I said earlier on another thread that the Giants will want to get out in front and control the narrative.
They are going to blame it all on Shurmur. You don't see Papa, Banks and Diehl questioning the GM...
Same thing with the general media. The Giants brass are leaking what they want leaked.
Even on here, I am sure that there are some posters who truly are planted shills for the organization. I find it quite interesting just how many posters suddenly turned on PS a few weeks ago. Must have been 20 or more posters all turning on Shurmur and defending Gettleman at the same time, many (not all) of these posters are new withing the last 3 months. Of course, not all of those accounts will be plants but I think some are. It is the Giants trying to contain the fallout by controlling the narrative.
Basically, its all Shurmur's fault, he is toast, and Gettleman is safe. To quote one of my favorite TV shows...
"All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."
Well personally I have always taken a wait and see. I soured on Shurmur after AZ game. That said, it's tougher to judge Gettleman because even though a few of his FA pickups have sucked, I still really like his drafts. I'm willing to give DG more rope, but not Shurmur.
I think this is more on coaching. We are seeing people (OL) go backwards. It really sucks because now we have to upset the whole coaching apple cart again. Another new scheme for everyone to have to get comfortable with again. New players being broght in to fit the new scheme.
Yay. I don't see this shit turning around for a while. Ugh, so depressing.
I don't see them as comparable coaches. McCarthy was plagued by the same problems year in and year out and failed to solve them. Running game and defense. He didn't think outside the box and if he didn't have Rodgers he would have been fired long ago.
Payton is much more original and applies innovative solutions to solving his teams problems and has succeeded doing it.
I'd also argue they were victimized in consecutive playoff runs by some of the most horrific officiating in NFL history. So bad that they in fact changed the rules as a result of how embarrassing it was. There could readily be another Lombardi in Payton's trophy case.
He's a flat out better coach than the other guy...imo. 34-10 over the last three seasons vs 21-22-1.
RE: RE: If you think Rhule is going to be a great coach ... Â
... then who cares about a $30 million buyout? We're about to blow that much on an average 3-4 DE in Leonard Williams. Pay the extortion fee and get him in here.
30 Million is an absurd number to pay for anyone who has not coached in NFL game. Picking a coach without NFL experience is a lottery in terms of it working out. Most of the time it doesn't and once in a while it does. To think Rhule would be a good coach is a long shot (as it would be with any non established candidate), to pay 30 million for that lottery ticket would be insane.
$0 of that counts against the cap. The only place it matters is Mara's bank account. It's definitely worth it if you think Rhule is a good coach; like I said, we blow that on mediocre players all the time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: mara learned all his tricks from putin. Â
half the posters on this site are in fact part of a massive troll farm intended to spread disinformation about gettleman's performance. careful everyone.. BBI has been weaponized. LMAO
You know its funny you should say that... Actually Putin probably learned it from just about every corporate entity that has been doing this crap in the US for decades. You probably weren't around then, but back in the 90s, Pat Hanlon used to come on BBI and post Giants' spin all the time. He took quite a bit of crap for it and eventually stopped, at least stopped using his real account. I doubt the Giants as an organization have stopped posting their spin.
I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry
Do both. I've been challenging the smug arrogance of the analytics Duo for some time now. And they've both said frequently that part of the reason they talk about things is so the Giants will see the posts and make changes.
They fully believe shills are here and that their voice has an impact.
I tend to laugh until I'm crying!
C'mon Fatman, you've been around long enough to remember Pat Hanlon posting here on BBI.
You've also seen Eric admit, even recently that yes the Giants pay attention to BBI. I am sure they pay attention to other messages boards as well.
The Giants are a multi-Billion doallar corporate entity. THe Maras and Tisch may be football dummies, but they are not business dummies. Corporate entities spend milions on market research, so they can understand what their customers are thinking and what they want from their product. The spend millions more on advertising and other methods of getting their message out. All this is Business Administration 101. Monitoring message boards, and having some shills post has got to be the cheapest easiest way to not only get instant market feedback, but to try and get your message out there. I mean seriously, it's just too easy.
Nobody is suggesting that they have built troll bots or anything like that. But having an intern monitoring message boards and preparing summaries, and having said intern post a some messages is a no brainer. They would be business morons not to do it.
but I'm much more interested in whether a candidate is a good "leader of men" instead of whether he has been a successful coordinator or assistant. Being good at Xs and Os does not necessarily mean that you are good at inspiring others, delegating to assistant coaches or setting overall tone and expectations for a 53-man team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: mara learned all his tricks from putin. Â
C'mon Fatman, you've been around long enough to remember Pat Hanlon posting here on BBI.
You've also seen Eric admit, even recently that yes the Giants pay attention to BBI. I am sure they pay attention to other messages boards as well.
The Giants are a multi-Billion doallar corporate entity. THe Maras and Tisch may be football dummies, but they are not business dummies. Corporate entities spend milions on market research, so they can understand what their customers are thinking and what they want from their product. The spend millions more on advertising and other methods of getting their message out. All this is Business Administration 101. Monitoring message boards, and having some shills post has got to be the cheapest easiest way to not only get instant market feedback, but to try and get your message out there. I mean seriously, it's just too easy.
Nobody is suggesting that they have built troll bots or anything like that. But having an intern monitoring message boards and preparing summaries, and having said intern post a some messages is a no brainer. They would be business morons not to do it.
Lol c'mon you know what this is. Hard to defend DG at this point so he's just waiting in the wings for anything he can pounce on with bluster. He only enters a conversation if it can be overly dismissive and bombastic.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: mara learned all his tricks from putin. Â
C'mon Fatman, you've been around long enough to remember Pat Hanlon posting here on BBI.
You've also seen Eric admit, even recently that yes the Giants pay attention to BBI. I am sure they pay attention to other messages boards as well.
