Have we heard from any of the reliable bbi asshats on what they are hearing in terms of shurmur and gettlemans future? They seemed to be fairly accurate during FA with insider info
The Giants are greasing the skids/guillotine for Shurmur. He'll be gone on Black Monday. The Pre and Post game are all over him and there are plants in the papers indicating such. The question in my mind is this: Does Gettleman go too? That I'm not sure of. I tend to think he stays, but as in Matt in SGS pointed out on another thread, the next hire will be the last one under his regime.
In this organization, the Head Coach and QB are joint decisions by ownership and the GM. Hell, Coughlin wouldn't have been hired in 2004 had it been up to Accorsi. That was Welly's hire. John Mara will follow suit and approve this hire, but I wonder if Gettleman is part of the process or just told to "retire" instead. That's what I want to know.
If ownership believes that pat to be such a bad hire that he should be fired in 2 years (I agree) not sure how you have confidence that the same man (gettleman) to select the next HC.
If ownership believes that pat to be such a bad hire that he should be fired in 2 years (I agree) not sure how you have confidence that the same man (gettleman) to select the next HC.
gettleman is not the sole force in head coaching hires, everyone knows mara has final say and is very active in this regard. it's why we ended up with mcadoo.
also, i believe shurmur was the third or fourth choice with gettleman preferring wilks or patricia
If ownership believes that pat to be such a bad hire that he should be fired in 2 years (I agree) not sure how you have confidence that the same man (gettleman) to select the next HC.
gettleman is not the sole force in head coaching hires, everyone knows mara has final say and is very active in this regard. it's why we ended up with mcadoo.
also, i believe shurmur was the third or fourth choice with gettleman preferring wilks or patricia
You're in overdrive - on the other thread you say it was Shurmur not Gettleman who wanted OBJ out, now Gettleman had no say in hiring Shurmur.
What's next - Shurmur waterboarded Gettleman until he traded for Leonard Williams?
I get that he needs all the help he can get, but that doesn't excuse just pulling it out of your ass. He hired Shurmur, the 'adult in the room' - and I'm sure Mara had his say as well. And he's the one who traded OBJ..
Quote:
in fairness to gettleman,
japanhead : 9:17 pm : link : reply
i think he's made every effort to accommodate his coaches and their vision. i'm no insider, but supposedly it was shurmur who wanted beckham gone. shurmur who wanted to draft lauletta. bettcher who wanted bethea and ogletree.
i don't think gettleman is just going it alone and saying fuck what his coaches want. i got the sense that that might've been the case a bit with reese/ross and coughlin, but not here.
didn't hire the coach, didn't make the major roster decisions (trading for Ogletree, trading OBJ), didn't decide to keep Eli, but somehow is considered the GM and lauded for the picks that his supporters actually believe are good (despite any empirical evidence to support).
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
better. shurmur being the third or fourth choice is something i read here, from a more credible poster.
i also think the obj trade was a good move, no matter if shurmur hated beckham, or gettleman and shurmur both hated beckham.
my only point, at all, is that gettleman is not the sole arbiter of personnel decisions or staff hires, so that laying everything 100% at his feet is probably misguided.
this is likely one of the bigger issues with the franchise- that the basic structure is collaborative to the point that it is a too many cooks spoiling the soup situation.
that all said i 100% believe shurmur is a far bigger problem than gettleman is.
ultimately i'd like to see mara bring in a head of football operations and let them go to work and relinquish control completely.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
That's fucking laughable - it requires someone to actually believe Ogletree is a good linebacker, not just the same shit the Giants have had forever, just paid a lot more and at the expense two draft picks to acquire.
Faith in Gettleman? Faith might be the only way he turns out to be a useful GM. Start praying now and hope for divine intervention, because nothing he's done thus far should give you reason to believe he's going to right this ship.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
are you joking?
we traded a 4th round pick for a guy who plays at below replacement level performance--- and we have to pay him a shit ton of money every year for below avg performance.
at least with Jerry when our LBers sucked, it meant that we were spending $ elsewhere on the team.
With DG, not only do our LBers suck, they are taking up a lot of capsace
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
There is nothing we can say to those who support Gettletrash that will convince them otherwise
not hanging Solder's contract over the neck of Eli
not signing Jonathan Stewart to 4m/year & then drafting Barkley to pay him 5m/year
not trading for a below average mLB and hanging that contract over Mara's neck
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
not trading away the entire core of the defense (jpp/vernon) and getting NOTHINg so far in return
yeah none of those things
this roster is so bad, you can barely even say that they are underperforming.
Hello?? the team is 2-9 and we can't even argue that they are underperforming. it took 2-9 for the "fire Shurmur" chorus to finally reach the streets. Is that an indictment on Shurmur?
Is the fact that the defensive roster for 2 years straight been complete utter garbage shurmurs fault? butchers fault?
is the fact that there are "starters" on this defense playing 60 snaps a game who wouldn't even SNIFF 10 snaps on an average defense Shurmurs fault? Bettchers fault?
I cannot believe how much contorting people put themselves through to argue that
1/ Shurmur is "definitely" underperforming given his roster
2/ bettcher has so much talent on this defense!!!!
---> yeah lets just fire Shurmur instead of addressing the real issue:
the guy who puts the roster together and approves all of the drafts, FAs, and coaches.
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
There is nothing we can say to those who support Gettletrash that will convince them otherwise
not hanging Solder's contract over the neck of Eli
not signing Jonathan Stewart to 4m/year & then drafting Barkley to pay him 5m/year
not trading for a below average mLB and hanging that contract over Mara's neck
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
not trading away the entire core of the defense (jpp/vernon) and getting NOTHINg so far in return
yeah none of those things
this roster is so bad, you can barely even say that they are underperforming.
Hello?? the team is 2-9 and we can't even argue that they are underperforming. it took 2-9 for the "fire Shurmur" chorus to finally reach the streets. Is that an indictment on Shurmur?
Is the fact that the defensive roster for 2 years straight been complete utter garbage shurmurs fault? butchers fault?
is the fact that there are "starters" on this defense playing 60 snaps a game who wouldn't even SNIFF 10 snaps on an average defense Shurmurs fault? Bettchers fault?
