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Shurmur is gone, what's the reason for keeping DG?

Jim in Forest Hills : 12/2/2019 8:53 am
I agree with Matt SGS's posts re Shurmur. The Giants in house have turned on him. Starting from last week you saw Papa/Banks and Cross questioning his decision making. That definitely sends the message that he is being thrown under the bus. Shurmur's PCs now acknowledge he's a dead man walking. "I'm a realist"

Now, for those of you that want to keep Gettleman, why? What's the case for keeping him? He hired Shurmur to start, but beyond that the Giants roster is one of the worst in the league. That's 100% on DG.

This is a HUGE offseason. Jones is still cost controlled. Lots of cap space. A vision can be created here and a identity built. What has DG shown you to convince you he should build it?
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I started a thread about this a few weeks ago...  
EricJ : 12/2/2019 9:58 am : link
everyone here asking for Shurmur and DG to be fired and I can get on board with that.

meanwhile, nobody has any realistic recommendations of two hires who..
A. would be an improvement for sure
B. Are available
C. would realistically take the job here

So, in that thread I got stupid replies like "Bill B".
The reasons for keeping Gettleman are that he's drafted well  
Eric on Li : 12/2/2019 10:00 am : link
and created cap room - which are the corner stones of a rebuild. It is no small thing that his best 3 moves are the selections of his highest picks who all look to have multiple pro bowl potential (Barkley, Jones, Lawrence). To a lesser extent guys like Connelly, Hernandez, Carter, Hill, and Slayton are also promising and at least role players.

The biggest factor in his favor is that he has already done well with the QB decision by virtue of the fact that Jones looks as good or better than every other top 20 QB available for them to pick the last 2 years with the possible exception of Josh Allen (though he's clearly better than Allen's rookie year). The media darlings (Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Haskins) have all been worse and DG deserves the credit for making a ballsy pick. Obviously he passed on Lamar Jackson like the rest of the league but he was a boom/bust risk in his own category.

The biggest negative against is that the coaching staff is non-competitive and he obviously had a role in selecting them. Rebuilds rarely lead to winning seasons immediately but they should 100% be better than they are, no question about that. If Giant ownership needs to accommodate a proven coach who wants some level of personnel input, like Harbough, they (and DG) need to be willing to do so.
RE: RE: Well, he seems to be only one able to find talent in the draft.  
BleedBlue : 12/2/2019 10:18 am : link
In comment 14699267 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14699169 George from PA said:


Quote:


We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.

I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.


he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades


Yea you have the benefit of hindsight.


Solder was a quality LT(rare in NFL) wen he was signed. Our OL was in shambles.
IDC about the jstew or Martin signings. Those guys were stop gaps
He drafted a franchise QB and one of the better backs in football. Not to mention he has brought us other quality players in the draft....reese drafted like shit for 6 years straight.
His trades were actually decent..obj is a headcase and Vernon is avg at best. He made a move to solidify the OL. It probably wouldn't look so bad if solder didn't regress like a bitch overnight. Either way getting rid of obj wasn't a bad thing. People are also shitting on the LW trade. I like therisk, he is only 25 and is already our best DL. He will be a nice piece of the front 7 moving forward. In a 34, you have to win the trenches for LBs to make plays.
Our front us good

Now add c young, resign golden and sign a guy like shobert in free agency, Connelly comes back and the front 7 is looking solid.

The back end just needs more experience, they are babies. That being said I still want to see the same group back but put love at FS over bethea and take Haley off the field. I rather see Jenkins get time in slot with Baker and Beal outside over Haley getting toasted every play.

The defense will try around a lot with young and shobert being added and golden and Connelly coming back.

OL is our biggest issue and I expect DG to heavily invest in it again. Maybe j Conklin in FA and best avail OL in 2nd and 3rd. DG hasn't been perfect but our roster has been completely turned over ....it takes some time especially when Reese was seriously inept at finding talent past round 1
Because ownership hates firing GMs  
David B. : 12/2/2019 10:19 am : link
That's THE reason.

Objectively . . .

In the draft, it looks like he's found the next Franchise QB, a generational RB, a 5th round WR who's been a steal, and some young, building-block players who will hopefully become solid starters -- none of them look like impact players. If he keeps drafting in the top 5, he might find some.

You can't EXPECT 3rd and 5th round guys like Carter and Ximines to become impact players. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Justin Tuck, but that's more the exception than the rule.

