Looking more and more like a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don’t decision at year’s end. He looks like all he’ll ever be is a solid but unspectacular 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. Not a game-changer and not a big play guy.
If I were to put an average annual comp number on him I’d say he’s worth $7-8M/year. If you look at the comps, he’ll probably be looking for $11M+/year. I DO NOT want to pay him that, given his production/impact and the many other holes on this team.
Lawrence and Tomlinson are a good DL combo - I think we field a good D with them and a JAG at the other DL spot if we have good LBs/Edge guys.
The other factor is the increase in comp to the Jets if we re-sign him. Making the 2021 4 a 3 is something to factor in.
With each passing game where he plays well but not great and we near the end of his contract, this decision gives me more angst.
Honestly, what the hell was Gettleman thinking? We traded a DAY 2 PICK for a guy...
Never mind. I beat this dead horse enough.
It’s just a really terrible trade by DG.
That said, no one will offer Williams mega bucks and we’ll definitely overpay for him but he has to be signed
That said, no one will offer Williams mega bucks and we’ll definitely overpay for him but he has to be signed
You’re giving Gettleman too much credit. He’s a dope. He didn’t prevent anything.
(No question though- I think we need a new DC to come in and breathe life into these guys... I'd love it if we could just go ahead and sign the 49ers D-Line coach as our DC immediately at season's end, that guy is apparently super intense.)
Either way, this is a lost season, and difficult to judge any one player right now in this environment... and if LW does turn out to be a quality player in the right scheme with the right supporting cast, then it will have been a good move. So, I'm reserving judgement for the time being, but no question at this very moment if we could do it over again I say keep that high 3rd rounder.
We'll see.
So let's say he gets $11/year. Who would we be signing for less? Everything is relative. He is solid and a talent. Not what he was hoped to be when drafted, but it looks like a solid move to me. Just my two bits.
Honestly, what the hell was Gettleman thinking? We traded a DAY 2 PICK for a guy...
Never mind. I beat this dead horse enough.
No, you haven't. People have defended and continue to defend this GM malpractice. He's the worst GM in the league by far and needs to "retire" after this season.
What? You are 2-6. Your draft picks are your most valuable assets. You cannot be trading them away. They need to acquire picks not piss them away for FREE AGENTS.
PS Leonard Williams isn't good at football.
So let's say he gets $11/year. Who would we be signing for less? Everything is relative. He is solid and a talent. Not what he was hoped to be when drafted, but it looks like a solid move to me. Just my two bits.
This is completely false. They get NO FUCKING COMP PICK UNLESS THEY DONT USE THEIR 90 MILLION OF CAP ROOM. It was an idiotic trade with ZERO justification. Fireable offense.
I think it is possible that you do not understand how the comp pick formula works.
It is not applied to each free agent individually but the net free agent signings/losses. Given how much money we have next year, even if we do lose LW, there is an excellent chance that we will sign more valuable free agents than we lose.
He isn't worth what some bad team (probably the giants) will pay him. The multiple wasted assets of Gettleman will be the reason we are a losing franchise, not just team. Defending this abortion of a franchise is tired. We are the worst run team in the NFL.
Honestly, what the hell was Gettleman thinking? We traded a DAY 2 PICK for a guy...
Never mind. I beat this dead horse enough.
You are not the only one who is baffled. If the Giants sign Williams for next year, they threw away a 3rd round pick. If Williams walks, they get a comp pick that may be lower than the one they traded away. Am I missing something?
Trading for Williams doesn't affect the third round comp pick we expect to get for Williams. But we traded our pick, not the comp pick. You can't trade a pick that hasn't been awarded.
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so could the 3rd be the later comp pick?
Trading for Williams doesn't affect the third round comp pick we expect to get for Williams. But we traded our pick, not the comp pick. You can't trade a pick that hasn't been awarded.
For Collins.
He's also not going to sign a monster deal. And the first year cap hit likely to be structured as favorable. Also what if we transition tag him at 2nd round comp? We lose him we get a higher pick than we gave up.
How is that good, this is the best this guy has in his walk year! Do you think he will play better when they pay him more? Doubtful, let him walk!
An UDFA @2-7 that’s gonna be a a 62-65th pick
Gettleman is literally the worst gm in the league at this point. He took the first offer he got for OBJ, traded up for a rookie CB that’s struggling mightly, and has drafted several DL guys that haven’t worked out yet
Fire gettleshit already
We essentially got a player we know can play though I do believe we overpaid a bit with a 3rd next year should we resign him. A 4th I could have lived with.
