The Giants gave-up a high third round pick for Williams. That's a sunk cost. Should the Giants sign him to a long term contract?
Ignoring his Jets production, is this too small a sample? In three games, Williams has ZERO sacks, 7 tackles and 5 assists. Yes, he's gotten some pressures, but yesterday playing an anemic Bears offense, Williams had one tackle and no assists.
Williams appears to be exactly what the Jets thought he was when they found a stupid GM to give them a high 3d round pick...
More than 3/4ths of Williams snaps are considered at DT. Bettcher rarely uses a pure 3-4, and with williams in there, he's often lined up inside.
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So maybe you shouldn't be calling other posters foolish if you don't even know what position Williams plays.
More than 3/4ths of Williams snaps are considered at DT. Bettcher rarely uses a pure 3-4, and with williams in there, he's often lined up inside.
Do you have some actual support for this? Or for the notion that Bettcher "rarely" uses a pure 3-4, which seems contrary to what I've seen this year.
Here is the thing. You don't pay guys a ton of money to simply eat up double teams and not get production. If you want a big fat SOB to clog up the run, you draft that guy in the 3rd round.
You have to use your resources on premium positions. Those positions are pass rusher, CB, and OL. Williams has shown little in the pass rush department since coming here.
The best case scenario is they agree to a market rate deal, but Williams has all the leverage.
Dumb people do dumb shit. This is a good post.
They are supposed to be talking about an extension starting this week so we'll see.
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So maybe you shouldn't be calling other posters foolish if you don't even know what position Williams plays.
More than 3/4ths of Williams snaps are considered at DT. Bettcher rarely uses a pure 3-4, and with williams in there, he's often lined up inside.
Do you have some actual support for this? Or for the notion that Bettcher "rarely" uses a pure 3-4, which seems contrary to what I've seen this year.
Some actual support??
Even if Bettcher runs a base 3-4 the majority of the time, the DL guys aren't DE's. Look at the Giants depth chart. They specifically reference the interior guys as DL. The DE's are listed as SAM and WLB. Williams is playing on the interior. His main goal is to occupy space and stop the run and get a push inside to collapse the pocket.
You really need that detailed and with support?
Either way I think if you're gonna pay a DT/DE $17million a year I'd like to see some actual production from him.
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In comment 14691021 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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So maybe you shouldn't be calling other posters foolish if you don't even know what position Williams plays.
More than 3/4ths of Williams snaps are considered at DT. Bettcher rarely uses a pure 3-4, and with williams in there, he's often lined up inside.
Do you have some actual support for this? Or for the notion that Bettcher "rarely" uses a pure 3-4, which seems contrary to what I've seen this year.
Some actual support??
Even if Bettcher runs a base 3-4 the majority of the time, the DL guys aren't DE's. Look at the Giants depth chart. They specifically reference the interior guys as DL. The DE's are listed as SAM and WLB. Williams is playing on the interior. His main goal is to occupy space and stop the run and get a push inside to collapse the pocket.
You really need that detailed and with support?
How many of those guys do we need? We can't just have space eaters.. we have DT, DL, Hill and then we spent our top 70 pick and another pick so that we can sign a 4th guy that fits that position..
LW is playing DE for us and if he is going to be franchised, it'll be as a DE.. so it's perfectly alright to expect DE stats from him..
2019-Oshane Ximines
2018-Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill
2017-Davis Webb
2016-Darian Thompson
2015-Owamagbe Odighizuwa
2014-Damontre Moore
Not exactly a Murderer's Row...
Just part of the conversation to consider. Of course, another GM might have done better.
If that's the case then that begs the question, why did we get him when we already had 3 of those.. all 3 of our previous DT were high end investment.. regardless of how you want to spin this.. the trade looks worse and worse..
To that point why I think that more talent at the linebacker position could be a focus this offseason.
If Gettleman somehow gets LW for 4/$50M, that would qualify as a massive win for DG. The price tag for LW is probably closer to 20-30% higher than that, though. I'm guessing more like 5/$75-80M.
I'm seeing Trey Flowers numbers as a baseline - $18M/year.
I can't imagine Team LW going below that...
Like I said, he shows flashes of talent, but displays inconsistent effort. Sign him if the number is right, but trading picks for him in his walk year is a misuse of assets, when you could sign him as a FA, and now our GM almost has to resign him so as not to look like he wasted assets for nothing.
I'm seeing Trey Flowers numbers as a baseline - $18M/year.
I can't imagine Team LW going below that...
That would be awful. With a roster with so many holes, doling out $18M/yr for a JAG is a terrible use of cap.