The Giants are a multi-Billion doallar corporate entity. THe Maras and Tisch may be football dummies, but they are not business dummies. Corporate entities spend milions on market research, so they can understand what their customers are thinking and what they want from their product. The spend millions more on advertising and other methods of getting their message out. All this is Business Administration 101. Monitoring message boards, and having some shills post has got to be the cheapest easiest way to not only get instant market feedback, but to try and get your message out there. I mean seriously, it's just too easy.
Nobody is suggesting that they have built troll bots or anything like that. But having an intern monitoring message boards and preparing summaries, and having said intern post a some messages is a no brainer. They would be business morons not to do it.
Lol c'mon you know what this is. Hard to defend DG at this point so he's just waiting in the wings for anything he can pounce on with bluster. He only enters a conversation if it can be overly dismissive and bombastic.
Oh sure, NGD, but I still needed to call out the inherent deceptiveness of his bombast and his post. Also the the idiocy of even entertaining the notion that the Giants don't pay any attention at all to their fans via message boards.
The whole post is really just another veiled defense of Gettleman, since, in my original post I postulated that the Giants are leaking that Shurmur is toast, but they are still supporting DG.
To be honest, while I am not saying its true... I would not at all be surprised to find out that the Giants offer FMiC some Giants freebees to make some of his posts.
Baylor had around 43 players on scholarship when Rhule got there and I believe he went 1-11 in his first year.
now they're a ten win team and on the verge of making the CFB playoffs. That's the definition of a turn-around.
Granted the Big 12 may not be all that impressive this year but Baylor is way, way down on the pecking order in terms of landing Texas recruits behind the other Texas Schools and the Oklahoma schools and some out of state schools like LSU.
Hadn’t heard about Brian Daboll, the Bills OC, until Â
vacchiano mentioned him in the linked article, That’s an interesting idea.
The guy was hired by Saban and then rehired by him a few years later. He also worked in two stints with Belichick. So prominent football people rehire the guy and he is now experiencing success in Buffalo.
There are no direct Giants relationships but everything about Daboll’s resume indicates that Gettleman should be investigating him closely.
I don't think shills are here to publicly turn sentiment Â
I'm not speculating on how much what we say here as posters has an effect on their decision making. Certainly no specific post.
But it does feed into market analysis.
This is one thing we can agree on. They definetly test the waters here, especially because BBI seems to be a bit higher quality than many other fan forums, at least the ones I've seen. You have this community of your core group of fans, why wouldn't you use it for market research? Especially since they seem to be so sensitive to fan sentiment. I still wonder if someone like DEP is why they thought the fanbase was so upset with the benching of Eli. He was very vocal about it all the time, as well as a few others.
I'm not speculating on how much what we say here as posters has an effect on their decision making. Certainly no specific post.
But it does feed into market analysis.
This is one thing we can agree on. They definetly test the waters here, especially because BBI seems to be a bit higher quality than many other fan forums, at least the ones I've seen. You have this community of your core group of fans, why wouldn't you use it for market research? Especially since they seem to be so sensitive to fan sentiment. I still wonder if someone like DEP is why they thought the fanbase was so upset with the benching of Eli. He was very vocal about it all the time, as well as a few others.
Thanks Zeke... A very reasonable take for sure. Also, I noticed you saying the other day that while not calling for it, that you don't care if GD gets canned. That's more good common sense! Now we just need to complete your journey to the dark side! ;)
Speaking of common sense, FMiC calls it being smug... I guess it looks that way when you have none.
Also i'm guessing you and I are the "anallytics duo" McL Â
I wonder what about Christian though? I guess to be in the duo you have to be both a proponent of good decision making systems AND intolerant of FMiC BS lol
Also the the idiocy of even entertaining the notion that the Giants don't pay any attention at all to their fans via message boards.
There's an idiocy here - the idea that shills are planted to post positive things about DG, but throw Shurmur under the bus. It is Flat-Earth type shit.
And you state it with confidence. A consistent theme.
You don't share your swag or your shill money. Since you have been on here through several administrations its obvious you have a house full of good stuff.
Meanwhile, we suffer because your opinions go back to Jints Central, cover for their lack of analytics and you destroyed such great Giant choices before they even started.
Like Ron Dayne. And Clint Sintim. And Jesse Palmer. And you robbed Ramses Barden of his gifts just to get stuff from Accorsi so he could orchestrate the firing of Gilbride.
Thanks Zeke... A very reasonable take for sure. Also, I noticed you saying the other day that while not calling for it, that you don't care if GD gets canned. That's more good common sense! Now we just need to complete your journey to the dark side! ;)
Speaking of common sense, FMiC calls it being smug... I guess it looks that way when you have none.
Well I think DG can go mostly because he is the one that approved Shurmur and these cast of clowns. As far as player acquisition I think it is hit or miss, but I believe that coaching is a major detriment on this team. I know many on the can DG side think he is evil incarnate, but I think his players are victim of piss poor coaching. Bring in Rivera and we will see instant results. That much I believe.
I know I chose to make fun of FMIC a bit, but on a serious note now; there is no way this 2019 version of BBI produces the input for market analysis.
Not even close to market analysis. Some guys think this. Some guys think that. No one is happy.
Kinda like what they feel.
Whats more, market analysis has a goal, a target set of questions and usually it tests for a reaction to a proposal or test product or slogan. Its pretty rigorous even if it is opinion based data.
We agree that Pat used to post here. That was to combat pre draft or FA period rumors. It was also before the FO felt less sensitive post SB 2007.
As the internet became more common and more knowable as a place to vent, we have not seen them very much have we? And I hate to say this, but since Dg, there is a heck of a lot less pre draft leaking ( granted on a sample size of 2 ) which has likely helped us or will help us someday.