Most all the comments are complaining about him being a FA. Would things be different for you if they signed him long term when traded???
If yes than all you are being is impatient and screaming BUT I WAnt to know now!
Again I wouldn’t have made the trade but he is a good player and I will just wait and see what he ends up signing for, than I’ll scream about it.
He's also not going to sign a monster deal. And the first year cap hit likely to be structured as favorable. Also what if we transition tag him at 2nd round comp? We lose him we get a higher pick than we gave up.
The transition tag is not a tender. That's not how it works at all.
He's managed a couple of pressures, and he was doubled quite a bit last week, but in both cases the play of the DL wasn't improved much over what was there in the beginning of the season.
DG traded away a 3rd+ for the rights to pay good money for that? On a team that's got so many holes it can use every player it can get, but happened to be OK at the interior DL spot.
If DG were on trial for incompetence, this would be the first bit of evidence.
And let's stop talking about the possible comp pick. Even if Williams walks and gets a fortune, they have a lot of cap space and tons of holes, they're going to be net spenders.
Honestly, what the hell was Gettleman thinking? We traded a DAY 2 PICK for a guy...
Never mind. I beat this dead horse enough.
This should be the cause needed to fire DG. He’s been horrible. Outside of the preseason hype of his young picks, he’s been dreadful. Time to go outside the box with young guys in the FO and HC spots.
It will be even worse if they give him a ton of money in free agency and gave up the 66th pick in the draft for the right to overpay him before he gets to free agency.
Anyone who defends trading for him is an imbecile. It made no sense on any level.
He's also not going to sign a monster deal. And the first year cap hit likely to be structured as favorable. Also what if we transition tag him at 2nd round comp? We lose him we get a higher pick than we gave up.
Hes a fifth year vet who has played for good defensive coaches.
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Before giving up on him. Also lets see if we get Young to add to the mix.
He's also not going to sign a monster deal. And the first year cap hit likely to be structured as favorable. Also what if we transition tag him at 2nd round comp? We lose him we get a higher pick than we gave up.
Hes a fifth year vet who has played for good defensive coaches.
This is fool me once, fool me twice territory. He fell for it once with Ogletree and Wade Philips, now it's Williams and Gregg Williams. Gettleman has to stop trading picks for guys other teams have figured out should move on.
Peppers stinks. Williams is just ok. Stop trading for other teams 1st round mediocre/bust players.
Honestly, what the hell was Gettleman thinking? We traded a DAY 2 PICK for a guy...
Never mind. I beat this dead horse enough.
It reminds me of the Mets in 2004 who were out of it at the trading deadline but traded Scott Kazmir (their best prospect) for Victor Zambrano (a mediocre injured lefty). The trade made no freakin sense.
The Giants remind me a lot of the Mets these days.
Tremendous.
Peppers stinks. Williams is just ok. Stop trading for other teams 1st round mediocre/bust players.
Deadskins getting more out of flowers at no cost then the giants taking on the right to overpay Williams for picks
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does not guarantee a solid pick. You really can't complain yet.
What? You are 2-6. Your draft picks are your most valuable assets. You cannot be trading them away. They need to acquire picks not piss them away for FREE AGENTS.
PS Leonard Williams isn't good at football.
Are they going to get a better player in the 3rd round than Williams? Could happen, yes, but it is highly unlikely. So they got Williams, a known entity, for a 3rd this year and a 5th next year, maybe a 4th.
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In comment 14698544 RedZone88 said:
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does not guarantee a solid pick. You really can't complain yet.
What? You are 2-6. Your draft picks are your most valuable assets. You cannot be trading them away. They need to acquire picks not piss them away for FREE AGENTS.
PS Leonard Williams isn't good at football.
Are they going to get a better player in the 3rd round than Williams? Could happen, yes, but it is highly unlikely. So they got Williams, a known entity, for a 3rd this year and a 5th next year, maybe a 4th.
You're leaving out the part where he's going to cost 13+ million per year to keep.
That's the biggest part of it. He's not worth giving up a 3rd round pick and paying big money for.
Horrendous use of draft resources and Gettleman shouldn't be allowed to have the chance to make it even worse by giving him a ton of money.
Williams is not a difference maker.