I cannot believe how much contorting people put themselves through to argue that
1/ Shurmur is "definitely" underperforming given his roster
2/ bettcher has so much talent on this defense!!!!
---> yeah lets just fire Shurmur instead of addressing the real issue:
the guy who puts the roster together and approves all of the drafts, FAs, and coaches.
They defend Gettleman because they like him. He's a big, fat "plain talker" and he has contempt for the press and for elitist nerds. They loved when he made fun of nerdy analytics guys "pretend typing" and they love when he was trolling the media. He reminds them of themselves and what they want to be. He is reminiscent of another big, fat ignoramus who abhors facts. But really he is just stupid and his tenure is rife with colossal mistakes.
Why can't the Giants get ahead of the curve for once. The best team in the league has a 27 year old geek on the headset with the coach all game long. Do you think that's a fucking coincidence? The fan base should be begging that the Giants employ the best state of the art analytics program in the league. It's what the Yankees do. Why don't we?
Why in today’s age where data and analytics iare considered absolutely a priority in all major sports, did Mara hire a guy who thinks it’s funny to make fun of said analytics?
Who thinks a RB is divinely sent? Who fell in love with a QB after watching a senior bowl practice. Who ignores the value of draft picks, assuming he “likes” a player. Ogletree and Williams are two prime examples where Gettleman ignored the data AND paid dearly in draft picks.
How many defense tackles has he acquired over the past two seasons. And yet, compare that to how many edge rushers.
Everybody and their brother knew tsking a RB at the second slot in the draft is poor strategy. You just don’t tie up so much of your cap in a position where the average career span is less than five years.
Shurmur is a horrible coach but Gettleman is his equal as a game.
Better to let new GM chose (with Mara) the next HC. I am not so sure the Giants will attract the best talent unless ownership takes a step back. I also believe that hitting on a new GM and HC will not be easy. Some of the names mentioned like Tomlin not so sure will be available. Garrett failed at Dallas.
For all the DG hate people rarely mention that he drafted our QB. Some do not like the pick. Ownership should make it clear to the new regime that DG stays.
The last bit of information was a few weeks ago. Â
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
you know this? Really? You know there were better offers from other teams? you know he did not shop OBJ around the league effectively?
Amazing that a random poster here on BBI knows all of the offers we received from other teams.
Based upon OBJs performance the 18 months leading up to his trade AND his production this year, it seems like a fair trade.
The laws of supply and demand are always an indication of reality... not your perception of reality. If other teams felt like giving up more for OBJ, then you would have seen a different trade.
I was not a fan of hiring Gettleman but you have to look at these things objectively. Those who defend him at all costs are not being objective. Neither are you... or you just dont know WTF you are talking about. Pick one...
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
you know this? Really? You know there were better offers from other teams? you know he did not shop OBJ around the league effectively?
Amazing that a random poster here on BBI knows all of the offers we received from other teams.
Based upon OBJs performance the 18 months leading up to his trade AND his production this year, it seems like a fair trade.
The laws of supply and demand are always an indication of reality... not your perception of reality. If other teams felt like giving up more for OBJ, then you would have seen a different trade.
I was not a fan of hiring Gettleman but you have to look at these things objectively. Those who defend him at all costs are not being objective. Neither are you... or you just dont know WTF you are talking about. Pick one...
and its combing over not cumming over.. Unless they were offering nude cheerleaders.
RE: The last bit of information was a few weeks ago. Â
Bettcher was a dead man walking then. Shurmur was staying.
Now? I can't foresee any scenario where the entire coaching staff is kept. DG will survive.
From what I have been told through channels is Shurmur is gone as well. Have not heard anything about DG staying or going. I'll reach out to my friend who has a friend in the organization and see if he has any new info. Hopefully they ran into each other over the holiday weekend
DG is responsible for the entire team, the coach, the players. If SHurmur is gone, DG has to go. If DG stays I want Shurmur to stay too. They have to live and die together.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
You can apply to the "Defenders of the Faith" club by contacting www.nygiantchuckleheadfans.com. Once they process your application you will be asked to send your size and a jacket with your name embroidered on it will be sent to you. Please wear it when posting comments such as the above in the future.
Thank you
RE: im not making shit up to make gettleman look Â
better. shurmur being the third or fourth choice is something i read here, from a more credible poster.
i also think the obj trade was a good move, no matter if shurmur hated beckham, or gettleman and shurmur both hated beckham.
my only point, at all, is that gettleman is not the sole arbiter of personnel decisions or staff hires, so that laying everything 100% at his feet is probably misguided.
this is likely one of the bigger issues with the franchise- that the basic structure is collaborative to the point that it is a too many cooks spoiling the soup situation.
that all said i 100% believe shurmur is a far bigger problem than gettleman is.
ultimately i'd like to see mara bring in a head of football operations and let them go to work and relinquish control completely.
If all of these decisions are group decisions, I assume you also consider the fact that many of the draft picks you like may not have been the guy DG wanted? Or are only the poor decisions group decisions?
If he doesn't get credit for the free agents and trades, please also be sure to disperse credit for picks like Jones or Slayton which may have also been forced on him.
I doubt that pick was forced on him. But it certainly was a collaborative decision. Both Shurmur and Gettleman talk about Jones like he walks on water.
From the BBI coaching list - assistant level / unit lebel Â
Banks and Papa were just killing the coaching staff, naing Bettcher and Shurmur. I doubt that happens if the word wasn't out.
Just my 2 cents, but am I supposed to believe that all of these high draft picks, many of whom showed promise last year, all suck and can't play? I doubt it. The coaching sucks. nobody improves, and they don't play to the strengths of the players drafted. SPielman was KILLIN Bettcher on the TV yesterday, one specific instance were he froze the aerial of their zone, nobody in front of them, but nobody looking behond them, asked why they are "covering grass". No pass ruxsh, but play asoft zone? Against Aaron Rodgers?? WTF.
