I agree with Matt SGS's posts re Shurmur. The Giants in house have turned on him. Starting from last week you saw Papa/Banks and Cross questioning his decision making. That definitely sends the message that he is being thrown under the bus. Shurmur's PCs now acknowledge he's a dead man walking. "I'm a realist"
Now, for those of you that want to keep Gettleman, why? What's the case for keeping him? He hired Shurmur to start, but beyond that the Giants roster is one of the worst in the league. That's 100% on DG.
This is a HUGE offseason. Jones is still cost controlled. Lots of cap space. A vision can be created here and a identity built. What has DG shown you to convince you he should build it?
I guess the only possible logic would be "Shurmur is so horrible that it's impossible to evaluate the talent DG has brought in."
You'd think this was as difficult as splitting atoms.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
It makes me sick to my stomach but that is the succession plan. And it’s going to doom us for another five years...at least.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
Really? Because the class from last year have all regressed and one guy was cut during the summer.
Please get rid of him before he causes more harm. I miss when Giants football used to be fun.
1. He has had some big hits drafting from early picks to late round picks. Everyone has a couple misses in the draft. For how much a crap shoot the draft is he has really nailed some picks.
2. Some of the guys not playing well may not be just because they are young but the coaching staff has failed to put them in best position to succeed with a combination of poor coaching, poor play calling, scheming etc.
3. He had a very tough assignment if ownership signed off on largely overhauling the team as he did of malcontents and they may think he did a pretty credible job revamping them on the fly without major cap space (with coaching being the main reason they aren't at least a close to .500 team now). I would agree with this, there is enough talent to be at least a 6-8 win team with better coaching all around.
4. The year we hired Shurm and Bettcher he may not have been HIS top pick but ownership's . Also there was VERY little out there to pick from. It was a bad year to need a head coach besides a total surprise or 2. Not guys who were fairly obvious picks that they missed out on.
Bottomline, Gettleman may not be flawless but he's done enough right to warrant to continue with him I believe in their opinion (and my opinion too).
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Seriously, what would the conversation between the two of them be? Ernie was the 'football guy' Mara turned to last time. Does he give DG a new HC and staff and see how that goes? If he torches it again, I will probably completely tune out until they start winning again. I don't want to hear all the media hype about what a great choice Mara made as a new GM and what a great choice he had at HC and then DC and OC. Watching Shurmurs after the game, I got more depressed thinking, "I got my way and Pat is gone. Now they have to start over again and they'll have at least two more years of excuses." Just bummed.
Seriously, what would the conversation between the two of them be? Ernie was the 'football guy' Mara turned to last time. Does he give DG a new HC and staff and see how that goes? If he torches it again, I will probably completely tune out until they start winning again. I don't want to hear all the media hype about what a great choice Mara made as a new GM and what a great choice he had at HC and then DC and OC. Watching Shurmurs after the game, I got more depressed thinking, "I got my way and Pat is gone. Now they have to start over again and they'll have at least two more years of excuses." Just bummed.
Quick turnarounds happen all the time in the NFL. When Harbaugh took over the 49ers, when McVay came in and took over the Rams. Get a good staff in here and the results should be immediate. This has been our bugaboo a whole lot more than talent deficiency ever since the Big Bill/Little Bill days.
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We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Let me say this. This LW trade has a chance to be a complete disaster. And that’s going to significantly drag down that trade grade.
Seriously, what would the conversation between the two of them be? Ernie was the 'football guy' Mara turned to last time.
Accorsi has played the role of "consultant" on two recent GM hires, the Giants and the Bears.
Both men are on pace to be fired at their current pace.
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In comment 14699169 George from PA said:
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We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Let me say this. This LW trade has a chance to be a complete disaster. And that’s going to significantly drag down that trade grade.
The whole D is underperforming under Bettcher. With that said, Leonard hasn't been horrible. He's been stout against the run and pretty good at collapsing the pocket. Granted the sacks are not there but he has gotten some pressures. Better coaching and possibly DE / rush EDGE upgrades (like Chase Young) and the D should look significantly better.
meanwhile, nobody has any realistic recommendations of two hires who..
A. would be an improvement for sure
B. Are available
C. would realistically take the job here
So, in that thread I got stupid replies like "Bill B".
The biggest factor in his favor is that he has already done well with the QB decision by virtue of the fact that Jones looks as good or better than every other top 20 QB available for them to pick the last 2 years with the possible exception of Josh Allen (though he's clearly better than Allen's rookie year). The media darlings (Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Haskins) have all been worse and DG deserves the credit for making a ballsy pick. Obviously he passed on Lamar Jackson like the rest of the league but he was a boom/bust risk in his own category.
