They were undermanned today, but hung with Green Bay for a while. I thought guys on both sides made good plays today, despite the schemes on both sides putting them at a disadvantage.
Let Eli finish the year out as Coach. Move Bethea to dB coach. Jessie armstead as dcoordinator. Taney as offensive coordinator. Deossie can be special teams coach.
A lot of fans feel that coaching has much impact on the players. Just how bad can a bad coaching staff make a roster (a young roster at that) look? How much does the coaching cloud the picture on what players you have?
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
We are the worst coaches team in the NFL. I honestly don’t even think it’s close.
That being said, the roster is a disaster also.
We have no pass rushers and no young pass rushers with potential.
Same with both offensive tackle positions.
Same with the Center position.
Same with the linebacker position outside of Connelly.
All the young corners are huge question marks.
We need at least 1 legit WR1.
The tight ends are huge question marks (either bc of injury or talent)
The kicker has been awful
The safeties are dreadful.
We have a good young QB and RB. A good young WR. A couple of good young defensive players and serviceable guards.
That’s it. This is the worst Giants team I’ve ever seen from top to bottom.
They were undermanned today, but hung with Green Bay for a while. I thought guys on both sides made good plays today, despite the schemes on both sides putting them at a disadvantage.
There's a name for this disease, it's called Overly Optimistic Knicksfanitis - that's where the fan misjudges the opposing team's lack of respect for your team and subsequent initial playing down to their level. It's easily diagnosed by watching for the moment where the opposing team figures 'ok, break time is over, time to put this thing away' - which usually happens in the early to mid third quarter.
They were undermanned today, but hung with Green Bay for a while. I thought guys on both sides made good plays today, despite the schemes on both sides putting them at a disadvantage.
They only hung with Green Bay because Green Bay was shooting themselves in the foot on defense. Once they adjusted it was all she wrote.
I think there are some pieces that can be built around. Â
We have a RB, QB, 3 good receivers when healthy. A good TE if he can stay in the field and a rookie TE that looks promising. 2 guards that can play. On D we have a young secondary with promise. Golden if resigned can play. Connect was a good pick. Peppers can play. We have a Good DT group if we change to a 4-3 again. The cupboard is not bare, but they need a lot of pieces.
A lot of fans feel that coaching has much impact on the players. Just how bad can a bad coaching staff make a roster (a young roster at that) look? How much does the coaching cloud the picture on what players you have?
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
But I think a solid core is there. A good off-season and they can look like a completely different team in 20.
The key will be getting the right coach.
What solid core? They are a total disaster at every key position outside of QB.
The core is Daniel Jones. That's it.
This. If we were to get rid of the Chris Mara/Gettleman/Shurmur regime along with all the scouts and bring in a new regime, I wouldn't be mad if they traded anyone on the roster. Even Barkley. And if they felt Burrow was better than Jones and wanted to Rosen Jones - I wouldn't feel too badly about it.
A lot of fans feel that coaching has much impact on the players. Just how bad can a bad coaching staff make a roster (a young roster at that) look? How much does the coaching cloud the picture on what players you have?
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
It's not that at all - people don't discount the effect that coaching has on players, in particular the scheme.
It's that this team doesn't execute on basic plays. Dropped passes, missed tackles, blown assignments. You need a coach to put guys in the right position, but at the same time good players who are poorly coached will at least flash on occasion. Right now, there's no evidence of that.
It's not just the coaching. It's a poorly assembled roster with some glaring weak points and some guys who just aren't very good. In addition, people are more wishful than realistic on the part that some of these players (in particular the later round picks) are going to play going forward.
A lot of fans feel that coaching has much impact on the players. Just how bad can a bad coaching staff make a roster (a young roster at that) look? How much does the coaching cloud the picture on what players you have?
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
It's not that at all - people don't discount the effect that coaching has on players, in particular the scheme.
It's that this team doesn't execute on basic plays. Dropped passes, missed tackles, blown assignments. You need a coach to put guys in the right position, but at the same time good players who are poorly coached will at least flash on occasion. Right now, there's no evidence of that.
It's not just the coaching. It's a poorly assembled roster with some glaring weak points and some guys who just aren't very good. In addition, people are more wishful than realistic on the part that some of these players (in particular the later round picks) are going to play going forward.
Losing affects trams physically and mentally. The question is, what is the main reason for them being this bad? Well, since players take time to progress, a young team will have plenty of mistakes, but you're looking for progression, other than Slayton there doesn't seem to be progression, in fact it looks like players have regressed. Shurmur is proven to be a poor coach, So he goes first in my opinion. Gettleman is still an incomplete to me since I want to see his roster with competent coaching. Now it could certainly be both, but I have seen more evidence of it being Shurmur Gettleman at this point.
i dont think the roster is as shit as everyone here does.
We have a very young team and there are some players who have shown the ability to contribute.
i think golden, connelly, peppers, lawerence and williams is a solid defense, but obviously we need more. chase young will be a huge addition here... i also think love, baker and beal could be nice players in time. they are in their first years(i know beal isnt, but this is his first real PT). i also dont think carter and ximenes will be bad as backup, rotational, situaional pass rushers with golden(resign) and young(draft)
i think on offense the OGs arent bad. barkley is very good. the WRs arent bad with shep, tate and slayton. I also like engram but he has had a hard time staying healthy.
to say you wouldnt care if everyone was gone except jones is insane. barkley is STILL a great player. the OL seriously has looked like dogshit this season. not really sure how they digressed, but it seems they have.
RE: I think there are some pieces that can be built around. Â
We have a RB, QB, 3 good receivers when healthy. A good TE if he can stay in the field and a rookie TE that looks promising. 2 guards that can play. On D we have a young secondary with promise. Golden if resigned can play. Connect was a good pick. Peppers can play. We have a Good DT group if we change to a 4-3 again. The cupboard is not bare, but they need a lot of pieces.
A lot of fans feel that coaching has much impact on the players. Just how bad can a bad coaching staff make a roster (a young roster at that) look? How much does the coaching cloud the picture on what players you have?
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
I couldn’t agree more. This is not a bad roster. The team is very young; and the combination of the a poor coaching staff and a poor offensive line has a lot to do with poor play. I think Daniel Jones will be fine. Saquon Barkley will be fine. Slayton looks promising. Just fix the offensive line. On the defensive side, I think the DBs need to grow together. Right now, I think they are being schooled by the veterans. Only time will tell, but I have faith in the future of these DBs and they will learn. The DBs are also not helped by the lack of pass rush, which is horrendous. We need edge rusher’s. Chase Young would definitely help and a good start.
With Britt. I think we have our QB and running back. Our receivers are good enough but lacking a true number 1. Our guards are good enough but we need tackles and a center.
. I like our defense line.. IL’s are awful but I liked what I saw in Connell so we need to add another starter. I like golden and if some how we can add Young then with Carter we would have a good rotation. Peppers was playing well and we have 4 rookie DB’s that have real potential.. Betha is awful and Love is a wildcard to me.. it would be a huge plus if he could be out starting FS..
Coaching sucks and Shurmur wasn’t wrong when he said we were historical young but was dumb for saying it
OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
the WRs are not below average at all.
also nobody is deflecting blame to shurmur. the dude did an end around to a practice squad player today....he ran penny on a 3rd and 1. the dude isnt a good
OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
It's pretty simple - it's the 'Eli above the team crowd' - Gettleman can do no wrong in their eyes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they hold Shurmur accountable for the latest benching.
OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
the WRs are not below average at all.
also nobody is deflecting blame to shurmur. the dude did an end around to a practice squad player today....he ran penny on a 3rd and 1. the dude isnt a good
No shit he’s not good- the coach is awful
The op claims he likes the roster- the roster sucks
OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
It's pretty simple - it's the 'Eli above the team crowd' - Gettleman can do no wrong in their eyes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they hold Shurmur accountable for the latest benching.
Guessing on one's intentions isn't typically a good idea.
OL sucks. No pass rushers. Terrible safeties and LBs.
okay
1. golden is a solid rusher, he has NOTHING on the other end. that will change come april
2. connelly looked to be solid before the injury. him alongside lets say a guy like shobert(FA signing) would be really good.
3.OL does suck and this is going to be numer 1 thing to address this offseason after taking young in first
RE: RE: The reason Britt won’t throw DG under the bus as well Â
Probably a six win team with a lot of room for growth upward because of youth. Shurmur and his staff fucking suck. Hal Hunter?!?!aAre you fucking kidding me with that guy?!?
What’s to like about it? No coach could win with this roster.
Strong rookie class outside of Baker. Barkley. And what?
We have the worst front 7 in football. Not one top shelf talent on defense. Every unit has problems and a severe lack of talent. The LB unit is the worst in football. Pass rush? Awful. Bottom of the league talent.
OL is below average.
Thankfully, we have Jones. He gives us some hope but the roster needs to be flipped. Long road to average. When they get there, very few on this roster will be on the team.
Jones
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, I like you, I actually like your optimism, so don't change! ;)
Unfortunately I can't travel this road with you. There are 8 players (exactly half) of the one you listed, that IMO are not quality NFL starters and wont become one in the future.
but I think the damage has been done under Shurmur, the team is very young and is losing confidence.
I was against it a few weeks ago but a new voice is needed to correct, this pertains to offense and defense.
Just like SF 2 years ago there is a nice core here on defense. A pass rushing monster like Chase Young or Clowney would bring an identity. If the Cowboys do a full change in staff I would love to hire Kris Richards at DC. Richards is the former DC from Seattle and was instrumental in the formation of the Legion of Boom.
Outside of Barkley The offense has alot of 2 tier position players, these guys will only get better if Jones elevates to the next level. To execute this, I don't believe we need another re-haul on oline, I prefer and value a offense that gells so I would like to see the team target an upgrade at RT only.
Overall, the roster is better than it has been in several years. There are still disaster areas but the OVERALL talent level is coming back somewhat. However, it is being held back by the COACHING.
One factor that definitely shows that coaching is the problem is some players who have done reasonably well elsewhere (Solder and Remmers as an OT are the prime examples here, and at times Zeitler and Janoris Jenkins, too) look like garbage as G-men.
And going the other way, some guys who didn't do so well here (Weston Richburg, Marshall Newhouse, Landon Collins, Dwayne Harris, maybe Matt LaCosse when healthy and Nat Berhe and a couple others) look at least serviceable elsewhere.
The two coaching staffs since Coughlin was dismissed have absolutely sucked donkey balls. And that's on Mara, not Gettleman.
There isn't a single player on this team to whom I would give another Â
to bang the drum for his point of view. 1. Mara ain’t selling and 2. He ain’t turning the entire organization over to a HC that will tell him and a GM to get lost. Not happening, so the question is: how does this get fixed within the constructs of how the Giants do business?
RE: There isn't a single player on this team to whom I would give another Â
to bang the drum for his point of view. 1. Mara ain’t selling and 2. He ain’t turning the entire organization over to a HC that will tell him and a GM to get lost. Not happening, so the question is: how does this get fixed within the constructs of how the Giants do business?