Other than Jones and Slayton, all last year's draft picks were (rightfully) on defense. Obviously, there's still a ton of work to be done. Trading up for Baker doesn't look like a good move at the moment, but another coordinator might use him to his strengths rather than to his weakness.

Outside of the draft, he obviously hired the wrong coach. I don't know who the RIGHT coach would have been at the time he hired Shurmer. None of the available options at the time looked much better then or now. Shurmer hiring Betcher looked like a great move at the time, but it doesn't matter who the coaches are when the players suck. We saw that with Spags, and we're seeing it with Betcher.

In trades, he turned guys like Apple and Snacks into draft picks. And with so many holes to fill, he turned his biggest asset, Beckham, into 3 players. Anyone think having Beckham this year would have translated to many more wins?

He swapped a decent, but always-injured pass rusher for a seldom-injured pro-bowl OG. He rightly let Collins walk, and replaced him with a younger, cheaper player. Other guys he let walk (Okwara and Kennard) turned into better players on other teams.

He's applied some band-aids to the OL at the OT spots, which helped a little -- but not enough. He clearly needs to upgrade both OTs and the OC.

Golden turned out to be a good gamble, but he also gambled on some FAs like Stewart and Bethea who were too old to be effective.

It's not clear why he didn't move Jackrabbit at the trade deadline and get something for him. They clearly weren't going to contend this year. Maybe none of the offers we good enough. Maybe he moves him before the draft to recoup a pick.

He gave up draft picks for Williams -- you got me there, I don't get that either. Why not just sign him when he hits the market? Plenty of cap room next season. Perhaps the thinking was they can sign him cheaper if he's already a Giant. Who knows? Right now, it looks like they needlessly gave up a very high 3 and a 5, for a good, but not great player.

I think Williams will be a good foundational building block who, like Lawrence, may both look a LOT better if they can finds some stud edge rushers to complement them. There is good depth at DT.

So yeah, a few hits, and a bunch of misses, and some young guys where the book is still out.

I think the biggest mistake was Shurmer, and that one makes everything else look worse. However, if Jones is the real deal (and they avoid the Brown/Graham/Kanell years), that will be a huge feather in DG's hat, and earn him some leeway.

Regardless of what he (and all GMs) say publicly, this was ALWAYS going to be AT LEAST a 3-year rebuild. And probably longer if they start over with a new coaching staff.

This offseason, he'll have at least 2 high draft picks, and a lot of cap money for FAs. He needs to come away with a stud Pass Rusher, and a quality, starting OT, and hopefully some LB help.

And it looks like he'll need to find a new head coach as well. Though I'm still not 100% convinced they're going to fire Shurmer. On one hand, they always wait a year to long to pull the plug. On the other, there are empty seats, and that tends to trump everything.

Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.







RE: The reasons for keeping Gettleman are that he's drafted well  
Giantz_comeback : 12/2/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14699353 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
and created cap room - which are the corner stones of a rebuild. It is no small thing that his best 3 moves are the selections of his highest picks who all look to have multiple pro bowl potential (Barkley, Jones, Lawrence). To a lesser extent guys like Connelly, Hernandez, Carter, Hill, and Slayton are also promising and at least role players.

The biggest factor in his favor is that he has already done well with the QB decision by virtue of the fact that Jones looks as good or better than every other top 20 QB available for them to pick the last 2 years with the possible exception of Josh Allen (though he's clearly better than Allen's rookie year). The media darlings (Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Haskins) have all been worse and DG deserves the credit for making a ballsy pick. Obviously he passed on Lamar Jackson like the rest of the league but he was a boom/bust risk in his own category.

The biggest negative against is that the coaching staff is non-competitive and he obviously had a role in selecting them. Rebuilds rarely lead to winning seasons immediately but they should 100% be better than they are, no question about that. If Giant ownership needs to accommodate a proven coach who wants some level of personnel input, like Harbough, they (and DG) need to be willing to do so.


Good post. And regarding the staff assembled 2 seasons ago, that was a really ,really thin year for prime coaching candidates. This year may have more potentially solid to even great guys available.
RE: Gettleman gets a B in his drafts?  
Justlurking : 12/2/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14699294 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Seems extremely generous given that his 2018 class has completely flopped.


