The Giants running game - in one year - has gone from exciting, to the same crap or worse than what we watched when Paul Perkins was the featured running back.
We have the number 2 pick in the draft at running back; a back who has demonstrated he is superior to any running back on the staff since Jacobs and Bradshaw, an offensive line that pound for pound is the best oline the Giants have fielded since Chris Snee and Shawn O'Hara retired.
Anyone here think that Perkins is a better running back than Barkley?
You can play the tapes any which way you want - but Solder, Hernandez, Halapio, Zeitler and Remmers should be a reasonably good Oline combo
Yet with a better running back and this combo of running back and what should be a better Oline have been sliding steadily backwards - literally eroding in front of our eyes.
It's frikken maddening!
Barkley can't be in that bad shape -- he's been leaping and cutting beautifully out there -- it's absolutely ridiculous that the Giants can't get a running game going with this group
IMO -- this is a serious indictment against the coaching staff -- absolutely unforgivable. I'm telling you this coaching staff shouldn't be coaching anything above pee wee league
I'd wait and see how this plays out at the end of the year
On Barkley's side, I really have to hope it's just lingering injury and not him getting sloppy or mailing it in from a work ethic perspective. There's also the possibility that with some film on him some of the flaws in his game have become easy to exploit (his tendency to dance a bit and his problems with pass pro).
I'd wait and see how this plays out at the end of the year
That drop he had was infuriating
Is that a real question?
I agree with this. He's hesitating even when there's a small hole. Don't know if he still doesn't trust the ankle or if its the poor OL, but he's certainly not as decisive.
And while it was 2 games, let's not forget he looked like 2018 Barkley, if not better, weeks 1-2.
On Barkley's side, I really have to hope it's just lingering injury and not him getting sloppy or mailing it in from a work ethic perspective. There's also the possibility that with some film on him some of the flaws in his game have become easy to exploit (his tendency to dance a bit and his problems with pass pro).
Jcn -- they don't need to be world beaters -- they just need to be adequate -- and they should be -- and Shurmur is a former offensive fukken lineman and he touted this group and virtually assured everyone they would be a good group
It's fukking bullchit what's happening out there -- and absolutely disgraceful
Now it's, hey run A or B gaps, stay between he tackles, where we clearly have the most problems getting any push.
Oh, and Lord forbid we ever run counter or anything that involves a TE/additional blocking on the line!
It's atrocious how predictably vanilla our run-game is. I don't blame Saquon one bit for hopping out of bounds or being as dancy-hesitant as he's been. Guy's probably like, I'm gonna go take a pounding running into several huge DL and LBs 15+ times a game for this guy? Screw that.
If there is an argument for Shurmur to be fired, it's that he trotted out Saquon way too soon, and put him at risk from doing a lot more damage.
BENCH HIM. Saquon shouldn't play another snap this year, but he will, and we will see the same things.
The oline is still a problem. Which has wrecked most of the development on O. I don't put this on Shurmer. This is Gettleman, who also made the call on DJ.. which is good. But its ruins the BBI quest to find a scape goat for our losing binge.
We will get there folks. Rebuild!
The oline is still a problem. Which has wrecked most of the development on O. I don't put this on Shurmer. This is Gettleman, who also made the call on DJ.. which is good. But its ruins the BBI quest to find a scape goat for our losing binge.
We will get there folks. Rebuild!
We've been in the process of "rebuilding".
2 wins going into December 1st.
Shurmur's offense uses zone blocking schemes (both inside and outside). They don't use a power-run blocking scheme.
I can’t understand this line of thinking.
It’s the same coaching staff. The only thing different is the personnel.
Remmers > Wheeler
Zeitler < Jamon
Pio ~ Pulley
19 Hrz < 18 Hrz
19 Solder < 18 Solder
19 Rhett < 18 Rhett
So only one upgrade year over year on the line
Now add that defenses no longer need to respect OBJ...
A missing component may be how well Eli adjusted the calls.
But the talent in front of Savino blows.
It was the same with Beckham on wrong screens. No blocking, just here OBJ, do something
+1
No designed runs to take advantage of his strengths. No attempts to get him the ball on the outside.
The offense looks so plain jane.
