan, etal.
Exactly, not so much a game of Stats here (as our defense sucks) but a game of game tape / eye. What happens when we get better players on the D line and they can no longer double him so easily? We gave up a high 3rd and once we sign him the 5th will be a 4th. Hopefully it works out for us, but he passes the eye test. Once we have a better line, I expect everyone's play to rise.
Two solo tackles in 3 games. Zero sacks in 10 games on the year. And we're going to pay this guy $17M+/year.
You sign him and keep him, along with Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Hill. At least 3 of these 4 and Williams is #1 among them I imagine.
Add elite pass rusher and above average ILBs and stir.
Doesn't anyone notice how much tougher the Giants are defending short yardage rushing situations?
Classic stats for DTs are so fucking misleading.
And the improvement at defending short yardage running plays is with GARBAGE at ILB. Despite that talent hole...
He has had the most pressures on the team since he's been here. as a DT. That's pretty damn impressive.
The real questions have been brought up - what will his cost be. If it is a fair deal, it was a good trade. If we can't resign him or resign him at a huge salary, it will be a poor trade.
Couple him with Lawrence and an EDGE rusher, and you have the makings of a DL that can be dominant.
Every year it gets used, and in this case where we have only had the player for half of a season it makes plenty of sense for both sides to play out a 1 year deal.
You sign him and keep him, along with Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Hill. At least 3 of these 4 and Williams is #1 among them I imagine.
Add elite pass rusher and above average ILBs and stir.
Doesn't anyone notice how much tougher the Giants are defending short yardage rushing situations?
Classic stats for DTs are so fucking misleading.
And the improvement at defending short yardage running plays is with GARBAGE at ILB. Despite that talent hole...
exactly right , you nailed it!
Do the double teams stay with Williams?
Does Williams production shoot up when we have a real pass rush threat?
there is a pretty good sample size out there of what williams can do or can't do. he's an avg player period. horrendous trade that makes zero sense.
Today if you get Young with the present players where does Williams and Tomlinson, Hill and McIntosh fit in your grand plans. Lawrence looks like a keeper but is he not playing out of position at DE in a 3-4 defense. This team is just confusing from top to bottom and Williams just adds another chapter to the confusion.
I know this, no matter whether or not he signs, the trade was completely unnecessary and remains inexplicable for a guy no one in the world thought the Jets were going to tag or resign.
You sign him and keep him, along with Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Hill. At least 3 of these 4 and Williams is #1 among them I imagine.
Add elite pass rusher and above average ILBs and stir.
Doesn't anyone notice how much tougher the Giants are defending short yardage rushing situations?
Classic stats for DTs are so fucking misleading.
And the improvement at defending short yardage running plays is with GARBAGE at ILB. Despite that talent hole...
Except he's not as good as Joseph or even close to it.
I think they have to sign him if its a reasonable number. But it still doesn't make it a good trade. Bad teams should be trading a 3rd and 4th round pick for an above average DT who's going to be a free agent.
Why not just sign him in the offseason? Makes zero sense.
+1.
The suggestion by the OP that the 3rd round pick is a sunk cost implies that the Giants made the trade without having some sort of even wink/nod suggestion from LW (or his agent) that he intended to re-sign.
It's entirely possible that he doesn't stay, or that the Giants decide that it wasn't the fit they thought it would be and move on without extending/re-signing LW, but I don't think that means we should just shrug our shoulders and chalk up the 3rd round pick to a sunk cost - it will have been yet another miscalculation by our intrepid general manager.
Giants 0-3 plus Williams
But I know that whole W-L thing is so 80's
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Gave up two valuable picks for him. Can’t burn picks like that on a half season rental for a dogshit team.
The trade was a big mistake. One of those side effects of bad management.
This is an obvious fallacy. The picks are a sunk cost anyway. In fact the Giants lose an even higher pick if they do sign Williams.
Signing the guy to a big deal only compounds the initial error of trading for him.