Thanks Zeke... A very reasonable take for sure. Also, I noticed you saying the other day that while not calling for it, that you don't care if GD gets canned. That's more good common sense! Now we just need to complete your journey to the dark side! ;)
Speaking of common sense, FMiC calls it being smug... I guess it looks that way when you have none.
Well I think DG can go mostly because he is the one that approved Shurmur and these cast of clowns. As far as player acquisition I think it is hit or miss, but I believe that coaching is a major detriment on this team. I know many on the can DG side think he is evil incarnate, but I think his players are victim of piss poor coaching. Bring in Rivera and we will see instant results. That much I believe.
I agree DG has been hit or miss... Its not all bad. I just don't think there are enough hits.
Regarding Rivers, I am sure he will get more out what is here that Shurmur. As long as the Giants are not going to fire Gettleman, Rivera is about as good as it will get for the next HC hire. What remains to be seen is if that will be enough. While not completely pessimistic about that combo, I can't say that I'm optimistic.
I know I chose to make fun of FMIC a bit, but on a serious note now; there is no way this 2019 version of BBI produces the input for market analysis.
Not even close to market analysis. Some guys think this. Some guys think that. No one is happy.
Kinda like what they feel.
Whats more, market analysis has a goal, a target set of questions and usually it tests for a reaction to a proposal or test product or slogan. Its pretty rigorous even if it is opinion based data.
We agree that Pat used to post here. That was to combat pre draft or FA period rumors. It was also before the FO felt less sensitive post SB 2007.
As the internet became more common and more knowable as a place to vent, we have not seen them very much have we? And I hate to say this, but since Dg, there is a heck of a lot less pre draft leaking ( granted on a sample size of 2 ) which has likely helped us or will help us someday.
Bill2
100% agree with
Quote:
market analysis has a goal, a target set of questions and usually it tests for a reaction to a proposal or test product or slogan. Its pretty rigorous even if it is opinion based data.
Which is why I think the have shills or plants or whatever you want to call them. I would think they float something (whatever it is they are testing) and gauge the reaction. Instant feedback.
I also think they plant ideas to try and manage the fanbase. Like now, I would think they have some posts that are suggesting that they are working on the issues and things should get better. Right now that is basically put the blame on Shurmur and have faith that the FO will find a better coach. We certainly see themes like that from quite a few posters. Its not like they need dozens of accounts, just enough to get a message out there and have others amplify it. Smart businessmen will want to find way to control fan anger, and try to avoid complete revolt that will affect merchandising and ultimately their pocketbooks.
If you were in the Giants shoes, wouldn't you take advantage of such a cheap and easy method to at least try to manage things. Its a lot cheaper than producing more TV shows, which fans will likely tune out now, and even if they watch its with a very jaundiced eye knowing its coming directly from team management.
If the NYG, a privately held company who reports to no one(who get the majority of their revenue from TV, then splitting NFL merchandising then a very stable base of season ticket holders), I would have nothing to do with BBI.
Any hours spent there are wasted. Any attempt to discern what the fan base thought when the vast vast majority of BBI does not post (literally true) and you are going to do what you are going to do anyway is a major waste of employee time and money. Would a smart business man encourage employees to visit psychics and numerologists on company time for decisions that don't flex the revenue all that much?
McL, different people post the week after two straight wins than who post after 2 straight losses.
What the "fans" who do post on BBI "think" is already a sample size composed of the irrational. Then they speak with authority about the unknowable. That's who posts on BBI. Look at the number of those who are members of BBI and the number who post. Only the minority posts as opposed to the majority who lurks.
Ages ago there used to be 1-900 numbers for call centers that specialized in providing women who would talk dirty to callers at some outrageous cost per minute to the "customer".
They were outrageously profitable. Some PE firms asked for a complete review of the data ( Data Analytics) and operations of these kind of "business" because a telemarketing company they were looking at had a division that specialized in being 1-900 call center.
The insight:
They were not really profitable except for the top 8% of most frequent callers. While the majority of callers called between 1-2, there was a subset that called very frequently. The top 8% of customers of dirty call centers spent 15 hours a day on the phone with a series of women who specialized in talking dirty to callers. Despite a rapid path towards lessening their own functionality.
Similarly, the top 8% of Pepsi drinkers drink 30 cans of Pepsi a day or more. Despite a rapid path towards consuming no Pepsi.
Casinos make their money on the top 8% who visit. Over and over again. Despite losing more than winning. Despite a rapid path to not being able to afford a casino
Insight: The top 8% of consumers of addictive services had major health and psychological problems. But were resitant to reality
Insult comedian take: BBI posters are the most talkative consumers of an addictive service. And the ones posting the most now do so despite futility and constant losing. And almost no actual facts
I rest my case.
This is not market research. No smart business man of a model that is inoculated from temporary fan opinion would spent time considering what people on BBI "think" ( we don't think McL) as an input to an actual decision about football.
Although in the past, I do think JerseyJoe did tell them to simplify the passing trees, draft sumo wrestlers for Defensive Tackle and try a 2-9 on third and long.
might spend time writing to season ticket holders and might spend for surveys of folks who did not renew their season tickets. Or delay season ticket renewal drives until after fan optimism is revived post the draft ( which it always is).
I would guess, without any supporting data that there are pessimistic, angry, venting about what others write, rarely right but always certain about it BBI posting group. That's who is much of that we see as posting now.
The waiting and soon to be optimists are actually a larger group and not posting.
The largest group reads but does not post. Those are the ones likely to be more rational.
All consider themselves realists. Even though reading and posting about something you cant do anything about is by definition a somewhat delusional preoccupation.