We need a bigger back to pair with SB as well. A guy who can pound the rock up the middle for 3-4 yards no matter what. The thunder and lightning of old if you will.
it has to be the coaching and the approach to team management -- nothing goes quite that wrong that way
The oline is still a problem. Which has wrecked most of the development on O. I don't put this on Shurmer. This is Gettleman, who also made the call on DJ.. which is good. But its ruins the BBI quest to find a scape goat for our losing binge.
We will get there folks. Rebuild!
Sure he's cutting beautifully:
https://youtu.be/gmh3MsNoy0M?t=682
No designed runs to take advantage of his strengths. No attempts to get him the ball on the outside.
The offense looks so plain jane.
We need a bigger back to pair with SB as well. A guy who can pound the rock up the middle for 3-4 yards no matter what. The thunder and lightning of old if you will.
do you even watch the games? every run outside is blown up even worse. why??
because it requires our TE or WR to seal the edge and a center/guard to get to the 2nd level - those don't work if the defense can shed the blocker in 0.25 seconds. which is exactly what we put on tape.
I agree this is probably the most overlooked part of the QB switch...Eli's ability to audible at the line.
No designed runs to take advantage of his strengths. No attempts to get him the ball on the outside.
The offense looks so plain jane.
We need a bigger back to pair with SB as well. A guy who can pound the rock up the middle for 3-4 yards no matter what. The thunder and lightning of old if you will.
i asked Sy about this, apparently we do less traps, sweeps, pulling then most teams but most teams are doing less of it in general.
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Shurmur is just gonna pound Barkley up the gut over and over.
No designed runs to take advantage of his strengths. No attempts to get him the ball on the outside.
The offense looks so plain jane.
We need a bigger back to pair with SB as well. A guy who can pound the rock up the middle for 3-4 yards no matter what. The thunder and lightning of old if you will.
every run to the outside has lost yards... it is not like they havent tried at all
It is pretty much 90% of how they use him though. To me it just shows Pat's lack of imagination.
@FieldYates
Giants RB Saquon Barkley had -13 rushing yards before contact on Sunday, the fifth-fewest by a player since ESPN began tracking it in 2007. He was contacted at or behind the line of scrimmage on 11 of 13 runs. The Jets dominated the Giants up front Sunday.
9:15 AM - 11 Nov 2019
No line would be reasonably good with Halapio at OC. He is so bad that he makes everyone around him suck.
You would think the Giants would understand the importance of a quality OC after having OHara in the SB years. After he retired they signed the best OC available (Baas) who unfortunately got hurt. When he got healthy at the end of 2011 the Giants finally clicked and the rest is history.
Why the fuck Gettleman didnt draft one of the top two centers instead of trading up for DeAndre Baker I will never understand. Both are starting for the teams that picked them and they are playing great.
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Solder, Hernandez, Halapio, Zeitler and Remmers should be a reasonably good Oline combo
No line would be reasonably good with Halapio at OC. He is so bad that he makes everyone around him suck.
You would think the Giants would understand the importance of a quality OC after having OHara in the SB years. After he retired they signed the best OC available (Baas) who unfortunately got hurt. When he got healthy at the end of 2011 the Giants finally clicked and the rest is history.
Why the fuck Gettleman didnt draft one of the top two centers instead of trading up for DeAndre Baker I will never understand. Both are starting for the teams that picked them and they are playing great.
Halapio had a pretty good game against the Bears.
Maybe Barkley's a great player, but if he is he hasn't made a difference here.
Teams are stacking the box waiting for Barkley. The formula since the Redskins game has been stop Barkley, make the kid beat you, collect the turnovers.
Until Jones and the receivers can make the other team pay in other than garbage time, that formula is going to continue.
it has to be the coaching and the approach to team management -- nothing goes quite that wrong that way
There's a giant gaping hole at C. Remmers was an average journeyman coming in with an injury history, couldn't pass a physical at the beginning of the football year. Solder was a liability last year, and there's more of the same this year. Zeitler is the only real upgrade, and maybe he's not as big of an upgrade as some thought.
I really don't think Shurmur's much of a coach, and I question his choice of OL position coach - but let's not just assume the talent on the OL warranted penciling them in at middle of the pack or better. It's entirely possible that even with competent coaching they're just not very good.