That being said, Gettleman is definitly the type to fall for thisvery fallacy, so... he's probably gonna give him a 4-year 50 million deal, just to try and justify trading for him.
If Gettleman somehow gets LW for 4/$50M, that would qualify as a massive win for DG. The price tag for LW is probably closer to 20-30% higher than that, though. I'm guessing more like 5/$75-80M.
he did get alot of double teams yesterday but doesn't that mean someone else is singled up? and shoudl produce? doesn't happen
is he worth the $? simple question. no. Tomlinson had 3 tackles yesterday so you could say he had better production but that doens't tell the whole story
Walk away dave. at least we can get back that horrible move in 2021 with a 3rd and hopefully we see a 3rd round comp pick for collins in 2020 so we don't miss the round!
Unless DG sits out FA this year (or restricts himself only to players who get released instead of qualifying comp-eligible FAs), we're not getting a comp pick in 2021 whether we let LW walk or re-sign him.
That was always a bit of fiction that DG acolytes grasped onto.
You sign him and keep him, along with Tomlinson, Lawrence, and Hill. At least 3 of these 4 and Williams is #1 among them I imagine.
Add elite pass rusher and above average ILBs and stir.
Doesn't anyone notice how much tougher the Giants are defending short yardage rushing situations?
Classic stats for DTs are so fucking misleading.
And the improvement at defending short yardage running plays is with GARBAGE at ILB. Despite that talent hole...
There is really nothing similar about LJ and LW except for the first initial of their first name, but carry on...
At 1:10, Trubisky pump-fakes. Both Williams and Golden fall for it, Williams just stops. Doesn't even put his arms up.
Golden turns around like he is going to pursue where the ball goes. BTW Dexter Lawrence never stopped, and put his hands up on the outside chance he could block the pass.
Result? Williams gets knocked on his ass, Golden runs himself out of the play, and Trubisky takes off for an 11-yard first down run on 3rd and 10 with the Bears backed up near their own end zone. Just awful.
Another thing I wanted to point out, was at 3:28, the Bears' O-line blocking is a thing of absolute beauty. Cody Whitehair, James Daniels, Charles Leno, Rashaad Coward and Bobby Massie, and a great job giving help by David Montgomery to stop Oshane Ximines who beat TE Ben Braunecker on the right side of the edge.
But think about that...Giants rushed four, Massie and Coward doubles Big Dex, Whitehair and Daniels double Tomlinson, and the LT Leno can take who I think was Lo Carter one on one, and they are content to block Ximines with a TE with RB help. Watch that play at 9:44 of the video, seriously.
Now imagine instead of Ximines or Carter on the field it's Chase Young.
Trubisky, btw, ended up throwing a beautiful ball to Robinson for a huge gain.
On the strip sack by Mack a few seconds later into the video, I counted one-one thousand, two-one thousand, three-one thousand, then the sack came. That ball has to be gone or Jones has to step up in the pocket. He had a lane in front of him to the right.
I'm not saying LW should be resigned or not. But if he is, I need to see a motor that doesn't quit.
I'd be shocked if they didn't sign him.
If it isn't stupid money, I'd be ok with the signing.
Add in a Chase Young and the DL could be really good next year. They aren't bad now.
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Williams doesn't play DT for us, he plays DE. We run a 3-4, which actually does not use a DT but a single NT instead, which is typically played by either Tomlinson or Lawrence.
So maybe you shouldn't be calling other posters foolish if you don't even know what position Williams plays.
Williams isn't a bad player. He fits into the category of 'not as good as his draft status, not as bad as people think'.
He's definitely not worth a franchise tag. He's also not worth $15M a season. He might be worth $8-10, on an incentive laden contract. It's not just a matter of his production, but the need to bolster the team's pass rush, which will take a lot of money to accomplish.
There's a possibility they get a decent comp pick if he signs elsewhere, so the focus should be more on the ROI for signing him than the trade.