Solid player...with possibly his best game still ahead, great attitude.....checks all the boxes.
If they draft Chase Young....with Lawrence, Baker, Connerly, Beal, Hill, Carter, Love, Ballentine, Tomilinson....makes them a very young defense... Peppers and Williams are their leaders.
I assume Shurmur is gone but do not expect DG to be going anywhere.....I am willing to give him more time.....even to overpay for a solid player
Solid player...with possibly his best game still ahead, great attitude.....checks all the boxes.
If they draft Chase Young....with Lawrence, Baker, Connerly, Beal, Hill, Carter, Love, Ballentine, Tomilinson....makes them a very young defense... Peppers and Williams are their leaders.
I assume Shurmur is gone but do not expect DG to be going anywhere.....I am willing to give him more time.....even to overpay for a solid player
That's the same terrible logic that got Gettleman Shurmur, that 'his best work is ahead of him'.
Williams has been around for awhile. He is what he is - a good but not very good player who's going to be overpaid. And on top of it, these morons gave up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to overpay him.
A few/two years from now after about 20-25 more losses in 32 games when the Maras finally get rid of Gettleman the rest of the NFL GMs are going to light a candle. He will be sorely missed by the other 31.
Seriously, I don’t like to criticize posters, but there is absolutely no reasonable argument to have made this trade. It’s *the* dumbest trade I can remember in all the years I’ve been watching the NFL.
I don’t like beating this dead horse either. But it’s important to understand the pure incompetence Getty demonstrated by making this trade. It’s important to understand as well that this trade got past the owners. If you’re looking for a reason the Giants are so bad then look not further than Getty’s indefensible trade for LW.
And that's a reason he did a bad job as a GM, no?
A few/two years from now after about 20-25 more losses in 32 games when the Maras finally get rid of Gettleman the rest of the NFL GMs are going to light a candle. He will be sorely missed by the other 31.
How about the fact that he gave Jonathan Stewart a 2 year contract
Assumption #2...this kind of player is readily available in FA. Maybe....not a given, if you ask me.
Yes, at a cost...but Giants are flushed with cap the next 2 years.
Yes, the 66th pick has value.....
The Giants need talent, leadership and the right attitude.
Aw fuck it, I give up.
Aw fuck it, I give up.
Stop using rationale and logic when arguing people that defend Gettleman
It won’t work
Tremendous.
thats damn near aaron donald money... why do people really think he'll command that much???
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$17M/yr, along with a 3rd and 5th round pick, for a player who will get us 5-7 sacks per year, have some TFL, bat down a few passes, and be decent against the run.
Tremendous.
thats damn near aaron donald money... why do people really think he'll command that much???
Because they understand how free agency works. And they understand leverage. And they understand how the league is awash in cap space this offseason.
Site tarred and feathered him on a daily basis .
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$17M/yr, along with a 3rd and 5th round pick, for a player who will get us 5-7 sacks per year, have some TFL, bat down a few passes, and be decent against the run.
Tremendous.
thats damn near aaron donald money... why do people really think he'll command that much???
I went through this the other day with the DT contracts.
Donald is $22.5M/yr. Cox is roughly $17/yr, but that was signed in 2016. In the summer of 2018, Geno Atkins signed for $17M/yr. All quality players.
In between those times, the less heralded Jurrell Casey signed for $15M in 2017. He's averaged 6 sacks per year the last 6 years,
And more recently, Grady Jarrett signed fro $17Myr this summer. He's averaged over his career about 4.5 sacks per year.
So why wouldn't LW think (1) he's = or > than Casey and (2) he's as productive as Jarrett?
Unless Team LW is completely insane or incompetent, they are easily looking for $17M/yr.
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In comment 14698544 RedZone88 said:
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does not guarantee a solid pick. You really can't complain yet.
What? You are 2-6. Your draft picks are your most valuable assets. You cannot be trading them away. They need to acquire picks not piss them away for FREE AGENTS.
PS Leonard Williams isn't good at football.
Are they going to get a better player in the 3rd round than Williams? Could happen, yes, but it is highly unlikely. So they got Williams, a known entity, for a 3rd this year and a 5th next year, maybe a 4th.
I saw him take plays off yesterday.
Man we are knee deep back into the 70’s.
I don’t trust Mara anymore in making decisions on GM’s and HC’s.
It was totally sickening hearing the Packer chants in our stadium.
It is so hard watching these games now. You know what the outcome will be before the first kick.