Again, if I was ownership I'd spend a some small time on season ticket holders and the majority of time with retired scouts and ex GMS and coaches. Probably a smart silent guy or two at the league office. Or my cousins the Rooney's. I would not get caught interacting on the internet nor value any exchanges.
might spend time writing to season ticket holders and might spend for surveys of folks who did not renew their season tickets. Or delay season ticket renewal drives until after fan optimism is revived post the draft ( which it always is).
I would guess, without any supporting data that there are pessimistic, angry, venting about what others write, rarely right but always certain about it BBI posting group. That's who is much of that we see as posting now.
The waiting and soon to be optimists are actually a larger group and not posting.
The largest group reads but does not post. Those are the ones likely to be more rational.
All consider themselves realists. Even though reading and posting about something you cant do anything about is by definition a somewhat delusional preoccupation.
Again, if I was ownership I'd spend a some small time on season ticket holders and the majority of time with retired scouts and ex GMS and coaches. Probably a smart silent guy or two at the league office. Or my cousins the Rooney's. I would not get caught interacting on the internet nor value any exchanges.
Sorry, that's my opinion.
A silent majority, ala Nixon? Let's hope it works out as well for them.
might spend time writing to season ticket holders and might spend for surveys of folks who did not renew their season tickets. Or delay season ticket renewal drives until after fan optimism is revived post the draft ( which it always is).
I would guess, without any supporting data that there are pessimistic, angry, venting about what others write, rarely right but always certain about it BBI posting group. That's who is much of that we see as posting now.
The waiting and soon to be optimists are actually a larger group and not posting.
The largest group reads but does not post. Those are the ones likely to be more rational.
All consider themselves realists. Even though reading and posting about something you cant do anything about is by definition a somewhat delusional preoccupation.
Again, if I was ownership I'd spend a some small time on season ticket holders and the majority of time with retired scouts and ex GMS and coaches. Probably a smart silent guy or two at the league office. Or my cousins the Rooney's. I would not get caught interacting on the internet nor value any exchanges.
Sorry, that's my opinion.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree...
These are media outlets... And even if most do not post, there are a large number lurking... Its an easy and cheap way to get a message out. There is literally no downside and it costs next to nothing. Like I said above, it is something that you can assign to an intern.
I thought about this as the day started. Im serious in parts and trying to make a point in other parts of the post.
You, NGD and Anakim all wish to help the Giants. Anakim wants to eventually be a GM. You and NGD want the Giants to use more advanced analytics to capture competitive advantage.
Ok. The most effective way to do this is form a company. McLAN, LLc.
McLAN provides marketing, concept testing, market research, pre draft scouting analysis, deep AI based Analytical Insights, Cap Optimization and Management Counsel.
Once formed via signed agreement, its easy to make contact with the NYG. Pat Hanlon has an email, NYG interns scour BBI for insights and Eric can give you email addresses from contacts with the FO.
So we have five important things. Very motivated consultants, dedication to the success of the NYG, domain expertise from your other work, Anakim is an attorney and you already spend hours on the NYG.
You wish to offer six months of your best work as sweat equity for free and then negotiate a longer term retainer.
Now when it comes to listing competitive advantages, are you going to claim that you have great access to test and or plant messages with about 5000 NYG fans (via BBI) that:
1) Know Nothing vital or unique about the NYG
2) Know nothing that they did not read elsewhere
3) Are divided into three powerful subgroups:
A) Folks who are certain something will fail without seeing any data and use that as a basis to predict the future ( with certainty)
B) Folks who believe things will work out before there is any data
C) Folks who argue the past.
D) Folks who find satisfaction in taking internet pot shots other NYG fans on a daily basis
I dunno. If I was selling McLAN services, Id drop claiming a useful value proposition emerges from market testing on BBI.
So Im in favor of acting now and forming McLAN LLc. I think you will learn a lot and it just may succeed. Thinking big in time of change often turns into big wins.
I continue to think spending much energy on market testing on BBI is not going to be of interest.
But what do I know? After all, I am on BBI as well.
three sub groups because most belong to at least two of those groups and our split personalities belong to all four depending on if the Giants won or lost the prior week
Most professional market researchers spend a lot of time screening out anyone with a strong belief before they start testing. You know...so its valid information
1) I think analytics is where a certain chunk of the focus has turned, what i'm more interested in is innovation and cultures of innovation. I'd say things like poor timeout usage and the lack of certain skill / education types within the organization are more symptoms of a pervasive lack of commitment to innovation. I don't get as down on Mara as some as I do think he really cares, that being said, his comments on instant replay have been the thing from him that perhaps rubbed me in the worst way. It came off as very closed off to new ideas and while installing new things haphazardly (as Shurmur has done with 2 point and 4th down conversion tables) I am as against as anyone, it's important to be open to new ideas and to evaluate them in earnest alongside your current processes. I would say when you find yourself in a position like the Giants are, in the bottom of your industry, lack of innovation is the most probable reason you are there.
2) There is chasm between troll like behavior and "controlling a message." I think most of the time helping to breed optimism is a good thing, who doesn't want to feel a little more optimistic? I certainly do. That being said when it becomes clear that it is being used to cover up systemic problems, it is inherently problematic. Pinning this on Shurmur with all of our dead money (plus Eli being essentially dead money making this figure astronomical) talking a big game about culture then trading up for someone like Baker with visible on field character issues is disingenuous at best. When I see the pinning on Shurmur pile on, including people I've seen photographed with members of the Giants organization propagating the erroneous scapegoating that has continued to stop us from making the wholesale changes this team very clearly needs, that feels like manipulation to me. Do I think there are any bad actors here? No, not really. DGs attitude bothers me, the LW trade seems incredibly self serving to him personally.