And now they have Barkley playing out of McAdoo's enpty backfield shot gun. UGH.
Whoever the nes coah is, NO WCO PLEASE!
I have not heard an in-game color commentator like Spielman Â
make such pointed comments like that in quite a while.
Usually they give their insight in parallel with giving the coaches some benefit of the doubt, but Spielman was basically saying the Giant defense hasn't a clue as to what they should be doing.
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
you know this? Really? You know there were better offers from other teams? you know he did not shop OBJ around the league effectively?
No one knows whether we had better offers but we do know that he did not shop OBJ effectively. Don't you remember Gettleman's pearl of wisdom that you don't call other teams to initiate trade discussions because then you're dealing from a position of weakness?
I'm thinking of selling my car but I'm not going to let anyone know. I can't wait until the offers start rolling in!
Gettleman is incompetent and needs to go at the end of this season.
No one knows whether we had better offers but we do know that he did not shop OBJ effectively. Don't you remember Gettleman's pearl of wisdom that you don't call other teams to initiate trade discussions because then you're dealing from a position of weakness?
I'm thinking of selling my car but I'm not going to let anyone know. I can't wait until the offers start rolling in!
Gettleman is incompetent and needs to go at the end of this season.
That is not how it works in the NFL. If you think he did not shop the guy, then you and all of the other believers are nuts. Just because he made that comment? None of us believe Gettleman when he opens his mouth anyway. So, why believe that statement about not shopping a player? By the way, he is correct about coming from a position of weakness in a negotiation.
The entire world could see the situation and challenges the Giants were having with OBJ. Any GM who coveted OBJ would pick up the phone and initiate a discussion about his availability.
We can all wish for a new GM but that does not mean everything he did was wrong.
Bottom line...
Nobody knows whether other teams truly had interest
Nobody knows whether DG "shopped" him around the league
Nobody knows what the other offers were outside of what we got from Cleveland
Keep speculating
RE: i am saying mara has a say in coaching hires Â
No one knows whether we had better offers but we do know that he did not shop OBJ effectively. Don't you remember Gettleman's pearl of wisdom that you don't call other teams to initiate trade discussions because then you're dealing from a position of weakness?
I'm thinking of selling my car but I'm not going to let anyone know. I can't wait until the offers start rolling in!
Gettleman is incompetent and needs to go at the end of this season.
That is not how it works in the NFL. If you think he did not shop the guy, then you and all of the other believers are nuts. Just because he made that comment? None of us believe Gettleman when he opens his mouth anyway. So, why believe that statement about not shopping a player? By the way, he is correct about coming from a position of weakness in a negotiation.
The entire world could see the situation and challenges the Giants were having with OBJ. Any GM who coveted OBJ would pick up the phone and initiate a discussion about his availability.
We can all wish for a new GM but that does not mean everything he did was wrong.
Bottom line...
Nobody knows whether other teams truly had interest
Nobody knows whether DG "shopped" him around the league
Nobody knows what the other offers were outside of what we got from Cleveland
Keep speculating
It's not speculating when one shares their opinion on something the GM states as fact. Whether it is a fact or not, I have no idea. However, you are speculating that what he said was a lie.
Keep on having faith in the personnel genius who has taken a 3 win team and in two years, delivered you a possibly less than 3 win team.
If ownership believes that pat to be such a bad hire that he should be fired in 2 years (I agree) not sure how you have confidence that the same man (gettleman) to select the next HC.
gettleman is not the sole force in head coaching hires, everyone knows mara has final say and is very active in this regard. it's why we ended up with mcadoo.
also, i believe shurmur was the third or fourth choice with gettleman preferring wilks or patricia
You're in overdrive - on the other thread you say it was Shurmur not Gettleman who wanted OBJ out, now Gettleman had no say in hiring Shurmur.
What's next - Shurmur waterboarded Gettleman until he traded for Leonard Williams?
No, he just tickled him until he couldn't stand it any longer.
didn't hire the coach, didn't make the major roster decisions (trading for Ogletree, trading OBJ), didn't decide to keep Eli, but somehow is considered the GM and lauded for the picks that his supporters actually believe are good (despite any empirical evidence to support).
Are we reading the same posts? A good portion of BBI is down on "Teflon dave".
Hi Jon. Thanks for chiming in. I think a few of us might be confused about "not looking good." In my case, that would mean it's not looking good that there would be any changes at all. LOL. That's my personal worst-case scenario. I'm guess, however, that you mean it doesn't look good for Murmer. Any sense of how the wind is blowing re our GM?
Shurmur and his coaches, the local media that covers the team the closest has been beating them up big time lately. That's usually the first indicator change is in the air.
With DG, we know the Giants tend to not fire GMs. I don't think he's a goner.
...but I don't see the value in firing Gettleman. Really, I don't. A massive regime change will guarantee set us backwards - yes, that's possible.
He's been here two seasons. Both of his drafts have been good. He's been largely in cap management/recovery mode.
His philosophy as to how to fix the team is one I agree with. I'm personally convinced it's the coaching that's failing us.
Gettleman's failures: free agency to date, coach selection.
Issue for me is, most of you are giving him one chance. I'm not in this crowd. I'm giving Gettleman two more seasons. He needs to succeed in free agency these next two season (he'll have money). He needs to succeed in his next coach hire.
After that, if we're still here in two seasons, then yeah, I'll be happy to move on from him.
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Better now than in two years. If they haven't learned yet the folly of half measures, I don't know what it will take.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: we're still mad about obj? Â
Keep on having faith in the personnel genius who has taken a 3 win team and in two years, delivered you a possibly less than 3 win team.
I personally do not necessarily have faith in him. However, since we universally agree that the coach is horrible, are we sure the additions are the problem or the coaching?
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Honestly, there's an argument to be made that suggesting that moving on from Shurmur would be enough of a jolt. The new head coach would HAVE to be on board with Jones.
It's just unfortunate that we drafted our franchise QB of the future with an utterly incompetent head coach and staff.