The biggest negative against is that the coaching staff is non-competitive and he obviously had a role in selecting them. Rebuilds rarely lead to winning seasons immediately but they should 100% be better than they are, no question about that. If Giant ownership needs to accommodate a proven coach who wants some level of personnel input, like Harbough, they (and DG) need to be willing to do so.
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We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Yea you have the benefit of hindsight.
Solder was a quality LT(rare in NFL) wen he was signed. Our OL was in shambles.
IDC about the jstew or Martin signings. Those guys were stop gaps
He drafted a franchise QB and one of the better backs in football. Not to mention he has brought us other quality players in the draft....reese drafted like shit for 6 years straight.
His trades were actually decent..obj is a headcase and Vernon is avg at best. He made a move to solidify the OL. It probably wouldn't look so bad if solder didn't regress like a bitch overnight. Either way getting rid of obj wasn't a bad thing. People are also shitting on the LW trade. I like therisk, he is only 25 and is already our best DL. He will be a nice piece of the front 7 moving forward. In a 34, you have to win the trenches for LBs to make plays.
Our front us good
Now add c young, resign golden and sign a guy like shobert in free agency, Connelly comes back and the front 7 is looking solid.
The back end just needs more experience, they are babies. That being said I still want to see the same group back but put love at FS over bethea and take Haley off the field. I rather see Jenkins get time in slot with Baker and Beal outside over Haley getting toasted every play.
The defense will try around a lot with young and shobert being added and golden and Connelly coming back.
OL is our biggest issue and I expect DG to heavily invest in it again. Maybe j Conklin in FA and best avail OL in 2nd and 3rd. DG hasn't been perfect but our roster has been completely turned over ....it takes some time especially when Reese was seriously inept at finding talent past round 1
Objectively . . .
In the draft, it looks like he's found the next Franchise QB, a generational RB, a 5th round WR who's been a steal, and some young, building-block players who will hopefully become solid starters -- none of them look like impact players. If he keeps drafting in the top 5, he might find some.
You can't EXPECT 3rd and 5th round guys like Carter and Ximines to become impact players. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Justin Tuck, but that's more the exception than the rule.
Other than Jones and Slayton, all last year's draft picks were (rightfully) on defense. Obviously, there's still a ton of work to be done. Trading up for Baker doesn't look like a good move at the moment, but another coordinator might use him to his strengths rather than to his weakness.
Outside of the draft, he obviously hired the wrong coach. I don't know who the RIGHT coach would have been at the time he hired Shurmer. None of the available options at the time looked much better then or now. Shurmer hiring Betcher looked like a great move at the time, but it doesn't matter who the coaches are when the players suck. We saw that with Spags, and we're seeing it with Betcher.
In trades, he turned guys like Apple and Snacks into draft picks. And with so many holes to fill, he turned his biggest asset, Beckham, into 3 players. Anyone think having Beckham this year would have translated to many more wins?
He swapped a decent, but always-injured pass rusher for a seldom-injured pro-bowl OG. He rightly let Collins walk, and replaced him with a younger, cheaper player. Other guys he let walk (Okwara and Kennard) turned into better players on other teams.
He's applied some band-aids to the OL at the OT spots, which helped a little -- but not enough. He clearly needs to upgrade both OTs and the OC.
Golden turned out to be a good gamble, but he also gambled on some FAs like Stewart and Bethea who were too old to be effective.
It's not clear why he didn't move Jackrabbit at the trade deadline and get something for him. They clearly weren't going to contend this year. Maybe none of the offers we good enough. Maybe he moves him before the draft to recoup a pick.
He gave up draft picks for Williams -- you got me there, I don't get that either. Why not just sign him when he hits the market? Plenty of cap room next season. Perhaps the thinking was they can sign him cheaper if he's already a Giant. Who knows? Right now, it looks like they needlessly gave up a very high 3 and a 5, for a good, but not great player.
I think Williams will be a good foundational building block who, like Lawrence, may both look a LOT better if they can finds some stud edge rushers to complement them. There is good depth at DT.
So yeah, a few hits, and a bunch of misses, and some young guys where the book is still out.
I think the biggest mistake was Shurmer, and that one makes everything else look worse. However, if Jones is the real deal (and they avoid the Brown/Graham/Kanell years), that will be a huge feather in DG's hat, and earn him some leeway.
Regardless of what he (and all GMs) say publicly, this was ALWAYS going to be AT LEAST a 3-year rebuild. And probably longer if they start over with a new coaching staff.
This offseason, he'll have at least 2 high draft picks, and a lot of cap money for FAs. He needs to come away with a stud Pass Rusher, and a quality, starting OT, and hopefully some LB help.
And it looks like he'll need to find a new head coach as well. Though I'm still not 100% convinced they're going to fire Shurmer. On one hand, they always wait a year to long to pull the plug. On the other, there are empty seats, and that tends to trump everything.
Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.
The biggest factor in his favor is that he has already done well with the QB decision by virtue of the fact that Jones looks as good or better than every other top 20 QB available for them to pick the last 2 years with the possible exception of Josh Allen (though he's clearly better than Allen's rookie year). The media darlings (Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Haskins) have all been worse and DG deserves the credit for making a ballsy pick. Obviously he passed on Lamar Jackson like the rest of the league but he was a boom/bust risk in his own category.
The biggest negative against is that the coaching staff is non-competitive and he obviously had a role in selecting them. Rebuilds rarely lead to winning seasons immediately but they should 100% be better than they are, no question about that. If Giant ownership needs to accommodate a proven coach who wants some level of personnel input, like Harbough, they (and DG) need to be willing to do so.
Good post. And regarding the staff assembled 2 seasons ago, that was a really ,really thin year for prime coaching candidates. This year may have more potentially solid to even great guys available.
The overrating of the 2018 draft is incredible. Even Saquon looks like a JAG this season.
Objectively . . .
In the draft, it looks like he's found the next Franchise QB, a generational RB, a 5th round WR who's been a steal, and some young, building-block players who will hopefully become solid starters -- none of them look like impact players. If he keeps drafting in the top 5, he might find some.
You can't EXPECT 3rd and 5th round guys like Carter and Ximines to become impact players. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Justin Tuck, but that's more the exception than the rule.
Other than Jones and Slayton, all last year's draft picks were (rightfully) on defense. Obviously, there's still a ton of work to be done. Trading up for Baker doesn't look like a good move at the moment, but another coordinator might use him to his strengths rather than to his weakness.
Outside of the draft, he obviously hired the wrong coach. I don't know who the RIGHT coach would have been at the time he hired Shurmer. None of the available options at the time looked much better then or now. Shurmer hiring Betcher looked like a great move at the time, but it doesn't matter who the coaches are when the players suck. We saw that with Spags, and we're seeing it with Betcher.
In trades, he turned guys like Apple and Snacks into draft picks. And with so many holes to fill, he turned his biggest asset, Beckham, into 3 players. Anyone think having Beckham this year would have translated to many more wins?
He swapped a decent, but always-injured pass rusher for a seldom-injured pro-bowl OG. He rightly let Collins walk, and replaced him with a younger, cheaper player. Other guys he let walk (Okwara and Kennard) turned into better players on other teams.
He's applied some band-aids to the OL at the OT spots, which helped a little -- but not enough. He clearly needs to upgrade both OTs and the OC.
Golden turned out to be a good gamble, but he also gambled on some FAs like Stewart and Bethea who were too old to be effective.
It's not clear why he didn't move Jackrabbit at the trade deadline and get something for him. They clearly weren't going to contend this year. Maybe none of the offers we good enough. Maybe he moves him before the draft to recoup a pick.
He gave up draft picks for Williams -- you got me there, I don't get that either. Why not just sign him when he hits the market? Plenty of cap room next season. Perhaps the thinking was they can sign him cheaper if he's already a Giant. Who knows? Right now, it looks like they needlessly gave up a very high 3 and a 5, for a good, but not great player.
I think Williams will be a good foundational building block who, like Lawrence, may both look a LOT better if they can finds some stud edge rushers to complement them. There is good depth at DT.
So yeah, a few hits, and a bunch of misses, and some young guys where the book is still out.
I think the biggest mistake was Shurmer, and that one makes everything else look worse. However, if Jones is the real deal (and they avoid the Brown/Graham/Kanell years), that will be a huge feather in DG's hat, and earn him some leeway.
Regardless of what he (and all GMs) say publicly, this was ALWAYS going to be AT LEAST a 3-year rebuild. And probably longer if they start over with a new coaching staff.
This offseason, he'll have at least 2 high draft picks, and a lot of cap money for FAs. He needs to come away with a stud Pass Rusher, and a quality, starting OT, and hopefully some LB help.
And it looks like he'll need to find a new head coach as well. Though I'm still not 100% convinced they're going to fire Shurmer. On one hand, they always wait a year to long to pull the plug. On the other, there are empty seats, and that tends to trump everything.
Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.
When Webster was utilized the best way by Spags we saw how he played. Baker has flashed, he looks pretty good when he clearly knows his assignment and/or is playing in man. Carter looks like a bust as a pass rusher. Ximines it's still early but the results aren't exactly promising as of yet. Golden is legit and needs to be resigned.
I think Bettcher is gone regardless of Shurmur's status.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Yea you have the benefit of hindsight.
Solder was a quality LT(rare in NFL) wen he was signed. Our OL was in shambles.