3) Posters vs. Readers of BBI are vastly different. BBI gets as many as $1M visits per month. I don't think that interacting with posters is as top of mind as controlling the message. I think there are certainly people with strong associations with the team post on the board, whether or not they are being force fed lines I feel is irrelevant. Many are clearly slanted by a narrative that certain interests in the Giants organization clearly want to push to point blame in certain directions over others. Directions away from the top of the organization. That's fine, they have that right. People might think i'm biased because of my association with advanced data analysis myself but i'm not attached to any particular thing other than the pursuit of improving decision making processes and the best information possible. And I guess my issue is my bias is a known quantity if you even want to call it bias.
I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that upper management isn't doing everything that they can to minimize their role in creating this mess and that's in their right. But that is the story that needs to be told much more than the one being pushed by various media patsies with more of a platform than BBI, so tell it we shall
1) I see the time management problems as significantly improved by:
A) Copying best practices of coaching staffs that manage the clock well. This is a capability that many teams do better than the current coaching staff. TC was never good at it but better than this
B) Getting a HC who can handle more variables under time pressure than PC can.
We are so far below average at a capability others mastered ages ago that I don't know that we need innovation until we have better practice SOP's (standard operating practices) and a conscious OC or HC
As for senior management attempting to direct the message- what I see is senior management trying not to comment at all before the end of the year - and media filing in the vacuum by making the lack of information a leverage point.
I also don't think it matters what they say until some point in the future when things improve. You don't control the narrative or the messages until you win. And you certainly don't get benefit of any doubt until you win. That's true in every venture. imo
They are going to blame it all on Shurmur. You don't see Papa, Banks and Diehl questioning the GM...
Same thing with the general media. The Giants brass are leaking what they want leaked.
Even on here, I am sure that there are some posters who truly are planted shills for the organization. I find it quite interesting just how many posters suddenly turned on PS a few weeks ago. Must have been 20 or more posters all turning on Shurmur and defending Gettleman at the same time, many (not all) of these posters are new withing the last 3 months. Of course, not all of those accounts will be plants but I think some are. It is the Giants trying to contain the fallout by controlling the narrative.
Basically, its all Shurmur's fault, he is toast, and Gettleman is safe. To quote one of my favorite TV shows...
"All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again."
Well personally I have always taken a wait and see. I soured on Shurmur after AZ game. That said, it's tougher to judge Gettleman because even though a few of his FA pickups have sucked, I still really like his drafts. I'm willing to give DG more rope, but not Shurmur.
I think this is more on coaching. We are seeing people (OL) go backwards. It really sucks because now we have to upset the whole coaching apple cart again. Another new scheme for everyone to have to get comfortable with again. New players being broght in to fit the new scheme.
Yay. I don't see this shit turning around for a while. Ugh, so depressing.
Payton is much more original and applies innovative solutions to solving his teams problems and has succeeded doing it.
I'd also argue they were victimized in consecutive playoff runs by some of the most horrific officiating in NFL history. So bad that they in fact changed the rules as a result of how embarrassing it was. There could readily be another Lombardi in Payton's trophy case.
He's a flat out better coach than the other guy...imo. 34-10 over the last three seasons vs 21-22-1.
Quote:
... then who cares about a $30 million buyout? We're about to blow that much on an average 3-4 DE in Leonard Williams. Pay the extortion fee and get him in here.
30 Million is an absurd number to pay for anyone who has not coached in NFL game. Picking a coach without NFL experience is a lottery in terms of it working out. Most of the time it doesn't and once in a while it does. To think Rhule would be a good coach is a long shot (as it would be with any non established candidate), to pay 30 million for that lottery ticket would be insane.
$0 of that counts against the cap. The only place it matters is Mara's bank account. It's definitely worth it if you think Rhule is a good coach; like I said, we blow that on mediocre players all the time.
Quote:
In comment 14698967 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14698966 japanhead said:
Quote:
half the posters on this site are in fact part of a massive troll farm intended to spread disinformation about gettleman's performance. careful everyone.. BBI has been weaponized. LMAO
You know its funny you should say that... Actually Putin probably learned it from just about every corporate entity that has been doing this crap in the US for decades. You probably weren't around then, but back in the 90s, Pat Hanlon used to come on BBI and post Giants' spin all the time. He took quite a bit of crap for it and eventually stopped, at least stopped using his real account. I doubt the Giants as an organization have stopped posting their spin.
I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry
Do both. I've been challenging the smug arrogance of the analytics Duo for some time now. And they've both said frequently that part of the reason they talk about things is so the Giants will see the posts and make changes.
They fully believe shills are here and that their voice has an impact.
I tend to laugh until I'm crying!
C'mon Fatman, you've been around long enough to remember Pat Hanlon posting here on BBI.
You've also seen Eric admit, even recently that yes the Giants pay attention to BBI. I am sure they pay attention to other messages boards as well.
The Giants are a multi-Billion doallar corporate entity. THe Maras and Tisch may be football dummies, but they are not business dummies. Corporate entities spend milions on market research, so they can understand what their customers are thinking and what they want from their product. The spend millions more on advertising and other methods of getting their message out. All this is Business Administration 101. Monitoring message boards, and having some shills post has got to be the cheapest easiest way to not only get instant market feedback, but to try and get your message out there. I mean seriously, it's just too easy.
Nobody is suggesting that they have built troll bots or anything like that. But having an intern monitoring message boards and preparing summaries, and having said intern post a some messages is a no brainer. They would be business morons not to do it.
But it does feed into market analysis.
You had fans paying to run billboards on the turnpike shaming the franchise for the benching.
Link - ( New Window )
C'mon Fatman, you've been around long enough to remember Pat Hanlon posting here on BBI.
You've also seen Eric admit, even recently that yes the Giants pay attention to BBI. I am sure they pay attention to other messages boards as well.
