The Ravens and 49ers are run first teams that are and 1 and 2 in the NFL in rushing (the Colts are third, which also supports the argument). A major argument against the SB pick has been that the NFL is a passing league. These two teams have shown you can win with a great running game and great defense and the running game can still help a QB. Does the success of these teams change anyone's mind re whether SB was the right pick? This is without getting into the argument of whether you can find quality RBs outside of the top of the first round.
Link - ( New Window )
Running the back still matters. You can run the ball effectively without wasting the second overall pick on a running back. We should know that better than anyone, winning Super Bowls with Jacobs, Bradshaw, etc.
In an offense designed like Shurmur's the RB is a complimentary piece. No reason to draft Saquon to use him the way they do.
What a waste of a talent.
Running the back still matters. You can run the ball effectively without wasting the second overall pick on a running back. We should know that better than anyone, winning Super Bowls with Jacobs, Bradshaw, etc.
That's a different question. One of the arguments has been that the RB position is devalued because the NFL rules make it a passing league
What a waste of a talent.
To be fair, they got Barkley the ball in the open field with man coverage by a LB against the Bears and he dropped it...
Bad argument. First of all, BBI consists of hundreds of members who rarely agree. There was far from a consensus on Rosen or Darnold, and I would argue a plurality of BBI’ers were against either.
We know the Jets paid heavily for trading up to get Darnold. If we trade with them, we end up with Quentin Nelson, and 2 Jets 2nd rounders (picks 36 & 37). Indy took LB Darius Leonard, only the AFC DROY, and their starter at RT, Braden Smith.
That is a haul, and how you rebuild a franchise.
Quote:
being able to use your RBs properly is as well. I get that our OL is weak, but not getting Saquon the ball in our final drive on short passing routes is a travesty. Asking him to remain and pass block while our hapless receivers can't even get open makes you really question the playcalling of Shurmur. Just get Saquon the ball in space and see what he can do instead of trying to squeeze another pass into tight coverage that our WRs can't seem to shake.
What a waste of a talent.
To be fair, they got Barkley the ball in the open field with man coverage by a LB against the Bears and he dropped it...
That's one play. Can you think of any other attempts to do this. I can't
Instead of drafting Saquon, we should have bolstered our O-Line with Quenton Nelson. Solid fronts are always the way to go, if not that, we should have at least taken the Linebacker from Georgia (Roquan Smith?)SP.
For the life of me, not even sure why this is being discussed anymore
Alvin Kamara
Kareem Hunt
Dalvin Cook
Austin Ekeler
Marlon Mack
We would have been much better off with Nelson at guard even if we took Hernandez in the 2nd.
The point is was that for a team that was as bad as the Giants, we could have picked up a FA RB on the cheap and filled another position that is harder to find in FA. The SB pick has not improved our O. I think he is a great kid and will probably be a great player but he was not the best pick for the Giants and the Giants are a terrible fit for SB. his best years will be wasted here in rebuild mode.
Who on this board WOULDN'T trade Barkley and Hernandez for Nelson and Chubb? Because that could be what we're working with here now, and that'd be a much better team.
People forget just how good Chubb was in college pre injury. He looked absolutely dominant and better than even Fournette.
I wanted Darnold (being honest here, although don't look now since he's been heating up), but for a "lines out, run the ball" guy Gettleman proclaims to be, Nelson and Chubb was the move and would have been much better asset/resource allocation.
Quote:
Rosen or Darnold. No brainer Saquon.
Bad argument. First of all, BBI consists of hundreds of members who rarely agree. There was far from a consensus on Rosen or Darnold, and I would argue a plurality of BBI’ers were against either.
We know the Jets paid heavily for trading up to get Darnold. If we trade with them, we end up with Quentin Nelson, and 2 Jets 2nd rounders (picks 36 & 37). Indy took LB Darius Leonard, only the AFC DROY, and their starter at RT, Braden Smith.
That is a haul, and how you rebuild a franchise.
God what a dream scenario that'd have been. Nelson, Chubb, Leonard, and a starter at RT.
That would have been franchise changing.
It's pretty clear at this point the pick was a huge error.
That, to me is the big issue.