Not!
Maybe not so ironic with this coaching staff.
I really don't think Shurmur's much of a coach, and I question his choice of OL position coach - but let's not just assume the talent on the OL warranted penciling them in at middle of the pack or better. It's entirely possible that even with competent coaching they're just not very good.
It's more possible that with competent coaching they's be doing better -- if all the players in the same unit are doing worse than they were - the one variable is how they are being coached -- and this coach, and his staff, has proven incapable of improvements
I think this is a really good point.
I'm not at all pining for going back to #10 ... but it's been proven over his career that he's among the most prepared QBs to ever lace them up. A rookie with limited high-level experience in college is going to face plenty of obstacles, and not only the very apparent ones.
It's fundamentally why RBs are complimentary players on offense, and OLs and QBs are primary players...
I thought it was a very telling comment.
And to be honest, i mean, if i'm a defensive coordinator, my number one message is to stop Barkley. The thing that pisses me off the most is why can Carolina get McCaffery in space and we cant do it for Barkley.
And to be honest, i mean, if i'm a defensive coordinator, my number one message is to stop Barkley. The thing that pisses me off the most is why can Carolina get McCaffery in space and we cant do it for Barkley.
That's an interesting example because I've seen it written more than once that the problem the Giants have is that the OL is incompetent and Jones is a rookie, so defenses only have to key in on Barkley.
Allen and Carolina are in the same boat, though.
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I really don't think Shurmur's much of a coach, and I question his choice of OL position coach - but let's not just assume the talent on the OL warranted penciling them in at middle of the pack or better. It's entirely possible that even with competent coaching they're just not very good.
It's more possible that with competent coaching they's be doing better -- if all the players in the same unit are doing worse than they were - the one variable is how they are being coached -- and this coach, and his staff, has proven incapable of improvements
I think it's undeniable that the OL would be better with better coaching. No argument there.
The question is - how much? Some of the performances have been so bad, they're losing 1:1 battles that they shouldn't be. It's just as likely that even with a significant boost from a much better coach this group would aspire to be average.
What we need right now is a north-south runner, not a dancer trying to score high on style. Hit the hole quickly and move the pile. A style that is blue collar and dirty.
Unfortunately, Barkley has become too finesse. Too interested, it seems, in creativity and not digging in. Im not sure thats part of his DNA, but he needs to adjust for a while and try to be much more vertical instead of horizontal...
How can Mara not look at Shurmur like a complete idiot? The loser has no brand of leadership, his football acumen is piss poor, and he's developing no foundational building blocks.
Even if you can justify keeping DG, is he not putting his own legacy on the line? The lack of progress with Barkley? The regression of much of the team? Zero in-game adjustments? Sh*t positional coaches?
This is just as much an indictment of DG. Why would Gettleman not want to move on?
We've seen him get pounded n/s time after time which doesnt really fit the skill-set. Maybe the shit coaching is in the guys head? Ala, Bobby Ross trying to change Barry Sanders.
I think they need to run about 4-5 boots per game with Jones all off of play action. This will help loosen up the middle a bit to give this bad OL a chance.
Sick of the excuses for the awful play.
And it wasn't only those two weeks. About half the games last year, his rushing production was very mediocre.
Even last year, he was not the guy you could drive down the field with and get a reliable 4-5 yards a carry to move the chains.
It would be dribs and drabs and then the home run. Understandable that people remember the home runs. But there is some amnesia about how much frustration there was with the number of rushes that went nowhere; how much criticism there was of the run blocking; and how much confidence was expressed that Barkley would take off this year with a new right side of the OL.
Instead, this year we have the dribs and drabs and the home runs haven't been as frequent.
As for the ankle, I wouldn't entirely discount a lingering effect. Consider, though, Barkley's stat line in the Bucs' game, before the injury: 8 carries for 10 yards.
What we need right now is a north-south runner, not a dancer trying to score high on style. Hit the hole quickly and move the pile. A style that is blue collar and dirty.
Unfortunately, Barkley has become too finesse. Too interested, it seems, in creativity and not digging in. Im not sure thats part of his DNA, but he needs to adjust for a while and try to be much more vertical instead of horizontal...
