Probably a six win team with a lot of room for growth upward because of youth. Shurmur and his staff fucking suck. Hal Hunter?!?!aAre you fucking kidding me with that guy?!?
What’s to like about it? No coach could win with this roster.
Strong rookie class outside of Baker. Barkley. And what?
We have the worst front 7 in football. Not one top shelf talent on defense. Every unit has problems and a severe lack of talent. The LB unit is the worst in football. Pass rush? Awful. Bottom of the league talent.
OL is below average.
Thankfully, we have Jones. He gives us some hope but the roster needs to be flipped. Long road to average. When they get there, very few on this roster will be on the team.
Jones
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, I like you, I actually like your optimism, so don't change! ;)
Unfortunately I can't travel this road with you. There are 8 players (exactly half) of the one you listed, that IMO are not quality NFL starters and wont become one in the future.
but I think the damage has been done under Shurmur, the team is very young and is losing confidence.
I was against it a few weeks ago but a new voice is needed to correct, this pertains to offense and defense.
Just like SF 2 years ago there is a nice core here on defense. A pass rushing monster like Chase Young or Clowney would bring an identity. If the Cowboys do a full change in staff I would love to hire Kris Richards at DC. Richards is the former DC from Seattle and was instrumental in the formation of the Legion of Boom.
Outside of Barkley The offense has alot of 2 tier position players, these guys will only get better if Jones elevates to the next level. To execute this, I don't believe we need another re-haul on oline, I prefer and value a offense that gells so I would like to see the team target an upgrade at RT only.
Overall, the roster is better than it has been in several years. There are still disaster areas but the OVERALL talent level is coming back somewhat. However, it is being held back by the COACHING.
One factor that definitely shows that coaching is the problem is some players who have done reasonably well elsewhere (Solder and Remmers as an OT are the prime examples here, and at times Zeitler and Janoris Jenkins, too) look like garbage as G-men.
And going the other way, some guys who didn't do so well here (Weston Richburg, Marshall Newhouse, Landon Collins, Dwayne Harris, maybe Matt LaCosse when healthy and Nat Berhe and a couple others) look at least serviceable elsewhere.
The two coaching staffs since Coughlin was dismissed have absolutely sucked donkey balls. And that's on Mara, not Gettleman.
There isn't a single player on this team to whom I would give another Â
to bang the drum for his point of view. 1. Mara ain’t selling and 2. He ain’t turning the entire organization over to a HC that will tell him and a GM to get lost. Not happening, so the question is: how does this get fixed within the constructs of how the Giants do business?
RE: There isn't a single player on this team to whom I would give another Â
to bang the drum for his point of view. 1. Mara ain’t selling and 2. He ain’t turning the entire organization over to a HC that will tell him and a GM to get lost. Not happening, so the question is: how does this get fixed within the constructs of how the Giants do business?
In those constructs? Well, it's been 8 years and they're moving backwards. So - what do you consider the two Mara's life expectancy to be, and we can work backwards from there.
but there are pieces to build with. The problem is they didn't start tearing down until mid-season last year. It doesn't matter who the GM is, they need more time to restock (pending the restock not being completely blown). With the dead cap being relieved and more high draft picks the future can start to look brighter..just not with this coaching staff, you know it's bad when the announcers say how the coach should be calling plays..Shurmur is a career position coach/coordinator. I'm not as done with Gettleman as most but he really needs to hit it out of the park this offseason in FA and hiring a competent coach or it'll be like this for an extra few years.
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
There's talent on every single roster in the NFL. The Giants have picked top 10 multiple times in the last handful of years. They've picked top 6 2 consecutive. They had 3 first round picks last year. Of course there is "talent"
But we have a real QB to build around. One reason I only want Shurmur axed and a coordinator elevated to HC is I'd hate to see all these young guys go through a total overhaul and change process. Makes it tough to have a winning season next year. Then again we may not really have an option right?
My gut tells me we go and get an NFL coordinator as our next HC. But how often does a new HC keep the previous regime's coaches and system? Never!