The overrating of the 2018 draft is incredible. Even Saquon looks like a JAG this season.
RE: Because ownership hates firing GMs  
Giantz_comeback : 12/2/2019 10:33 am : link
In comment 14699415 David B. said:
Quote:
That's THE reason.

Objectively . . .

In the draft, it looks like he's found the next Franchise QB, a generational RB, a 5th round WR who's been a steal, and some young, building-block players who will hopefully become solid starters -- none of them look like impact players. If he keeps drafting in the top 5, he might find some.

You can't EXPECT 3rd and 5th round guys like Carter and Ximines to become impact players. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Justin Tuck, but that's more the exception than the rule.

Other than Jones and Slayton, all last year's draft picks were (rightfully) on defense. Obviously, there's still a ton of work to be done. Trading up for Baker doesn't look like a good move at the moment, but another coordinator might use him to his strengths rather than to his weakness.

Outside of the draft, he obviously hired the wrong coach. I don't know who the RIGHT coach would have been at the time he hired Shurmer. None of the available options at the time looked much better then or now. Shurmer hiring Betcher looked like a great move at the time, but it doesn't matter who the coaches are when the players suck. We saw that with Spags, and we're seeing it with Betcher.

In trades, he turned guys like Apple and Snacks into draft picks. And with so many holes to fill, he turned his biggest asset, Beckham, into 3 players. Anyone think having Beckham this year would have translated to many more wins?

He swapped a decent, but always-injured pass rusher for a seldom-injured pro-bowl OG. He rightly let Collins walk, and replaced him with a younger, cheaper player. Other guys he let walk (Okwara and Kennard) turned into better players on other teams.

He's applied some band-aids to the OL at the OT spots, which helped a little -- but not enough. He clearly needs to upgrade both OTs and the OC.

Golden turned out to be a good gamble, but he also gambled on some FAs like Stewart and Bethea who were too old to be effective.

It's not clear why he didn't move Jackrabbit at the trade deadline and get something for him. They clearly weren't going to contend this year. Maybe none of the offers we good enough. Maybe he moves him before the draft to recoup a pick.

He gave up draft picks for Williams -- you got me there, I don't get that either. Why not just sign him when he hits the market? Plenty of cap room next season. Perhaps the thinking was they can sign him cheaper if he's already a Giant. Who knows? Right now, it looks like they needlessly gave up a very high 3 and a 5, for a good, but not great player.

I think Williams will be a good foundational building block who, like Lawrence, may both look a LOT better if they can finds some stud edge rushers to complement them. There is good depth at DT.

So yeah, a few hits, and a bunch of misses, and some young guys where the book is still out.

I think the biggest mistake was Shurmer, and that one makes everything else look worse. However, if Jones is the real deal (and they avoid the Brown/Graham/Kanell years), that will be a huge feather in DG's hat, and earn him some leeway.

Regardless of what he (and all GMs) say publicly, this was ALWAYS going to be AT LEAST a 3-year rebuild. And probably longer if they start over with a new coaching staff.

This offseason, he'll have at least 2 high draft picks, and a lot of cap money for FAs. He needs to come away with a stud Pass Rusher, and a quality, starting OT, and hopefully some LB help.

And it looks like he'll need to find a new head coach as well. Though I'm still not 100% convinced they're going to fire Shurmer. On one hand, they always wait a year to long to pull the plug. On the other, there are empty seats, and that tends to trump everything.

Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.








When Webster was utilized the best way by Spags we saw how he played. Baker has flashed, he looks pretty good when he clearly knows his assignment and/or is playing in man. Carter looks like a bust as a pass rusher. Ximines it's still early but the results aren't exactly promising as of yet. Golden is legit and needs to be resigned.
Carter isn't a bust  
David B. : 12/2/2019 10:50 am : link
He was a 3rd round pick. He's starting, he's active, and applying pressure. He's just not getting sacks. You hope you get lucky (especially when you NEED some luck) but 3rd rounders seldom become big difference-makers on their own. Everyone wanted to see a BIG jump in his game, and it hasn't come. The arrow may still be pointing up on him but he doesn't appear to be headed for stardom. Again, a LOT of the DL guys might look a whole lot better if the Giants get even ONE stud pass rusher that defenses have to worry about.
DG Will Stay  
Rong5611 : 12/2/2019 11:00 am : link
So will Shurmur if they manage to win a few down the stretch...(which is a stretch).