I agree. I don't really see any way that they dump DG. And frankly, I'm not in the anti-DG camp, so I'm good with that. All arrows point to the coaches going. I wonder who is on the Mara/DG wish-list. I would still send a pick for Mike Tomlin, but I seem to be alone in that one.
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Better now than in two years. If they haven't learned yet the folly of half measures, I don't know what it will take.
I don't think you'll get your wish on this one, Terps. Suspect, hiring a third new HC within five years will represent enough change for their taste.
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to
build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Then we are seriously limiting the HC pool of candidates and will end up with Garrett or McCarthy - just keep kicking that can down the road. When will it end?
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to
build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Then we are seriously limiting the HC pool of candidates and will end up with Garrett or McCarthy - just keep kicking that can down the road. When will it end?
Who knows? If Abrams is DG's heir apparent, he's a complete unknown quantity in the football area, imo. Not even a football guy, to my knowledge.
Hell, Coughlin wouldn't have been hired in 2004 had it been up to Accorsi. That was Welly's hire.
This is one of the great BBI myths, based largely on the fact that Accorsi said he got bored during Coughlin's opening statement in his first interview.
Accorsi and John Mara interviewed all the head coaching candidates in 2004. Wellington didn't get involved until later in the process, by which point Coughlin had already impressed.
...but I don't see the value in firing Gettleman. Really, I don't. A massive regime change will guarantee set us backwards - yes, that's possible.
He's been here two seasons. Both of his drafts have been good. He's been largely in cap management/recovery mode.
His philosophy as to how to fix the team is one I agree with. I'm personally convinced it's the coaching that's failing us.
Gettleman's failures: free agency to date, coach selection.
Issue for me is, most of you are giving him one chance. I'm not in this crowd. I'm giving Gettleman two more seasons. He needs to succeed in free agency these next two season (he'll have money). He needs to succeed in his next coach hire.
After that, if we're still here in two seasons, then yeah, I'll be happy to move on from him.
I agree with this. He gets the next coaching hire and this year's big Free agency to see what they can do with the pieces he's assembled.
Went in with no intention to watch football. Kept true. Great day. Did not record, did not tune in to the NFL.
Pulled everything Giants off my wish list.
No longer going to get aggravated or annoyed by something that is supposed to entertain me. FUCK IT.
I do not care whose fault it is. If I had to place blame, I place it on us. YUP, you and me. Our fucking fault.
Why?
We show up, we watch and buy their shit when they feed us shit. We eat it with a fucking smile. No more. You should join me. The fuckers you want fired, will be fired if we close our wallets.
Fix it.
I don't care how. This is a multi billion dollar business. Spend some money and figure it out. Hire someone to evaluate you as an owner, the Giants as a team.
No homers.
NEVER Again hire anyone that tells you what you want to hear.
I am not following the team again until they give me a reason to. I will pop in and comment. I enjoy some the people here. Not giving them up. Giant's can bugger off for now. Tired of the rotten taste in my mouth.
You can't fire the coaches after 2 years (implying they're incompetent) and then say they didn't have the players.
If they are being fired this quickly it's because they are underachieving with the players they are given. And that's what's going to happen.
I may be crazy, but this is honestly what I believe.
This should be a 5 win team right now with the personnel they have. Even with the WR lack of depth and injuries.
I don't vividly remember the Handley days anymore, but this team, this year, is incredibly underachieving.
on the top coaching prospects just b/c Mara doesn't like the idea of firing a GM after two years then this team is in far more trouble than any coaching hire can fix. As an owner, you need to do what's in the best long term interest of the franchise. Not what is easy and allows you to stay in your comfort zone.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
Your philosophy is also that they could take a step backwards by firing Gettleman.
They're 2-10 right now. Assuming they're 3-13 when all is said and done, what's a step backward? 2-14? Is that really a risk at this point?
The Giants need desperately to make some heavy duty changes in that front office, otherwise we're due more of the same, just with a different HC's name filling the blank.
I never thought most of them were that good in the first place Â
Leave Barkley aside for the moment.....Hernandez was OK last year, he wasn't some instant star. Carter was the same guy last year he was this year - make a big play here and there and invisible the rest of the time. Lauletta was a completely wasted pick. People got very excited about Hill based largely on one game. McIntosh has been a total nonfactor from day one.
So, then, really you're just talking about Barkley, I assume.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
They had the same coaches last year...
Why would the same coaches set them back this year? That makes no sense.
Real talent tends to shine through even bad coaching. Tends... Not always, sometimes there is one little thing a player needs to learn to break through, and the right coach can make all the difference. I would suggest that is rare though.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
Your philosophy is also that they could take a step backwards by firing Gettleman.
They're 2-10 right now. Assuming they're 3-13 when all is said and done, what's a step backward? 2-14? Is that really a risk at this point?
The Giants need desperately to make some heavy duty changes in that front office, otherwise we're due more of the same, just with a different HC's name filling the blank.
Your argument is logical. I just am not convinced this should be a 2-3 win team.
I blame the entire coaching staff. Everyone but special teams should go.
Going backwards as a franchise is more than just a simple judgment of record. A new GM would potentially involved rebooting the franchise again.
I just don't believe we need a full reboot. It could take another two years just to get to this point again.
I'm holding the proverbial gun to Gettleman's head though. Now, he has money. He's been cleaning up Reese's financial shit for the past 18 months, but that time is over.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
Your philosophy is also that they could take a step backwards by firing Gettleman.
They're 2-10 right now. Assuming they're 3-13 when all is said and done, what's a step backward? 2-14? Is that really a risk at this point?
The Giants need desperately to make some heavy duty changes in that front office, otherwise we're due more of the same, just with a different HC's name filling the blank.
Your argument is logical. I just am not convinced this should be a 2-3 win team.
I blame the entire coaching staff. Everyone but special teams should go.
Going backwards as a franchise is more than just a simple judgment of record. A new GM would potentially involved rebooting the franchise again.
I just don't believe we need a full reboot. It could take another two years just to get to this point again.
I'm holding the proverbial gun to Gettleman's head though. Now, he has money. He's been cleaning up Reese's financial shit for the past 18 months, but that time is over.