Just for argument's sake, if the Giants were to franchise tag LW, which position do you think he gets tagged at?
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I'm seeing Trey Flowers numbers as a baseline - $18M/year.
I can't imagine Team LW going below that...
That would be awful. With a roster with so many holes, doling out $18M/yr for a JAG is a terrible use of cap.
Flowers had a bunch of sacks last year. Williams is not getting that money.
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not playing DE for us. Golden, Ximines and Carter are in this defensive system.
Just for argument's sake, if the Giants were to franchise tag LW, which position do you think he gets tagged at?
The Giants would aim to tag him at DT. Williams and his agent will want to be tagged at DE. Both sides will have cases to support either position. Giants can point to snap counts.
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I'm seeing Trey Flowers numbers as a baseline - $18M/year.
I can't imagine Team LW going below that...
That would be awful. With a roster with so many holes, doling out $18M/yr for a JAG is a terrible use of cap.
Hey, I'm with you. But as we have heard, the analytics gurus really like LW. And I guarantee Team LW knows this and are positioning the starting point as DE money. Or a hybrid.
Hell, Grady Jarrett is making $17M as a DT! You don't think that Team LW thinks LW is > the Jarrett?!? Of course they do...
This whole defense sucks for the most part.
This whole defense sucks for the most part.
That's only if you don't consider his play as part of the Jets defense. He's not exactly a rookie, and he's not looking to be compensated like one.
The only logical defense I've heard regarding the trade is from those who believe the Giants should sign him at practically any cost; by trading for LW's rights, they basically have him locked down to at least a franchise or transition tag offer if they can't find a mutually agreeable extension.
That makes sense, although I can't understand why someone would be OK with giving him that much money given his performance with the Jets to date. It's as if LW is a known entity who's going to get top dollar, and the Giants wanted to be sure they were the ones to give it to him.
He has had the most pressures on the team since he's been here. as a DT. That's pretty damn impressive.
The real questions have been brought up - what will his cost be. If it is a fair deal, it was a good trade. If we can't resign him or resign him at a huge salary, it will be a poor trade.
Couple him with Lawrence and an EDGE rusher, and you have the makings of a DL that can be dominant.
Is he really just a "DT"?
He plays a 3-4 DE, and I believe that most of the time he is on the side away from the ER... Doesn't that make him the "Edge" guy from the "other" side of the defensive formation?
Shouldn't we expect a bit more pass rush than what is being seen from that spot?
It's kind of funny - so many similarities, and yet the people who continue to insist that the team's misfortunes are all still on Reese don't see a problem with many of the moves.
To be fair to Reese, I don't think even he would have traded 2 picks in a non-competitive season for the rights to overpay a FA who had been widely considered a draft bust.
The most common complaint about Reese, that he didn't hit on later picks, has been replaced by 'well, what would you have done with that 3rd round pick anyway'. A 3rd and 4th sent for Williams. A 4th and 6th sent for Ogletree. A 4th discarded with a quick cut on Lauletta.
But going down the complete list - from overpaying FAs who proved to be useless to neglecting the line of scrimmage - if you looked at the team's construction and moves from 2012-2019 and nobody told you, there'd be nothing to suggest a change in leadership in that timeframe.
That makes sense, although I can't understand why someone would be OK with giving him that much money given his performance with the Jets to date. It's as if LW is a known entity who's going to get top dollar, and the Giants wanted to be sure they were the ones to give it to him.
Williams, in three seasons, at USC had 8,5 and 7 sacks. And now in five NFL seasons, he has 17 sacks.
To me, if LW isn't getting sacks then he's just another guy in our rotation doing the same thing. He's basically superfluous. And we have put ourselves in a real bind trading for him.
If possible, I'd sign him and immediately look for a trade partner.
I am just stunned at this trade considering the other needs we have.
Yes - and that is a big problem, not a reason to trade away your 3rd rounders for nothing.
We may get the long awaited linebackers draft. We may get the long missing legendary INTs "+" safety draft. Those will be in rookie contracts. So in that way it balances a bit.
You probably want the DTs in place to do that.
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and sacks for a DT is just foolish - but not surprising.
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Williams doesn't play DT for us, he plays DE. We run a 3-4, which actually does not use a DT but a single NT instead, which is typically played by either Tomlinson or Lawrence.
So maybe you shouldn't be calling other posters foolish if you don't even know what position Williams plays.
At time yesterday, Williams lined up head over the center or in the C-G gaps. I think if you watch enoughg you'll see both Williams and Lawrence (at least those two) flip flopping inside and out. Tomlinson is more often a nose guard.
The 2012 draft isn't so long ago and not a single player is even still in the NFL. Prince is the only player still in the NFL from the 2011 draft.