In those constructs? Well, it's been 8 years and they're moving backwards. So - what do you consider the two Mara's life expectancy to be, and we can work backwards from there.
but there are pieces to build with. The problem is they didn't start tearing down until mid-season last year. It doesn't matter who the GM is, they need more time to restock (pending the restock not being completely blown). With the dead cap being relieved and more high draft picks the future can start to look brighter..just not with this coaching staff, you know it's bad when the announcers say how the coach should be calling plays..Shurmur is a career position coach/coordinator. I'm not as done with Gettleman as most but he really needs to hit it out of the park this offseason in FA and hiring a competent coach or it'll be like this for an extra few years.
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
There's talent on every single roster in the NFL. The Giants have picked top 10 multiple times in the last handful of years. They've picked top 6 2 consecutive. They had 3 first round picks last year. Of course there is "talent"
But we have a real QB to build around. One reason I only want Shurmur axed and a coordinator elevated to HC is I'd hate to see all these young guys go through a total overhaul and change process. Makes it tough to have a winning season next year. Then again we may not really have an option right?
My gut tells me we go and get an NFL coordinator as our next HC. But how often does a new HC keep the previous regime's coaches and system? Never!
Shurmur just isn't head coach material and his record reflects that. I mean, we do have a shot at the #1 pick in the draft if the Bengals and Miami can win again and we lose out. SMH.
But we have poor overall personnell. I'm really hoping Saquon Barkley finishes strong and shows his injury held him back more than anything else. The vision issues we are seeing now have me gritting my teeth.
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
Those guys actually contributed.
And those guys were on really good rosters where they could contribute.
Did they MAKE the team talented? No. But they contributed. Latimer can do the same and he has had plenty of good plays, including today. We need depth guys like that. I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
I don't know if you realize what a difference that is from there to here, but he needs a little time to develop but he has some raw talent.
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
Look at Justin Tuck's rookie numbers. Also a third round pick. Good thing we didn't give up on him.
Same with Osi Umenyiora. Raw talent guys that we were patient with. We made a living off guys like this for a while.
Tuck was a highly touted player from a premiere program
who slipped to the 3rd round due to injury.
Osi had sick measurables but came from a small school. Osi was blocked by Strahan and Kenny Holmes, so he rotated in and had limited opportunity. Ditto for Tuck later with Strahan and Osi.
Ximines is close to neither. He has all the opportunity to make some kind of impact, and he's been nowhere to be found.
Look, you're going to counter me at every turn and never give an inch Â
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
Also, time for us to go back to a 4-3 with the new staff.... Â
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
You can like the roster - but you're not basing it on anything but wishes. Ximines has been invisible this year, and he's not the only one.
Ogletree has been horrendous - and they pay him $10M a year, on top of trading a 4th and a 6th for him.
Winning teams don't do this. That's why the Giants look as bad as they are - they're a poorly managed, poorly coached collection of misfit parts. Inefficient use of resources has made this roster uneven and extremely weak at more than one position. That's on the GM as much as the coach, and until this team gets serious about revamping the way they do business from the top to the bottom of the house, all Giants fans will be able to do is dream of a winning season.
RE: Look, you're going to counter me at every turn and never give an inch Â
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
The Browns are a perfect example of the difference - they do have some talent. And at times they do flash and their players will put together a string of good plays and show some impressive individual performances.
You don't see that out of the Giants, because they're bereft of talent.
RE: RE: Look, you're going to counter me at every turn and never give an inch Â
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
I get the thinking on Ogletree, I just think with the right guys around him he'd look much better. Like the offensive line, lacking a superstar, all pro type, the LB's need to function as a unit. Ogletree isn't a one man wrecking crew, but I do think he could be a nice piece to a unit.
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
RE: That's a recurring theme to your thinking Britt Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
It seems to me that a coaches job is to instill confidence in young players by putting them in positions to succeed. This is often done by recognizing where their talent lies and reinforcing it through tailored schemes.
Our coaches are ruining careers here, they are not inspiring, they are not pro-active or even reactive...they simply call plays with no sense of the flow of the game or of situational success.
Its hard to tell how good our roster is...it will take a better coach to assess that.
we need A LOT of guys. That's the situation we were left with, which Dave Gettlman walked into. A LOT of guys were needed.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
You repeating I think there should be an All Pro at every position isn't going to magically make it something I've said. That's a weird, nonsensical thing to repeat.
Coming into today the Giants:
- Had one player in the top 50 in the NFL in catches - TE Evan Engram
- The highest WR was 70th - Golden Tate
- The Giants didn't have a WR in the top 60 in yards, Slayton and Tate were both lower than 60th
- At 48th in the league, Slayton leads the Giants in yards per target
The Giants have fragile WR in Shepard, an aging reliable but inefficient player in Tate, and a rookie with upside in Slayton.
Latimer is a fringe NFL player who's a risk to not be in the league.
Enough with the "clean house" bullshit from some of you posters Â
We just cleaned house and part of why we are 2-10 right now is because the massive amount of dead cap space that has resulted from cleaning house. Clean house again and we'll still be in this situation.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
We just cleaned house and part of why we are 2-10 right now is because the massive amount of dead cap space that has resulted from cleaning house. Clean house again and we'll still be in this situation.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I agree, Shurmur has shown to be a "loser" as a HC. Some guys have it, some don't. He is a good OC or Quality Offense guy type but he clearly doesn't command a team.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
We just cleaned house and part of why we are 2-10 right now is because the massive amount of dead cap space that has resulted from cleaning house. Clean house again and we'll still be in this situation.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I agree, Shurmur has shown to be a "loser" as a HC. Some guys have it, some don't. He is a good OC or Quality Offense guy type but he clearly doesn't command a team.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
RE: RE: That's a recurring theme to your thinking Britt Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
For a failure this colossal the guy who hired him Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
You said the Giants are a team of jags, which includes players in their first year. I am not sure why you felt compelled to reply with snark.
RE: RE: RE: That's a recurring theme to your thinking Britt Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
Quote:
Alec Ogletree led the Giants and all NFL linebackers with five interceptions in 2018. He was the only player in the league to score twice on interception returns and is the only linebacker in Giants history to score two touchdowns on interceptions in a season.
I'm willing to give Ogletree another season, hopefully a move back to the 4-3, and some pieces around him before I make my judgement.
RE: For a failure this colossal the guy who hired him Â
It stinks
The WRs are DGs- they aren’t good
The Secondary is DGs - it’s not good - but at least it’s young
The linebackers are DGs- they stink
The coaching staff is DGs- it stinks
In summary - he stinks - it’s his own shitburger- he should own it- he likely won’t - let’s hope they get lucky in the offseason hitting on coach and picks and signings
we need A LOT of guys. That's the situation we were left with, which Dave Gettlman walked into. A LOT of guys were needed.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
A LOT of guys were needed because Gettleman blew the self-assessment of this team in the very worst way.
He went half-hearted at first, signing some throwaway FAs in an attempt to compete in year 1, before realizing how in over his head he was and cleaning house. He went for a scorched earth rebuild that had him trade away just about anything worth half a damn. Then, he stuck with a QB who had obviously lost a step, and retained him at a pretty penny.
He took the resources he obtained in the tear down and put together an incomplete roster with replacements who weren't as good as the guys he was moving on from in the first place.
Again - worth mentioning, that the team was 11-5 in 2016.
Had they bothered interviewing a few GM candidates, the Giants brass might have had some other opinions on what needed to be done to base their next steps on. Instead, they went for a token outsider (Riddick) and the obvious hire in Gettleman. What followed next should surprise no one.
RE: RE: RE: RE: That's a recurring theme to your thinking Britt Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
You said the Giants are a team of jags, which includes players in their first year. I am not sure why you felt compelled to reply with snark.
Sorry, but you picked an odd post to reply to if that was your point.
Maybe the rookies aren't JAGs - right now, they're not even playing to the level of JAGs, with the exception of Jones and Slayton they're not even playing like pro football players. If the assertion is that Gettleman deserves more time simply because he has a lot of rookies playing, I'd suggest that it was his stupid idea to nuke the team in the first place and end up in that scenario.
we need A LOT of guys. That's the situation we were left with, which Dave Gettlman walked into. A LOT of guys were needed.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
A LOT of guys were needed because Gettleman blew the self-assessment of this team in the very worst way.
He went half-hearted at first, signing some throwaway FAs in an attempt to compete in year 1, before realizing how in over his head he was and cleaning house. He went for a scorched earth rebuild that had him trade away just about anything worth half a damn. Then, he stuck with a QB who had obviously lost a step, and retained him at a pretty penny.
He took the resources he obtained in the tear down and put together an incomplete roster with replacements who weren't as good as the guys he was moving on from in the first place.
Again - worth mentioning, that the team was 11-5 in 2016.
Had they bothered interviewing a few GM candidates, the Giants brass might have had some other opinions on what needed to be done to base their next steps on. Instead, they went for a token outsider (Riddick) and the obvious hire in Gettleman. What followed next should surprise no one.
Which GM candidates? Dorsey?
They actually asked to interview Dorsey because it was too late Â
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
you could also say the talent gap is so wide that it's difficult to evaluate the coaching.
It’s a mess in reality. But there are a good number of players who appear to be talented, not being out in position to succeed either because of scheme or fundamentals. That’s on the coaches. When Carl Banks points out in post game that the same mistakes are being made 11 games in - it’s a coaching issue. Gettleman May also need to go, but that’s far from clear.
Unfortunately, the problems run deeper than that. I have no idea how bad DG is after a short stint in Carolina and 2 years here, but I've seen enough mistakes to feel confident that he isn't very good. The Leonard Williams deal was it for me, you guys are free to see it another way. However I see no reason to hire a new coach with a lame duck 68 year old GM with a thin resume at the helm. It's taking the easy way out, which seems to be the pattern the Giants have exhibited over the last decade so it's most likely the way they proceed. I'm ok with fans being overly optimistic about the Giants roster, I'm just sick of Giants brass operating like optimistic fans. They won't get out of this hole until they do.
that I like a decent amount of players on the roster, and think they are pieces to build around.
50% of the posters on this thread seemed to understand that right away without clarification.
Got it. Above you listed 16 players. Would it be fair to say those are the players you think are the pieces to build around?
And if so, is it fair to say then you don't like the other 2/3 of the roster?
On offense you didn't list 3/5 of the starting offensive line, you didn't list the top 2 TEs, you didn't list one of the starting WRs.
On defense you didn't list the starting defensive tackle, you didn't one of the starting outside linebackers, the starting free safety, one of the starting corners, or the slot corner.
It kind of seems like you think there are some good players and some young players, but that the Giants need about 10 new starters.
They were undermanned today, but hung with Green Bay for a while. I thought guys on both sides made good plays today, despite the schemes on both sides putting them at a disadvantage.
This logic is so twisted and flawed. Normally when a team is undermanned and "hung in" you chalk that up to GOOD coaching. Instead they are undermanned (enough for them to lose by anyone's estimation) and the SCHEMES are holding them back.
Get a grip. You are so hopelessly hopeful that things are better than they actually are that you will push whatever narrative minimizes our problems the most and gets us to competing quickest no matter how foolishly optimistic.