Reese's financial shit? Gettleman created more of the dead money on this year's cap than Reese did. Gettleman's financial shit has been just as damning as whatever residual mess he had to clean up.
Gettleman is very fortunate that so many fans think he's been more handcuffed by Reese's errors than he actually has been, otherwise they might actually hold him even a little bit accountable for this shitshow we have.
RE: BBI - the only place on Earth where Teflon Dave Â
didn't hire the coach, didn't make the major roster decisions (trading for Ogletree, trading OBJ), didn't decide to keep Eli, but somehow is considered the GM and lauded for the picks that his supporters actually believe are good (despite any empirical evidence to support).
No one with a clue said that DG didn’t make most if not all the personnel moves here but he did not hire shurmur. Mara did. Maybe dg signed off too maybe not but Mara is the guy hiring the HC according to reports.
In this organization, the Head Coach and QB are joint decisions by ownership and the GM. Hell, Coughlin wouldn't have been hired in 2004 had it been up to Accorsi. That was Welly's hire. John Mara will follow suit and approve this hire, but I wonder if Gettleman is part of the process or just told to "retire" instead. That's what I want to know.
gettleman is not the sole force in head coaching hires, everyone knows mara has final say and is very active in this regard. it's why we ended up with mcadoo.
also, i believe shurmur was the third or fourth choice with gettleman preferring wilks or patricia
Quote:
If ownership believes that pat to be such a bad hire that he should be fired in 2 years (I agree) not sure how you have confidence that the same man (gettleman) to select the next HC.
gettleman is not the sole force in head coaching hires, everyone knows mara has final say and is very active in this regard. it's why we ended up with mcadoo.
also, i believe shurmur was the third or fourth choice with gettleman preferring wilks or patricia
You're in overdrive - on the other thread you say it was Shurmur not Gettleman who wanted OBJ out, now Gettleman had no say in hiring Shurmur.
What's next - Shurmur waterboarded Gettleman until he traded for Leonard Williams?
it has nothing to do with OBJ. what the fuck are you talking about?
in fairness to gettleman,
japanhead : 9:17 pm : link : reply
i think he's made every effort to accommodate his coaches and their vision. i'm no insider, but supposedly it was shurmur who wanted beckham gone. shurmur who wanted to draft lauletta. bettcher who wanted bethea and ogletree.
i don't think gettleman is just going it alone and saying fuck what his coaches want. i got the sense that that might've been the case a bit with reese/ross and coughlin, but not here.
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
i also think the obj trade was a good move, no matter if shurmur hated beckham, or gettleman and shurmur both hated beckham.
my only point, at all, is that gettleman is not the sole arbiter of personnel decisions or staff hires, so that laying everything 100% at his feet is probably misguided.
this is likely one of the bigger issues with the franchise- that the basic structure is collaborative to the point that it is a too many cooks spoiling the soup situation.
that all said i 100% believe shurmur is a far bigger problem than gettleman is.
ultimately i'd like to see mara bring in a head of football operations and let them go to work and relinquish control completely.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
That's fucking laughable - it requires someone to actually believe Ogletree is a good linebacker, not just the same shit the Giants have had forever, just paid a lot more and at the expense two draft picks to acquire.
Faith in Gettleman? Faith might be the only way he turns out to be a useful GM. Start praying now and hope for divine intervention, because nothing he's done thus far should give you reason to believe he's going to right this ship.
lol
ogletree wasnt trash before he got here... would you rather JT Thomas? Cassilas? ooh how about jameel mclain?
its not DG's fault mara didn't want to let go of manning making our head coach prospects slim to none.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
are you joking?
we traded a 4th round pick for a guy who plays at below replacement level performance--- and we have to pay him a shit ton of money every year for below avg performance.
at least with Jerry when our LBers sucked, it meant that we were spending $ elsewhere on the team.
With DG, not only do our LBers suck, they are taking up a lot of capsace
Quote:
is this what the DG hate is still about?
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
There is nothing we can say to those who support Gettletrash that will convince them otherwise
not hanging Solder's contract over the neck of Eli
not signing Jonathan Stewart to 4m/year & then drafting Barkley to pay him 5m/year
not trading for a below average mLB and hanging that contract over Mara's neck
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
not trading away the entire core of the defense (jpp/vernon) and getting NOTHINg so far in return
yeah none of those things
this roster is so bad, you can barely even say that they are underperforming.
Hello?? the team is 2-9 and we can't even argue that they are underperforming. it took 2-9 for the "fire Shurmur" chorus to finally reach the streets. Is that an indictment on Shurmur?
Is the fact that the defensive roster for 2 years straight been complete utter garbage shurmurs fault? butchers fault?
is the fact that there are "starters" on this defense playing 60 snaps a game who wouldn't even SNIFF 10 snaps on an average defense Shurmurs fault? Bettchers fault?
I cannot believe how much contorting people put themselves through to argue that
1/ Shurmur is "definitely" underperforming given his roster
2/ bettcher has so much talent on this defense!!!!
---> yeah lets just fire Shurmur instead of addressing the real issue:
the guy who puts the roster together and approves all of the drafts, FAs, and coaches.
If anyone needs to get fired, its Gettleman.
He let Mara get robbed by the Jets.
the team was 2-7 and he traded the #63rd pick for an unrestricted free agent.
at 2-7. and what do we get in return?
Another big fat contract to hang over Mara's neck.
Quote:
In comment 14698920 Platos said:
Quote:
is this what the DG hate is still about?
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
There is nothing we can say to those who support Gettletrash that will convince them otherwise
not hanging Solder's contract over the neck of Eli
not signing Jonathan Stewart to 4m/year & then drafting Barkley to pay him 5m/year
not trading for a below average mLB and hanging that contract over Mara's neck
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
not trading away the entire core of the defense (jpp/vernon) and getting NOTHINg so far in return
yeah none of those things
this roster is so bad, you can barely even say that they are underperforming.
Hello?? the team is 2-9 and we can't even argue that they are underperforming. it took 2-9 for the "fire Shurmur" chorus to finally reach the streets. Is that an indictment on Shurmur?