Did Gettleman do his due diligence on Shurmur's offensive history before allowing him to get within sniffing distance of the head coaching job?
Assuming he knew Barkley was going to be his choice in the draft unless something changed the equation, two things are in play.
1. Gettleman knew Shurmur's history and took Saquon under the impression that the coach would be smart enough to figure it out.
2. Gettleman didn't know Shurmur's history. Yet, he bought into a whole bunch of his other qualities. He took Saquon but had no clue how he was going to be used.
If it's #2, then that is a fireable offense considering you would use the #2 pick in the draft on a player that your hand-selected coach never had plans on building an offense around to start with.
Remember last year, the coach said it took him until the bye week (8 games in) to realize he should give Barkley the ball more than he was. What?? And this is when the games were relatively close and they weren't getting blown out on their way to 1-7.
Quote:
In comment 14692768 Chip said:
Quote:
Rosen or Darnold. No brainer Saquon.
Bad argument. First of all, BBI consists of hundreds of members who rarely agree. There was far from a consensus on Rosen or Darnold, and I would argue a plurality of BBI’ers were against either.
We know the Jets paid heavily for trading up to get Darnold. If we trade with them, we end up with Quentin Nelson, and 2 Jets 2nd rounders (picks 36 & 37). Indy took LB Darius Leonard, only the AFC DROY, and their starter at RT, Braden Smith.
That is a haul, and how you rebuild a franchise.
God what a dream scenario that'd have been. Nelson, Chubb, Leonard, and a starter at RT.
That would have been franchise changing.
But as some of the beat reporters and those "close" to the Giants were putting out there pre-draft, the Giants didn't want to deal with the Jets out of fear that they would be responsible for handing them a potential "franchise quarterback" who they eventually drafted with the next pick anyway because they simply offered the same trade to the Colts.
in hindsight we would have been better trading with the Jets.
Quote:
In comment 14692798 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14692768 Chip said:
Quote:
Rosen or Darnold. No brainer Saquon.
Bad argument. First of all, BBI consists of hundreds of members who rarely agree. There was far from a consensus on Rosen or Darnold, and I would argue a plurality of BBI’ers were against either.
We know the Jets paid heavily for trading up to get Darnold. If we trade with them, we end up with Quentin Nelson, and 2 Jets 2nd rounders (picks 36 & 37). Indy took LB Darius Leonard, only the AFC DROY, and their starter at RT, Braden Smith.
That is a haul, and how you rebuild a franchise.
God what a dream scenario that'd have been. Nelson, Chubb, Leonard, and a starter at RT.
That would have been franchise changing.
But as some of the beat reporters and those "close" to the Giants were putting out there pre-draft, the Giants didn't want to deal with the Jets out of fear that they would be responsible for handing them a potential "franchise quarterback" who they eventually drafted with the next pick anyway because they simply offered the same trade to the Colts.
But I was apoplectic at the Barkley pick and wanted Chubb in the 2nd anyway. I'd probably have gotten over Nelson since he's already one of the best interior OLs in the NFL already.
Link - ( New Window )
One of the 49ers first signings of their new regime was to sign McKinnon from Minnesota.
Unfortunately, he has not been able to stay healthy and get on the field.
However...a player that has made up for that poor decision was Matt Breida, an undrafted player they signed that same year in 2017.
While McKinnon hasn't played much, Breida has. The last two seasons, he's averaged at least 5 yards per carry and was 4.4 in the rookie year. They were able to negate the bad signing (as it played out) with a player giving them quality production at league minimum money.
They went and signed Coleman because Shanahan knew him from Atlanta and wanted the two-headed RB tandem he had when Freeman was part of his offense.
Running back depth. That is what you want to have. Remember when the Giants had Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw for those 2 seasons. Ward gets hurt in 2017, but Bradshaw steps in. Jacobs gets nicked up and has to miss a game, but we had two guys ready to step in and not miss a beat.
49ers this season have 3 RB's with at least 70 carries. To put that in perspective, the person with second most carries on the Giants this season is Jones with 34.
They probably will release McKinnon after the season, resetting their money allocation to the RB position. But you can get away with it for one season. Putting $15/$20 million for multiple seasons? Bad business.
