We all know what the general narrative has been:
On a bad team, he has shown a lot of positive signs to give us confidence the Giants have their QB of the future.
But compared to what he showed in training camp, pre-season and his very first start down in Tampa, he has dampened that early enthusiasm quite a lot, and has left open the question:
Will he be a real difference-maker under Center, or a decent game manager so long as he has a strong supporting cast? Or, something else?
Bottom line: So far, he is NOT the phenom we were all drooling over (along with the media) 3-4 months ago, and whether or not he ever becomes one is very much up in the air (no pun intended.)
Unfortunately, Gettleman ain’t George Young, Shurmur ain’t Ray Perkins (let alone Parcells), and nobody is Lawrence Taylor.
He went on to Duke and was an average QB in the trashy ACC
He's a below average NFL QB as of now.
I don't see how and why people think he'll be anything great or anything close to it.
He's an average QB that has the potential to be average
If he played for any other team, we'd call him an overrated bust. But he plays for the team we love, so yall somehow see greatness
That's a feat of strength very few QB's in the country could accomplish. Haskins couldn't done it, neither could Murray.
Try again.
I don't know if intelligence is his problem. He is woefully inconsistent. He is not accurate. He makes the same mistakes over and over. He gets rattled at times and plays too fast. Yes, sometimes he looks fantastic. But he is not consistent enough to be an NFL starting QB. I do worry that Jones will be this kind of QB.
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In comment 14698285 Go Terps said:
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Few yards per pass, lots of negative plays and turnovers, the offense struggles to get past 20 points, and he's lost 8 out of 10 starts.
It's basically the same level of performance that got Eli benched.
There are some things to like, but the numbers are what they are. To paint them in a good light requires a lot of rationalizing and excuses.
JFC. I think you're almost hoping he fails so you're right.
Terps liked Jones before the draft and liked the pick when they made it (with the caveat that it came with Eli being cut). I remember that distinctly.
Yeah, me too. I don't know how many awful seasons it will take before Giants fans stop assigning bad motives to other Giants fans who are critical or wary of average-to-bad performers.
He went on to Duke and was an average QB in the trashy ACC
He's a below average NFL QB as of now.
I don't see how and why people think he'll be anything great or anything close to it.
He's an average QB that has the potential to be average
If he played for any other team, we'd call him an overrated bust. But he plays for the team we love, so yall somehow see greatness
they do see something "special" which is out of line with his overall performance so far. There have been flashes and some reasons for hope, but if there is an elite talent out there we should consider it.
That's a feat of strength very few QB's in the country could accomplish. Haskins couldn't done it, neither could Murray.
Try again.
Some of you are having a difficult time wrapping your heads around the "range of outcomes" concept.
There's the word narrative again. Crutch.
No one is saying he sucks, dump him. The question is whether a new regime should be given the freedom to look for someone else if they see fit.
If they want to move forward with Jones, that's fine too.
the fumbling was the main issue and that was fixable.
shaky OLine, star rb missed most of the season as did many of his primary targets. and he's a rookie - you guys are friggin ridiculous
Unfortunately, some of the people parading around BBI as "football geniuses" have no clue what rookie QBs look like.
Friggin ridiculous is the nicest way to put it.
Take Two: Well I have to give it to them. But now he should play every game of his rookie year. its the only way
Take Three: But Jints Central will never let him play.So cemented to Eli. Gettleman will never let him play. We will miss a whole year of development while the team is not going anywhere anyway in 2019. So stupid.
Take Four: Always said he had talent
Take Five: He's playing like a rookie
Take Six: Giants suck. Jints Central. Its as plain as day. He makes mistakes and this guy is so inconsistent on some plays ...just like a rookie.
Take Seven: DG needs to go. He wastes too many draft choices. We need to hurry straight to a winning team as fast as possible
Take Eight: Gotta consider replacing him with another draft pick.
Take Nine: Anyone who says anything different is clearly inconsistent
How did Goff look year 1 to year 2 ? And I dont think hes an amazing QB by any stretch.
Jones has flashed almost every major characteristic you want in a top QB. Nothing is guaranteed but he looks to be the goods once he matures a bit.
Is Burrow that much better of a prospect to pass up the opportunity to draft a potential game changing pass rusher?
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me crazy, but I'm still very high on Daniel Jones. I think he can be special.
How did Goff look year 1 to year 2 ? And I dont think hes an amazing QB by any stretch.
Jones has flashed almost every major characteristic you want in a top QB. Nothing is guaranteed but he looks to be the goods once he matures a bit.
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me crazy, but I'm still very high on Daniel Jones. I think he can be special.
How did Goff look year 1 to year 2 ? And I dont think hes an amazing QB by any stretch.
Jones has flashed almost every major characteristic you want in a top QB. Nothing is guaranteed but he looks to be the goods once he matures a bit.
Using Goff as an example isn't good. He got McVay and the Rams would rush to line and McVay would be in his ear telling him what to do constantly. It was harder to do this on road so his home road splits are insane. Now defenses have figured it out and muddled coverages until the 15 second mark. Not something you'll hear on ESPN, but that the deal.