Is the fact that the defensive roster for 2 years straight been complete utter garbage shurmurs fault? butchers fault?
is the fact that there are "starters" on this defense playing 60 snaps a game who wouldn't even SNIFF 10 snaps on an average defense Shurmurs fault? Bettchers fault?
I cannot believe how much contorting people put themselves through to argue that
1/ Shurmur is "definitely" underperforming given his roster
2/ bettcher has so much talent on this defense!!!!
---> yeah lets just fire Shurmur instead of addressing the real issue:
the guy who puts the roster together and approves all of the drafts, FAs, and coaches.
If anyone needs to get fired, its Gettleman.
fucking BINGO!!!
Why can't the Giants get ahead of the curve for once. The best team in the league has a 27 year old geek on the headset with the coach all game long. Do you think that's a fucking coincidence? The fan base should be begging that the Giants employ the best state of the art analytics program in the league. It's what the Yankees do. Why don't we?
Who thinks a RB is divinely sent? Who fell in love with a QB after watching a senior bowl practice. Who ignores the value of draft picks, assuming he “likes” a player. Ogletree and Williams are two prime examples where Gettleman ignored the data AND paid dearly in draft picks.
How many defense tackles has he acquired over the past two seasons. And yet, compare that to how many edge rushers.
Everybody and their brother knew tsking a RB at the second slot in the draft is poor strategy. You just don’t tie up so much of your cap in a position where the average career span is less than five years.
Shurmur is a horrible coach but Gettleman is his equal as a game.
They both need to go.
phillsimms
andymilligan
and mcL
its good to know that there are people out there who can still discern facts from hog crap
For all the DG hate people rarely mention that he drafted our QB. Some do not like the pick. Ownership should make it clear to the new regime that DG stays.
Now? I can't foresee any scenario where the entire coaching staff is kept. DG will survive.
Quote:
is this what the DG hate is still about?
No, pretty sure we're ticked off at the fact that the Giants are the 2nd worst team in the league, and they'd be tied for worst if the Bucs kicker hit a makeable FG.
Better coaching wins vs. the Bears.
Rosas misses were due to DeOssie's bad snaps.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
Good, then let him be pro personnel director. He was good at that job. Being the Giants' GM? Not so much.
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
you know this? Really? You know there were better offers from other teams? you know he did not shop OBJ around the league effectively?
Amazing that a random poster here on BBI knows all of the offers we received from other teams.
Based upon OBJs performance the 18 months leading up to his trade AND his production this year, it seems like a fair trade.
The laws of supply and demand are always an indication of reality... not your perception of reality. If other teams felt like giving up more for OBJ, then you would have seen a different trade.
I was not a fan of hiring Gettleman but you have to look at these things objectively. Those who defend him at all costs are not being objective. Neither are you... or you just dont know WTF you are talking about. Pick one...
Quote:
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
you know this? Really? You know there were better offers from other teams? you know he did not shop OBJ around the league effectively?
Amazing that a random poster here on BBI knows all of the offers we received from other teams.
Based upon OBJs performance the 18 months leading up to his trade AND his production this year, it seems like a fair trade.
The laws of supply and demand are always an indication of reality... not your perception of reality. If other teams felt like giving up more for OBJ, then you would have seen a different trade.
I was not a fan of hiring Gettleman but you have to look at these things objectively. Those who defend him at all costs are not being objective. Neither are you... or you just dont know WTF you are talking about. Pick one...
and its combing over not cumming over.. Unless they were offering nude cheerleaders.
Now? I can't foresee any scenario where the entire coaching staff is kept. DG will survive.
From what I have been told through channels is Shurmur is gone as well. Have not heard anything about DG staying or going. I'll reach out to my friend who has a friend in the organization and see if he has any new info. Hopefully they ran into each other over the holiday weekend
Dave, get off the internet and fix this fucking team.
you guys want every acquisition to be a home run but forget our last good ones were when DG was pro personnel director.
have some faith.
You can apply to the "Defenders of the Faith" club by contacting www.nygiantchuckleheadfans.com. Once they process your application you will be asked to send your size and a jacket with your name embroidered on it will be sent to you. Please wear it when posting comments such as the above in the future.
Thank you
i also think the obj trade was a good move, no matter if shurmur hated beckham, or gettleman and shurmur both hated beckham.
my only point, at all, is that gettleman is not the sole arbiter of personnel decisions or staff hires, so that laying everything 100% at his feet is probably misguided.
this is likely one of the bigger issues with the franchise- that the basic structure is collaborative to the point that it is a too many cooks spoiling the soup situation.
that all said i 100% believe shurmur is a far bigger problem than gettleman is.
ultimately i'd like to see mara bring in a head of football operations and let them go to work and relinquish control completely.
If all of these decisions are group decisions, I assume you also consider the fact that many of the draft picks you like may not have been the guy DG wanted? Or are only the poor decisions group decisions?
If he doesn't get credit for the free agents and trades, please also be sure to disperse credit for picks like Jones or Slayton which may have also been forced on him.
Almost zero former NFL players on either side as coaches . Much less recent ones or with a unifying approach .
If someone sees any pattern to them system or experience wise, it's not apparent.
The RB coach appears to be a QB specialist.
I wonder if front desk could compile hours logged .
That would go for front office as well excluding nobody.
Just my 2 cents, but am I supposed to believe that all of these high draft picks, many of whom showed promise last year, all suck and can't play? I doubt it. The coaching sucks. nobody improves, and they don't play to the strengths of the players drafted. SPielman was KILLIN Bettcher on the TV yesterday, one specific instance were he froze the aerial of their zone, nobody in front of them, but nobody looking behond them, asked why they are "covering grass". No pass ruxsh, but play asoft zone? Against Aaron Rodgers?? WTF.
And now they have Barkley playing out of McAdoo's enpty backfield shot gun. UGH.
Whoever the nes coah is, NO WCO PLEASE!
Usually they give their insight in parallel with giving the coaches some benefit of the doubt, but Spielman was basically saying the Giant defense hasn't a clue as to what they should be doing.
