wasn't exactly defendin him, but he was saying they haven't tuned him out which I think is ridiculous. Did he not see him getting the cold shoulder during the Jets game?
Where it’s clear the talent is there, yet he can’t get them to win. And he doesn’t have the Trophy’s to keep messing up.
A TC moment? Are you referring to Tom Coughlin? A couple of problems with that. Tom Coughlin took those teams to two Super Bowl wins beating Tom Brady and the Patriots TWICE!
When you say the talent was there what are you talking about? The last 5 years TC was here the roster was atrocious! If that wasn't the truth then Jerry Reese would still be the GM of this team.
Where it’s clear the talent is there, yet he can’t get them to win. And he doesn’t have the Trophy’s to keep messing up.
A TC moment? Are you referring to Tom Coughlin? A couple of problems with that. Tom Coughlin took those teams to two Super Bowl wins beating Tom Brady and the Patriots TWICE!
When you say the talent was there what are you talking about? The last 5 years TC was here the roster was atrocious! If that wasn't the truth then Jerry Reese would still be the GM of this team.
He may last the season but he won’t be coaching the Cowboys next year.living here in Dallas all Cowboys fans blame Garrett for teams lack of success.
Tonight I spent Thanksgiving with at least 15 die hard Cowboys fans and everyone wanted Garrett fired after the game. It is over for him.
Granted, with Philly's schedule the way it is (@MIA, NYG, @WAS, DAL, @NYG), Dallas's prospects look grim. But a win over either the Bears or the Rams sets up a likely NFC East Title Game at the Linc in Week 16.
With rare exceptions like Belichick or H*ndl*y, head coaches get too much credit and too much blame. Garrett is a company guy, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Give him 8-8 talent, and he'll probably wind up within a standard deviation or two of 8-8.
2 standard deviations encompass 96%, so yeah...I hope he’d be within 2 most of the time (grin)
Hah - got me there. Stat 101 was a long time ago.
FWIW, I think the bell curve is pretty steep. Given average talent and average injuries, most coaching staffs will cluster between 6-10 and 10-6. North of that range, you're in Belichick territory.
has, you could argue he is doing a worse job than Shurmur. You can blame Prescott but that is a top 3 offense, but there is definitely something wrong because they are not scoring.
Where it’s clear the talent is there, yet he can’t get them to win. And he doesn’t have the Trophy’s to keep messing up.
A TC moment? Are you referring to Tom Coughlin? A couple of problems with that. Tom Coughlin took those teams to two Super Bowl wins beating Tom Brady and the Patriots TWICE!
When you say the talent was there what are you talking about? The last 5 years TC was here the roster was atrocious! If that wasn't the truth then Jerry Reese would still be the GM of this team.
A classic example of people only seeing what they want to see.
Look, Coughlin was a good coach and no one is taking his two super bowl trophies away - but how many seasons did his Giant teams start off hot at like 6-2 and then bumble their way through the rest of the season and either get knocked out of the first round of the playoffs or end up missing it entirely?
Coughlin is a better coach than Garrett but the results lately have been similar.
He instinctively started to laugh when I brought up the Garrett and Giants rumors. It wasn't a ball busting and trash talk kind of laugh either, it was genuine amusement.
He's a mediocre to bad coach. They have one of the more talented rosters in the NFL, there is no reason they shouldn't be super bowl contenders this year.
Dallas definitely has plenty of individual talent Â
He is way too conservative a coach and does not have that killler instinct on game day. He flat out admitted that he doesn't utilize in-game analytics in his situational decision making. Up until this year, his offenses have been somewhat old school - not a ton of creativity. His teams have consistently underperformed in big spots, this dates back to Tony Romo at QB. Fair or unfair, he has a reputation as a "yes man".
RE: Dallas definitely has plenty of individual talent Â
but how is Garrett holding them back, specifically in your all's opinion?