Shurmur just isn't head coach material and his record reflects that. I mean, we do have a shot at the #1 pick in the draft if the Bengals and Miami can win again and we lose out. SMH.
But we have poor overall personnell. I'm really hoping Saquon Barkley finishes strong and shows his injury held him back more than anything else. The vision issues we are seeing now have me gritting my teeth.
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
Those guys actually contributed.
And those guys were on really good rosters where they could contribute.
Did they MAKE the team talented? No. But they contributed. Latimer can do the same and he has had plenty of good plays, including today. We need depth guys like that. I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
I don't know if you realize what a difference that is from there to here, but he needs a little time to develop but he has some raw talent.
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
Look at Justin Tuck's rookie numbers. Also a third round pick. Good thing we didn't give up on him.
Same with Osi Umenyiora. Raw talent guys that we were patient with. We made a living off guys like this for a while.
Tuck was a highly touted player from a premiere program
who slipped to the 3rd round due to injury.
Osi had sick measurables but came from a small school. Osi was blocked by Strahan and Kenny Holmes, so he rotated in and had limited opportunity. Ditto for Tuck later with Strahan and Osi.
Ximines is close to neither. He has all the opportunity to make some kind of impact, and he's been nowhere to be found.
Look, you're going to counter me at every turn and never give an inch Â
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
Also, time for us to go back to a 4-3 with the new staff.... Â
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
You can like the roster - but you're not basing it on anything but wishes. Ximines has been invisible this year, and he's not the only one.
Ogletree has been horrendous - and they pay him $10M a year, on top of trading a 4th and a 6th for him.
Winning teams don't do this. That's why the Giants look as bad as they are - they're a poorly managed, poorly coached collection of misfit parts. Inefficient use of resources has made this roster uneven and extremely weak at more than one position. That's on the GM as much as the coach, and until this team gets serious about revamping the way they do business from the top to the bottom of the house, all Giants fans will be able to do is dream of a winning season.
RE: Look, you're going to counter me at every turn and never give an inch Â
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
The Browns are a perfect example of the difference - they do have some talent. And at times they do flash and their players will put together a string of good plays and show some impressive individual performances.
You don't see that out of the Giants, because they're bereft of talent.
RE: RE: Look, you're going to counter me at every turn and never give an inch Â
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
I get the thinking on Ogletree, I just think with the right guys around him he'd look much better. Like the offensive line, lacking a superstar, all pro type, the LB's need to function as a unit. Ogletree isn't a one man wrecking crew, but I do think he could be a nice piece to a unit.
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
RE: That's a recurring theme to your thinking Britt Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
It seems to me that a coaches job is to instill confidence in young players by putting them in positions to succeed. This is often done by recognizing where their talent lies and reinforcing it through tailored schemes.
Our coaches are ruining careers here, they are not inspiring, they are not pro-active or even reactive...they simply call plays with no sense of the flow of the game or of situational success.
Its hard to tell how good our roster is...it will take a better coach to assess that.
we need A LOT of guys. That's the situation we were left with, which Dave Gettlman walked into. A LOT of guys were needed.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
You repeating I think there should be an All Pro at every position isn't going to magically make it something I've said. That's a weird, nonsensical thing to repeat.
Coming into today the Giants:
- Had one player in the top 50 in the NFL in catches - TE Evan Engram
- The highest WR was 70th - Golden Tate
- The Giants didn't have a WR in the top 60 in yards, Slayton and Tate were both lower than 60th
- At 48th in the league, Slayton leads the Giants in yards per target
The Giants have fragile WR in Shepard, an aging reliable but inefficient player in Tate, and a rookie with upside in Slayton.
Latimer is a fringe NFL player who's a risk to not be in the league.