Quote:
not cumming over the first offer he received for OBJ instead of doing due diligence
you know this? Really? You know there were better offers from other teams? you know he did not shop OBJ around the league effectively?
No one knows whether we had better offers but we do know that he did not shop OBJ effectively. Don't you remember Gettleman's pearl of wisdom that you don't call other teams to initiate trade discussions because then you're dealing from a position of weakness?
I'm thinking of selling my car but I'm not going to let anyone know. I can't wait until the offers start rolling in!
Gettleman is incompetent and needs to go at the end of this season.
No one knows whether we had better offers but we do know that he did not shop OBJ effectively. Don't you remember Gettleman's pearl of wisdom that you don't call other teams to initiate trade discussions because then you're dealing from a position of weakness?
I'm thinking of selling my car but I'm not going to let anyone know. I can't wait until the offers start rolling in!
Gettleman is incompetent and needs to go at the end of this season.
That is not how it works in the NFL. If you think he did not shop the guy, then you and all of the other believers are nuts. Just because he made that comment? None of us believe Gettleman when he opens his mouth anyway. So, why believe that statement about not shopping a player? By the way, he is correct about coming from a position of weakness in a negotiation.
The entire world could see the situation and challenges the Giants were having with OBJ. Any GM who coveted OBJ would pick up the phone and initiate a discussion about his availability.
We can all wish for a new GM but that does not mean everything he did was wrong.
Bottom line...
Nobody knows whether other teams truly had interest
Nobody knows whether DG "shopped" him around the league
Nobody knows what the other offers were outside of what we got from Cleveland
Keep speculating
it has nothing to do with OBJ. what the fuck are you talking about?
You’re just making stuff up
and no asshats.
almost as absurd as a thread (which i sadly posted on) that gets 150 posts saying you like the roster of this dumpster fire.
Quote:
No one knows whether we had better offers but we do know that he did not shop OBJ effectively. Don't you remember Gettleman's pearl of wisdom that you don't call other teams to initiate trade discussions because then you're dealing from a position of weakness?
I'm thinking of selling my car but I'm not going to let anyone know. I can't wait until the offers start rolling in!
Gettleman is incompetent and needs to go at the end of this season.
That is not how it works in the NFL. If you think he did not shop the guy, then you and all of the other believers are nuts. Just because he made that comment? None of us believe Gettleman when he opens his mouth anyway. So, why believe that statement about not shopping a player? By the way, he is correct about coming from a position of weakness in a negotiation.
The entire world could see the situation and challenges the Giants were having with OBJ. Any GM who coveted OBJ would pick up the phone and initiate a discussion about his availability.
We can all wish for a new GM but that does not mean everything he did was wrong.
Bottom line...
Nobody knows whether other teams truly had interest
Nobody knows whether DG "shopped" him around the league
Nobody knows what the other offers were outside of what we got from Cleveland
Keep speculating
It's not speculating when one shares their opinion on something the GM states as fact. Whether it is a fact or not, I have no idea. However, you are speculating that what he said was a lie.
Keep on having faith in the personnel genius who has taken a 3 win team and in two years, delivered you a possibly less than 3 win team.
Quote:
In comment 14698902 AnskyJK said:
Quote:
If ownership believes that pat to be such a bad hire that he should be fired in 2 years (I agree) not sure how you have confidence that the same man (gettleman) to select the next HC.
gettleman is not the sole force in head coaching hires, everyone knows mara has final say and is very active in this regard. it's why we ended up with mcadoo.
also, i believe shurmur was the third or fourth choice with gettleman preferring wilks or patricia
You're in overdrive - on the other thread you say it was Shurmur not Gettleman who wanted OBJ out, now Gettleman had no say in hiring Shurmur.
What's next - Shurmur waterboarded Gettleman until he traded for Leonard Williams?
No, he just tickled him until he couldn't stand it any longer.
and no asshats.
almost as absurd as a thread (which i sadly posted on) that gets 150 posts saying you like the roster of this dumpster fire.
Until now! You (and JonC) are the resident asshats!
Not looking good for Shurmur, Gettleman or the fans who want them gone?
Not looking good in what sense? For Shurmur (i.e. he's gone) or for us (i.e. he stays)?
Are we reading the same posts? A good portion of BBI is down on "Teflon dave".
Of course not. We're bleeding from the chest with a gun shot wound, but Johnny will just apply a Band Aid.
In comment 14699694 JonC said:
With DG, we know the Giants tend to not fire GMs. I don't think he's a goner.
This would be almost as bad as no change at all.
He's been here two seasons. Both of his drafts have been good. He's been largely in cap management/recovery mode.
His philosophy as to how to fix the team is one I agree with. I'm personally convinced it's the coaching that's failing us.
Gettleman's failures: free agency to date, coach selection.
Issue for me is, most of you are giving him one chance. I'm not in this crowd. I'm giving Gettleman two more seasons. He needs to succeed in free agency these next two season (he'll have money). He needs to succeed in his next coach hire.
After that, if we're still here in two seasons, then yeah, I'll be happy to move on from him.
Better now than in two years. If they haven't learned yet the folly of half measures, I don't know what it will take.
Keep on having faith in the personnel genius who has taken a 3 win team and in two years, delivered you a possibly less than 3 win team.
I personally do not necessarily have faith in him. However, since we universally agree that the coach is horrible, are we sure the additions are the problem or the coaching?
Honestly, there's an argument to be made that suggesting that moving on from Shurmur would be enough of a jolt. The new head coach would HAVE to be on board with Jones.
It's just unfortunate that we drafted our franchise QB of the future with an utterly incompetent head coach and staff.
If they are being fired this quickly it's because they are underachieving with the players they are given. And that's what's going to happen.
In comment 14699743 JonC said:
Quote:
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Better now than in two years. If they haven't learned yet the folly of half measures, I don't know what it will take.
I don't think you'll get your wish on this one, Terps. Suspect, hiring a third new HC within five years will represent enough change for their taste.
build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Then we are seriously limiting the HC pool of candidates and will end up with Garrett or McCarthy - just keep kicking that can down the road. When will it end?