It's pretty clear at this point the pick was a huge error.
How So? He's in the 2nd year of a four year contract with a 5th year option? Am I missing something?
But I was apoplectic at the Barkley pick and wanted Chubb in the 2nd anyway. I'd probably have gotten over Nelson since he's already one of the best interior OLs in the NFL already.
To your point Sonic, that is where you have management who has to look at the decision devoid of emotion, because that's really what the trade boiled down to.
You have a team (Giants) needing many pieces to rebuild. You have a team (Jets) who have the assets you want and where a deal can be struck. Yet, for reasons beyond football, you don't want to do such a transaction.
If we replace "Jets" with "Bills" and they had those same picks, does this same deal get made? To me, it's very probable.
And let's say we do made the deal with the Jets and Darnold becomes a good QB and the Giants get the three players the Colts eventually drafted and both teams win. Would that have been so bad?
Two years later, the Giants are still looking for those players the Colts now have.
Quote:
We're already only a year away from having to pay him or trade him, and we've gotten nothing real out of him.
It's pretty clear at this point the pick was a huge error.
How So? He's in the 2nd year of a four year contract with a 5th year option? Am I missing something?
What Terps is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that with the precedent set by Elliott getting a new contract from Dallas after his third season this past summer, Barkley and his reps are going to ask for the same thing and will holdout to get his money.
Quote:
In comment 14692844 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
In comment 14692798 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14692768 Chip said:
Quote:
Rosen or Darnold. No brainer Saquon.
Bad argument. First of all, BBI consists of hundreds of members who rarely agree. There was far from a consensus on Rosen or Darnold, and I would argue a plurality of BBI’ers were against either.
We know the Jets paid heavily for trading up to get Darnold. If we trade with them, we end up with Quentin Nelson, and 2 Jets 2nd rounders (picks 36 & 37). Indy took LB Darius Leonard, only the AFC DROY, and their starter at RT, Braden Smith.
That is a haul, and how you rebuild a franchise.
God what a dream scenario that'd have been. Nelson, Chubb, Leonard, and a starter at RT.
That would have been franchise changing.
But as some of the beat reporters and those "close" to the Giants were putting out there pre-draft, the Giants didn't want to deal with the Jets out of fear that they would be responsible for handing them a potential "franchise quarterback" who they eventually drafted with the next pick anyway because they simply offered the same trade to the Colts.
tbf, that's a viable concern at the time. I know I'd have been apoplectic if they traded Darnold to the Jets.
But I was apoplectic at the Barkley pick and wanted Chubb in the 2nd anyway. I'd probably have gotten over Nelson since he's already one of the best interior OLs in the NFL already.
To be fair, if we make that trade with the Jets we probably don't get Nelson.
Draft probably goes
1) Baker
2) Darnold to Jets
3) Nelson to Indy
4) Saquon to Cle (total guess - I think they take him over Denzel)
5) Chubb to the Broncos
6) Denzel? Roquan?
Isn't their rumors of Roquan retiring?
But as some of the beat reporters and those "close" to the Giants were putting out there pre-draft, the Giants didn't want to deal with the Jets out of fear that they would be responsible for handing them a potential "franchise quarterback" who they eventually drafted with the next pick anyway because they simply offered the same trade to the Colts.
Yes, I read that too, and it is infuriating. I have no doubt those reports are true, and if they are, it is an indictment of how this franchise conducts its business. Make the moves you think are best and don’t look back.
5th rounder at G
Undrafted at Center
2 3rd rounders at RT and G
TE is a 5th rounder from Delaware in terms of starting depth
But you have the amazing Lamar who can make even bad blocking look good.
RBs need a crease..that is it. Our Ol can't move anyone and is why our offense sucks and SB is having issues. Last years OL was better than this year...
Hernandez as a #2 pick is a huge dissapointment. It gets lost as we are very focused on our horrible RT and LT.
Zeitler is hurt. Jury still out but why would anyone trade him if he was rock solid?
Centers are not starters...but valid backups
It all sucks. We are going to waste SB while DG continues to mess up on his #1 priority which was building the trenches. If he stays, the mess continues.
This debate is definitely not closed. He's probably too erratic a player in the long run but he's put up some big games.