The Giants are a multi-Billion doallar corporate entity. THe Maras and Tisch may be football dummies, but they are not business dummies. Corporate entities spend milions on market research, so they can understand what their customers are thinking and what they want from their product. The spend millions more on advertising and other methods of getting their message out. All this is Business Administration 101. Monitoring message boards, and having some shills post has got to be the cheapest easiest way to not only get instant market feedback, but to try and get your message out there. I mean seriously, it's just too easy.
Nobody is suggesting that they have built troll bots or anything like that. But having an intern monitoring message boards and preparing summaries, and having said intern post a some messages is a no brainer. They would be business morons not to do it.
Lol c'mon you know what this is. Hard to defend DG at this point so he's just waiting in the wings for anything he can pounce on with bluster. He only enters a conversation if it can be overly dismissive and bombastic.
Quote:
C'mon Fatman, you've been around long enough to remember Pat Hanlon posting here on BBI.
You've also seen Eric admit, even recently that yes the Giants pay attention to BBI. I am sure they pay attention to other messages boards as well.
The Giants are a multi-Billion doallar corporate entity. THe Maras and Tisch may be football dummies, but they are not business dummies. Corporate entities spend milions on market research, so they can understand what their customers are thinking and what they want from their product. The spend millions more on advertising and other methods of getting their message out. All this is Business Administration 101. Monitoring message boards, and having some shills post has got to be the cheapest easiest way to not only get instant market feedback, but to try and get your message out there. I mean seriously, it's just too easy.
Nobody is suggesting that they have built troll bots or anything like that. But having an intern monitoring message boards and preparing summaries, and having said intern post a some messages is a no brainer. They would be business morons not to do it.
Lol c'mon you know what this is. Hard to defend DG at this point so he's just waiting in the wings for anything he can pounce on with bluster. He only enters a conversation if it can be overly dismissive and bombastic.
Oh sure, NGD, but I still needed to call out the inherent deceptiveness of his bombast and his post. Also the the idiocy of even entertaining the notion that the Giants don't pay any attention at all to their fans via message boards.
The whole post is really just another veiled defense of Gettleman, since, in my original post I postulated that the Giants are leaking that Shurmur is toast, but they are still supporting DG.
To be honest, while I am not saying its true... I would not at all be surprised to find out that the Giants offer FMiC some Giants freebees to make some of his posts.
now they're a ten win team and on the verge of making the CFB playoffs. That's the definition of a turn-around.
Granted the Big 12 may not be all that impressive this year but Baylor is way, way down on the pecking order in terms of landing Texas recruits behind the other Texas Schools and the Oklahoma schools and some out of state schools like LSU.
The guy was hired by Saban and then rehired by him a few years later. He also worked in two stints with Belichick. So prominent football people rehire the guy and he is now experiencing success in Buffalo.
There are no direct Giants relationships but everything about Daboll’s resume indicates that Gettleman should be investigating him closely.
I think that people in that building are so pathetically thin skinned I can see them on the Internet using aliases arguing in their favor.
If you think that's ridiculous that's fine, Kevin Durant says hello.
But it does feed into market analysis.
This is one thing we can agree on. They definetly test the waters here, especially because BBI seems to be a bit higher quality than many other fan forums, at least the ones I've seen. You have this community of your core group of fans, why wouldn't you use it for market research? Especially since they seem to be so sensitive to fan sentiment. I still wonder if someone like DEP is why they thought the fanbase was so upset with the benching of Eli. He was very vocal about it all the time, as well as a few others.
Quote:
I'm not speculating on how much what we say here as posters has an effect on their decision making. Certainly no specific post.
But it does feed into market analysis.
This is one thing we can agree on. They definetly test the waters here, especially because BBI seems to be a bit higher quality than many other fan forums, at least the ones I've seen. You have this community of your core group of fans, why wouldn't you use it for market research? Especially since they seem to be so sensitive to fan sentiment. I still wonder if someone like DEP is why they thought the fanbase was so upset with the benching of Eli. He was very vocal about it all the time, as well as a few others.
Thanks Zeke... A very reasonable take for sure. Also, I noticed you saying the other day that while not calling for it, that you don't care if GD gets canned. That's more good common sense! Now we just need to complete your journey to the dark side! ;)
Speaking of common sense, FMiC calls it being smug... I guess it looks that way when you have none.
There's an idiocy here - the idea that shills are planted to post positive things about DG, but throw Shurmur under the bus. It is Flat-Earth type shit.
And you state it with confidence. A consistent theme.
You don't share your swag or your shill money. Since you have been on here through several administrations its obvious you have a house full of good stuff.
Meanwhile, we suffer because your opinions go back to Jints Central, cover for their lack of analytics and you destroyed such great Giant choices before they even started.
Like Ron Dayne. And Clint Sintim. And Jesse Palmer. And you robbed Ramses Barden of his gifts just to get stuff from Accorsi so he could orchestrate the firing of Gilbride.
We are on to you Fat Man.
Quote:
In comment 14700195 .McL. said:
Thanks Zeke... A very reasonable take for sure. Also, I noticed you saying the other day that while not calling for it, that you don't care if GD gets canned. That's more good common sense! Now we just need to complete your journey to the dark side! ;)
Speaking of common sense, FMiC calls it being smug... I guess it looks that way when you have none.
Well I think DG can go mostly because he is the one that approved Shurmur and these cast of clowns. As far as player acquisition I think it is hit or miss, but I believe that coaching is a major detriment on this team. I know many on the can DG side think he is evil incarnate, but I think his players are victim of piss poor coaching. Bring in Rivera and we will see instant results. That much I believe.
Not even close to market analysis. Some guys think this. Some guys think that. No one is happy.
Kinda like what they feel.
Whats more, market analysis has a goal, a target set of questions and usually it tests for a reaction to a proposal or test product or slogan. Its pretty rigorous even if it is opinion based data.
