We all know what the general narrative has been:
On a bad team, he has shown a lot of positive signs to give us confidence the Giants have their QB of the future.
But compared to what he showed in training camp, pre-season and his very first start down in Tampa, he has dampened that early enthusiasm quite a lot, and has left open the question:
Will he be a real difference-maker under Center, or a decent game manager so long as he has a strong supporting cast? Or, something else?
Bottom line: So far, he is NOT the phenom we were all drooling over (along with the media) 3-4 months ago, and whether or not he ever becomes one is very much up in the air (no pun intended.)
Exactly. I'm not looking to throw the guy away, and I'm not giving up on him. I'm just saying I'm not liking what I'm seeing now, and the new regime (hopefully) will have autonomy to go in a different direction if they see fit.
Remember: Goff and Wentz got their contracts after year 3. We're already only 2 years away from that with Jones. I understand he's a rookie, but even through that lense I'm not seeing what I want to see from a guy that might be asking for a massive raise in 2 years. That's the question a competent GM should already be asking.
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To me the key question is this: had Jones's been good enough for the Giants to discount drafting Burrow at #1 or #2 overall? I think the answer to that question is no.
Is Burrow that much better of a prospect to pass up the opportunity to draft a potential game changing pass rusher?
From where I'm standing now, probably not. However, I'm not making the decision. Look at it this way:
If Matt Rhule says in an interview that he favors drafting Burrow and trading Jones, should Rhule be disqualified from the job?
I don’t think you’ll find too many that disagree with you there. The pushback is that you’ve been banging the drum (which just about the whole board will agree on now I’d imagine) that:
- Shurmur is a horrific HC. Possibly the worst in the league.
- The roster has been poorly managed from the draft choices they’ve made to the money allocated to dead cap, washed up vets like Solder and Eli to sit on the bench
If you take that into account it should be no surprise that Jones wouldn’t be taking the league by storm unless you believe that QB play and statistics are independent from coaching and surrounding talent.
At best, we don't know what Jones is. The reasons for that are multifold, but the fact remains.
I want to see Jones succeed here, but I want the Giants to become a good team more. I read someone today say that any candidate that won't accept Jones as the quarterback shouldn't be considered. That's a problem, and I don't discount the possibility of Mara taking that stance if he's smart enough to fire Gettleman.
We'll need to have a whole shit ton of patience with Daniel Jones, like it or not, like him or not. It'll take him three years to get it together if he's lucky, and four if he's only sort of lucky. We'll all just have to wait it out and hope he progresses, and that means there will be some good days and some very, very bad ones. Buckle up.
And because of this, we both have to chill out a little bit and think about our impending rebuild strategically. While our defense is atrocious (to the point of embarrassingly bad), I actually think OL is the bigger priority for 2020, largely due to the obligation to protect our high 2019 draft-pick investment who is currently playing under (a very bad) center.
Does Jones have ball security issues? Yup. But the dude's a gamer, and he has the ability to stick it in tight spots that others don't dare try. You can teach him how to protect the ball better, but you can't teach him to deliver fastballs quite like that. That means he's got some great upside and a high ceiling, and that shows you just how nicely I've learned how to use those catchphrases from NFL scouts who actually know what they're talking about.
So I'm in favor of giving the rookie a whole ton of slack, chalking up this putrid season as a learning experience for him, and concentrating on how to build up a team around him - and not around Saquon Barkley, who's a great guy and a good ball carrier, but not the one who's going to take us to the playoffs in 2021. That's going to have to be Daniel Jones, and we'd all just better get used to it.
He's a darn rookie on a horrible team. I just want him to get reps and come out of this season healthy.
And he will still be on a learning curve next year. Like, notice how much better Lamar Jackson is in year two. Ditto Allen in Buffalo
Lastly, the LSU QB hasn't yet faced adversity or dealt with a poor supporting cast- a huge differentiator in the NFL since outside of Brady; a Qb will have years with supporting cast injuries if not outright holes in the roster. That's a huge risk factor...he may be fine or he may take awhile to adjust. New QB's are risks
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And like every other young QB, he'll be made or broken by the program he's in. If he has crap targets, a crap line, and crap coaching -- it's almost as if you can just guess he'll never develop into a good player. Crazy, right?
They look at it this way - Gettleman did a great job getting Jones.
Nailing the QB position, and getting the best RB since Jim Brown, carries significant weight over the misses.
That's my interpretation.
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
"you see flashes of greatness"?? you also see flashes of terrible play.. which one is he? most likely not great.
There are significant concerns about Burrow. I like what I see - more than I like what I saw with Jones at Duke - but I'm not sure he's quite the top ten/can't miss guy.
He's a better candidate than Haskins, but they both have that one key issue - having the one great year playing with upper echelon talent.