Enough with the "clean house" bullshit from some of you posters Â
We just cleaned house and part of why we are 2-10 right now is because the massive amount of dead cap space that has resulted from cleaning house. Clean house again and we'll still be in this situation.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
We just cleaned house and part of why we are 2-10 right now is because the massive amount of dead cap space that has resulted from cleaning house. Clean house again and we'll still be in this situation.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I agree, Shurmur has shown to be a "loser" as a HC. Some guys have it, some don't. He is a good OC or Quality Offense guy type but he clearly doesn't command a team.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
We just cleaned house and part of why we are 2-10 right now is because the massive amount of dead cap space that has resulted from cleaning house. Clean house again and we'll still be in this situation.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I agree, Shurmur has shown to be a "loser" as a HC. Some guys have it, some don't. He is a good OC or Quality Offense guy type but he clearly doesn't command a team.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
RE: RE: That's a recurring theme to your thinking Britt Â
everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.
For a failure this colossal the guy who hired him Â
Yeah, the roster is fantastic. I'm looking forward to an offseason of 'just give Gettleman another OL rebuild and this time he'll get it right'.
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Strong rookie class outside of Baker. Barkley. And what?
We have the worst front 7 in football. Not one top shelf talent on defense. Every unit has problems and a severe lack of talent. The LB unit is the worst in football. Pass rush? Awful. Bottom of the league talent.
OL is below average.
Thankfully, we have Jones. He gives us some hope but the roster needs to be flipped. Long road to average. When they get there, very few on this roster will be on the team.
Ximines and Ogletree made that list. That alone should tell you something.
The Giants don't have a below average WR group, they have a terrible group.
Shepard's entered a state of career fragility, and cannot be counted on to be available.
Tate is the same reliable, but unremarkable player he's been for a half dozen years.
Slayton is a real bright spot, but has unreliable hands and is a frequent body catcher.
It's absolutely laughable the leader in catches is a tight end who has missed what, 4 games?
Barkley
Hernandez
Zeitler
Slayton
Shephard
Latimer
Smith (rookie TE)
Lawrence
Williams
Golden
Ximines
Connolly
Ogletree
Baker
Peppers
I like the way these guys play and I think there is a young core to build around there.
Britt, I like you, I actually like your optimism, so don't change! ;)
Unfortunately I can't travel this road with you. There are 8 players (exactly half) of the one you listed, that IMO are not quality NFL starters and wont become one in the future.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
I was against it a few weeks ago but a new voice is needed to correct, this pertains to offense and defense.
Just like SF 2 years ago there is a nice core here on defense. A pass rushing monster like Chase Young or Clowney would bring an identity. If the Cowboys do a full change in staff I would love to hire Kris Richards at DC. Richards is the former DC from Seattle and was instrumental in the formation of the Legion of Boom.
Outside of Barkley The offense has alot of 2 tier position players, these guys will only get better if Jones elevates to the next level. To execute this, I don't believe we need another re-haul on oline, I prefer and value a offense that gells so I would like to see the team target an upgrade at RT only.
One factor that definitely shows that coaching is the problem is some players who have done reasonably well elsewhere (Solder and Remmers as an OT are the prime examples here, and at times Zeitler and Janoris Jenkins, too) look like garbage as G-men.
And going the other way, some guys who didn't do so well here (Weston Richburg, Marshall Newhouse, Landon Collins, Dwayne Harris, maybe Matt LaCosse when healthy and Nat Berhe and a couple others) look at least serviceable elsewhere.
The two coaching staffs since Coughlin was dismissed have absolutely sucked donkey balls. And that's on Mara, not Gettleman.
But as ever, "hope" is not reality.
I'll say it again, worst Giants roster I've seen in 33 years as a fan. Gettleman is a failure.
Quote:
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
But as ever, "hope" is not reality.
I'll say it again, worst Giants roster I've seen in 33 years as a fan. Gettleman is a failure.
Not sure I think its fair to make that assessment after only 2 seasons.
In those constructs? Well, it's been 8 years and they're moving backwards. So - what do you consider the two Mara's life expectancy to be, and we can work backwards from there.
Which roster in the NFL would you take the Giants roster over, Britt?
I'd love to hear it. If you like the Giants roster, I'd be interested to hear which rosters you don't like in the NFL
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
There's talent on every single roster in the NFL. The Giants have picked top 10 multiple times in the last handful of years. They've picked top 6 2 consecutive. They had 3 first round picks last year. Of course there is "talent"
But we have a real QB to build around. One reason I only want Shurmur axed and a coordinator elevated to HC is I'd hate to see all these young guys go through a total overhaul and change process. Makes it tough to have a winning season next year. Then again we may not really have an option right?