I think Bettcher is gone regardless of Shurmur's status.
RE: RE: RE: Well, he seems to be only one able to find talent in the draft.  
V.I.G. : 12/2/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14699405 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14699267 V.I.G. said:


he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades

Quote:


Yea you have the benefit of hindsight.


Solder was a quality LT(rare in NFL) wen he was signed. Our OL was in shambles.
IDC about the jstew or Martin signings. Those guys were stop gaps
He drafted a franchise QB and one of the better backs in football. Not to mention he has brought us other quality players in the draft....reese drafted like shit for 6 years straight.
His trades were actually decent..obj is a headcase and Vernon is avg at best. He made a move to solidify the OL. It probably wouldn't look so bad if solder didn't regress like a bitch overnight. Either way getting rid of obj wasn't a bad thing. People are also shitting on the LW trade. I like therisk, he is only 25 and is already our best DL. He will be a nice piece of the front 7 moving forward. In a 34, you have to win the trenches for LBs to make plays.
Our front us good

Now add c young, resign golden and sign a guy like shobert in free agency, Connelly comes back and the front 7 is looking solid.

The back end just needs more experience, they are babies. That being said I still want to see the same group back but put love at FS over bethea and take Haley off the field. I rather see Jenkins get time in slot with Baker and Beal outside over Haley getting toasted every play.

The defense will try around a lot with young and shobert being added and golden and Connelly coming back.

OL is our biggest issue and I expect DG to heavily invest in it again. Maybe j Conklin in FA and best avail OL in 2nd and 3rd. DG hasn't been perfect but our roster has been completely turned over ....it takes some time especially when Reese was seriously inept at finding talent past round 1

What you call hindsight, I call results. That I don't have the skills or experience to make the decisions, does not mean I cannot keep score. And the results of most of his decisions have been bad and collectively have led to this product on the field.

Relative arguments that he was better than Reese are not persuasive. I wanted to get rid of Reese years before Mara did. I want to lose DG now and unfortunately will have to wait years.
'what's the reason for keeping DG?'  
Torrag : 12/2/2019 2:24 pm : link
If you aren't completely blind and can see individual athletic ability you can see this team has talent. It's not been properly coached and deployed to succeed. That's why DG should and will be retained. He and the ownership failed to hire the right head coach.

He'll get another crack at it as he should. He should focus on three criteria. Defensive roots, a winning record and ability to put together a coaching staff.
Haven't read all the responses....but...  
Hades07 : 12/2/2019 2:27 pm : link
If you are firing a HC 2 years in, it usually is because the team is expected to have better ability to what is shown on game day. If the team doesn't feel Shurmur got good enough players to compete, then firing him for not competing doesn't make a lot of sense.

If he does have enough talent to compete, justifying his termination, then how does it make sense to fire the guy who provided enough talent to compete?
Part of the reason  
Daniel in MI : 12/2/2019 2:31 pm : link
Is if you figure DG made one primary error in PS and his resultant staff, and there is more talent there than the coaches are getting out of them. And that DG has tried to support them by bringing in so many of Bettcherís guys. But still no avail. He has also brought in guys that did fine elsewhere, and suck here. And we had guys that suck here and do ok elsewhere (OL especially). So maybe see if a better staff can get more and that DG wasnít the primary issue.
Fire DG or don't  
Thegratefulhead : 12/2/2019 3:35 pm : link
I am not watching. Call me a fair weather fan. I will come back to watch and buy merchandise when they start competing. Until then I can just as easily Netflix on a cold Sunday. They are not even trying. Those 2 superbowls were great for us but maybe not so good for the long term success of the franchise. The QB and defense bailed them out. They expected they could do that formula again. There was a lot of good fortune that went our way during those playoff hot streaks. I don't see a repeatable formula there. Barely get into the playoffs then get hot at the right time...yeah that probably isn't going to happen again.
last time  
Thegratefulhead : 12/2/2019 3:41 pm : link
We were favorites to win it all was 1986. We were not favored in 1990, I thought we should have been(I won legit bank) 2007 and 11 we were underdogs in every playoff game and SB. I want to see this team have some sustained success.
Do we really want a guy who won‚Äôt make calls to other teams  
ron mexico : 12/2/2019 3:43 pm : link
To initiate trades entrusted with another top 3 pick?
RE: Because ownership hates firing GMs  
Leg of Theismann : 12/2/2019 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14699415 David B. said:
Quote:


Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.