In case you haven't been watching all this the only common thread in this shitty run we've been having is fans saying things like "it's just Reese or MacAdoo or TC" or "DG overhauled our whole scouting system" one or two sacrificial lambs the bad eggs you know causing all the problems. Guess what. Problems have gotten worse despite us rooting out the bad eggs so bravely.
You like the roster? Great. Why should anyone care about that? This nonsense post i'm responding to shows how far you will go. This is all Shurmur's fault? What an original and non-Giants front office propaganda serving thought!
get your eyes or head checked if you “like” this team though. Also it should be very clear to everyone at this point we need major changes so yeah people like you attempting to fall over themselves to make this rosier aren’t helping.
yeah, I said the coach was a bum and needed to be fired tomorrow. Â
I actually care less and less about the team because I don’t have high expectations of this turning around soon.
I don’t think people like you should be spouting BS about this roster being any good and increasing the probability that fans don’t demand change. People like you are acting like there are two perspectives one where this isn’t a complete mess top to bottom and one where Shurmur is the issue and when we get new coaches this roster will show us it’s talent!
Also I get why Giants management wants to push this narrative that Shurmur is preventing this roster from showing what is can really do. They don’t want to have to commit to real change at the top. What’s in it for you?
It stinks
The WRs are DGs- they aren’t good
The Secondary is DGs - it’s not good - but at least it’s young
The linebackers are DGs- they stink
The coaching staff is DGs- it stinks
In summary - he stinks - it’s his own shitburger- he should own it- he likely won’t - let’s hope they get lucky in the offseason hitting on coach and picks and signings
This
The coaching on this team is so bad that Saquon Barkley rarely Â
flashes. Think about that for a second. If he can't, why are even solid NFL players going to flash. I've rewatched the all 22 on 4 different games and I came away with the same impression each time. Is PS trying to make it harder on his players to succeed purposely? He leaves me scratching my head all the time.
People are cut out for being the boss while others are more suited to be a worker bee. Shurmur is in the latter camp. He’s a good coordinator but a mess as a manager.
Every game I look at this team and say they can't be that bad. A lot of these guys are either 1) guys who had success other places ,or 2) young guys with talent who are improving.
Our schemes suck, our motivation sucks, and we are continually putting players in the wrong positions to succeed. We are always outcoached.
Every game I look at this team and say they can't be that bad. A lot of these guys are either 1) guys who had success other places ,or 2) young guys with talent who are improving.
Our schemes suck, our motivation sucks, and we are continually putting players in the wrong positions to succeed. We are always outcoached.
The motivation sucks? Weren't these the 'good players' - the ones with the right 'culture'? You know, the ones Gettleman described as 'hating to lose'?
Do they only hate to lose when they're properly motivated? If so, maybe they need additional criteria for their draft picks? In addition to 'hates to lose', add 'self-starter'.
I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
You repeating I think there should be an All Pro at every position isn't going to magically make it something I've said. That's a weird, nonsensical thing to repeat.
Coming into today the Giants:
- Had one player in the top 50 in the NFL in catches - TE Evan Engram
- The highest WR was 70th - Golden Tate
- The Giants didn't have a WR in the top 60 in yards, Slayton and Tate were both lower than 60th
- At 48th in the league, Slayton leads the Giants in yards per target
The Giants have fragile WR in Shepard, an aging reliable but inefficient player in Tate, and a rookie with upside in Slayton.
Latimer is a fringe NFL player who's a risk to not be in the league.
Some fans are just blinded by complete big blue homerism. This roster stinks and they need to make big moves in FA and get some good damn draft picks or we'll suck again next year. Thus the roster sucks. It needs an infusion of big time talent. Without making some huge FA moves and getting an impact player like Young-- this team will stink again next year.
However I believe they can make the moves to be decent next year but I have extremely low confidence in the GM that he is capable of doing so. He needs to hit on quite a few FA's instead of going about his usual more-than-likely blundering. .
Every game I look at this team and say they can't be that bad. A lot of these guys are either 1) guys who had success other places ,or 2) young guys with talent who are improving.
Our schemes suck, our motivation sucks, and we are continually putting players in the wrong positions to succeed. We are always outcoached.
The motivation sucks? Weren't these the 'good players' - the ones with the right 'culture'? You know, the ones Gettleman described as 'hating to lose'?
Do they only hate to lose when they're properly motivated? If so, maybe they need additional criteria for their draft picks? In addition to 'hates to lose', add 'self-starter'.
Is controversial, since you can ultimately find several players to like on every roster in the league.
I don't see how it paints us as being in a good situation, however.
I think that's the issue though - it's not 'are there any good players on this roster' - he "likes" the roster (in totality) and thinks the coach is a bum (to blame for the poor performance).
There's enough blame to go around on this one. The easiest explanation for a team that should be tied for the worst in the league is that both the players and the coaches suck.
is the implication that this some aspects of the Giants are going well, and that all that's required is for Shurmur to be excised like a problematic cyst on an otherwise healthy body. I read it as, "Once we replace Shurmur this project can continue to move forward."
Jones
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, the following guys on your list are not starters for a competitive team..
Zeitler
Latimer
Smith
Ximines
Ogletree
Baker
Oh come on...
1) Not all of those guys have to be starters, they can simply be promising players who provide adequate depth on winning team.
2) Zeitler up until this year was considered borderline pro bowl material. Even if he is not playing well I don't give up on him. He has proven that he can be starting-caliber OL in the NFL and that is hard to find these days. I say look at other factors (i.e. Shurmur, Hal Hunter, the rest of the OL, the culture in general, etc.) as reasons for Zeitler's poor play before just writing him off as a pure bust all of a sudden.
3) Ximines and Baker are rookies. I don't think we can write them off so quickly either. Ximines has flashed at times. And Baker was a 1st round pick and his primary strength is man coverage and Bettcher has him playing a lot of zone and he's struggling in his first year in the NFL. I think both of those guys could go on to be quality starters in the right scheme, with the right coaching staff, the right supporting cast, etc. We can't write the book on these young guys just yet, they could very well go to another team and become an all-pro (we've seen that happen before with players leaving bad Giants teams).
'I actually like the roster, but Shurmur is a bum' Â
Essentially I agree with you. Rather than say 'I like the roster', I'd say I see improvement with the talent base and the direction the roster is heading.
DG should absolutely stay in place but Shurmur must go. Any new HC should be given control of his coaching staff although they should listen to recommendations from the FO about current coaches.
RE: The reason Britt won’t throw DG under the bus as well Â
Is because that would be admitting he was wrong about a bunch of things.
It's not just that.
Gettleman is tied to the glory years, so he has Britt's loyalty and admiration right out of the box. Shurmur is not connected to the TC/Eli era at all, so Britt can actually view him objectively.
RE: RE: The reason Britt won’t throw DG under the bus as well Â
typically tied to an overly optimistic view on what could happen. The reason why so many new businesses fail. Right now there are a bunch of guys that could be something.
Guys like Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence right now they have yet to prove that they're even JAG level. But its easy to project that they will soon surpass that and become good players.
Right now, the Giants have a bottom three roster in the league. Maybe Miami and Cinci are worse. Do we want the man who got us here shopping for the rest? I do not.
typically tied to an overly optimistic view on what could happen. The reason why so many new businesses fail. Right now there are a bunch of guys that could be something.
Guys like Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence right now they have yet to prove that they're even JAG level. But its easy to project that they will soon surpass that and become good players.
Right now, the Giants have a bottom three roster in the league. Maybe Miami and Cinci are worse. Do we want the man who got us here shopping for the rest? I do not.
Jim, this is completely spot on. The assumption all the unproven guys will succeed is illogical. History says several will fall short.
New doesn't by definition mean better. They are only better when they prove it.
Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
When you draft players high they ARE building blocks whether they play like it or not out of the box, thus the time needed to see if they are the player you hoped for when drafted.
Players in later rounds are typically added to be depth or contributors who may take longer to show their worth.
Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
Crick, it does seem as though there are several posters who not only are assuming those players will improve, but even some who act as though those players are all but assured of reaching the most promising projection of their potential.
How else is one supposed to read the dozens of posts that talk about how great DG's drafts have been? The only rational view of his drafts so far is that any grade at all is an incomplete. But that's not the way it's positioned by at least a handful of fans here on BBI who dismiss each DG misstep as a justifiable one-off event, but somehow see a positive trend where there are not yet any results to support that view.
Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
When you draft players high they ARE building blocks whether they play like it or not out of the box, thus the time needed to see if they are the player you hoped for when drafted.
Players in later rounds are typically added to be depth or contributors who may take longer to show their worth.
That's fair. So with a roster with a significant number of players that fit that bill, would that be a roster to like (assuming that means happy with and confident in).
Or would that be closer to a roster to be hopeful for, but reasonably skeptical?
the premise of the thread is OP likes the roster.. Â
Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
Crick, it does seem as though there are several posters who not only are assuming those players will improve, but even some who act as though those players are all but assured of reaching the most promising projection of their potential.
How else is one supposed to read the dozens of posts that talk about how great DG's drafts have been? The only rational view of his drafts so far is that any grade at all is an incomplete. But that's not the way it's positioned by at least a handful of fans here on BBI who dismiss each DG misstep as a justifiable one-off event, but somehow see a positive trend where there are not yet any results to support that view.
Gator, I see your point.
From my view most Gettleman discussions are traveling on a two way road. One way is positive, one way is negative. Neither side cares to slow down enough to hear and discuss in a civil manner what each individual's thoughts are without injecting conclusions that may not have happened yet (like saying drafts are incomplete, you're right, they are incomplete).
I'd say in reality most of us are protecting our opinions to future conclusions without admitting that most likely we still have some road to travel to get to those conclusions.
Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
When you draft players high they ARE building blocks whether they play like it or not out of the box, thus the time needed to see if they are the player you hoped for when drafted.
Players in later rounds are typically added to be depth or contributors who may take longer to show their worth.
That's fair. So with a roster with a significant number of players that fit that bill, would that be a roster to like (assuming that means happy with and confident in).
Or would that be closer to a roster to be hopeful for, but reasonably skeptical?
Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
RE: RE: The reason Britt won’t throw DG under the bus as well Â
Is because that would be admitting he was wrong about a bunch of things.
It's not just that.
Gettleman is tied to the glory years, so he has Britt's loyalty and admiration right out of the box. Shurmur is not connected to the TC/Eli era at all, so Britt can actually view him objectively.
That's quite an assumption. Frankly, I just like Gettleman's philosophy. I also believe that this game is still won and lost in the by running the ball and rushing the passer. I actually liked the moves that he's made when he's made them, and I can see him trying to fulfill his plan. Have they all worked out? No. But I do like his ability to cut bait quickly rather than continue to try and force things.
I also like that he stated conviction about when/how to draft a QB, which according to many on BBI was the single biggest thing that had to be done. He stuck to his guns on what a QB should look like, and seeing Daniel Jones play I agree with his decision 100%.
As far Saquon goes, I look at what he did in Carolina drafting McCaffrey and was nailed to the wall for doing so, but that pick is looking pretty decent this year too.
At the end of the day, we got the stud RB AND the QB in subsequent drafts. I'm good with that. I'm good with Dexer Lawrence. I'm good with Will Hernandez. I can see what he's doing with those picks. I just like his process right now. That's it.