My gut tells me we go and get an NFL coordinator as our next HC. But how often does a new HC keep the previous regime's coaches and system? Never!
Shurmur just isn't head coach material and his record reflects that. I mean, we do have a shot at the #1 pick in the draft if the Bengals and Miami can win again and we lose out. SMH.
But we have poor overall personnell. I'm really hoping Saquon Barkley finishes strong and shows his injury held him back more than anything else. The vision issues we are seeing now have me gritting my teeth.
Quote:
In comment 14697970 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
Those guys actually contributed.
Quote:
I don't know if you realize what a difference that is from there to here, but he needs a little time to develop but he has some raw talent.
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
Look at Justin Tuck's rookie numbers. Also a third round pick. Good thing we didn't give up on him.
Same with Osi Umenyiora. Raw talent guys that we were patient with. We made a living off guys like this for a while.
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
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In comment 14697989 christian said:
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In comment 14697970 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't get that our WR's are weak. Tate, Shephard, Slayton, Lattimer... Add a big body guy and we'll be good.
Each position group has a guy or two there. A couple of nice additions and this roster could round out quickly.
Oh Britt, you almost got us until the Latimer stuff. Good one, dude really.
Only another 150 yards for Latimer to hit 1000 yards -- for his 6 year career.
You know, you don't have to be an all pro to be a good contributor.
Bear Pascoe, Jake Ballard, Kevin Boss, Henry Hynoski, Domenik Hixon... They weren't career stats leaders but they were good contributors.
Kevin Boss had double the career yards. Hixon in his one year as part time starter had double the yards Latimer has had in any career year. Jake Ballard in his one year as a starter had more TDs that Latimer has had in his career.
Those guys actually contributed.
And those guys were on really good rosters where they could contribute.
Did they MAKE the team talented? No. But they contributed. Latimer can do the same and he has had plenty of good plays, including today. We need depth guys like that. I'm sorry you think everybody should be an all pro at every position, but that's not the reality of building an NFL roster. Maybe that's the disconnect here.
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In comment 14697977 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't know if you realize what a difference that is from there to here, but he needs a little time to develop but he has some raw talent.
And you're wishing for that raw talent to turn into something, since we haven't seen anything from him this season.
What's that old expression, wish in one hand, shit in another, see which gets filled first?
Look at Justin Tuck's rookie numbers. Also a third round pick. Good thing we didn't give up on him.
Same with Osi Umenyiora. Raw talent guys that we were patient with. We made a living off guys like this for a while.
Tuck was a highly touted player from a premiere program
who slipped to the 3rd round due to injury.
Osi had sick measurables but came from a small school. Osi was blocked by Strahan and Kenny Holmes, so he rotated in and had limited opportunity. Ditto for Tuck later with Strahan and Osi.
Ximines is close to neither. He has all the opportunity to make some kind of impact, and he's been nowhere to be found.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
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their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
You can like the roster - but you're not basing it on anything but wishes. Ximines has been invisible this year, and he's not the only one.
Ogletree has been horrendous - and they pay him $10M a year, on top of trading a 4th and a 6th for him.
Winning teams don't do this. That's why the Giants look as bad as they are - they're a poorly managed, poorly coached collection of misfit parts. Inefficient use of resources has made this roster uneven and extremely weak at more than one position. That's on the GM as much as the coach, and until this team gets serious about revamping the way they do business from the top to the bottom of the house, all Giants fans will be able to do is dream of a winning season.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
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In comment 14698019 Dave on the UWS said:
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their emotions for a second will say there is talent on this roster. Now are theses players they can win with? Who the hell knows? The coaching is so bad it’s impossible to know
It has nothing to do with emotions, and everything to do with evidence. Talented players don't just go into a shell because they have a bad coach. They might not perform up to their ability, but they don't combine to play like the worst team in the league.