Ugh. I hate that we root for a franchise that we have to be scared of firing the GM because the heir apparent is clearly even worse. Why not hire a guy with a philosophy from this century's NFL?
The people who keep touting these drafts have to be delusional  
jcn56 : 12/2/2019 4:14 pm : link
Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.

His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.

His FA acquisitions are even worse, if that's imaginable.

The only way you can justify the belief that DG needs to be retained is to think Shurmur is THAT bad. And even then, you'd need to be a little lucky.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/2/2019 4:21 pm : link
He has done such a great job of building up the OL, using almost no resources to do so.

Just one more draft - which shouldn't be hard after two spectacular ones - and we'll be in business.
RE: The people who keep touting these drafts have to be delusional  
Eric on Li : 12/2/2019 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14700093 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.

His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.



Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
Iím in the camp that Dave hasnít been  
darren in pdx : 12/2/2019 4:42 pm : link
as bad as people claim but I understand that people are so frustrated that they want everything gone. This coaching staff absolutely needs to go, I wouldnít be sad if Dave goes but he needs to really do a number if he stays on. The talent is poor but Dave opted to eliminate contracts and eat dead cap this year. I feel like that was wise, but also part of why the team is poor, the coaching just makes it even worse with no progress from the end of last season. Whether itís Dave or someone else, they need to do really well the next two seasons. Another interesting offseason coming up, but Iím pretty apathetic at the moment.
DGís draft grade is still TBD AND he needs to be graded on a curve  
TD : 12/2/2019 5:00 pm : link
Heís drafted 2, 6 and could draft as high as 1 next year if heís here.

Thatís RIDICULOUS draft position for a GM. Reese never pickedhigher than 9 and only picked in single digits that one time. DG SHOULD be slaying the draft. His 20-8 draft is looking more and more like a dud - still TBD but edging closer to dud territory.. picking at the top of each round. Unacceptable.

To put it in perspective, if Reese wanted to trade up to 2 the year he picked 9, he would have had to give up one to two additional #1 picks plus other day 2 picks.

Not to mention DG had three first rounders last year. Thatís five top 34 picks in two years. He sure as fuck better be killing the draft. Still TBD on that.

So letís hold off on giving DG any kudos for drafting just yet...
RE: RE: The people who keep touting these drafts have to be delusional  
jcn56 : 12/2/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14700108 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14700093 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.

His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.





Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.


Hernandez was drafted at the top of the 2nd round and he's part of an AWFUL offensive line. He's underperforming this season. Lawrence was drafted 17th overall - and he's basically a part for part replacement for Snacks who was already under contract.

Barkley was drafted 2nd overall, and he's paid as the 6th highest RB in the league. Worth it?

Connelly played 3 games and was slightly above average on a terrible defense before he got hurt.

Adrien Robinson was a bad 4th round pick. He was drafted with the last non-comp pick of the 4th round, #127. Gettleman drafted Lauletta at the top of the 4th round, and he was gone a season later. He just gave away a 3rd round pick (which will be no later than 65-70) and a 5th round pick (probably around #140, slightly later than Robinson was picked) - for the right to overpay Williams.

Do I need to keep making it obvious how bad Gettleman is at his job?
There is NO good reason  
micky : 12/2/2019 5:31 pm : link
And one begins to try to make one, they are clueless like the owner of this damn team. Excuses etc bullshit.
There are plenty of good reasons to keep DG  
Essex : 12/2/2019 5:40 pm : link
but it is no point in going into it because everybody is out for blood. I want Shurmur gone, but I can live with another year and draft by Gettleman. I think his 2018 is mixed (promising last year disappointing this year), his 2019 draft looks decent--I mean Lawrence will be a player, DJ looks to be a franchise QB if he could work out his rookie turnover issues, Slayton looks to be a definite WR2 in the future. I can go on and on, but I don't mind giving Gettleman a third year and reevaluating after next. The problem with that is obviously if the team still stinks next year and shows no sign of improvement we are stuck with a Coach selected by the outgoing GM. So, I guess the real issue is whether we will commit to Gettleman for another 2-3 years.
RE: RE: RE: The people who keep touting these drafts have to be delusional  
Hades07 : 12/2/2019 5:44 pm : link
In comment 14700241 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14700108 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 14700093 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.

His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.





Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.



Hernandez was drafted at the top of the 2nd round and he's part of an AWFUL offensive line. He's underperforming this season. Lawrence was drafted 17th overall - and he's basically a part for part replacement for Snacks who was already under contract.