Quote:
Rosen or Darnold. No brainer Saquon.
Bad argument. First of all, BBI consists of hundreds of members who rarely agree. There was far from a consensus on Rosen or Darnold, and I would argue a plurality of BBI’ers were against either.
We know the Jets paid heavily for trading up to get Darnold. If we trade with them, we end up with Quentin Nelson, and 2 Jets 2nd rounders (picks 36 & 37). Indy took LB Darius Leonard, only the AFC DROY, and their starter at RT, Braden Smith.
That is a haul, and how you rebuild a franchise.
+1
Who on this board WOULDN'T trade Barkley and Hernandez for Nelson and Chubb? Because that could be what we're working with here now, and that'd be a much better team.
+1
Where if you look at the premium FA positions like OT,CB,ER
those rookie deals rarely crack the top 30...
Nick BOSA is only the 26th highest paid edge rusher...
Denzel Ward is only the 31st highest paid corner
Tunisl and Dillard 27/31 highest paid LT
makes you feel nauseous when thinking we pay solder #2 overall
5th rounder at G
Undrafted at Center
2 3rd rounders at RT and G
TE is a 5th rounder from Delaware in terms of starting depth
But you have the amazing Lamar who can make even bad blocking look good.
RBs need a crease..that is it. Our Ol can't move anyone and is why our of
sucks and SB is having issues. Last years OL was better than this year...
Hernandez as a #2 pick is a huge dissapointment. It gets lost as we are very focused on our horrible RT and LT.
Their offensive line is devastating. Honestly, have you watched them at all?
Zeitler is hurt. Jury still out but why would anyone trade him if he was rock solid?
Centers are not starters...but valid backups
It all sucks. We are going to waste SB while DG continues to mess up on his #1 priority which was building the trenches. If he stays, the mess continues.
And mediocre.
We were sold that this guy was a sure fire HOF player that was touched by the hand of God.
Quite frankly he fucking sucks.
Quote:
Gettleman went out and picked a SOFT running back number 2.
And mediocre.
We were sold that this guy was a sure fire HOF player that was touched by the hand of God.
Quite frankly he fucking sucks.
isn't it a little early to say he fucking sucks? he was ROY last year. this year he missed 3 games with an ankle injury came back early and has had a lousy 5 games.
it might be true that it was not a wise pick in 2018 w the 2 overall, but this year he probably should have been held out til after the bye.
if shurmur had any balls he'd have sat him down and started gallman after the first or second game back when it was clear he wasn't getting it done.
Quote:
In comment 14693306 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Gettleman went out and picked a SOFT running back number 2.
And mediocre.
We were sold that this guy was a sure fire HOF player that was touched by the hand of God.
Quite frankly he fucking sucks.
isn't it a little early to say he fucking sucks?
Yes, but it also was way too early to call him the next Barry Sanders, but that didn't stop people..
Quote:
In comment 14693306 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Gettleman went out and picked a SOFT running back number 2.
And mediocre.
We were sold that this guy was a sure fire HOF player that was touched by the hand of God.
Quite frankly he fucking sucks.
isn't it a little early to say he fucking sucks? he was ROY last year. this year he missed 3 games with an ankle injury came back early and has had a lousy 5 games.
it might be true that it was not a wise pick in 2018 w the 2 overall, but this year he probably should have been held out til after the bye.
if shurmur had any balls he'd have sat him down and started gallman after the first or second game back when it was clear he wasn't getting it done.
I have said since before the draft that unless they wanted to draft a QB, the right decision is to move down and pick up the really good talent that was there in that draft.. but there is no way Barkley sucks.. Barkley is a damn good player.. its the rest of the team that sucks..
and soon enough your players mentality changes and that has happened to Barkley.. because of all this losing.. We have a losing culture.. we have a loser coach.. we have a GM who is planning to stop the 85 bears offense..
I don’t care why...hand of god, the other QBs weren’t the goods, arrogance, pretzel and hot dog offers, whatever.
And we are worse off because of it.
That’s all I have to say about that...
Link - ( New Window )
Lol.
Who on this board WOULDN'T trade Barkley and Hernandez for Nelson and Chubb? Because that could be what we're working with here now, and that'd be a much better team.