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
So in the case of Dallas, where there is a significant amount of individual talent, the record is not the fault of the head coach. However, for the Giants, who have a dearth of individual talent, the record is all Shurmur's fault (not that I think Shurmur's a good HC). Just sayin', why should we judge Garrett any differently than Shurmur is being judged?
Sad fact...Garrett can thank the NY Football Giants for 33% of his wins this year.
Coaching "America's Team", with a huge fan base, national exposure, and a talented roster is a dream job for a coach... but how much of a turn-off is JJ.
I think he's a great owner, a very good GM, but his constant meddling might scare off some of the top prospects.
That's probably one of the reasons he's been patient with Garrett. I dont buy all that "he loves Garrett as a person & wants to still believe in him" talk. Finding a winning HC who can put up with JJ's ego may not be an easy task.
If I remember right, Sean Payton was next in line after Wade Phillips, but he opted to go to the Saints (post Katrina, which wasnt an easy move for his family) because he didnt think he could co-exist with JJ.
but how is Garrett holding them back, specifically in your all's opinion?
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
So in the case of Dallas, where there is a significant amount of individual talent, the record is not the fault of the head coach. However, for the Giants, who have a dearth of individual talent, the record is all Shurmur's fault (not that I think Shurmur's a good HC). Just sayin', why should we judge Garrett any differently than Shurmur is being judged?
Sad fact...Garrett can thank the NY Football Giants for 33% of his wins this year.
Kicker misses 2 chip shots.
Dak is brutal on third d
Dak is brutal with any sort of pressure around him
Dak is terrible when he has to run for and pickup yards. Twice he came up short when he easily should have had the first down.
Instead of blaming the coach check out Daks footwork in anything less than a perfect pocket. You will see a guy who has no concept how to play in anything less than an ideal pocket. So many times yesterday the slightest pressure near him instead of sliding to avoid the pressure he either just tucks and runs or just throws the ball to any wr he can quickly. It’s either I have a clean pocket or I have to run. Never a thought about scrambling and resetting his feet. He is brutal and that is the hard truth about the Dallas offense.
RE: RE: RE: Dallas definitely has plenty of individual talent Â
but how is Garrett holding them back, specifically in your all's opinion?
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
So in the case of Dallas, where there is a significant amount of individual talent, the record is not the fault of the head coach. However, for the Giants, who have a dearth of individual talent, the record is all Shurmur's fault (not that I think Shurmur's a good HC). Just sayin', why should we judge Garrett any differently than Shurmur is being judged?
Sad fact...Garrett can thank the NY Football Giants for 33% of his wins this year.
Do you have an answer to my question?
It's been answered.
He has had one of the more talented rosters in the league for the past several seasons and he's won 1 playoff game in that time. If the talent is on the roster and they still can't win, there is no one left to blame but the HC and his staff. No other specifics are needed.
He is way too conservative a coach and does not have that killler instinct on game day. He flat out admitted that he doesn't utilize in-game analytics in his situational decision making. Up until this year, his offenses have been somewhat old school - not a ton of creativity. His teams have consistently underperformed in big spots, this dates back to Tony Romo at QB. Fair or unfair, he has a reputation as a "yes man".
This, and the offense has went back to its conservative roots after that Jets loss. Clear as day, instead of blaming himself for his team coming out flat as fuck, beat up against an inferior opponent getting their QB back after what is essentially a lost season because he got Mono on the road, he dips back to what is comfortable for him. A smart coach is able to show his team what they are walking into in that Jets game. They played that first half like all they had to do was show up to win.
Googs: I think the specific complaints about Garrett... Â
...tend to cluster around a few issues.
1) Conservatism/timidity. This one came to a head after he kicked a field goal to reduce the deficit from seven to four against New England. Fairly or not, Garrett is viewed as a "play the percentages" coach who doesn't even have a firm grasp of the actual percentages.
2) Lack of team discipline. I'm not sure how the off-field stuff lands on Garrett. If the Joneses draft headcases, and sign headcases as free agents, the headcases are going to do headcase stuff outside the lines.