This isn't a talented roster, no matter how much the hopeful want to convince themselves otherwise. That doesn't acquit Shurmur, who's bad in his own right. It just extends the accountability over the guy who decided that a team with no pass rushers in 2019 was a good idea.
You’re under estimating the value coaching brings to a team.
Everyone had the Browns pegged as a sexy SB pick before the season. Everyone drooled over their talent. They’re on the outside looking in for the playoffs.
The right coach can turn this around. The team will get better in FA. They will certainly get better in the draft.
The Browns are a perfect example of the difference - they do have some talent. And at times they do flash and their players will put together a string of good plays and show some impressive individual performances.
You don't see that out of the Giants, because they're bereft of talent.
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That's fine.
I like the roster. I think there are pieces to build on. Hopefully the next coach, sooner than later, will be able to utilize it.
Britt,
I tend to agree that there are a good bunch of younger players that look to make up a good core. We have lots of rookies on the field at the same time. The only team with rookies playing more may be the Raiders.
Don’t let these guys get to you. One guy I think needs to go is Ogletree. He doesn’t know how to tackle and takes pretty bad angles. I like Carter but think he is playing hurt right now.
I get the thinking on Ogletree, I just think with the right guys around him he'd look much better. Like the offensive line, lacking a superstar, all pro type, the LB's need to function as a unit. Ogletree isn't a one man wrecking crew, but I do think he could be a nice piece to a unit.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
Our coaches are ruining careers here, they are not inspiring, they are not pro-active or even reactive...they simply call plays with no sense of the flow of the game or of situational success.
Its hard to tell how good our roster is...it will take a better coach to assess that.
We're still putting them together. Some are good, some will just be depth, but it takes 53 guys to build a roster and we're working on putting it together still.
But there are guys that are emerging and guys that we hope will emerge. And we will keep adding to it.
You repeating I think there should be an All Pro at every position isn't going to magically make it something I've said. That's a weird, nonsensical thing to repeat.
Coming into today the Giants:
- Had one player in the top 50 in the NFL in catches - TE Evan Engram
- The highest WR was 70th - Golden Tate
- The Giants didn't have a WR in the top 60 in yards, Slayton and Tate were both lower than 60th
- At 48th in the league, Slayton leads the Giants in yards per target
The Giants have fragile WR in Shepard, an aging reliable but inefficient player in Tate, and a rookie with upside in Slayton.
Latimer is a fringe NFL player who's a risk to not be in the league.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
I completely believe we need to get rid of Shurmur. And the roster is certainly sub-par, but it's also a very young roster and we do have pieces to build off of. If you can't see that then you're just being bitter.
Cleaning house means we just start all over and then we're at least another 2-3 years from even hoping to be a .500 football team. Some nice pieces that are on the current roster + The right moves with the newly freed up cap space in 2020 + the right new coach who can breathe life into this boring ass franchise = all of a sudden maybe we're at least playing meaningful football in December 2020 and maybe even make the playoffs in 2021. Other teams have turned around their shit within 2 years and there's no reason the Giants can't do it with the right moves.
Gettleman has made some good moves, some bad, but I think he deserves a 3rd year with a full wallet of spending $. But Shurmur is a loser and he needs to be gone.
Also I don't buy the idea floating around that giving DG another year but with a different coach isn't fair to DG, rather I think about 80% of the available NFL-caliber coaches out there would be better in their 1st year than Shurmur would be in his 3rd year.
I'd love for the Giants to be able to promote a coordinator to HC and keep the systems in place on both sides of the ball. Just cut Shurmur and move someone up but that is really wishful thinking on my part.
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everyone can't be an individual contributor, a finishing piece.
Yes, every NFL roster has a bunch of JAGs. You can't have an entire roster full of them. Right now, that's the Giants to a T.
Ogletree was on a good D with solid coaching - who thought it was time to move on from him. He's not making the Giants any better, and having low expectations from him at that cost is part of their problem.
Jcn, it doesn't take you long to see a player's ceiling.
You're right, there's just not enough out there on Ogletree to figure he's overpaid and not very good. Let's give him another 5 years.