We agree that Pat used to post here. That was to combat pre draft or FA period rumors. It was also before the FO felt less sensitive post SB 2007.
As the internet became more common and more knowable as a place to vent, we have not seen them very much have we? And I hate to say this, but since Dg, there is a heck of a lot less pre draft leaking ( granted on a sample size of 2 ) which has likely helped us or will help us someday.
Quote:
In comment 14700861 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14700195 .McL. said:
Thanks Zeke... A very reasonable take for sure. Also, I noticed you saying the other day that while not calling for it, that you don't care if GD gets canned. That's more good common sense! Now we just need to complete your journey to the dark side! ;)
Speaking of common sense, FMiC calls it being smug... I guess it looks that way when you have none.
Well I think DG can go mostly because he is the one that approved Shurmur and these cast of clowns. As far as player acquisition I think it is hit or miss, but I believe that coaching is a major detriment on this team. I know many on the can DG side think he is evil incarnate, but I think his players are victim of piss poor coaching. Bring in Rivera and we will see instant results. That much I believe.
I agree DG has been hit or miss... Its not all bad. I just don't think there are enough hits.
Regarding Rivers, I am sure he will get more out what is here that Shurmur. As long as the Giants are not going to fire Gettleman, Rivera is about as good as it will get for the next HC hire. What remains to be seen is if that will be enough. While not completely pessimistic about that combo, I can't say that I'm optimistic.
Not even close to market analysis. Some guys think this. Some guys think that. No one is happy.
Kinda like what they feel.
Whats more, market analysis has a goal, a target set of questions and usually it tests for a reaction to a proposal or test product or slogan. Its pretty rigorous even if it is opinion based data.
We agree that Pat used to post here. That was to combat pre draft or FA period rumors. It was also before the FO felt less sensitive post SB 2007.
As the internet became more common and more knowable as a place to vent, we have not seen them very much have we? And I hate to say this, but since Dg, there is a heck of a lot less pre draft leaking ( granted on a sample size of 2 ) which has likely helped us or will help us someday.
Bill2
100% agree with
Which is why I think the have shills or plants or whatever you want to call them. I would think they float something (whatever it is they are testing) and gauge the reaction. Instant feedback.
I also think they plant ideas to try and manage the fanbase. Like now, I would think they have some posts that are suggesting that they are working on the issues and things should get better. Right now that is basically put the blame on Shurmur and have faith that the FO will find a better coach. We certainly see themes like that from quite a few posters. Its not like they need dozens of accounts, just enough to get a message out there and have others amplify it. Smart businessmen will want to find way to control fan anger, and try to avoid complete revolt that will affect merchandising and ultimately their pocketbooks.
If you were in the Giants shoes, wouldn't you take advantage of such a cheap and easy method to at least try to manage things. Its a lot cheaper than producing more TV shows, which fans will likely tune out now, and even if they watch its with a very jaundiced eye knowing its coming directly from team management.
If the NYG, a privately held company who reports to no one(who get the majority of their revenue from TV, then splitting NFL merchandising then a very stable base of season ticket holders), I would have nothing to do with BBI.
Any hours spent there are wasted. Any attempt to discern what the fan base thought when the vast vast majority of BBI does not post (literally true) and you are going to do what you are going to do anyway is a major waste of employee time and money. Would a smart business man encourage employees to visit psychics and numerologists on company time for decisions that don't flex the revenue all that much?
McL, different people post the week after two straight wins than who post after 2 straight losses.
What the "fans" who do post on BBI "think" is already a sample size composed of the irrational. Then they speak with authority about the unknowable. That's who posts on BBI. Look at the number of those who are members of BBI and the number who post. Only the minority posts as opposed to the majority who lurks.
Ages ago there used to be 1-900 numbers for call centers that specialized in providing women who would talk dirty to callers at some outrageous cost per minute to the "customer".
They were outrageously profitable. Some PE firms asked for a complete review of the data ( Data Analytics) and operations of these kind of "business" because a telemarketing company they were looking at had a division that specialized in being 1-900 call center.
The insight:
They were not really profitable except for the top 8% of most frequent callers. While the majority of callers called between 1-2, there was a subset that called very frequently. The top 8% of customers of dirty call centers spent 15 hours a day on the phone with a series of women who specialized in talking dirty to callers. Despite a rapid path towards lessening their own functionality.
Similarly, the top 8% of Pepsi drinkers drink 30 cans of Pepsi a day or more. Despite a rapid path towards consuming no Pepsi.
Casinos make their money on the top 8% who visit. Over and over again. Despite losing more than winning. Despite a rapid path to not being able to afford a casino
Insight: The top 8% of consumers of addictive services had major health and psychological problems. But were resitant to reality
Insult comedian take: BBI posters are the most talkative consumers of an addictive service. And the ones posting the most now do so despite futility and constant losing. And almost no actual facts
I rest my case.
This is not market research. No smart business man of a model that is inoculated from temporary fan opinion would spent time considering what people on BBI "think" ( we don't think McL) as an input to an actual decision about football.
Although in the past, I do think JerseyJoe did tell them to simplify the passing trees, draft sumo wrestlers for Defensive Tackle and try a 2-9 on third and long.
I would guess, without any supporting data that there are pessimistic, angry, venting about what others write, rarely right but always certain about it BBI posting group. That's who is much of that we see as posting now.
The waiting and soon to be optimists are actually a larger group and not posting.
The largest group reads but does not post. Those are the ones likely to be more rational.
All consider themselves realists. Even though reading and posting about something you cant do anything about is by definition a somewhat delusional preoccupation.
Again, if I was ownership I'd spend a some small time on season ticket holders and the majority of time with retired scouts and ex GMS and coaches. Probably a smart silent guy or two at the league office. Or my cousins the Rooney's. I would not get caught interacting on the internet nor value any exchanges.