3) Finding ways to lose. This is the killer, and it's closely related to #2. The Jet game may have been the beginning of the end for Jason Garrett, because Dallas dominated for most of the game, and they didn't even turn the ball over. They simply couldn't get out of the hole they dug early. They tried to repeat this pattern against the Giants, but failed because the Giants wouldn't accept the gift.
The Cowboys are a juggernaut between the 20s, and when they win, they usually win big: their narrowest victory was 8 points, and they have led by at least two TDs in the fourth quarter of all six wins. That probably leads fans to conclude the team is talent laden, rightly or wrongly. Dallas is 0-4 in close games. That doesn't reflect well on the head coach, though it's a small sample and three of those games were against title contenders. Again, the Jet game stands out, and not in a good way.
How do people know this? In other words...for teams that have bad coaching, like the giants, how can you truly assess talent?
How do we know that Garrett and his coaching staff have maximized the talent on the roster? Is Prescott really that good or has Garrett put him in a position to succeed?
Cowboy fans should be careful what they ask for....getting a new coach is no easy task and Garrett and his staff have them competitive every year. I would welcome that staff based on the last five plus years.
I'm not a fan of Garrett's but I also don't get the criticism he takes Â
If really this is just about how a talented team like theirs should be doing better than so be it.
I just see a team that is typically pretty damn competitive, has won the NFCE several times in the last few years and is able to develop a lot of talent on the field no matter whey have come from.
Dallas is not exactly a place that has low expectations though...
If really this is just about how a talented team like theirs should be doing better than so be it.
I just see a team that is typically pretty damn competitive, has won the NFCE several times in the last few years and is able to develop a lot of talent on the field no matter whey have come from.
Dallas is not exactly a place that has low expectations though...
I agree. Personally I think that you can't have a talented team with out good coaching...kids rarely show up from college already "talented". Look at the players that left New England...they almost always play down a level.
RE: Man, whatever problems the Cowboys are having... Â
...the Giants would be very grateful to have their "problems."
Their problems are fixable in the last third of this season.
Our problems will stretch for a decade, if not more.
I don't know about that, how are these problems fixable when this is who your head coach fundamentally is. They have yet to beat a good team this season with a few of those games taking place at home. And its the same story in every loss, their loaded offense doesn't put up points. This isn't like us, where we are just looking for a perennial playoff births right now. Its an organization that has a pretty stacked roster who drafted a decent QB in the 4th round effectively saving 30 million in cap space. All the talk was about the Eagles before the season, but I always thought it was Dallas that had legit SB odds. Eagles are old as fuck, no surprise half their roster is injured.
Kicker misses 2 chip shots.
Dak is brutal on third d
Dak is brutal with any sort of pressure around him
Dak is terrible when he has to run for and pickup yards. Twice he came up short when he easily should have had the first down.
Instead of blaming the coach check out Daks footwork in anything less than a perfect pocket. You will see a guy who has no concept how to play in anything less than an ideal pocket. So many times yesterday the slightest pressure near him instead of sliding to avoid the pressure he either just tucks and runs or just throws the ball to any wr he can quickly. It’s either I have a clean pocket or I have to run. Never a thought about scrambling and resetting his feet. He is brutal and that is the hard truth about the Dallas offense.
What to the BBI experts think of this. I’m not football savvy enough to evaluate QB play at this level. Generally think Dak is pretty darn good. Is he really a coach killer.
but Garrett has a long history of coming up short, no idea why anyone is just looking at 2019 Dallas. He came up short with Romo too, arguably had better teams then as well.
He’s a guy that for whatever reason doesn’t seem like he can get over the hump. I hope he’s given a nice fat extension.
Kicker misses 2 chip shots.
Dak is brutal on third d
Dak is brutal with any sort of pressure around him
Dak is terrible when he has to run for and pickup yards. Twice he came up short when he easily should have had the first down.