Barkley was drafted 2nd overall, and he's paid as the 6th highest RB in the league. Worth it?

Connelly played 3 games and was slightly above average on a terrible defense before he got hurt.

Adrien Robinson was a bad 4th round pick. He was drafted with the last non-comp pick of the 4th round, #127. Gettleman drafted Lauletta at the top of the 4th round, and he was gone a season later. He just gave away a 3rd round pick (which will be no later than 65-70) and a 5th round pick (probably around #140, slightly later than Robinson was picked) - for the right to overpay Williams.

Do I need to keep making it obvious how bad Gettleman is at his job?
it is fair to say that DG hasn't gotten any good players, but then it would be hard to say Shurmur is terrible for not being able to win if he has no good players.
To some extent I pity Shurmur  
jcn56 : 12/2/2019 5:47 pm : link
and Bettcher. They're both going to be tagged as fall guys, when in fact they had no chance with the roster they were given.

That's not to say that I think Shurmur would ever be much more, but his coaching record will have the Browns (perennial doormat) and the Giants (in their awful 70's revival phase), two rosters that I don't think Belichick would stand much of a chance with.

Bettcher is a prime example. He's been a good DC before. Give him a shit roster with no talent, and he looks incompetent. Maybe the talent kept him afloat in AZ, but at least you know he's capable when he has the horses.
RE: To some extent I pity Shurmur  
Essex : 12/2/2019 5:50 pm : link
In comment 14700312 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and Bettcher. They're both going to be tagged as fall guys, when in fact they had no chance with the roster they were given.

That's not to say that I think Shurmur would ever be much more, but his coaching record will have the Browns (perennial doormat) and the Giants (in their awful 70's revival phase), two rosters that I don't think Belichick would stand much of a chance with.

Bettcher is a prime example. He's been a good DC before. Give him a shit roster with no talent, and he looks incompetent. Maybe the talent kept him afloat in AZ, but at least you know he's capable when he has the horses.

I strongly disagree. This is not a good roster, but this is a team that has been involved in a lot of close games this year and last and always seems to lose them. So, while Shurmur has not been given a good hand, he has blown any excuse because his playcalling and game management are just absolutely horrendous. If I could diagnose one problem with this team, it would be Shurmur's playcalling/game management.
The Giants have been involved in a lot of close games?  
Go Terps : 12/2/2019 5:56 pm : link
They've lost 6 games by double digits (4 of those at home, by the way), and have the 4th worst point differential in the NFL.

This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.

How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
RE: The Giants have been involved in a lot of close games?  
Greg from LI : 12/2/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14700333 Go Terps said:
Quote:
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?


Worse than 2-10, apparently.

I eagerly look forward to learning who will be the next Emmanuel Goldstein of the Giants. First it was Reese, now it's Shurmur - when the team is garbage against next year, will it be the new coach? God knows some people will never, ever abandon Dave Gettleman in his hour of need.
RE: The Giants have been involved in a lot of close games?  
Essex : 12/2/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14700333 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They've lost 6 games by double digits (4 of those at home, by the way), and have the 4th worst point differential in the NFL.

This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.

How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?

Most of those double digit losses were one score games in the fourth quarter. Shurmur has not helped his cause is my point.
RE: The Giants have been involved in a lot of close games?  
jcn56 : 12/2/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14700333 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They've lost 6 games by double digits (4 of those at home, by the way), and have the 4th worst point differential in the NFL.

This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.

How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?


A team can sit on a 14 and 20 point lead and let their opponent score in garbage time, at no point being in any threat to actually lose, and some here will actually believe they watched a close game because of the final score.
RE: The Giants have been involved in a lot of close games?  
Default : 12/2/2019 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14700333 Go Terps said:
Quote:

How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?


That's a good question, I don't think there is an answer to that.
If 3-13, 5-11, and 2-14 isn't enough, maybe 0-16 with Shurmur at the helm, and the smartest man in the room drafting another RB at #2 again will do it.
RE: RE: The Giants have been involved in a lot of close games?  
Essex : 12/2/2019 6:01 pm : link
In comment 14700337 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14700333 Go Terps said:


Quote:


How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?



Worse than 2-10, apparently.