Quote:
if for no other reason than he drafted Jones, and that's their guy to
build around. If they move on from DG, the QB debate could ramp up quickly, and I doubt they want to deal with that option now.
Then we are seriously limiting the HC pool of candidates and will end up with Garrett or McCarthy - just keep kicking that can down the road. When will it end?
Who knows? If Abrams is DG's heir apparent, he's a complete unknown quantity in the football area, imo. Not even a football guy, to my knowledge.
No. They hope they win, but they're not trying to win.
This is one of the great BBI myths, based largely on the fact that Accorsi said he got bored during Coughlin's opening statement in his first interview.
Accorsi and John Mara interviewed all the head coaching candidates in 2004. Wellington didn't get involved until later in the process, by which point Coughlin had already impressed.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
He's been here two seasons. Both of his drafts have been good. He's been largely in cap management/recovery mode.
His philosophy as to how to fix the team is one I agree with. I'm personally convinced it's the coaching that's failing us.
Gettleman's failures: free agency to date, coach selection.
Issue for me is, most of you are giving him one chance. I'm not in this crowd. I'm giving Gettleman two more seasons. He needs to succeed in free agency these next two season (he'll have money). He needs to succeed in his next coach hire.
After that, if we're still here in two seasons, then yeah, I'll be happy to move on from him.
I agree with this. He gets the next coaching hire and this year's big Free agency to see what they can do with the pieces he's assembled.
Pulled everything Giants off my wish list.
No longer going to get aggravated or annoyed by something that is supposed to entertain me. FUCK IT.
I do not care whose fault it is. If I had to place blame, I place it on us. YUP, you and me. Our fucking fault.
Why?
We show up, we watch and buy their shit when they feed us shit. We eat it with a fucking smile. No more. You should join me. The fuckers you want fired, will be fired if we close our wallets.
Fix it.
I don't care how. This is a multi billion dollar business. Spend some money and figure it out. Hire someone to evaluate you as an owner, the Giants as a team.
No homers.
NEVER Again hire anyone that tells you what you want to hear.
I am not following the team again until they give me a reason to. I will pop in and comment. I enjoy some the people here. Not giving them up. Giant's can bugger off for now. Tired of the rotten taste in my mouth.
If they are being fired this quickly it's because they are underachieving with the players they are given. And that's what's going to happen.
I may be crazy, but this is honestly what I believe.
This should be a 5 win team right now with the personnel they have. Even with the WR lack of depth and injuries.
I don't vividly remember the Handley days anymore, but this team, this year, is incredibly underachieving.
Quote:
Both of his drafts have been good.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
So shumur is back
Quote:
In comment 14699740 islander1 said:
Quote:
Both of his drafts have been good.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
Your philosophy is also that they could take a step backwards by firing Gettleman.
They're 2-10 right now. Assuming they're 3-13 when all is said and done, what's a step backward? 2-14? Is that really a risk at this point?
The Giants need desperately to make some heavy duty changes in that front office, otherwise we're due more of the same, just with a different HC's name filling the blank.
So, then, really you're just talking about Barkley, I assume.
Quote:
In comment 14699740 islander1 said:
Quote:
Both of his drafts have been good.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
They had the same coaches last year...
Why would the same coaches set them back this year? That makes no sense.
Real talent tends to shine through even bad coaching. Tends... Not always, sometimes there is one little thing a player needs to learn to break through, and the right coach can make all the difference. I would suggest that is rare though.
Quote:
In comment 14699812 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14699740 islander1 said:
Quote:
Both of his drafts have been good.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
Your philosophy is also that they could take a step backwards by firing Gettleman.
They're 2-10 right now. Assuming they're 3-13 when all is said and done, what's a step backward? 2-14? Is that really a risk at this point?
The Giants need desperately to make some heavy duty changes in that front office, otherwise we're due more of the same, just with a different HC's name filling the blank.
Your argument is logical. I just am not convinced this should be a 2-3 win team.
I blame the entire coaching staff. Everyone but special teams should go.
Going backwards as a franchise is more than just a simple judgment of record. A new GM would potentially involved rebooting the franchise again.
I just don't believe we need a full reboot. It could take another two years just to get to this point again.
I'm holding the proverbial gun to Gettleman's head though. Now, he has money. He's been cleaning up Reese's financial shit for the past 18 months, but that time is over.
Quote:
In comment 14700132 islander1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14699812 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14699740 islander1 said:
Quote:
Both of his drafts have been good.
That is highly, HIGHLY, arguable, especially with 2018.
I suppose it is.
I guess that depends on how you view the class of '18.
One philosophy is that the players were never as good as we thought they were, despite last year.
My philosophy is that they have all gone backwards due to poor coaching.
Your philosophy is also that they could take a step backwards by firing Gettleman.
They're 2-10 right now. Assuming they're 3-13 when all is said and done, what's a step backward? 2-14? Is that really a risk at this point?
The Giants need desperately to make some heavy duty changes in that front office, otherwise we're due more of the same, just with a different HC's name filling the blank.
Your argument is logical. I just am not convinced this should be a 2-3 win team.
I blame the entire coaching staff. Everyone but special teams should go.
Going backwards as a franchise is more than just a simple judgment of record. A new GM would potentially involved rebooting the franchise again.
I just don't believe we need a full reboot. It could take another two years just to get to this point again.
I'm holding the proverbial gun to Gettleman's head though. Now, he has money. He's been cleaning up Reese's financial shit for the past 18 months, but that time is over.
Reese's financial shit? Gettleman created more of the dead money on this year's cap than Reese did. Gettleman's financial shit has been just as damning as whatever residual mess he had to clean up.
Gettleman is very fortunate that so many fans think he's been more handcuffed by Reese's errors than he actually has been, otherwise they might actually hold him even a little bit accountable for this shitshow we have.
No one with a clue said that DG didn’t make most if not all the personnel moves here but he did not hire shurmur. Mara did. Maybe dg signed off too maybe not but Mara is the guy hiring the HC according to reports.