The ONLY tie to the glory years that I care about is the philosophy.
Only thing funnier than the OP's statement that he likes the roster Â
I also believe that this game is still won and lost in the by running the ball and rushing the passer. I actually liked the moves that he's made when he's made them, and I can see him trying to fulfill his plan. Have they all worked out? No. But I do like his ability to cut bait quickly rather than continue to try and force things.
Do you feel Gettleman has done a good job of acquiring players in the pursuit of a good run game? Has he succeeded at that?
Jones, Lawrence, Barkley, Hernandez, Connelly especially. Those 5 are hopefully 1/4 of our starting lineup for the next 5-10 years and Gettleman deserves credit for selecting them.
Williams, Hill, Tomlinson, Carter, Slayton, Engram, and all the DB's may or may not also be part of that core but at minimum are role players.
The coaching staff has done a terrible job turning what could be a competitive team into a doormat. Teams with worse talent and more injuries (Oakland, NYJ, Miami, Washington) are playing more competitively than we are. That is 100% on the coaching staff.
I agree, he looked good, but it was the smallest sample size imaginable and the guy will be coming back from an ACL reconstruction.
6 quarters and 3-4(?) preseason games, and a lot of what we saw looked a lot like his highlights from Wisconsin - the guy makes reads and has quickness to attack the backfield we hadn't seen in over a decade.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The reason Britt won’t throw DG under the bus as well Â
I also believe that this game is still won and lost in the by running the ball and rushing the passer. I actually liked the moves that he's made when he's made them, and I can see him trying to fulfill his plan. Have they all worked out? No. But I do like his ability to cut bait quickly rather than continue to try and force things.
Do you feel Gettleman has done a good job of acquiring players in the pursuit of a good run game? Has he succeeded at that?
It is really hard to tell because the coaching is piss poor. DG was the guy who hired him and his clown car of a staff so I'm leaning he can go to now. I won't be upset either way.
Yeah, when you (general) call somebody a pom pom waving pollyanna.... Â
that serves up whatever dish du jour ownership is selling (as if they are trying to con me and I'm some idiot for buying into it) rather than having the ability to be both optimistic and objective at the same time, yeah, that feels a little insulting.
And, since you're the one trying to pump up the roster of a 2-10 team, the burden of proof falls on you, I'm afraid.
Being shouted down rapid fire when you try to provide any burden of proof from thread to thread with the same things beaten to death gets a little exhausting.
At least we can all agree the coaching sucks.
RE: Quickness....hmmmm....nah, no way could that be impacted Â
Completely fair to have some doubt about how he comes back from injury, but in reference to Gettleman isn't it that he made the pick? Nobody can predict injuries. Dalvin Cook tore his ACL in game 4, was still a good pick even though it took him a while to come back.
RE: RE: Productive? What is ever productive about a message board? Â
And, since you're the one trying to pump up the roster of a 2-10 team, the burden of proof falls on you, I'm afraid.
Being shouted down rapid fire when you try to provide any burden of proof from thread to thread with the same things beaten to death gets a little exhausting.
At least we can all agree the coaching sucks.
If consensus is what you're after, you can just realize that objective and optimistic can't really share a bedroom for a franchise that has won 10 games in three years, especially with a GM from the owner's crony network who can't decide whether he's rebuilding or reloading for a playoff run.
I just don't think you can give Connelly any grade but Incomplete Â
He did look good in that brief stint, but that's it. I put zero stock into preseason performances.
Any draft pick will get an 'incomplete' until they produce over an extended enough period of time to warrant a 2nd contract or not. Jones is an incomplete right now despite playing twice as many games as Connelly but he looks good. Mayfield and Darnold are still incompletes in year 2. Any of our opinions are speculation - and that's what GM's do, they speculate that the guys they pick will pan out. Decisions get made based on speculation, not after the results are known.
Even after 6 quarters as you put it I'd be comfortable speculating that a healthy Connelly is a positive impact starting LB. The healthy part is a legitimate question going forward but I still credit DG for acquiring the 5 guys I mentioned because I'd be comfortable similarly speculating that they are all positive impact starters and in Connelly's case there was no way to predict he'd get hurt at the time he was selected other than it's the NFL and injuries happen.
are just as many gaps on the roster today compared to when Gettleman got his security pass two years ago. We have issues on the offensive line, receiver, pass rushing, linebackers, secondary and special teams. There are promising youngsters but also a bunch of unknowns.
Gettleman is a good college scout and some rookies and second year players have flashed; but so far does a piss poor job of managing a roster. He gets rid of talented players he inherited who he doesn’t bond with and brings in damaged goods who are supposed locker room champions who flat out suck. And he was involved in hiring Shurmur - probably because It’s Pat! would be humble and deferential to his ways of working.
So yeah Its Pat! Has gotta go but DG should be on the hot seat in 2020.
members of the Resume Dave Fan Club go study his "great drafts" in Carolina from 2013 to 2017.
My guess is members of the Resume Dave Fan Club in Charlotte really "liked" those drafts too. But that team was really built by Marty Hurney. Check out his drafts from 2002 - 2012 compared to Resume Dave's.
For example:
Julius Pepper, DeShaun Foster, Chris Gamble, Jordan Gross, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Ryan Kalil, Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, etc.
members of the Resume Dave Fan Club go study his "great drafts" in Carolina from 2013 to 2017.
My guess is members of the Resume Dave Fan Club in Charlotte really "liked" those drafts too. But that team was really built by Marty Hurney. Check out his drafts from 2002 - 2012 compared to Resume Dave's.
For example:
Julius Pepper, DeShaun Foster, Chris Gamble, Jordan Gross, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Ryan Kalil, Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, etc.
Haven't many of those guys been gone for years? Like Gettleman got rid of them or they were gone pre-DG? Browsing the best players on their current roster, many are gettleman picks starting with Mccaffrey no? Kawann Short, Trai Turner, Curtis Samuel, James Bradberry, Shaq Thompson.
In contrast 2 years later what do we (or the entire league) have left from Reese drafts those few years? Engram, Shepard, Tomlinson, and Apple?
Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
Crick, I applaud this new found temperance, self awareness, and diplomacy on your part.
But lets not pretend that you haven't been one of the leaders of the divisiveness here. In the past you have been very quick to call people names and use foul language rather than make a real point yourself. It seemed like you were taking your cues from another poster from your your state.
I wonder if this turn is because the state of the team has made your core positions regarding the Giants untenable to continue to defend, or if this is something more permanent. I hope for the latter, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would not be surprised with a return to past ways.
Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
Crick, I applaud this new found temperance, self awareness, and diplomacy on your part.
But lets not pretend that you haven't been one of the leaders of the divisiveness here. In the past you have been very quick to call people names and use foul language rather than make a real point yourself. It seemed like you were taking your cues from another poster from your your state.
I wonder if this turn is because the state of the team has made your core positions regarding the Giants untenable to continue to defend, or if this is something more permanent. I hope for the latter, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would not be surprised with a return to past ways.
Mcl, I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I don't remember the last time I used foul language or called anyone any name other than their handle, it's not my style.
Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
Crick, I applaud this new found temperance, self awareness, and diplomacy on your part.
But lets not pretend that you haven't been one of the leaders of the divisiveness here. In the past you have been very quick to call people names and use foul language rather than make a real point yourself. It seemed like you were taking your cues from another poster from your your state.
I wonder if this turn is because the state of the team has made your core positions regarding the Giants untenable to continue to defend, or if this is something more permanent. I hope for the latter, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would not be surprised with a return to past ways.
Mcl, I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I don't remember the last time I used foul language or called anyone any name other than their handle, it's not my style.
You've done it with me, more than once.
And you have certainly encouraged the other other poster to whom I am referring.
Again, I believe you are mistaken. I don't even cuss at Googs. I doubt I've even addressed you with any kind of attitude. We have probably responded to each other's posts under ten times. You and I don't typically converse.
You're boostering for Gettleman because he supposedly drafted the core of Carolina's current team.....the team that's 5-7 and has lost four straight, including most recently against the Redskins? Very strong endorsement there!
Again, I believe you are mistaken. I don't even cuss at Googs. I doubt I've even addressed you with any kind of attitude. We have probably responded to each other's posts under ten times. You and I don't typically converse.
I don't think you do cuss at me. Why the call out though?
Again, I believe you are mistaken. I don't even cuss at Googs. I doubt I've even addressed you with any kind of attitude. We have probably responded to each other's posts under ten times. You and I don't typically converse.
I don't think you do cuss at me. Why the call out though?
is why he has made no changes other than starting Jones. It would have been such an easy win if after the bye week gave Shula playcalling duties so he could focus on more of the details, like game management, offensive line play and developing Jones. It sends the message to everybody, ownership included, that he recognizes there is a problem and he is willing to everything to fix that.
members of the Resume Dave Fan Club go study his "great drafts" in Carolina from 2013 to 2017.
My guess is members of the Resume Dave Fan Club in Charlotte really "liked" those drafts too. But that team was really built by Marty Hurney. Check out his drafts from 2002 - 2012 compared to Resume Dave's.
For example:
Julius Pepper, DeShaun Foster, Chris Gamble, Jordan Gross, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Ryan Kalil, Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, etc.
Haven't many of those guys been gone for years? Like Gettleman got rid of them or they were gone pre-DG? Browsing the best players on their current roster, many are gettleman picks starting with Mccaffrey no? Kawann Short, Trai Turner, Curtis Samuel, James Bradberry, Shaq Thompson.
In contrast 2 years later what do we (or the entire league) have left from Reese drafts those few years? Engram, Shepard, Tomlinson, and Apple?
After trading away OBJ for a few picks and letting Landon Collins go to a mega deal. Everyone shits on Collins but he had an All-Pro year here. Hernandez was picked in virtually the same spot as Collins, and if we're lucky he may one day be a better than average guard.
Again, I believe you are mistaken. I don't even cuss at Googs. I doubt I've even addressed you with any kind of attitude. We have probably responded to each other's posts under ten times. You and I don't typically converse.
I am not going to go back through all your comments. I may be wrong about cussing.
But you have certainly posted in support of others who were calling names and cussing...
Here is one example of a response to a poster who was cussing at me and said if he was wrong he would gladly piss out of his skull... Turns out he was wrong, and I haven't seen him pissing out of his skull yet.
The
crick n NC : 6/7/2019 6:04 pm : link
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Pissing out of my skull comment was funny
There have been other time you have supported this poster. So, it is possible that even though you may not have been the one posting crap yourself, supporting others when they do, isn't a good look and that is what has probably stuck in my mind about you as a poster.
I will say there have been a few reinforcing posts. I recall the time I was saying we had an average amount of cap space. Crick criticized my post harshly for being hyberbolic. And for being a "certain type of poster". You and I think GD defended me over a long conversation, saying I wasn't that kind of poster, and crick insisting that I was. I finally got on in the morning to explain that the last time I looked, SpotTrac had the Giants at 14th in a cluster of a bunch of teams. At the time SpotTrac was having a problem and was showing us much higher than we really were. Turns out when they fixed it, we were right back to 14th. But the cap is fluid based on in season signings. Then there was another post recently where he questioned my "self awareness". So, while we may not have interacted often, and I will say that we have almost never debated the merits of something, almost all of our interactions have been crick making a personal attack against me for something.