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To me the key question is this: had Jones's been good enough for the Giants to discount drafting Burrow at #1 or #2 overall? I think the answer to that question is no.
Is Burrow that much better of a prospect to pass up the opportunity to draft a potential game changing pass rusher?
From where I'm standing now, probably not. However, I'm not making the decision. Look at it this way:
If Matt Rhule says in an interview that he favors drafting Burrow and trading Jones, should Rhule be disqualified from the job?
I never suggested getting rid of Jones. Granted, I've been skeptical since we selected him, but I've kept an open mind.
But there are some statistical signs that are troubling the last two months.
Exactly. I'm not looking to throw the guy away, and I'm not giving up on him. I'm just saying I'm not liking what I'm seeing now, and the new regime (hopefully) will have autonomy to go in a different direction if they see fit.
Remember: Goff and Wentz got their contracts after year 3. We're already only 2 years away from that with Jones. I understand he's a rookie, but even through that lense I'm not seeing what I want to see from a guy that might be asking for a massive raise in 2 years. That's the question a competent GM should already be asking.
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To me the key question is this: had Jones's been good enough for the Giants to discount drafting Burrow at #1 or #2 overall? I think the answer to that question is no.
Is Burrow that much better of a prospect to pass up the opportunity to draft a potential game changing pass rusher?
From where I'm standing now, probably not. However, I'm not making the decision. Look at it this way:
If Matt Rhule says in an interview that he favors drafting Burrow and trading Jones, should Rhule be disqualified from the job?
I don’t think you’ll find too many that disagree with you there. The pushback is that you’ve been banging the drum (which just about the whole board will agree on now I’d imagine) that:
- Shurmur is a horrific HC. Possibly the worst in the league.
- The roster has been poorly managed from the draft choices they’ve made to the money allocated to dead cap, washed up vets like Solder and Eli to sit on the bench
If you take that into account it should be no surprise that Jones wouldn’t be taking the league by storm unless you believe that QB play and statistics are independent from coaching and surrounding talent.
At best, we don't know what Jones is. The reasons for that are multifold, but the fact remains.
I want to see Jones succeed here, but I want the Giants to become a good team more. I read someone today say that any candidate that won't accept Jones as the quarterback shouldn't be considered. That's a problem, and I don't discount the possibility of Mara taking that stance if he's smart enough to fire Gettleman.
We'll need to have a whole shit ton of patience with Daniel Jones, like it or not, like him or not. It'll take him three years to get it together if he's lucky, and four if he's only sort of lucky. We'll all just have to wait it out and hope he progresses, and that means there will be some good days and some very, very bad ones. Buckle up.
And because of this, we both have to chill out a little bit and think about our impending rebuild strategically. While our defense is atrocious (to the point of embarrassingly bad), I actually think OL is the bigger priority for 2020, largely due to the obligation to protect our high 2019 draft-pick investment who is currently playing under (a very bad) center.
Does Jones have ball security issues? Yup. But the dude's a gamer, and he has the ability to stick it in tight spots that others don't dare try. You can teach him how to protect the ball better, but you can't teach him to deliver fastballs quite like that. That means he's got some great upside and a high ceiling, and that shows you just how nicely I've learned how to use those catchphrases from NFL scouts who actually know what they're talking about.
So I'm in favor of giving the rookie a whole ton of slack, chalking up this putrid season as a learning experience for him, and concentrating on how to build up a team around him - and not around Saquon Barkley, who's a great guy and a good ball carrier, but not the one who's going to take us to the playoffs in 2021. That's going to have to be Daniel Jones, and we'd all just better get used to it.
He's a darn rookie on a horrible team. I just want him to get reps and come out of this season healthy.
And he will still be on a learning curve next year. Like, notice how much better Lamar Jackson is in year two. Ditto Allen in Buffalo
Lastly, the LSU QB hasn't yet faced adversity or dealt with a poor supporting cast- a huge differentiator in the NFL since outside of Brady; a Qb will have years with supporting cast injuries if not outright holes in the roster. That's a huge risk factor...he may be fine or he may take awhile to adjust. New QB's are risks
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And like every other young QB, he'll be made or broken by the program he's in. If he has crap targets, a crap line, and crap coaching -- it's almost as if you can just guess he'll never develop into a good player. Crazy, right?
They look at it this way - Gettleman did a great job getting Jones.
Nailing the QB position, and getting the best RB since Jim Brown, carries significant weight over the misses.
That's my interpretation.
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
"you see flashes of greatness"?? you also see flashes of terrible play.. which one is he? most likely not great.
There are significant concerns about Burrow. I like what I see - more than I like what I saw with Jones at Duke - but I'm not sure he's quite the top ten/can't miss guy.
He's a better candidate than Haskins, but they both have that one key issue - having the one great year playing with upper echelon talent.