Instead of blaming the coach check out Daks footwork in anything less than a perfect pocket. You will see a guy who has no concept how to play in anything less than an ideal pocket. So many times yesterday the slightest pressure near him instead of sliding to avoid the pressure he either just tucks and runs or just throws the ball to any wr he can quickly. It’s either I have a clean pocket or I have to run. Never a thought about scrambling and resetting his feet. He is brutal and that is the hard truth about the Dallas offense.
What to the BBI experts think of this. I’m not football savvy enough to evaluate QB play at this level. Generally think Dak is pretty darn good. Is he really a coach killer.
That's really the definition of coach killer. Clearly has talent and always looks just good enough to keep him under contract. Never wins the big game. Always makes mistakes at the worst possible time. Who doesn't think Cowboys arw better if a healthy Romo is behind center? Just my dopey opinion but I think Prescott is holding that team back. Although I guess one could argue a better coach would do more to mask his weaknesses, and build an offense that he could be more consistent in.
Not against these defenses.
He has been sick of Garrett since like 2012.
A TC moment? Are you referring to Tom Coughlin? A couple of problems with that. Tom Coughlin took those teams to two Super Bowl wins beating Tom Brady and the Patriots TWICE!
When you say the talent was there what are you talking about? The last 5 years TC was here the roster was atrocious! If that wasn't the truth then Jerry Reese would still be the GM of this team.
In comment 14695031 nzyme said:
Quote:
Where it’s clear the talent is there, yet he can’t get them to win. And he doesn’t have the Trophy’s to keep messing up.
A TC moment? Are you referring to Tom Coughlin? A couple of problems with that. Tom Coughlin took those teams to two Super Bowl wins beating Tom Brady and the Patriots TWICE!
When you say the talent was there what are you talking about? The last 5 years TC was here the roster was atrocious! If that wasn't the truth then Jerry Reese would still be the GM of this team.
When did TC fail to win here despite the team being talented enough? They sucked on skates from 2013-2015.
Garrett is well above 500 as Dallas HC. He’s not having a good year this season but overall he’s won a lot of games in Dallas.
Tonight I spent Thanksgiving with at least 15 die hard Cowboys fans and everyone wanted Garrett fired after the game. It is over for him.
With rare exceptions like Belichick or H*ndl*y, head coaches get too much credit and too much blame. Garrett is a company guy, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Give him 8-8 talent, and he'll probably wind up within a standard deviation or two of 8-8.
I'm not a Cowboys fan (far from it) and they should be winning more games. That is a fully loaded roster.
FWIW, I think the bell curve is pretty steep. Given average talent and average injuries, most coaching staffs will cluster between 6-10 and 10-6. North of that range, you're in Belichick territory.
Whatever, it made for a better Thanksgiving Day.
Quote:
Where it’s clear the talent is there, yet he can’t get them to win. And he doesn’t have the Trophy’s to keep messing up.
A TC moment? Are you referring to Tom Coughlin? A couple of problems with that. Tom Coughlin took those teams to two Super Bowl wins beating Tom Brady and the Patriots TWICE!
When you say the talent was there what are you talking about? The last 5 years TC was here the roster was atrocious! If that wasn't the truth then Jerry Reese would still be the GM of this team.
A classic example of people only seeing what they want to see.
Look, Coughlin was a good coach and no one is taking his two super bowl trophies away - but how many seasons did his Giant teams start off hot at like 6-2 and then bumble their way through the rest of the season and either get knocked out of the first round of the playoffs or end up missing it entirely?
Coughlin is a better coach than Garrett but the results lately have been similar.
He's a mediocre to bad coach. They have one of the more talented rosters in the NFL, there is no reason they shouldn't be super bowl contenders this year.
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
So in the case of Dallas, where there is a significant amount of individual talent, the record is not the fault of the head coach. However, for the Giants, who have a dearth of individual talent, the record is all Shurmur's fault (not that I think Shurmur's a good HC). Just sayin', why should we judge Garrett any differently than Shurmur is being judged?
Sad fact...Garrett can thank the NY Football Giants for 33% of his wins this year.