I eagerly look forward to learning who will be the next Emmanuel Goldstein of the Giants. First it was Reese, now it's Shurmur - when the team is garbage against next year, will it be the new coach? God knows some people will never, ever abandon Dave Gettleman in his hour of need.

Actually it is not an excuse, but an indictment of the present coaching staff. I do think the team with a better coach would have more wins with this roster. How many, I couldn't venture to guess, but certainly nothing remotely close to make us a legitimate playoff contender (I dunno about the NFC East since if we had 5 wins this season at this point we would still be in it).
I am not going to go to bat for Gettleman  
Essex : 12/2/2019 6:05 pm : link
but he has completely gutted the roster in two years and has been hamstrung by a salary cap. He decided to take a bitter pill with a ton of dead cap in the off season. I don't think given the changes to this roster that you can say that the record of Gettleman is necessarily indicative of his failing. He may well fail, but I think it is too early to tell. He certainly has not built a competitive roster in two years, but sometimes it takes longer. What I know for certain is that Shurmur cannot coach because I see that every week either in person or on my television.
Sure, they'd have a few more wins with a top coaching staff  
Greg from LI : 12/2/2019 6:16 pm : link
They still would be a losing team because the talent stinks.
The best excuse for the Coaching Staff  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 6:20 pm : link
is the Roster itself.

But unfortunately vice versa...
RE: I am not going to go to bat for Gettleman  
bw in dc : 12/2/2019 6:26 pm : link
In comment 14700358 Essex said:
Quote:
but he has completely gutted the roster in two years and has been hamstrung by a salary cap.


Was Gettleman hamstrung when he kept Eli around an extra two years and paid OBJ?

Why do people still say that DG had no cap space to work with?  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 6:59 pm : link
I am posting this yet again!!!

I still see Gettleman apologists say he had little cap room to fix our problems...

Lets take a look at how Gettleman has utilized the cap for the 2019 season.

Current Players: Gettleman has responsibility for all underlined contracts, the bolded ones bad ones IMHO:
Eli Manning QB $23,200,000 (17M could have been freed if he were cut before the roster bonus)
Janoris Jenkins CB $14,750,000
Nate Solder LT $12,000,000
Alec Ogletree ILB $11,750,000
Saquon Barkley RB $7,089,716
Golden Tate WR $6,270,587
Kareem Martin OLB $5,941,666

Kevin Zeitler G $5,000,000
Antoine Bethea FS $3,625,000
Leonard Williams DE $3,517,647 (this is bad more for the picks than the money)
Sterling Shepard WR $3,391,455


A couple of other questionable contracts
Spencer Pulley C $2,675,000 questionable because he traded away Brett Jones to avoid paying his 3M salary, BJ is better than Halapio and Pulley
Mike Remmers RT $2,500,000

Dead cap money: Gettleman made all these decisions, the underlined ones were contracts he also gave out:
Odell Beckham, Jr. WR $16,000,000
Olivier Vernon OLB $8,000,000
Damon Harrison DT $3,200,000
Patrick Omameh G $3,000,000
Eli Apple CB $2,304,968
Alex Tanney QB $1,112,500
Olsen Pierre DE $934,375
Bennie Fowler WR $735,000
Eric Tomlinson TE $720,000
Connor Barwin OLB $365,000
Nathan Stupar OLB $338,824
Sean Chandler S $305,097
+ 42 bottom of the roster players churned that cost another $3,141,443

The team has a total of 40M dead cap space, Gettleman is 100% responsible for 26.6M of that 40M.


Add to that 26.6M these bad contracts who are all serious under performers:
Solder
Olgetree
Martin
Bethae
Remmers
Martin (on IR so not performing at all, but was thoroughly unimpressive)
Also I add Tate who while not under-performing is not part of the long term solution at his age
After these additions the bad money spent is 68.7M.

Add in $17M for Eli to ride the pine, up to 85.7M+

And this is up for debate by some here, but I think paying a RB 7M is crazy.

DG has also restructured contracts pushing about 10M of this year's space into the future - 5M each on Solder and Zeitler (7.5M restructured for each but 2.5M each still hits this year)

So that is 92.7M+ in cap space that was unwisely spent by DG, plus the 10M kicked down the road makes it really 102.7M. Saying unwisely is about as mildly as I can state it.

So, I think we can conclude that DG had plenty of cap space, he just spent it badly. The "crippling" contracts have been of Gettleman's own making!