Agreed bw, Of course, if that is the style you need, then you don't need the #2 pick in the draft and $7M to do that job.
Jones isn't going to do that at this point in his development.
Also Halapio totally sucks balls.
The Giants running game seemingly consists of "here Saquon, go do something with this ball I'm giving you." No zone blocking, no scheme, no nothing. Literally no imagination whatsoever. It is so maddening to watch. Something is - many things, really, are - seriously, seriously amiss with their approach.
It was the same with Beckham on wrong screens. No blocking, just here OBJ, do something
There's a Shurmur quote in the last month saying almost exactly this. "You just give him the ball and let him do his thing"
Reminds me of the coaches that constantly talk about winning one on one matchups, but do nothing to help with scheme
Imo you are a pretty bad coach if you say this. As if there is EVER a time to NOT try giving your players an advantage? Doesn't matter if it's PP, SB, WG or whoever. It's lazy as fuck if they actually approach it like this. But more than a few do it seems
Tell that to the Ravens
That's the point. He's a RB. He may never be 100%.
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In comment 14693009 lawguy98 Quote:
The Giants running game seemingly consists of "here Saquon, go do something with this ball I'm giving you." No zone blocking, no scheme, no nothing. Literally no imagination whatsoever. It is so maddening to watch. Something is - many things, really, are - seriously, seriously amiss with their approach.
It was the same with Beckham on wrong screens. No blocking, just here OBJ, do something
There's a Shurmur quote in the last month saying almost exactly this. "You just give him the ball and let him do his thing"
Reminds me of the coaches that constantly talk about winning one on one matchups, but do nothing to help with scheme
Imo you are a pretty bad coach if you say this. As if there is EVER a time to NOT try giving your players an advantage? Doesn't matter if it's PP, SB, WG or whoever. It's lazy as fuck if they actually approach it like this. But more than a few do it seems
If Shurmur really said that, then he's McAdoo level as a head coach. Because McAdoo had the exact same strategy with Beckham. Throw it to him on a slant and gamble that he'll take it the distance.
Remmers was a dumpster dive signing AFTER the draft. Halapio has always been trash. Solder was bad most of 18.
The coaching is terrible but theres still work to be done in the trenches.
PSshwa-mur
Remmers was a dumpster dive signing AFTER the draft. Halapio has always been trash. Solder was bad most of 18.
The coaching is terrible but theres still work to be done in the trenches.
Yes that was and still is my take -- and it will keep on being my take -- this is why I'm infuriated -- they have been taken and ground down to less than they were when they were acquired
I think you draft a quick burst instant to the edge outside runs get yiy six yards reliably type in addition to barkely .
And look for a free agent centervehi can block zone and power .
And a true run blocking TE not the narrative only type
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Youre one of the suckers who bought the best OL since 11 bullshit.
Remmers was a dumpster dive signing AFTER the draft. Halapio has always been trash. Solder was bad most of 18.
The coaching is terrible but theres still work to be done in the trenches.
Yes that was and still is my take -- and it will keep on being my take -- this is why I'm infuriated -- they have been taken and ground down to less than they were when they were acquired
Thats fine but its not the correct take. Id be shocked if Halapio and Remmers are starting in 20.
Remmers was a dumpster dive signing AFTER the draft. Halapio has always been trash. Solder was bad most of 18.
The coaching is terrible but theres still work to be done in the trenches.
Sad but very true. I bought into Remmers being better as a tackle and miscast as a guard, solder being more like second half 2018 soldier and Halapio being promising but obviously we were wrong.
And it wasn't only those two weeks. About half the games last year, his rushing production was very mediocre.
Even last year, he was not the guy you could drive down the field with and get a reliable 4-5 yards a carry to move the chains.
It would be dribs and drabs and then the home run. Understandable that people remember the home runs. But there is some amnesia about how much frustration there was with the number of rushes that went nowhere; how much criticism there was of the run blocking; and how much confidence was expressed that Barkley would take off this year with a new right side of the OL.
Instead, this year we have the dribs and drabs and the home runs haven't been as frequent.