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That would easily answer this question is How many rookie QBS would look better than Jones in the situation he is in? Would Joe Burrow come in with this supporting cast and make us a good offense? Would Wilson go to the playoffs his rookie year if he was on this team? Both answers are no and the first answer is not many. The kid is in a bad situation. One that made a 2 time superbowl MVP look incompetent most of the time. Give him time and well all see what he is. But he isnt going anywhere you can bank on that
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
Why is it illogical all Im saying is hes in a shitty situation that not many first year qbs would excel in. Dont get how that was misinterpreted
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In comment 14698805 Bleedblue10 said:
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That would easily answer this question is How many rookie QBS would look better than Jones in the situation he is in? Would Joe Burrow come in with this supporting cast and make us a good offense? Would Wilson go to the playoffs his rookie year if he was on this team? Both answers are no and the first answer is not many. The kid is in a bad situation. One that made a 2 time superbowl MVP look incompetent most of the time. Give him time and well all see what he is. But he isnt going anywhere you can bank on that
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
Why is it illogical all Im saying is hes in a shitty situation that not many first year qbs would excel in. Dont get how that was misinterpreted
the vast majority of qbs who play badly in a shitty situation don't turn into russell wilson.
That's a feat of strength very few QB's in the country could accomplish. Haskins couldn't done it, neither could Murray.
Try again.
Dude, every team in college gets a bowl game now days. The buzz around the city is that 7-5 UNC Charlotte football team made the Bahamas bowl
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In comment 14698812 AndyMilligan said:
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In comment 14698805 Bleedblue10 said:
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That would easily answer this question is How many rookie QBS would look better than Jones in the situation he is in? Would Joe Burrow come in with this supporting cast and make us a good offense? Would Wilson go to the playoffs his rookie year if he was on this team? Both answers are no and the first answer is not many. The kid is in a bad situation. One that made a 2 time superbowl MVP look incompetent most of the time. Give him time and well all see what he is. But he isnt going anywhere you can bank on that
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
Why is it illogical all Im saying is hes in a shitty situation that not many first year qbs would excel in. Dont get how that was misinterpreted
the vast majority of qbs who play badly in a shitty situation don't turn into russell wilson.
Im not saying he will im simply asking if Wilson(who we could only pray Jones becomes as good a player one day) wouldve lit up the league playing for this specific team.
Rome wasn't built in a day and you can literally count on one hand the number of QB's that arrived in the NFL as star players.
They're 5-7.
Miss #2.
Don't spin the damn narrative that the kid isn't good and expect a 1st or 2nd round pick for him. If what you are saying is true this team will get a bag of balls for him. That's it.
1. Maybe the worst offensive line in the league
2. Maybe the worst play calling coach in the league (per BBI)
3. He has had a backup TE for many of his starts
4. He really does not have a #1 WR and his decent #2 WRs have been hurt on a rotational basis.
5. The defense sucks so he as been playing from behind in too many must pass situations.
Meanwhile...
1. He throws an accurate ball
2. He stands in there and take his hits
3. He has moved the chains for us with his legs.
4. He may be responsible for the two wins that we have.
5. Most of our losses were not his fault.
6. He is a rookie
What did I miss?
Nothing!
They're 5-7.
Miss #2.
I'll let you in on a little secret - Duke had played in bowl games in each of the four seasons prior to Jones being installed as starting QB (2012-15). They were 27-13 in the three seasons before Jones and 19-19 under Jones, so enough with the "poor Daniel Jones was stuck with an awful team!" narrative.
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except Duke.
They're 5-7.
Miss #2.
I'll let you in on a little secret - Duke had played in bowl games in each of the four seasons prior to Jones being installed as starting QB (2012-15). They were 27-13 in the three seasons before Jones and 19-19 under Jones, so enough with the "poor Daniel Jones was stuck with an awful team!" narrative.
Those teams actually had some NFL talent. Crowder, Tomlinson, Renfree and former Giant great Ross Cockrell were all drafted. No one Jones played with was drafted.
Turnovers: 21
Completion %: 61.6
Yards ([passing & rushing]-yards lost in sacks): 2,352 (NOTE: he's lost more yards in sacks {263} than he's gained rushing {241})
Yards/Pass Attempt: 6.4 (this ranks 31st in NFL ahead of only Mason Rudolph and Mitch Trubisky)
Net Yards/Pass Attempt: 5.24 (33rd in NFL ahead of only Kyle Allen)
Since Jones has taken over the Giants have averaged 19.9 points scored per game. And of course the W-L record is 2-8, with 8 losses in a row.
How much of that is Jones's fault is absolutely up to debate: he's saddled by garbage on the field, on the sideline, and in the front office. Blaming everything on him is completely unfair.
But it's equally unfair, based on the story the numbers tell, to call Jones promising or even potentially special as some have. That hasn't borne out either.
He's a rookie who has mostly played like a rookie, albeit under adverse conditions. I wouldn't have any problem with a new coach and GM deciding that he's shown enough to stick with him, but neither would I have a problem with moving on from him.
Very true...