I will say that crick apologized for the cap space misunderstanding. The fact that he did apologize that one time gives me a reason to have respect for him and to observe more in the future, which as I said above, is something for which I am always willing. Even the other poster from his his state, though that is likely a lost cause.
Got it, but as mentioned earlier though...move on. Â
There was a small disturbed facet on here that acted in concert in defending bad positions with respect to the NY Giants. They have basically dissipated at this point so no need to keep piling on.
Now, I will say if we had competent coaching, we'd be better than 2 10.
Everything is broken.
Clean house.
And so is Shurmur but that doesnt change the fact...
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
Daniel Jones is the only thing the roster has. Everyone else if they were gone tomorrow I wouldn't give a fuck.
The key will be getting the right coach.
That being said, the roster is a disaster also.
We have no pass rushers and no young pass rushers with potential.
Same with both offensive tackle positions.
Same with the Center position.
Same with the linebacker position outside of Connelly.
All the young corners are huge question marks.
We need at least 1 legit WR1.
The tight ends are huge question marks (either bc of injury or talent)
The kicker has been awful
The safeties are dreadful.
We have a good young QB and RB. A good young WR. A couple of good young defensive players and serviceable guards.
That’s it. This is the worst Giants team I’ve ever seen from top to bottom.
There's a name for this disease, it's called Overly Optimistic Knicksfanitis - that's where the fan misjudges the opposing team's lack of respect for your team and subsequent initial playing down to their level. It's easily diagnosed by watching for the moment where the opposing team figures 'ok, break time is over, time to put this thing away' - which usually happens in the early to mid third quarter.
The key will be getting the right coach.
What solid core? They are a total disaster at every key position outside of QB.
The core is Daniel Jones. That's it.
The key will be getting the right coach.
What solid core?
Ogletree
Solder
Bethea
Mayo
Haley
are each the worst starters at their position in the league
They only hung with Green Bay because Green Bay was shooting themselves in the foot on defense. Once they adjusted it was all she wrote.
That's the kind of thing Gettleman will say to Mara to trick him into not firing him.
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
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But I think a solid core is there. A good off-season and they can look like a completely different team in 20.
The key will be getting the right coach.
What solid core? They are a total disaster at every key position outside of QB.
The core is Daniel Jones. That's it.
This. If we were to get rid of the Chris Mara/Gettleman/Shurmur regime along with all the scouts and bring in a new regime, I wouldn't be mad if they traded anyone on the roster. Even Barkley. And if they felt Burrow was better than Jones and wanted to Rosen Jones - I wouldn't feel too badly about it.
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
It's not that at all - people don't discount the effect that coaching has on players, in particular the scheme.
It's that this team doesn't execute on basic plays. Dropped passes, missed tackles, blown assignments. You need a coach to put guys in the right position, but at the same time good players who are poorly coached will at least flash on occasion. Right now, there's no evidence of that.
It's not just the coaching. It's a poorly assembled roster with some glaring weak points and some guys who just aren't very good. In addition, people are more wishful than realistic on the part that some of these players (in particular the later round picks) are going to play going forward.
So Mr's Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?
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But I think a solid core is there. A good off-season and they can look like a completely different team in 20.
The key will be getting the right coach.
What solid core? They are a total disaster at every key position outside of QB.
The core is Daniel Jones. That's it.
People said the exact same shit about the 49ers. The two highly drafted DL were busts. The roster sucks, etc.
Until they got the right coach and pulled it all together with Bosa and a few key acquisitions.
The Giants DL has talent to build around.
The secondary has young players who have flashed. I think they’ll better with a coach who isn’t dead set on running a shitty zone every 3rd down.
The QB is a player. The RB is a player. The WRs are solid.
They need star power rushing the passer and OL help. Both can be accomplished this off-season.
The right coach and a good off-season can win the division next year. Dallas and Philly are declining.
This is an exciting time. Everything that needs to happen is happening for the Giants to right the ship long term.
Blaming Shurmur is a defense mechanism.
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A lot of fans feel that coaching has much impact on the players. Just how bad can a bad coaching staff make a roster (a young roster at that) look? How much does the coaching cloud the picture on what players you have?
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
It's not that at all - people don't discount the effect that coaching has on players, in particular the scheme.
It's that this team doesn't execute on basic plays. Dropped passes, missed tackles, blown assignments. You need a coach to put guys in the right position, but at the same time good players who are poorly coached will at least flash on occasion. Right now, there's no evidence of that.
It's not just the coaching. It's a poorly assembled roster with some glaring weak points and some guys who just aren't very good. In addition, people are more wishful than realistic on the part that some of these players (in particular the later round picks) are going to play going forward.
Losing affects trams physically and mentally. The question is, what is the main reason for them being this bad? Well, since players take time to progress, a young team will have plenty of mistakes, but you're looking for progression, other than Slayton there doesn't seem to be progression, in fact it looks like players have regressed. Shurmur is proven to be a poor coach, So he goes first in my opinion. Gettleman is still an incomplete to me since I want to see his roster with competent coaching. Now it could certainly be both, but I have seen more evidence of it being Shurmur Gettleman at this point.
We have a very young team and there are some players who have shown the ability to contribute.
i think golden, connelly, peppers, lawerence and williams is a solid defense, but obviously we need more. chase young will be a huge addition here... i also think love, baker and beal could be nice players in time. they are in their first years(i know beal isnt, but this is his first real PT). i also dont think carter and ximenes will be bad as backup, rotational, situaional pass rushers with golden(resign) and young(draft)
i think on offense the OGs arent bad. barkley is very good. the WRs arent bad with shep, tate and slayton. I also like engram but he has had a hard time staying healthy.
to say you wouldnt care if everyone was gone except jones is insane. barkley is STILL a great player. the OL seriously has looked like dogshit this season. not really sure how they digressed, but it seems they have.
Yeah, that's how I see it as well.
I personally think coaching impacts the players a lot.
I couldn’t agree more. This is not a bad roster. The team is very young; and the combination of the a poor coaching staff and a poor offensive line has a lot to do with poor play. I think Daniel Jones will be fine. Saquon Barkley will be fine. Slayton looks promising. Just fix the offensive line. On the defensive side, I think the DBs need to grow together. Right now, I think they are being schooled by the veterans. Only time will tell, but I have faith in the future of these DBs and they will learn. The DBs are also not helped by the lack of pass rush, which is horrendous. We need edge rusher’s. Chase Young would definitely help and a good start.
. I like our defense line.. IL’s are awful but I liked what I saw in Connell so we need to add another starter. I like golden and if some how we can add Young then with Carter we would have a good rotation. Peppers was playing well and we have 4 rookie DB’s that have real potential.. Betha is awful and Love is a wildcard to me.. it would be a huge plus if he could be out starting FS..
Coaching sucks and Shurmur wasn’t wrong when he said we were historical young but was dumb for saying it
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
My point is a poor coaching staff makes it all the more difficult to judge the players value.
This roster is pure trash.
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
the WRs are not below average at all.
also nobody is deflecting blame to shurmur. the dude did an end around to a practice squad player today....he ran penny on a 3rd and 1. the dude isnt a good
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
It's pretty simple - it's the 'Eli above the team crowd' - Gettleman can do no wrong in their eyes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they hold Shurmur accountable for the latest benching.
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OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
the WRs are not below average at all.
also nobody is deflecting blame to shurmur. the dude did an end around to a practice squad player today....he ran penny on a 3rd and 1. the dude isnt a good
No shit he’s not good- the coach is awful
The op claims he likes the roster- the roster sucks
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OL? Awful
WRs- below average
Linebackers- Awful
Qb/rb - sure- you would hope so given the 2nd and 6th pick used
DL- solid
Secondary- at least this unit is young and one can hope -
But still a poor group
The coach is not good but the GM gave him a shitburger to work with
It’s like because we have found a qb and a few guys to root for that we just deflect all negativity to the coach because it makes us feel better?
It's pretty simple - it's the 'Eli above the team crowd' - Gettleman can do no wrong in their eyes.
I wouldn't be surprised if they hold Shurmur accountable for the latest benching.
Guessing on one's intentions isn't typically a good idea.
Wrong about what?
The difference between me and a lot of you is that I didn't have my mind made up on Gettleman from day one.
okay
1. golden is a solid rusher, he has NOTHING on the other end. that will change come april
2. connelly looked to be solid before the injury. him alongside lets say a guy like shobert(FA signing) would be really good.
3.OL does suck and this is going to be numer 1 thing to address this offseason after taking young in first
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Is because that would be admitting he was wrong about a bunch of things.
Wrong about what?
The difference between me and a lot of you is that I didn't have my mind made up on Gettleman from day one.
You apparently did have your mind made up about him from day one if you still like the roster.
Again, what's to like about the roster. They have a few decent players? They certainly should picking as high as they have for a number of years.
Every roster in the NFL has a few players.
Let's hear what you like about this roster.
Yeah, the roster is fantastic. I'm looking forward to an offseason of 'just give Gettleman another OL rebuild and this time he'll get it right'.
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Strong rookie class outside of Baker. Barkley. And what?
We have the worst front 7 in football. Not one top shelf talent on defense. Every unit has problems and a severe lack of talent. The LB unit is the worst in football. Pass rush? Awful. Bottom of the league talent.
OL is below average.
Thankfully, we have Jones. He gives us some hope but the roster needs to be flipped. Long road to average. When they get there, very few on this roster will be on the team.
Ximines and Ogletree made that list. That alone should tell you something.
The Giants don't have a below average WR group, they have a terrible group.
Shepard's entered a state of career fragility, and cannot be counted on to be available.
Tate is the same reliable, but unremarkable player he's been for a half dozen years.
Slayton is a real bright spot, but has unreliable hands and is a frequent body catcher.
It's absolutely laughable the leader in catches is a tight end who has missed what, 4 games?
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, I like you, I actually like your optimism, so don't change! ;)
Unfortunately I can't travel this road with you. There are 8 players (exactly half) of the one you listed, that IMO are not quality NFL starters and wont become one in the future.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
I was against it a few weeks ago but a new voice is needed to correct, this pertains to offense and defense.
Just like SF 2 years ago there is a nice core here on defense. A pass rushing monster like Chase Young or Clowney would bring an identity. If the Cowboys do a full change in staff I would love to hire Kris Richards at DC. Richards is the former DC from Seattle and was instrumental in the formation of the Legion of Boom.
Outside of Barkley The offense has alot of 2 tier position players, these guys will only get better if Jones elevates to the next level. To execute this, I don't believe we need another re-haul on oline, I prefer and value a offense that gells so I would like to see the team target an upgrade at RT only.
One factor that definitely shows that coaching is the problem is some players who have done reasonably well elsewhere (Solder and Remmers as an OT are the prime examples here, and at times Zeitler and Janoris Jenkins, too) look like garbage as G-men.
And going the other way, some guys who didn't do so well here (Weston Richburg, Marshall Newhouse, Landon Collins, Dwayne Harris, maybe Matt LaCosse when healthy and Nat Berhe and a couple others) look at least serviceable elsewhere.