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That would easily answer this question is How many rookie QBS would look better than Jones in the situation he is in? Would Joe Burrow come in with this supporting cast and make us a good offense? Would Wilson go to the playoffs his rookie year if he was on this team? Both answers are no and the first answer is not many. The kid is in a bad situation. One that made a 2 time superbowl MVP look incompetent most of the time. Give him time and well all see what he is. But he isnt going anywhere you can bank on that
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
Why is it illogical all Im saying is hes in a shitty situation that not many first year qbs would excel in. Dont get how that was misinterpreted
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In comment 14698805 Bleedblue10 said:
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That would easily answer this question is How many rookie QBS would look better than Jones in the situation he is in? Would Joe Burrow come in with this supporting cast and make us a good offense? Would Wilson go to the playoffs his rookie year if he was on this team? Both answers are no and the first answer is not many. The kid is in a bad situation. One that made a 2 time superbowl MVP look incompetent most of the time. Give him time and well all see what he is. But he isnt going anywhere you can bank on that
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
Why is it illogical all Im saying is hes in a shitty situation that not many first year qbs would excel in. Dont get how that was misinterpreted
the vast majority of qbs who play badly in a shitty situation don't turn into russell wilson.
That's a feat of strength very few QB's in the country could accomplish. Haskins couldn't done it, neither could Murray.
Try again.
Dude, every team in college gets a bowl game now days. The buzz around the city is that 7-5 UNC Charlotte football team made the Bahamas bowl
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In comment 14698812 AndyMilligan said:
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In comment 14698805 Bleedblue10 said:
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That would easily answer this question is How many rookie QBS would look better than Jones in the situation he is in? Would Joe Burrow come in with this supporting cast and make us a good offense? Would Wilson go to the playoffs his rookie year if he was on this team? Both answers are no and the first answer is not many. The kid is in a bad situation. One that made a 2 time superbowl MVP look incompetent most of the time. Give him time and well all see what he is. But he isnt going anywhere you can bank on that
this is illogical. First, we don't know what Wilson would do as a rookie here. But more importantly it is illogical to say a great QB would be bad too so it is ok if our QB looks bad. Most QBs who play poorly don't turn into Russell Wilson.
Why is it illogical all Im saying is hes in a shitty situation that not many first year qbs would excel in. Dont get how that was misinterpreted
the vast majority of qbs who play badly in a shitty situation don't turn into russell wilson.
Im not saying he will im simply asking if Wilson(who we could only pray Jones becomes as good a player one day) wouldve lit up the league playing for this specific team.
Rome wasn't built in a day and you can literally count on one hand the number of QB's that arrived in the NFL as star players.
They're 5-7.
Miss #2.
Don't spin the damn narrative that the kid isn't good and expect a 1st or 2nd round pick for him. If what you are saying is true this team will get a bag of balls for him. That's it.
1. Maybe the worst offensive line in the league
2. Maybe the worst play calling coach in the league (per BBI)
3. He has had a backup TE for many of his starts
4. He really does not have a #1 WR and his decent #2 WRs have been hurt on a rotational basis.
5. The defense sucks so he as been playing from behind in too many must pass situations.
Meanwhile...
1. He throws an accurate ball
2. He stands in there and take his hits
3. He has moved the chains for us with his legs.
4. He may be responsible for the two wins that we have.
5. Most of our losses were not his fault.
6. He is a rookie
What did I miss?
Nothing!
They're 5-7.
Miss #2.
I'll let you in on a little secret - Duke had played in bowl games in each of the four seasons prior to Jones being installed as starting QB (2012-15). They were 27-13 in the three seasons before Jones and 19-19 under Jones, so enough with the "poor Daniel Jones was stuck with an awful team!" narrative.
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except Duke.
They're 5-7.
Miss #2.
I'll let you in on a little secret - Duke had played in bowl games in each of the four seasons prior to Jones being installed as starting QB (2012-15). They were 27-13 in the three seasons before Jones and 19-19 under Jones, so enough with the "poor Daniel Jones was stuck with an awful team!" narrative.
Those teams actually had some NFL talent. Crowder, Tomlinson, Renfree and former Giant great Ross Cockrell were all drafted. No one Jones played with was drafted.
Turnovers: 21
Completion %: 61.6
Yards ([passing & rushing]-yards lost in sacks): 2,352 (NOTE: he's lost more yards in sacks {263} than he's gained rushing {241})
Yards/Pass Attempt: 6.4 (this ranks 31st in NFL ahead of only Mason Rudolph and Mitch Trubisky)
Net Yards/Pass Attempt: 5.24 (33rd in NFL ahead of only Kyle Allen)
Since Jones has taken over the Giants have averaged 19.9 points scored per game. And of course the W-L record is 2-8, with 8 losses in a row.
How much of that is Jones's fault is absolutely up to debate: he's saddled by garbage on the field, on the sideline, and in the front office. Blaming everything on him is completely unfair.
But it's equally unfair, based on the story the numbers tell, to call Jones promising or even potentially special as some have. That hasn't borne out either.
He's a rookie who has mostly played like a rookie, albeit under adverse conditions. I wouldn't have any problem with a new coach and GM deciding that he's shown enough to stick with him, but neither would I have a problem with moving on from him.
Very true...