I think he's a great owner, a very good GM, but his constant meddling might scare off some of the top prospects.
That's probably one of the reasons he's been patient with Garrett. I dont buy all that "he loves Garrett as a person & wants to still believe in him" talk. Finding a winning HC who can put up with JJ's ego may not be an easy task.
If I remember right, Sean Payton was next in line after Wade Phillips, but he opted to go to the Saints (post Katrina, which wasnt an easy move for his family) because he didnt think he could co-exist with JJ.
No you're right... after Parcells. He was on Parcells staff.
Quote:
but how is Garrett holding them back, specifically in your all's opinion?
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
So in the case of Dallas, where there is a significant amount of individual talent, the record is not the fault of the head coach. However, for the Giants, who have a dearth of individual talent, the record is all Shurmur's fault (not that I think Shurmur's a good HC). Just sayin', why should we judge Garrett any differently than Shurmur is being judged?
Sad fact...Garrett can thank the NY Football Giants for 33% of his wins this year.
Do you have an answer to my question?
Dak is brutal on third d
Dak is brutal with any sort of pressure around him
Dak is terrible when he has to run for and pickup yards. Twice he came up short when he easily should have had the first down.
Instead of blaming the coach check out Daks footwork in anything less than a perfect pocket. You will see a guy who has no concept how to play in anything less than an ideal pocket. So many times yesterday the slightest pressure near him instead of sliding to avoid the pressure he either just tucks and runs or just throws the ball to any wr he can quickly. It’s either I have a clean pocket or I have to run. Never a thought about scrambling and resetting his feet. He is brutal and that is the hard truth about the Dallas offense.
Quote:
In comment 14695112 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
but how is Garrett holding them back, specifically in your all's opinion?
If its all just that he hasn't won anything or the big game then fine, but just wondered if anybody here had a more lasered-view.
So in the case of Dallas, where there is a significant amount of individual talent, the record is not the fault of the head coach. However, for the Giants, who have a dearth of individual talent, the record is all Shurmur's fault (not that I think Shurmur's a good HC). Just sayin', why should we judge Garrett any differently than Shurmur is being judged?
Sad fact...Garrett can thank the NY Football Giants for 33% of his wins this year.
Do you have an answer to my question?
It's been answered.
He has had one of the more talented rosters in the league for the past several seasons and he's won 1 playoff game in that time. If the talent is on the roster and they still can't win, there is no one left to blame but the HC and his staff. No other specifics are needed.
This, and the offense has went back to its conservative roots after that Jets loss. Clear as day, instead of blaming himself for his team coming out flat as fuck, beat up against an inferior opponent getting their QB back after what is essentially a lost season because he got Mono on the road, he dips back to what is comfortable for him. A smart coach is able to show his team what they are walking into in that Jets game. They played that first half like all they had to do was show up to win.
1) Conservatism/timidity. This one came to a head after he kicked a field goal to reduce the deficit from seven to four against New England. Fairly or not, Garrett is viewed as a "play the percentages" coach who doesn't even have a firm grasp of the actual percentages.
2) Lack of team discipline. I'm not sure how the off-field stuff lands on Garrett. If the Joneses draft headcases, and sign headcases as free agents, the headcases are going to do headcase stuff outside the lines.
3) Finding ways to lose. This is the killer, and it's closely related to #2. The Jet game may have been the beginning of the end for Jason Garrett, because Dallas dominated for most of the game, and they didn't even turn the ball over. They simply couldn't get out of the hole they dug early. They tried to repeat this pattern against the Giants, but failed because the Giants wouldn't accept the gift.
The Cowboys are a juggernaut between the 20s, and when they win, they usually win big: their narrowest victory was 8 points, and they have led by at least two TDs in the fourth quarter of all six wins. That probably leads fans to conclude the team is talent laden, rightly or wrongly. Dallas is 0-4 in close games. That doesn't reflect well on the head coach, though it's a small sample and three of those games were against title contenders. Again, the Jet game stands out, and not in a good way.