As for the ankle, I wouldn't entirely discount a lingering effect. Consider, though, Barkley's stat line in the Bucs' game, before the injury: 8 carries for 10 yards.
Hilarious to see people try to whitewash 2000 scrimmage yards and 15 TDs. Seriously hilarious.
And it wasn't only those two weeks. About half the games last year, his rushing production was very mediocre.
Even last year, he was not the guy you could drive down the field with and get a reliable 4-5 yards a carry to move the chains.
It would be dribs and drabs and then the home run. Understandable that people remember the home runs. But there is some amnesia about how much frustration there was with the number of rushes that went nowhere; how much criticism there was of the run blocking; and how much confidence was expressed that Barkley would take off this year with a new right side of the OL.
Instead, this year we have the dribs and drabs and the home runs haven't been as frequent.
As for the ankle, I wouldn't entirely discount a lingering effect. Consider, though, Barkley's stat line in the Bucs' game, before the injury: 8 carries for 10 yards.
Interesting. Some other points, I remember Madden used to say that a good running back could make the o line look better than they were. Which I mention because, yeah, the o line aint great but they cant be blamed for everything on every play. Thats the 2 pick in the draft, he needs to make players around him better than they are. I dont think weve seen that from Barks. Also, hes knicked up for sure and I dont question his toughness playing they a high ankle sprain but how many NFL RBs play a 16 season w/o being banged up?
The talent on the line sucks. Zeitler isn't very good, Remmers is awful, Solder is below average, Halapio is awful. Hernandez is the only above average player on the line. And he hasn't taken the step we all thought he would this year.
Barkley deserves his share of the blame too. He is always looking for the spectacular run. If I never saw him do a spin move ever again I'd be happy. Hit the hole and stop the flashy shit. People constantly make excuses for him but he needs to be better. The 2nd round pick at running back can not put out this garbage. He's making huge money already.
Picking a RB 2nd overall with the shape this roster was in will never make sense on any level.
Barkley made a big show of "coming back" from it in record time, but it seems incredibly clear he hasn't been "back" at all.
+1 let's run SB up the gut for 1 yd on first down!!!
Giants brass wants to pin this all on coaching. No doubt the coaching is bad. But
A) That's on the front office too any mention of Shurmur being bad should absolutely fall just as much on DG for picking Shurmur, or higher up the food chain if they'd prefer. DG was brought in first, he talked a big game. The coaching hire was the most important decision. If he is so bad so are you.
B) A lot of the "reporting" is the same people that told us that Flowers was ready to break through 2 years in a row with puff pieces and that Snacks went from a leader to a cancer in the blink of an eye. Whatever serves the narrative that we don't need major front office changes will get pushed. And too many eat it up and regurgitate it with joy.
C) The NFL is incredibly competitive. Our problem on offense is that we are spending $39.2M on two players not on the field. At a cap of 188.2, assuming a 50/50 split for offense that's 41.7% of our allocation for that unit with zero dollars allocated with specials. It is beyond irresponsible to sit here and act like this isn't just as much on the front office as the coaching, if not more
D) One more thing on Beckham, not saying we shouldn't have traded him but a little more by the numbers. Last season Barkley averaged 29.75 yards receiving with Beckham in the lineup drawing the attention of DCs and 46.3 with OBJ in. That's 55.6% better. I keep seeing people talk about what a great signing Tate was, we are 0-7 with him. People talk about it like building an offense or OL that works is alchemy. Our OL looks worse because our receiving options scare no one.
We don't have enough talent on offense, we don't have enough talent on defense. We hear all this bluster and BS about never mailing in a season yet we do that with our ineptitude, which is worse. This is talked about like it's a coaching problem where we can't evaluate anything else because the coaching is so bad when it is very clearly a pervasive problem stemming from the top.
Remmers was a dumpster dive signing AFTER the draft. Halapio has always been trash. Solder was bad most of 18.
The coaching is terrible but theres still work to be done in the trenches.