Anyone wanting to trace back the failures of the past 5-6 years, the awful drafts from 2011-2017 are a pretty obvious place to start. It's, you know, the main reason the guy got fired in the first place.
I hope that doesn't bias the team's focus toward him and away from other available players.
If there is for instance an opportunity to land a great center, I'd hope Gettleman contemplates investing there over DL.
There are exist opportunities out there with a better cost/benefit.
Of the many things to worry about with this org, DG bringing in more "hog mollies" isn't one of them. And he's proven to be fairly solid evaluating them (Lawrence and Hernandez have both been good picks).
I'm far more worried about him getting coaching decisions right than draft picks.
Of the many things to worry about with this org, DG bringing in more "hog mollies" isn't one of them. And he's proven to be fairly solid evaluating them (Lawrence and Hernandez have both been good picks).
I'm far more worried about him getting coaching decisions right than draft picks.
If this is what Williams is, hes not value when they have to pay him a fortune or be the team that let a player they traded a 3rd round pick for walk away.
Also re: Williams if he walks they don't get nothing, they could easily get a comp pick within 30-40 spots of their original pick. Certainly not an ideal outcome but I don't think it will come to that. I've said time and time again the best outcome would be franchising him and seeing what he looks like for a full year before making a decision. And if we don't like what we see let him walk for the comp pick.
Also re: Williams if he walks they don't get nothing, they could easily get a comp pick within 30-40 spots of their original pick. Certainly not an ideal outcome but I don't think it will come to that. I've said time and time again the best outcome would be franchising him and seeing what he looks like for a full year before making a decision. And if we don't like what we see let him walk for the comp pick.
Unless you think DG is going to basically sit out FA or only sign low-money guys and players who are released and therefore ineligible for the comp pick calculations, it's highly unlikely they'll get anything for LW if he walks.
Also re: Williams if he walks they don't get nothing, they could easily get a comp pick within 30-40 spots of their original pick. Certainly not an ideal outcome but I don't think it will come to that. I've said time and time again the best outcome would be franchising him and seeing what he looks like for a full year before making a decision. And if we don't like what we see let him walk for the comp pick.
The Giants almost certainly will sign UFAs to offset the comp formula, and not get anything for Williams.
If he draws the DE tag at 18M, and the Giants risk souring the relationship, that's a pretty bad best outcome in my view.
It's obvious DG isn't planning to sit out FA this year with all the cap room they've accumulated so the comp pick possibility this year is never going to happen but IMO the best case scenario with LW is the tag vs. a long term deal before we know what we are getting. And who knows what the decision will be next year. The comp pick could come back into play then if they decide to let him walk. Or maybe they tag him again. The Cowboys tagged Lawrence twice if i'm not mistaken.
Of the many things to worry about with this org, DG bringing in more "hog mollies" isn't one of them. And he's proven to be fairly solid evaluating them (Lawrence and Hernandez have both been good picks).
I'm far more worried about him getting coaching decisions right than draft picks.
Has Hernandez proven to be a good pick? Right now, he's got a real Weston Richburg feel to him - solid rookie campaign, inconsistent second year.
Lawrence has been good - which you'd expect from a 17th overall.
The rest of his 'hog mollies' - the OL rebuild was a bust. The DL is a sieve. I'd say he has pretty clearly failed at his promise to control the LOS, despite allocating a fair number of resources to doing so.
It's obvious DG isn't planning to sit out FA this year with all the cap room they've accumulated so the comp pick possibility this year is never going to happen but IMO the best case scenario with LW is the tag vs. a long term deal before we know what we are getting. And who knows what the decision will be next year. The comp pick could come back into play then if they decide to let him walk. Or maybe they tag him again. The Cowboys tagged Lawrence twice if i'm not mistaken.
That's getting a little much for a player like Williams.
If the Giants give him north of 35M+ guaranteed over 2 years and don't retain his rights, that's bad deal.
I suspect Williams and his agent are excited to see what the UFA looks like with over 1.5B in cap space available in the NFL just this offseason. Not to mention this is his first opportunity to pick where he plays.
And honestly if you're Williams, and you're sitting through 8 weeks of this first-hand and the coach is fired, this isn't a resort destination.
re: Lawrence, yes he was a high pick and should be performing well, but he seems to outperforming many of the players picked ahead of time.
This team certainly is not yet good enough in the trenches, which is why I don't mind continuing to invest in players like Williams - they obviously need to invest wisely though. I'd feel a lot more comfortable giving Williams a 2nd contract after a full season. And if he doesn't warrant it i'd move on and take the comp pick.
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