The two coaching staffs since Coughlin was dismissed have absolutely sucked donkey balls. And that's on Mara, not Gettleman.
But as ever, "hope" is not reality.
I'll say it again, worst Giants roster I've seen in 33 years as a fan. Gettleman is a failure.
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I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
But as ever, "hope" is not reality.
I'll say it again, worst Giants roster I've seen in 33 years as a fan. Gettleman is a failure.
Not sure I think its fair to make that assessment after only 2 seasons.
In those constructs? Well, it's been 8 years and they're moving backwards. So - what do you consider the two Mara's life expectancy to be, and we can work backwards from there.
Which roster in the NFL would you take the Giants roster over, Britt?
I'd love to hear it. If you like the Giants roster, I'd be interested to hear which rosters you don't like in the NFL
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
There's talent on every single roster in the NFL. The Giants have picked top 10 multiple times in the last handful of years. They've picked top 6 2 consecutive. They had 3 first round picks last year. Of course there is "talent"
But we have a real QB to build around. One reason I only want Shurmur axed and a coordinator elevated to HC is I'd hate to see all these young guys go through a total overhaul and change process. Makes it tough to have a winning season next year. Then again we may not really have an option right?
My gut tells me we go and get an NFL coordinator as our next HC. But how often does a new HC keep the previous regime's coaches and system? Never!
Shurmur just isn't head coach material and his record reflects that. I mean, we do have a shot at the #1 pick in the draft if the Bengals and Miami can win again and we lose out. SMH.
But we have poor overall personnell. I'm really hoping Saquon Barkley finishes strong and shows his injury held him back more than anything else. The vision issues we are seeing now have me gritting my teeth.
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In comment 14697970 Britt in VA said:
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I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
Those guys actually contributed.
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I don't know if you realize what a difference that is from there to here, but he needs a little time to develop but he has some raw talent.
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
Look at Justin Tuck's rookie numbers. Also a third round pick. Good thing we didn't give up on him.
Same with Osi Umenyiora. Raw talent guys that we were patient with. We made a living off guys like this for a while.
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
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In comment 14697989 christian said:
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In comment 14697970 Britt in VA said:
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I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
Those guys actually contributed.
And those guys were on really good rosters where they could contribute.
Did they MAKE the team talented? No. But they contributed. Latimer can do the same and he has had plenty of good plays, including today. We need depth guys like that. I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
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In comment 14697977 Britt in VA said:
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I don't know if you realize what a difference that is from there to here, but he needs a little time to develop but he has some raw talent.
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
Look at Justin Tuck's rookie numbers. Also a third round pick. Good thing we didn't give up on him.
Same with Osi Umenyiora. Raw talent guys that we were patient with. We made a living off guys like this for a while.
Tuck was a highly touted player from a premiere program
who slipped to the 3rd round due to injury.
Osi had sick measurables but came from a small school. Osi was blocked by Strahan and Kenny Holmes, so he rotated in and had limited opportunity. Ditto for Tuck later with Strahan and Osi.
Ximines is close to neither. He has all the opportunity to make some kind of impact, and he's been nowhere to be found.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
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their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
You can like the roster - but you're not basing it on anything but wishes. Ximines has been invisible this year, and he's not the only one.
Ogletree has been horrendous - and they pay him $10M a year, on top of trading a 4th and a 6th for him.
Winning teams don't do this. That's why the Giants look as bad as they are - they're a poorly managed, poorly coached collection of misfit parts. Inefficient use of resources has made this roster uneven and extremely weak at more than one position. That's on the GM as much as the coach, and until this team gets serious about revamping the way they do business from the top to the bottom of the house, all Giants fans will be able to do is dream of a winning season.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
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In comment 14698019 Dave on the UWS said:
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their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
The Browns are a perfect example of the difference - they do have some talent. And at times they do flash and their players will put together a string of good plays and show some impressive individual performances.
You don't see that out of the Giants, because they're bereft of talent.
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That's fine.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
I get the thinking on Ogletree, I just think with the right guys around him he'd look much better. Like the offensive line, lacking a superstar, all pro type, the LB's need to function as a unit. Ogletree isn't a one man wrecking crew, but I do think he could be a nice piece to a unit.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
Our coaches are ruining careers here, they are not inspiring, they are not pro-active or even reactive...they simply call plays with no sense of the flow of the game or of situational success.
Its hard to tell how good our roster is...it will take a better coach to assess that.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
You repeating I think there should be an All Pro at every position isn't going to magically make it something I've said. That's a weird, nonsensical thing to repeat.
Coming into today the Giants:
- Had one player in the top 50 in the NFL in catches - TE Evan Engram
- The highest WR was 70th - Golden Tate
- The Giants didn't have a WR in the top 60 in yards, Slayton and Tate were both lower than 60th
- At 48th in the league, Slayton leads the Giants in yards per target
The Giants have fragile WR in Shepard, an aging reliable but inefficient player in Tate, and a rookie with upside in Slayton.
Latimer is a fringe NFL player who's a risk to not be in the league.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
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everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
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In comment 14698126 jcn56 said:
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everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
You said the Giants are a team of jags, which includes players in their first year. I am not sure why you felt compelled to reply with snark.
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In comment 14698126 jcn56 said:
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everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
I'm willing to give Ogletree another season, hopefully a move back to the 4-3, and some pieces around him before I make my judgement.
I agree.
The WRs are DGs- they aren’t good
The Secondary is DGs - it’s not good - but at least it’s young
The linebackers are DGs- they stink
The coaching staff is DGs- it stinks
In summary - he stinks - it’s his own shitburger- he should own it- he likely won’t - let’s hope they get lucky in the offseason hitting on coach and picks and signings
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
A LOT of guys were needed because Gettleman blew the self-assessment of this team in the very worst way.
He went half-hearted at first, signing some throwaway FAs in an attempt to compete in year 1, before realizing how in over his head he was and cleaning house. He went for a scorched earth rebuild that had him trade away just about anything worth half a damn. Then, he stuck with a QB who had obviously lost a step, and retained him at a pretty penny.
He took the resources he obtained in the tear down and put together an incomplete roster with replacements who weren't as good as the guys he was moving on from in the first place.
Again - worth mentioning, that the team was 11-5 in 2016.
Had they bothered interviewing a few GM candidates, the Giants brass might have had some other opinions on what needed to be done to base their next steps on. Instead, they went for a token outsider (Riddick) and the obvious hire in Gettleman. What followed next should surprise no one.
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In comment 14698135 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14698126 jcn56 said:
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everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
You said the Giants are a team of jags, which includes players in their first year. I am not sure why you felt compelled to reply with snark.
Sorry, but you picked an odd post to reply to if that was your point.
Maybe the rookies aren't JAGs - right now, they're not even playing to the level of JAGs, with the exception of Jones and Slayton they're not even playing like pro football players. If the assertion is that Gettleman deserves more time simply because he has a lot of rookies playing, I'd suggest that it was his stupid idea to nuke the team in the first place and end up in that scenario.
This probably should be an 7-8 win team with the right coaching staff and game plan.
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we need A LOT of guys. That's the situation we were left with, which Dave Gettlman walked into. A LOT of guys were needed.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
A LOT of guys were needed because Gettleman blew the self-assessment of this team in the very worst way.
He went half-hearted at first, signing some throwaway FAs in an attempt to compete in year 1, before realizing how in over his head he was and cleaning house. He went for a scorched earth rebuild that had him trade away just about anything worth half a damn. Then, he stuck with a QB who had obviously lost a step, and retained him at a pretty penny.
He took the resources he obtained in the tear down and put together an incomplete roster with replacements who weren't as good as the guys he was moving on from in the first place.
Again - worth mentioning, that the team was 11-5 in 2016.
Had they bothered interviewing a few GM candidates, the Giants brass might have had some other opinions on what needed to be done to base their next steps on. Instead, they went for a token outsider (Riddick) and the obvious hire in Gettleman. What followed next should surprise no one.
Which GM candidates? Dorsey?
C'mon now.
OK - now that makes sense.
Confirmation Bias is one thing
This is Confirmation Blindness
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, the following guys on your list are not starters for a competitive team..
Zeitler
Latimer
Smith
Ximines
Ogletree
Baker
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Jones
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, the following guys on your list are not starters for a competitive team..
Zeitler
Latimer
Smith
Ximines
Ogletree
Baker
Who said they have to be starters?
you could also say the talent gap is so wide that it's difficult to evaluate the coaching.
Does that mean the roster is a coach away from competing for the playoffs? One off season and a new coach from competing for the playoffs?
Does that mean the roster is a coach away from competing for the playoffs? One off season and a new coach from competing for the playoffs?
Maybe. Who knows, but we do know that can actually happen.
We have a rookie QB who is growing less and less promising each week.
We have a RB who essentially produces nothing anymore but a few cool runs per game.
Our TE spends more time off the field than on.
Our OL vacillates between putrid and ordinary.
Our WRs looks like a decent group.
DEFENSE
We have a thousand DTs who flash once in a while. And we just wasted draft picks, and ultimately $15M per year in cap space, on another one who
We have one competent edge rusher. The rest are ALL complete question marks.
As a group, we have the worst LBs in the NFL.
We have one competent, professional corner.
We have one competent safety.
SPECIALS
We have a place-kicker who has become an average kicker.
We have a nice punter.
We have zero impact return guys.
DEPTH
There is none.
CONCLUSION
The roster is the complete opposite of something to like.
We have a rookie QB who is growing less and less promising each week.
We have a RB who essentially produces nothing anymore but a few cool runs per game.
Our TE spends more time off the field than on.
Our OL vacillates between putrid and ordinary.
Our WRs looks like a decent group.
DEFENSE
We have a thousand DTs who flash once in a while. And we just wasted draft picks, and ultimately $15M per year in cap space, on another one who
We have one competent edge rusher. The rest are ALL complete question marks.
As a group, we have the worst LBs in the NFL.
We have one competent, professional corner.
We have one competent safety.
SPECIALS
We have a place-kicker who has become an average kicker.
We have a nice punter.
We have zero impact return guys.
DEPTH
There is none.
CONCLUSION
The roster is the complete opposite of something to like.
Didn't read past your first line. Get lost.
Yeah, that's right. That's how I know it was time for him to go. Do you see me advocating for Shurmer to stay?
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What does liking a roster actually mean?
Does that mean the roster is a coach away from competing for the playoffs? One off season and a new coach from competing for the playoffs?
Maybe. Who knows, but we do know that can actually happen.
So what do you actually mean when you say you like the roster?
50% of the posters on this thread seemed to understand that right away without clarification.
50% of the posters on this thread seemed to understand that right away without clarification.
Got it. Above you listed 16 players. Would it be fair to say those are the players you think are the pieces to build around?
And if so, is it fair to say then you don't like the other 2/3 of the roster?
On offense you didn't list 3/5 of the starting offensive line, you didn't list the top 2 TEs, you didn't list one of the starting WRs.
On defense you didn't list the starting defensive tackle, you didn't one of the starting outside linebackers, the starting free safety, one of the starting corners, or the slot corner.