So let's say he gets $11/year. Who would we be signing for less? Everything is relative. He is solid and a talent. Not what he was hoped to be when drafted, but it looks like a solid move to me. Just my two bits.
FFS, don't correct people when you don't know what you're talking about. Unless you think they're just going to sit out free agency this year, or only sign players who were released, rather than those whose contracts expired, they're not getting a comp pick back for LW.
TL;DR: THEY'RE NOT GETTING A COMP PICK BACK FOR LEONARD WILLIAMS.
We essentially got a player we know can play though I do believe we overpaid a bit with a 3rd next year should we resign him. A 4th I could have lived with.
You should look up which teams are near the top of the current NFL run defense rankings to see if you think building a standout run defense is a winning strategy in the modern NFL.
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$17M/yr, along with a 3rd and 5th round pick, for a player who will get us 5-7 sacks per year, have some TFL, bat down a few passes, and be decent against the run.
Tremendous.
thats damn near aaron donald money... why do people really think he'll command that much???
Because there is so much aggregate cap space available this offseason that it will create a vacuum into which decent players will get pulled up into a much higher pay scale due to the enormity of the available cap space.
Add to that the leverage that LW's agent has over DG, and the only way LW doesn't approach Aaron Donald's contract value is if he is signed before free agency begins, or if he simply decides that being a Giant at a reasonable number is worth more to him than breaking the bank.
The latter in particular is highly unlikely, but I suppose it's possible. Though if it does go down that way, you can still make the argument that the trade was unnecessary to acquire a player who was willing to give a discount to stay nearby anyway.
So you're saying LW isn't going to give the Giants a discount for the:
- Killer NJ tax rates
- The totally reasonable metro area cost of living
- The stability in the coaching and management
- All the recent winning
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Getty traded picks for LW for 8 games. He’s a rental. LW is still a UFA at the end of the season. Any other team in the NFL can try to sign LW.
Aw fuck it, I give up.
Stop using rationale and logic when arguing people that defend Gettleman
It won’t work
Thank god there are some fans on this site that see this current dumpster fire franchise for what it is. This trade was mind numbingly stupid. What really pisses me off is the Jets were not going to overpay him and he would be a free agent. If we signed him as a FA , while I would not love it , it would not be terrible in theory. But to give what almost amounts to a low 2nd and a 4th next year and overpay him is a setback this awful franchise can't afford. This is only 1 of many terrible choices by Ghettoman , until he is gone I have no real hope as a fan.
Solid player...with possibly his best game still ahead, great attitude.....checks all the boxes.
If they draft Chase Young....with Lawrence, Baker, Connerly, Beal, Hill, Carter, Love, Ballentine, Tomilinson....makes them a very young defense... Peppers and Williams are their leaders.
I assume Shurmur is gone but do not expect DG to be going anywhere.....I am willing to give him more time.....even to overpay for a solid player
How is his best game still ahead of him? HE is playing for a contract right now so this is pretty much Williams at his best...which is not so great, so yeah let's throw $15M per year plus at an ordinary player.
1. Being here for these 8 games during losing, turmoil, and then the eventually a coaching change and associated chaos will make him LESS likely to sign than if he had never been here at all.
2. Having expended picks for him gives HIM the leverage and puts us at a disadvantage. We might have to pay more than we would have had we simply signed him during the off-season.
3. Our pick is going to be very high in the 3rd round. And anyone who thought otherwise when we made the trade, wasn't watching football.
4. Perhaps there is some advanced analytic stat that tells us his impact is higher than what is visible. I have heard that before regarding a player. His name was Vernon.
Worst of all, this is DG going in two directions at the same time again.
We are making a run - keep Eli, a RB, trade pick for Ogletree.
Didn't work
We need to rebuild - Sell best players and acquire picks. Draft players to replace the ones we sold.
We are making a run - even know we sold last year and drafted a QB, keep Eli at 23 million but get a few veterans to help us on our run.
Didn't work...
We need to rebuild - Bench Eli and play the younger players and Jones
Didn't work
We are making a run? Trade a 3rd round pick to have LW for 8 games?
This franchise has never full committed to the rebuild. If you sell players for assets then you must keep going. This was a random shot during a ridiculous season. We don't even know what scheme the next DC will run. What are they doing?
Jabrill has a high ceiling and he should be an outstanding safety-linebacker and a superb punt returner.