The Center situation from trading away Jones to insisting on Halapio was just stupid mishandling of the roster.
Then of course there is the LW trade, picks from 2020 so that the team can sit one of his 2018 3rd rounders...
Lets not forget the Stewart signing...

These are the kinds of decisions this GM makes.

Whatever cap space opens up next year will likely be squandered just like the $102.7+M that was squandered on this years team.
This is the guy you want back for round 3?
Any new HC you want to be saddled with this guy?

Of course the DG apologists also say how good his drafts have been. Others on this thread have already gotten into that, so I won't do that here. Suffice to say, I am not a fan of his drafts either. As jcn said, he has had the benefit of picking #2 aqnd #6, and having 3 1st rounders last year. I expected more from that much draft capital. I give him credit for Jones, Lawrence and Slayton (also a pass for Connolly) this year. But the rest is not good.
The DG apologists  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 7:39 pm : link
are becoming more and more quiet...
RE: The DG apologists  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:41 pm : link
In comment 14700468 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
are becoming more and more quiet...

Perhaps...

They still come out of the woodwork every now and then and try to float the idea that he had no cap space to work with...
Solder was the only option  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 7:46 pm : link
Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around

RE: Solder was the only option  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around

You forgot that he has had exceptionally good drafts...
RE: Solder was the only option  
Default : 12/2/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around


It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
RE: RE: Solder was the only option  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 8:19 pm : link
In comment 14700495 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around




It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.

Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...

But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
RE: RE: RE: Solder was the only option  
Essex : 12/2/2019 8:33 pm : link
In comment 14700514 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14700495 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around




It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.


Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...

But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.


You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasnít a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasnít made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.

Fair opinion, punt away another season away and lets see...  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 8:39 pm : link
Quote:
Nobody said he hasnít made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Solder was the only option  
Dinger : 12/2/2019 8:48 pm : link
In comment 14700530 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14700514 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14700495 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around




It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.


Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...

But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.



You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasnít a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasnít made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.


Well stated Essex. I am of a similar opinion. Though all the DG detractors are getting to me. I think they stick with Gettleman for 2 more years and a new coach. If talent doesn't start to shine through next year then Mara's gotta get away from the Accorsi/Giants way and go a completely new direction.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Solder was the only option  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 10:14 pm : link
In comment 14700530 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14700514 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14700495 Default said:


Quote:


In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


Eli can still play under the right circumstances

Barkley is a generational talent

Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around




It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.


Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...

But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.



You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasnít a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasnít made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.

First off, yes I think he should be dinged for the massive failure of self scouting the Giants and not realizing that the Giants had no chance to compete.

Put that aside...

Nowhere have I conflated year 1 and year2. All those contract are current 2019 contracts and taken directly from SpotTrac for the 2019 season.

Furthermore, I didn't even Ding him for Vernon, Harrison or Apple. When I calculated how much dead cap space is by his own making I specifically took those contracts out. And I think that is actually being generous. I'm not sure it wa s a great idea to swap Harrison for Lawrence. I like Lawrence as a player, he is also much younger. But the team has so many holes to fill, was adding another a great idea... Insteead of trading Veron for a RG, we could have resigned Jamon Brown and traded for another young building block RT or C... Even though, some of these moves are highly debatable, I am not even dinging him for those moves.

He does get dinged for signing OBJ and then trading him. He has said he wanted to trade him when he got here and he let Shurmur talk him out of it... Seems weak to me.

So, no... There is nothing in my post above regarding monies spent that is taken "out of context"... It is 100% in the context of 2019. And if anything, I was generous.
Just for starters you included  
Essex : 12/3/2019 8:03 am : link
Soldier and Ogletree, decisions that were made in Year 1, undoubtedly mistakes but mistakes that DG could not get out from because the plan changed. Now, as I said, he gets the blame for that but when he signed them people thought (I was not one of them) that we could be competitive if only we built our OL and got a LB. my point is that I am glad he moved on from that mentality. So, yes, when they made the decision to completely overhaul the roster they were hamstrung because of mistakes they made in year 1 and didnít have cap to work with. With that said we have like three players from our drafts from 2015-2017 still on the roster, think about that for a second and then think about the task DG had. So I am very glad that although he misjudged the roster he decided to check his ego, recognize that mistake and start over instead of doubling down on that mistake. Also, when you have three players on your roster from drafts from 3-5 years and with all the money Reese wasted on bad free agents he didnít have the salary cap to really bail us out.
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