Sorry, that's my opinion.
I would guess, without any supporting data that there are pessimistic, angry, venting about what others write, rarely right but always certain about it BBI posting group. That's who is much of that we see as posting now.
The waiting and soon to be optimists are actually a larger group and not posting.
The largest group reads but does not post. Those are the ones likely to be more rational.
All consider themselves realists. Even though reading and posting about something you cant do anything about is by definition a somewhat delusional preoccupation.
Again, if I was ownership I'd spend a some small time on season ticket holders and the majority of time with retired scouts and ex GMS and coaches. Probably a smart silent guy or two at the league office. Or my cousins the Rooney's. I would not get caught interacting on the internet nor value any exchanges.
Sorry, that's my opinion.
A silent majority, ala Nixon? Let's hope it works out as well for them.
I would guess, without any supporting data that there are pessimistic, angry, venting about what others write, rarely right but always certain about it BBI posting group. That's who is much of that we see as posting now.
The waiting and soon to be optimists are actually a larger group and not posting.
The largest group reads but does not post. Those are the ones likely to be more rational.
All consider themselves realists. Even though reading and posting about something you cant do anything about is by definition a somewhat delusional preoccupation.
Again, if I was ownership I'd spend a some small time on season ticket holders and the majority of time with retired scouts and ex GMS and coaches. Probably a smart silent guy or two at the league office. Or my cousins the Rooney's. I would not get caught interacting on the internet nor value any exchanges.
Sorry, that's my opinion.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree...
These are media outlets... And even if most do not post, there are a large number lurking... Its an easy and cheap way to get a message out. There is literally no downside and it costs next to nothing. Like I said above, it is something that you can assign to an intern.
You, NGD and Anakim all wish to help the Giants. Anakim wants to eventually be a GM. You and NGD want the Giants to use more advanced analytics to capture competitive advantage.
Ok. The most effective way to do this is form a company. McLAN, LLc.
McLAN provides marketing, concept testing, market research, pre draft scouting analysis, deep AI based Analytical Insights, Cap Optimization and Management Counsel.
Once formed via signed agreement, its easy to make contact with the NYG. Pat Hanlon has an email, NYG interns scour BBI for insights and Eric can give you email addresses from contacts with the FO.
So we have five important things. Very motivated consultants, dedication to the success of the NYG, domain expertise from your other work, Anakim is an attorney and you already spend hours on the NYG.
You wish to offer six months of your best work as sweat equity for free and then negotiate a longer term retainer.
Now when it comes to listing competitive advantages, are you going to claim that you have great access to test and or plant messages with about 5000 NYG fans (via BBI) that:
1) Know Nothing vital or unique about the NYG
2) Know nothing that they did not read elsewhere
3) Are divided into three powerful subgroups:
A) Folks who are certain something will fail without seeing any data and use that as a basis to predict the future ( with certainty)
B) Folks who believe things will work out before there is any data
C) Folks who argue the past.
D) Folks who find satisfaction in taking internet pot shots other NYG fans on a daily basis
I dunno. If I was selling McLAN services, Id drop claiming a useful value proposition emerges from market testing on BBI.
So Im in favor of acting now and forming McLAN LLc. I think you will learn a lot and it just may succeed. Thinking big in time of change often turns into big wins.
I continue to think spending much energy on market testing on BBI is not going to be of interest.
But what do I know? After all, I am on BBI as well.
2) There is chasm between troll like behavior and "controlling a message." I think most of the time helping to breed optimism is a good thing, who doesn't want to feel a little more optimistic? I certainly do. That being said when it becomes clear that it is being used to cover up systemic problems, it is inherently problematic. Pinning this on Shurmur with all of our dead money (plus Eli being essentially dead money making this figure astronomical) talking a big game about culture then trading up for someone like Baker with visible on field character issues is disingenuous at best. When I see the pinning on Shurmur pile on, including people I've seen photographed with members of the Giants organization propagating the erroneous scapegoating that has continued to stop us from making the wholesale changes this team very clearly needs, that feels like manipulation to me. Do I think there are any bad actors here? No, not really. DGs attitude bothers me, the LW trade seems incredibly self serving to him personally.
3) Posters vs. Readers of BBI are vastly different. BBI gets as many as $1M visits per month. I don't think that interacting with posters is as top of mind as controlling the message. I think there are certainly people with strong associations with the team post on the board, whether or not they are being force fed lines I feel is irrelevant. Many are clearly slanted by a narrative that certain interests in the Giants organization clearly want to push to point blame in certain directions over others. Directions away from the top of the organization. That's fine, they have that right. People might think i'm biased because of my association with advanced data analysis myself but i'm not attached to any particular thing other than the pursuit of improving decision making processes and the best information possible. And I guess my issue is my bias is a known quantity if you even want to call it bias.
I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that upper management isn't doing everything that they can to minimize their role in creating this mess and that's in their right. But that is the story that needs to be told much more than the one being pushed by various media patsies with more of a platform than BBI, so tell it we shall
1) I see the time management problems as significantly improved by:
A) Copying best practices of coaching staffs that manage the clock well. This is a capability that many teams do better than the current coaching staff. TC was never good at it but better than this
B) Getting a HC who can handle more variables under time pressure than PC can.
We are so far below average at a capability others mastered ages ago that I don't know that we need innovation until we have better practice SOP's (standard operating practices) and a conscious OC or HC
As for senior management attempting to direct the message- what I see is senior management trying not to comment at all before the end of the year - and media filing in the vacuum by making the lack of information a leverage point.
I also don't think it matters what they say until some point in the future when things improve. You don't control the narrative or the messages until you win. And you certainly don't get benefit of any doubt until you win. That's true in every venture. imo
Take care