Yes that was and still is my take -- and it will keep on being my take -- this is why I'm infuriated -- they have been taken and ground down to less than they were when they were acquired
The more I think about this - the more pissed off I get. If I was right and this group is better than what we've had and they slid backwards, and if this group sucked to begin with, Shurmur claimed they were more than adequate and that he knew what he was getting, especially with Remmers, and being an Offensive Line expert he should be getting the maximum out of them -- and he clearly isn't. And if he is playing Barkley hurt or unhurt -- he clearly isn't playing him to the best advantage. The scheme sucks. It's boring predictable and incapable of seizing a game right now -- we got a small spark by putting Jones in and then slipped right out of it.
Fark this -- I really don't want to watch his face on the sidelines anymore -- it just makes me rage all the more -- he looks and acts clueless. He makes terrible decisions too -- he went for one fourth down and I knew it was a mistake when they lined up -- I knew they were incapable of making it -- and they ran the predictable play and got stopped giving the Bears great field position. He called a time out in the fourth Quarter that was bullchit with more than 4 minutes to play. He just strategically doesn't get it. His play selection gets more and more vanilla, and the players get worse and worse at performing it.
It's Craptastic!!!!
Giants brass wants to pin this all on coaching. No doubt the coaching is bad. But
A) That's on the front office too any mention of Shurmur being bad should absolutely fall just as much on DG for picking Shurmur, or higher up the food chain if they'd prefer. DG was brought in first, he talked a big game. The coaching hire was the most important decision. If he is so bad so are you.
B) A lot of the "reporting" is the same people that told us that Flowers was ready to break through 2 years in a row with puff pieces and that Snacks went from a leader to a cancer in the blink of an eye. Whatever serves the narrative that we don't need major front office changes will get pushed. And too many eat it up and regurgitate it with joy.
C) The NFL is incredibly competitive. Our problem on offense is that we are spending $39.2M on two players not on the field. At a cap of 188.2, assuming a 50/50 split for offense that's 41.7% of our allocation for that unit with zero dollars allocated with specials. It is beyond irresponsible to sit here and act like this isn't just as much on the front office as the coaching, if not more
D) One more thing on Beckham, not saying we shouldn't have traded him but a little more by the numbers. Last season Barkley averaged 29.75 yards receiving with Beckham in the lineup drawing the attention of DCs and 46.3 with OBJ in. That's 55.6% better. I keep seeing people talk about what a great signing Tate was, we are 0-7 with him. People talk about it like building an offense or OL that works is alchemy. Our OL looks worse because our receiving options scare no one.
We don't have enough talent on offense, we don't have enough talent on defense. We hear all this bluster and BS about never mailing in a season yet we do that with our ineptitude, which is worse. This is talked about like it's a coaching problem where we can't evaluate anything else because the coaching is so bad when it is very clearly a pervasive problem stemming from the top.
Preach
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from last year is lesser -- proves the point -- oline operates on cohesion and consistency -- this oline has been together for the most part and instead of cohesion it's sliding backwards into the abyss
it has to be the coaching and the approach to team management -- nothing goes quite that wrong that way
There's a giant gaping hole at C. Remmers was an average journeyman coming in with an injury history, couldn't pass a physical at the beginning of the football year. Solder was a liability last year, and there's more of the same this year. Zeitler is the only real upgrade, and maybe he's not as big of an upgrade as some thought.
I really don't think Shurmur's much of a coach, and I question his choice of OL position coach - but let's not just assume the talent on the OL warranted penciling them in at middle of the pack or better. It's entirely possible that even with competent coaching they're just not very good.
there are teams around the league with O lines that are about as talented as the Giants and they win a lot more games than we do, its the coaches in game decisions and play calling that's killing this team
And it wasn't only those two weeks. About half the games last year, his rushing production was very mediocre.
Even last year, he was not the guy you could drive down the field with and get a reliable 4-5 yards a carry to move the chains.
It would be dribs and drabs and then the home run. Understandable that people remember the home runs. But there is some amnesia about how much frustration there was with the number of rushes that went nowhere; how much criticism there was of the run blocking; and how much confidence was expressed that Barkley would take off this year with a new right side of the OL.
Instead, this year we have the dribs and drabs and the home runs haven't been as frequent.
As for the ankle, I wouldn't entirely discount a lingering effect. Consider, though, Barkley's stat line in the Bucs' game, before the injury: 8 carries for 10 yards.
the problem isn't the player its the plays that are called that is killing this offense..