It kind of seems like you think there are some good players and some young players, but that the Giants need about 10 new starters.
This logic is so twisted and flawed. Normally when a team is undermanned and "hung in" you chalk that up to GOOD coaching. Instead they are undermanned (enough for them to lose by anyone's estimation) and the SCHEMES are holding them back.
Get a grip. You are so hopelessly hopeful that things are better than they actually are that you will push whatever narrative minimizes our problems the most and gets us to competing quickest no matter how foolishly optimistic.
In case you haven't been watching all this the only common thread in this shitty run we've been having is fans saying things like "it's just Reese or MacAdoo or TC" or "DG overhauled our whole scouting system" one or two sacrificial lambs the bad eggs you know causing all the problems. Guess what. Problems have gotten worse despite us rooting out the bad eggs so bravely.
You like the roster? Great. Why should anyone care about that? This nonsense post i'm responding to shows how far you will go. This is all Shurmur's fault? What an original and non-Giants front office propaganda serving thought!
RAH!
RAHHHHHHHHHH!
I don’t think people like you should be spouting BS about this roster being any good and increasing the probability that fans don’t demand change. People like you are acting like there are two perspectives one where this isn’t a complete mess top to bottom and one where Shurmur is the issue and when we get new coaches this roster will show us it’s talent!
Also I get why Giants management wants to push this narrative that Shurmur is preventing this roster from showing what is can really do. They don’t want to have to commit to real change at the top. What’s in it for you?
The WRs are DGs- they aren’t good
The Secondary is DGs - it’s not good - but at least it’s young
The linebackers are DGs- they stink
The coaching staff is DGs- it stinks
In summary - he stinks - it’s his own shitburger- he should own it- he likely won’t - let’s hope they get lucky in the offseason hitting on coach and picks and signings
This
The roster is garbage.
The franchise is garbage.
The roster is garbage.
The franchise is garbage.
So you're sayong you actually don't like the roster?
We have a rookie QB who is growing less and less promising each week.
We have a RB who essentially produces nothing anymore but a few cool runs per game.
Our TE spends more time off the field than on.
Our OL vacillates between putrid and ordinary.
Our WRs looks like a decent group.
DEFENSE
We have a thousand DTs who flash once in a while. And we just wasted draft picks, and ultimately $15M per year in cap space, on another one who
We have one competent edge rusher. The rest are ALL complete question marks.
As a group, we have the worst LBs in the NFL.
We have one competent, professional corner.
We have one competent safety.
SPECIALS
We have a place-kicker who has become an average kicker.
We have a nice punter.
We have zero impact return guys.
DEPTH
There is none.
CONCLUSION
The roster is the complete opposite of something to like.
This assessment is somewhat optimistic, overlooking the fact that the one pass rusher the team does have isn't under contract next year.
Lol, I kid. If you read Britt's follow ups it actually reads as if he doesn't either.
Offense
Jones
Barkley
Slayton
Hernandez
Shepherd
Zeitler
Smith (looks promising)
Even (if he is still here)
Tate
Upgrade the OT's and center and there are weapons
Defense
D-line looks solid
Secondary is very young and could be good in time
Connelly looks like he could be good
Add a couple pass rushers this d could be good next year
Our schemes suck, our motivation sucks, and we are continually putting players in the wrong positions to succeed. We are always outcoached.
Our schemes suck, our motivation sucks, and we are continually putting players in the wrong positions to succeed. We are always outcoached.
The motivation sucks? Weren't these the 'good players' - the ones with the right 'culture'? You know, the ones Gettleman described as 'hating to lose'?
Do they only hate to lose when they're properly motivated? If so, maybe they need additional criteria for their draft picks? In addition to 'hates to lose', add 'self-starter'.
This probably should be an 7-8 win team with the right coaching staff and game plan.
No way 7 win team. You're dreaming. eight is laughable.
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I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
You repeating I think there should be an All Pro at every position isn't going to magically make it something I've said. That's a weird, nonsensical thing to repeat.
Coming into today the Giants:
- Had one player in the top 50 in the NFL in catches - TE Evan Engram
- The highest WR was 70th - Golden Tate
- The Giants didn't have a WR in the top 60 in yards, Slayton and Tate were both lower than 60th
- At 48th in the league, Slayton leads the Giants in yards per target
The Giants have fragile WR in Shepard, an aging reliable but inefficient player in Tate, and a rookie with upside in Slayton.
Latimer is a fringe NFL player who's a risk to not be in the league.
Some fans are just blinded by complete big blue homerism. This roster stinks and they need to make big moves in FA and get some good damn draft picks or we'll suck again next year. Thus the roster sucks. It needs an infusion of big time talent. Without making some huge FA moves and getting an impact player like Young-- this team will stink again next year.
However I believe they can make the moves to be decent next year but I have extremely low confidence in the GM that he is capable of doing so. He needs to hit on quite a few FA's instead of going about his usual more-than-likely blundering. .
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Every game I look at this team and say they can't be that bad. A lot of these guys are either 1) guys who had success other places ,or 2) young guys with talent who are improving.
Our schemes suck, our motivation sucks, and we are continually putting players in the wrong positions to succeed. We are always outcoached.
The motivation sucks? Weren't these the 'good players' - the ones with the right 'culture'? You know, the ones Gettleman described as 'hating to lose'?
Do they only hate to lose when they're properly motivated? If so, maybe they need additional criteria for their draft picks? In addition to 'hates to lose', add 'self-starter'.
That dude is another cheerleading poster.
I don't see how it paints us as being in a good situation, however.
I don't see how it paints us as being in a good situation, however.
I think that's the issue though - it's not 'are there any good players on this roster' - he "likes" the roster (in totality) and thinks the coach is a bum (to blame for the poor performance).
There's enough blame to go around on this one. The easiest explanation for a team that should be tied for the worst in the league is that both the players and the coaches suck.
No.
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Jones
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, the following guys on your list are not starters for a competitive team..
Zeitler
Latimer
Smith
Ximines
Ogletree
Baker
Oh come on...
1) Not all of those guys have to be starters, they can simply be promising players who provide adequate depth on winning team.
2) Zeitler up until this year was considered borderline pro bowl material. Even if he is not playing well I don't give up on him. He has proven that he can be starting-caliber OL in the NFL and that is hard to find these days. I say look at other factors (i.e. Shurmur, Hal Hunter, the rest of the OL, the culture in general, etc.) as reasons for Zeitler's poor play before just writing him off as a pure bust all of a sudden.
3) Ximines and Baker are rookies. I don't think we can write them off so quickly either. Ximines has flashed at times. And Baker was a 1st round pick and his primary strength is man coverage and Bettcher has him playing a lot of zone and he's struggling in his first year in the NFL. I think both of those guys could go on to be quality starters in the right scheme, with the right coaching staff, the right supporting cast, etc. We can't write the book on these young guys just yet, they could very well go to another team and become an all-pro (we've seen that happen before with players leaving bad Giants teams).
DG should absolutely stay in place but Shurmur must go. Any new HC should be given control of his coaching staff although they should listen to recommendations from the FO about current coaches.
It's not just that.
Gettleman is tied to the glory years, so he has Britt's loyalty and admiration right out of the box. Shurmur is not connected to the TC/Eli era at all, so Britt can actually view him objectively.
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Is because that would be admitting he was wrong about a bunch of things.
Wrong about what?
The difference between me and a lot of you is that I didn't have my mind made up on Gettleman from day one.
I think you did.
The talent gap is clear.
This roster sucks.
You continue to be delusional. Sorry.
Guys like Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence right now they have yet to prove that they're even JAG level. But its easy to project that they will soon surpass that and become good players.
Right now, the Giants have a bottom three roster in the league. Maybe Miami and Cinci are worse. Do we want the man who got us here shopping for the rest? I do not.
Guys like Baker, Beal, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence right now they have yet to prove that they're even JAG level. But its easy to project that they will soon surpass that and become good players.
Right now, the Giants have a bottom three roster in the league. Maybe Miami and Cinci are worse. Do we want the man who got us here shopping for the rest? I do not.
Jim, this is completely spot on. The assumption all the unproven guys will succeed is illogical. History says several will fall short.
New doesn't by definition mean better. They are only better when they prove it.
When you draft players high they ARE building blocks whether they play like it or not out of the box, thus the time needed to see if they are the player you hoped for when drafted.
Players in later rounds are typically added to be depth or contributors who may take longer to show their worth.
Crick, it does seem as though there are several posters who not only are assuming those players will improve, but even some who act as though those players are all but assured of reaching the most promising projection of their potential.
How else is one supposed to read the dozens of posts that talk about how great DG's drafts have been? The only rational view of his drafts so far is that any grade at all is an incomplete. But that's not the way it's positioned by at least a handful of fans here on BBI who dismiss each DG misstep as a justifiable one-off event, but somehow see a positive trend where there are not yet any results to support that view.
When you draft players high they ARE building blocks whether they play like it or not out of the box, thus the time needed to see if they are the player you hoped for when drafted.
Players in later rounds are typically added to be depth or contributors who may take longer to show their worth.
That's fair. So with a roster with a significant number of players that fit that bill, would that be a roster to like (assuming that means happy with and confident in).
Or would that be closer to a roster to be hopeful for, but reasonably skeptical?
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Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
Crick, it does seem as though there are several posters who not only are assuming those players will improve, but even some who act as though those players are all but assured of reaching the most promising projection of their potential.
How else is one supposed to read the dozens of posts that talk about how great DG's drafts have been? The only rational view of his drafts so far is that any grade at all is an incomplete. But that's not the way it's positioned by at least a handful of fans here on BBI who dismiss each DG misstep as a justifiable one-off event, but somehow see a positive trend where there are not yet any results to support that view.
Gator, I see your point.
From my view most Gettleman discussions are traveling on a two way road. One way is positive, one way is negative. Neither side cares to slow down enough to hear and discuss in a civil manner what each individual's thoughts are without injecting conclusions that may not have happened yet (like saying drafts are incomplete, you're right, they are incomplete).
I'd say in reality most of us are protecting our opinions to future conclusions without admitting that most likely we still have some road to travel to get to those conclusions.
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Really assuming those players will improve? I think a lot of us are simply saying they are still unknown who should be given adequate time with competent coaches to see their value.
When you draft players high they ARE building blocks whether they play like it or not out of the box, thus the time needed to see if they are the player you hoped for when drafted.
Players in later rounds are typically added to be depth or contributors who may take longer to show their worth.
That's fair. So with a roster with a significant number of players that fit that bill, would that be a roster to like (assuming that means happy with and confident in).
Or would that be closer to a roster to be hopeful for, but reasonably skeptical?
Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
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Is because that would be admitting he was wrong about a bunch of things.
It's not just that.
Gettleman is tied to the glory years, so he has Britt's loyalty and admiration right out of the box. Shurmur is not connected to the TC/Eli era at all, so Britt can actually view him objectively.
That's quite an assumption. Frankly, I just like Gettleman's philosophy. I also believe that this game is still won and lost in the by running the ball and rushing the passer. I actually liked the moves that he's made when he's made them, and I can see him trying to fulfill his plan. Have they all worked out? No. But I do like his ability to cut bait quickly rather than continue to try and force things.