...the Giants would be very grateful to have their "problems."
Their problems are fixable in the last third of this season.
Our problems will stretch for a decade, if not more.
How do we know that Garrett and his coaching staff have maximized the talent on the roster? Is Prescott really that good or has Garrett put him in a position to succeed?
Cowboy fans should be careful what they ask for....getting a new coach is no easy task and Garrett and his staff have them competitive every year. I would welcome that staff based on the last five plus years.
I just see a team that is typically pretty damn competitive, has won the NFCE several times in the last few years and is able to develop a lot of talent on the field no matter whey have come from.
Dallas is not exactly a place that has low expectations though...
I just see a team that is typically pretty damn competitive, has won the NFCE several times in the last few years and is able to develop a lot of talent on the field no matter whey have come from.
Dallas is not exactly a place that has low expectations though...
I agree. Personally I think that you can't have a talented team with out good coaching...kids rarely show up from college already "talented". Look at the players that left New England...they almost always play down a level.
...the Giants would be very grateful to have their "problems."
Their problems are fixable in the last third of this season.
Our problems will stretch for a decade, if not more.
I don't know about that, how are these problems fixable when this is who your head coach fundamentally is. They have yet to beat a good team this season with a few of those games taking place at home. And its the same story in every loss, their loaded offense doesn't put up points. This isn't like us, where we are just looking for a perennial playoff births right now. Its an organization that has a pretty stacked roster who drafted a decent QB in the 4th round effectively saving 30 million in cap space. All the talk was about the Eagles before the season, but I always thought it was Dallas that had legit SB odds. Eagles are old as fuck, no surprise half their roster is injured.
I wouldn't want either but if I had to pick between them I would take Garrett 6 ways from Sunday.
Isn’t that the definition of coaching. Maximizing the performance of the talent. Isn’t that just what Garrett hasn’t done.
Dak is brutal on third d
Dak is brutal with any sort of pressure around him
Dak is terrible when he has to run for and pickup yards. Twice he came up short when he easily should have had the first down.
Instead of blaming the coach check out Daks footwork in anything less than a perfect pocket. You will see a guy who has no concept how to play in anything less than an ideal pocket. So many times yesterday the slightest pressure near him instead of sliding to avoid the pressure he either just tucks and runs or just throws the ball to any wr he can quickly. It’s either I have a clean pocket or I have to run. Never a thought about scrambling and resetting his feet. He is brutal and that is the hard truth about the Dallas offense.
What to the BBI experts think of this. I’m not football savvy enough to evaluate QB play at this level. Generally think Dak is pretty darn good. Is he really a coach killer.
He’s a guy that for whatever reason doesn’t seem like he can get over the hump. I hope he’s given a nice fat extension.
Quote:
Kicker misses 2 chip shots.
Dak is brutal on third d
Dak is brutal with any sort of pressure around him
Dak is terrible when he has to run for and pickup yards. Twice he came up short when he easily should have had the first down.
Instead of blaming the coach check out Daks footwork in anything less than a perfect pocket. You will see a guy who has no concept how to play in anything less than an ideal pocket. So many times yesterday the slightest pressure near him instead of sliding to avoid the pressure he either just tucks and runs or just throws the ball to any wr he can quickly. It’s either I have a clean pocket or I have to run. Never a thought about scrambling and resetting his feet. He is brutal and that is the hard truth about the Dallas offense.
What to the BBI experts think of this. I’m not football savvy enough to evaluate QB play at this level. Generally think Dak is pretty darn good. Is he really a coach killer.
That's really the definition of coach killer. Clearly has talent and always looks just good enough to keep him under contract. Never wins the big game. Always makes mistakes at the worst possible time. Who doesn't think Cowboys arw better if a healthy Romo is behind center? Just my dopey opinion but I think Prescott is holding that team back. Although I guess one could argue a better coach would do more to mask his weaknesses, and build an offense that he could be more consistent in.