A much better team? Really now. That team is MUCH better than a team with Barkley and Hernandez?? Color me skeptical...
Yes, let’s worry about the money! Money that hasn’t even been paid yet, lol.
You guys form your own stress points out of thin air.
Quote:
And particularly in the 2nd round.
Who on this board WOULDN'T trade Barkley and Hernandez for Nelson and Chubb? Because that could be what we're working with here now, and that'd be a much better team.
A much better team? Really now. That team is MUCH better than a team with Barkley and Hernandez?? Color me skeptical...
Nelson is light years, LIGHT YEARS, better than Hernandez. Not even in the same planet.
Chubb is having a better year than Barkley this year, and was just as special in college pre knee injury. Whether he is as good of as an athlete or pass catcher doesn't seem to be mattering right now, does it?
Plus, the entire premise of this thread is that RBs can be had for later. Well, Chubb went 32+ picks after Barkley and is producing way more this year.
Not to mention he's a much better fit for our dogshit line than an hobbled Barkley. Barkley prefers to dance even though he has the frame and body to dish out some punishment.
Quote:
And particularly in the 2nd round.
Who on this board WOULDN'T trade Barkley and Hernandez for Nelson and Chubb? Because that could be what we're working with here now, and that'd be a much better team.
A much better team? Really now. That team is MUCH better than a team with Barkley and Hernandez?? Color me skeptical...
Nelson is light years, LIGHT YEARS, better than Hernandez. Not even in the same planet.
Chubb is having a better year than Barkley this year, and was just as special in college pre knee injury. Whether he is as good of as an athlete or pass catcher doesn't seem to be mattering right now, does it?
Plus, the entire premise of this thread is that RBs can be had for later. Well, Chubb went 32+ picks after Barkley and is producing way more this year.
Not to mention he's a much better fit for our dogshit line than an hobbled Barkley. Barkley prefers to dance even though he has the frame and body to dish out some punishment.
Please go ahead and look at yr 7 of all the big time RBs from 2005 on.
To be fair, if we make that trade with the Jets we probably don't get Nelson.
Draft probably goes
1) Baker
2) Darnold to Jets
3) Nelson to Indy
4) Saquon to Cle (total guess - I think they take him over Denzel)
5) Chubb to the Broncos
6) Denzel? Roquan?
Isn't their rumors of Roquan retiring?
Good point. He would have been gone by pick 3 most likely, considering Luck was playing and not protecting Luck was a major pain point (though who knows, maybe they would go Bradley Chubb) -- and saying that we should have taken a G at #2 overall was something that wasn't super popular. There were def people saying it, but they are in the minority for sure
Disagree. Darnold also would've been a better pick. That move could also have led to drafting Josh Allen, Devin Bush or Jonah Williams in 2019.
I don’t care why...hand of god, the other QBs weren’t the goods, arrogance, pretzel and hot dog offers, whatever.
And we are worse off because of it.
Gump, you are a fucking genius!!!
That’s all I have to say about that...
The great 49ers brought in Coleman from Atlanta. Atlanta has regressed, 49ers look great running. Obviously Shanahan values RB.
McCaffrey (a high pick) makes the Panthers go, and they were a missed chip shot field goal away from beating New Orleans. The Vikings have a great dual threat back in Dalvin Cook, as does New Orleans with Kamara, as does Dallas with Elliot (another high pick). Take away any of these RBs and let me know if you think their respective teams would be any good.
I agree that Chubb has looked great for the Browns (but does have some ball security issues). The Colts are coming back down to earth a bit. Nelson is a great Guard, but how has the free agent on Jacksonville that everyone wanted helped.
The bottom line is there are many ways to win, but you need to assemble talent. Barkely is a unique talent having a down year. He will bounce back. Also, great backs have pretty good longevity.
But nope. Hold on to being wrong. Never gets old here.
San Fran legitimately has a great rushing attack, but that doesn't really lend itself to the argument that being able to run the ball still supercedes passing - the 49ers also have the #1 defense in the league. They're dominant on that side of the ball, and of course the ability to make stops defensively and protect leads makes it much easier to commit to running the ball.