I also like that he stated conviction about when/how to draft a QB, which according to many on BBI was the single biggest thing that had to be done. He stuck to his guns on what a QB should look like, and seeing Daniel Jones play I agree with his decision 100%.
As far Saquon goes, I look at what he did in Carolina drafting McCaffrey and was nailed to the wall for doing so, but that pick is looking pretty decent this year too.
At the end of the day, we got the stud RB AND the QB in subsequent drafts. I'm good with that. I'm good with Dexer Lawrence. I'm good with Will Hernandez. I can see what he's doing with those picks. I just like his process right now. That's it.
The ONLY tie to the glory years that I care about is the philosophy.
Have a quarter of them worked out? No.
Britt just can't get enough of Gettleman's blather. He swallows it all, hook line and sinker.
Do you feel Gettleman has done a good job of acquiring players in the pursuit of a good run game? Has he succeeded at that?
Have a quarter of them worked out? No.
Britt just can't get enough of Gettleman's blather. He swallows it all, hook line and sinker.
He's moved on from Saint Tommy, to Eli, to now Gettleman.
Williams, Hill, Tomlinson, Carter, Slayton, Engram, and all the DB's may or may not also be part of that core but at minimum are role players.
The coaching staff has done a terrible job turning what could be a competitive team into a doormat. Teams with worse talent and more injuries (Oakland, NYJ, Miami, Washington) are playing more competitively than we are. That is 100% on the coaching staff.
I think they're just observations based on your general POV when posting. Does it feel insulting?
6 quarters and 3-4(?) preseason games, and a lot of what we saw looked a lot like his highlights from Wisconsin - the guy makes reads and has quickness to attack the backfield we hadn't seen in over a decade.
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I also believe that this game is still won and lost in the by running the ball and rushing the passer. I actually liked the moves that he's made when he's made them, and I can see him trying to fulfill his plan. Have they all worked out? No. But I do like his ability to cut bait quickly rather than continue to try and force things.
Do you feel Gettleman has done a good job of acquiring players in the pursuit of a good run game? Has he succeeded at that?
It is really hard to tell because the coaching is piss poor. DG was the guy who hired him and his clown car of a staff so I'm leaning he can go to now. I won't be upset either way.
And, since you're the one trying to pump up the roster of a 2-10 team, the burden of proof falls on you, I'm afraid.
And, since you're the one trying to pump up the roster of a 2-10 team, the burden of proof falls on you, I'm afraid.
Being shouted down rapid fire when you try to provide any burden of proof from thread to thread with the same things beaten to death gets a little exhausting.
At least we can all agree the coaching sucks.
Completely fair to have some doubt about how he comes back from injury, but in reference to Gettleman isn't it that he made the pick? Nobody can predict injuries. Dalvin Cook tore his ACL in game 4, was still a good pick even though it took him a while to come back.
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All any of us do is spout our opinions.
And, since you're the one trying to pump up the roster of a 2-10 team, the burden of proof falls on you, I'm afraid.
Being shouted down rapid fire when you try to provide any burden of proof from thread to thread with the same things beaten to death gets a little exhausting.
At least we can all agree the coaching sucks.
If consensus is what you're after, you can just realize that objective and optimistic can't really share a bedroom for a franchise that has won 10 games in three years, especially with a GM from the owner's crony network who can't decide whether he's rebuilding or reloading for a playoff run.
Any draft pick will get an 'incomplete' until they produce over an extended enough period of time to warrant a 2nd contract or not. Jones is an incomplete right now despite playing twice as many games as Connelly but he looks good. Mayfield and Darnold are still incompletes in year 2. Any of our opinions are speculation - and that's what GM's do, they speculate that the guys they pick will pan out. Decisions get made based on speculation, not after the results are known.
Even after 6 quarters as you put it I'd be comfortable speculating that a healthy Connelly is a positive impact starting LB. The healthy part is a legitimate question going forward but I still credit DG for acquiring the 5 guys I mentioned because I'd be comfortable similarly speculating that they are all positive impact starters and in Connelly's case there was no way to predict he'd get hurt at the time he was selected other than it's the NFL and injuries happen.
Gettleman is a good college scout and some rookies and second year players have flashed; but so far does a piss poor job of managing a roster. He gets rid of talented players he inherited who he doesn’t bond with and brings in damaged goods who are supposed locker room champions who flat out suck. And he was involved in hiring Shurmur - probably because It’s Pat! would be humble and deferential to his ways of working.
So yeah Its Pat! Has gotta go but DG should be on the hot seat in 2020.
So yeah Its Pat! Has gotta go but DG should be on the hot seat in 2020.
So DG HIRES a new coach then gets fired. The new coach now has a GM who didn't hire him. That's the fuckin JETS. We cannot operate that way.
My guess is members of the Resume Dave Fan Club in Charlotte really "liked" those drafts too. But that team was really built by Marty Hurney. Check out his drafts from 2002 - 2012 compared to Resume Dave's.
For example:
Julius Pepper, DeShaun Foster, Chris Gamble, Jordan Gross, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Ryan Kalil, Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, etc.
My guess is members of the Resume Dave Fan Club in Charlotte really "liked" those drafts too. But that team was really built by Marty Hurney. Check out his drafts from 2002 - 2012 compared to Resume Dave's.
For example:
Julius Pepper, DeShaun Foster, Chris Gamble, Jordan Gross, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Ryan Kalil, Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, etc.
Haven't many of those guys been gone for years? Like Gettleman got rid of them or they were gone pre-DG? Browsing the best players on their current roster, many are gettleman picks starting with Mccaffrey no? Kawann Short, Trai Turner, Curtis Samuel, James Bradberry, Shaq Thompson.
In contrast 2 years later what do we (or the entire league) have left from Reese drafts those few years? Engram, Shepard, Tomlinson, and Apple?
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
Crick, I applaud this new found temperance, self awareness, and diplomacy on your part.
But lets not pretend that you haven't been one of the leaders of the divisiveness here. In the past you have been very quick to call people names and use foul language rather than make a real point yourself. It seemed like you were taking your cues from another poster from your your state.
I wonder if this turn is because the state of the team has made your core positions regarding the Giants untenable to continue to defend, or if this is something more permanent. I hope for the latter, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would not be surprised with a return to past ways.
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Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
Crick, I applaud this new found temperance, self awareness, and diplomacy on your part.
But lets not pretend that you haven't been one of the leaders of the divisiveness here. In the past you have been very quick to call people names and use foul language rather than make a real point yourself. It seemed like you were taking your cues from another poster from your your state.
I wonder if this turn is because the state of the team has made your core positions regarding the Giants untenable to continue to defend, or if this is something more permanent. I hope for the latter, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would not be surprised with a return to past ways.
Mcl, I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I don't remember the last time I used foul language or called anyone any name other than their handle, it's not my style.
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In comment 14699197 crick n NC said:
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Fair question Christian. It's ok to like or dislike the roster. The disconnect comes when the discussion turns into a competition of right and wrong. I haven't waded into the waters of right and wrong yet, I'm still waiting. I feel like the coaching staff has delayed my decision even longer, although I am not holding that hostage to not make a decision. I really believe what I write while trying my best to be self aware enough to understand that I am the one missing or not seeing correctly.
Debates can be fun as long as they are handled with respect and honesty. Fierce competition on right and wrong happens a lot here, and I don't see any good in that.
Crick, I applaud this new found temperance, self awareness, and diplomacy on your part.
But lets not pretend that you haven't been one of the leaders of the divisiveness here. In the past you have been very quick to call people names and use foul language rather than make a real point yourself. It seemed like you were taking your cues from another poster from your your state.
I wonder if this turn is because the state of the team has made your core positions regarding the Giants untenable to continue to defend, or if this is something more permanent. I hope for the latter, I for one will give you the benefit of the doubt for now. But I would not be surprised with a return to past ways.
Mcl, I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I don't remember the last time I used foul language or called anyone any name other than their handle, it's not my style.
You've done it with me, more than once.
And you have certainly encouraged the other other poster to whom I am referring.
I don't think you do cuss at me. Why the call out though?
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Again, I believe you are mistaken. I don't even cuss at Googs. I doubt I've even addressed you with any kind of attitude. We have probably responded to each other's posts under ten times. You and I don't typically converse.
I don't think you do cuss at me. Why the call out though?
It was meant to be light hearted. I apologize.
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members of the Resume Dave Fan Club go study his "great drafts" in Carolina from 2013 to 2017.
My guess is members of the Resume Dave Fan Club in Charlotte really "liked" those drafts too. But that team was really built by Marty Hurney. Check out his drafts from 2002 - 2012 compared to Resume Dave's.
For example:
Julius Pepper, DeShaun Foster, Chris Gamble, Jordan Gross, Thomas Davis, DeAngelo Williams, Ryan Kalil, Cam Newton, Luke Kuechly, etc.
Haven't many of those guys been gone for years? Like Gettleman got rid of them or they were gone pre-DG? Browsing the best players on their current roster, many are gettleman picks starting with Mccaffrey no? Kawann Short, Trai Turner, Curtis Samuel, James Bradberry, Shaq Thompson.
In contrast 2 years later what do we (or the entire league) have left from Reese drafts those few years? Engram, Shepard, Tomlinson, and Apple?
After trading away OBJ for a few picks and letting Landon Collins go to a mega deal. Everyone shits on Collins but he had an All-Pro year here. Hernandez was picked in virtually the same spot as Collins, and if we're lucky he may one day be a better than average guard.
I am not going to go back through all your comments. I may be wrong about cussing.
But you have certainly posted in support of others who were calling names and cussing...
Here is one example of a response to a poster who was cussing at me and said if he was wrong he would gladly piss out of his skull... Turns out he was wrong, and I haven't seen him pissing out of his skull yet.
The
crick n NC : 6/7/2019 6:04 pm : link
Pissing out of my skull comment was funny
There have been other time you have supported this poster. So, it is possible that even though you may not have been the one posting crap yourself, supporting others when they do, isn't a good look and that is what has probably stuck in my mind about you as a poster.
Move on and see if observe differently...
Move on and see if observe differently...
I agree Googs...
I will say there have been a few reinforcing posts. I recall the time I was saying we had an average amount of cap space. Crick criticized my post harshly for being hyberbolic. And for being a "certain type of poster". You and I think GD defended me over a long conversation, saying I wasn't that kind of poster, and crick insisting that I was. I finally got on in the morning to explain that the last time I looked, SpotTrac had the Giants at 14th in a cluster of a bunch of teams. At the time SpotTrac was having a problem and was showing us much higher than we really were. Turns out when they fixed it, we were right back to 14th. But the cap is fluid based on in season signings. Then there was another post recently where he questioned my "self awareness". So, while we may not have interacted often, and I will say that we have almost never debated the merits of something, almost all of our interactions have been crick making a personal attack against me for something.
I will say that crick apologized for the cap space misunderstanding. The fact that he did apologize that one time gives me a reason to have respect for him and to observe more in the future, which as I said above, is something for which I am always willing. Even the other poster from his his state, though that is likely a lost cause.