IDC about the jstew or Martin signings. Those guys were stop gaps
He drafted a franchise QB and one of the better backs in football. Not to mention he has brought us other quality players in the draft....reese drafted like shit for 6 years straight.
His trades were actually decent..obj is a headcase and Vernon is avg at best. He made a move to solidify the OL. It probably wouldn't look so bad if solder didn't regress like a bitch overnight. Either way getting rid of obj wasn't a bad thing. People are also shitting on the LW trade. I like therisk, he is only 25 and is already our best DL. He will be a nice piece of the front 7 moving forward. In a 34, you have to win the trenches for LBs to make plays.
Our front us good
Now add c young, resign golden and sign a guy like shobert in free agency, Connelly comes back and the front 7 is looking solid.
The back end just needs more experience, they are babies. That being said I still want to see the same group back but put love at FS over bethea and take Haley off the field. I rather see Jenkins get time in slot with Baker and Beal outside over Haley getting toasted every play.
The defense will try around a lot with young and shobert being added and golden and Connelly coming back.
OL is our biggest issue and I expect DG to heavily invest in it again. Maybe j Conklin in FA and best avail OL in 2nd and 3rd. DG hasn't been perfect but our roster has been completely turned over ....it takes some time especially when Reese was seriously inept at finding talent past round 1
What you call hindsight, I call results. That I don't have the skills or experience to make the decisions, does not mean I cannot keep score. And the results of most of his decisions have been bad and collectively have led to this product on the field.
Relative arguments that he was better than Reese are not persuasive. I wanted to get rid of Reese years before Mara did. I want to lose DG now and unfortunately will have to wait years.
He'll get another crack at it as he should. He should focus on three criteria. Defensive roots, a winning record and ability to put together a coaching staff.
If he does have enough talent to compete, justifying his termination, then how does it make sense to fire the guy who provided enough talent to compete?
Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.
Ugh. I hate that we root for a franchise that we have to be scared of firing the GM because the heir apparent is clearly even worse. Why not hire a guy with a philosophy from this century's NFL?
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
His FA acquisitions are even worse, if that's imaginable.
The only way you can justify the belief that DG needs to be retained is to think Shurmur is THAT bad. And even then, you'd need to be a little lucky.
Just one more draft - which shouldn't be hard after two spectacular ones - and we'll be in business.
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
That’s RIDICULOUS draft position for a GM. Reese never pickedhigher than 9 and only picked in single digits that one time. DG SHOULD be slaying the draft. His 20-8 draft is looking more and more like a dud - still TBD but edging closer to dud territory.. picking at the top of each round. Unacceptable.
To put it in perspective, if Reese wanted to trade up to 2 the year he picked 9, he would have had to give up one to two additional #1 picks plus other day 2 picks.
Not to mention DG had three first rounders last year. That’s five top 34 picks in two years. He sure as fuck better be killing the draft. Still TBD on that.
So let’s hold off on giving DG any kudos for drafting just yet...
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Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
Hernandez was drafted at the top of the 2nd round and he's part of an AWFUL offensive line. He's underperforming this season. Lawrence was drafted 17th overall - and he's basically a part for part replacement for Snacks who was already under contract.
Barkley was drafted 2nd overall, and he's paid as the 6th highest RB in the league. Worth it?
Connelly played 3 games and was slightly above average on a terrible defense before he got hurt.
Adrien Robinson was a bad 4th round pick. He was drafted with the last non-comp pick of the 4th round, #127. Gettleman drafted Lauletta at the top of the 4th round, and he was gone a season later. He just gave away a 3rd round pick (which will be no later than 65-70) and a 5th round pick (probably around #140, slightly later than Robinson was picked) - for the right to overpay Williams.
Do I need to keep making it obvious how bad Gettleman is at his job?
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In comment 14700093 jcn56 said:
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Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
Hernandez was drafted at the top of the 2nd round and he's part of an AWFUL offensive line. He's underperforming this season. Lawrence was drafted 17th overall - and he's basically a part for part replacement for Snacks who was already under contract.
Barkley was drafted 2nd overall, and he's paid as the 6th highest RB in the league. Worth it?
Connelly played 3 games and was slightly above average on a terrible defense before he got hurt.
Adrien Robinson was a bad 4th round pick. He was drafted with the last non-comp pick of the 4th round, #127. Gettleman drafted Lauletta at the top of the 4th round, and he was gone a season later. He just gave away a 3rd round pick (which will be no later than 65-70) and a 5th round pick (probably around #140, slightly later than Robinson was picked) - for the right to overpay Williams.
Do I need to keep making it obvious how bad Gettleman is at his job?
That's not to say that I think Shurmur would ever be much more, but his coaching record will have the Browns (perennial doormat) and the Giants (in their awful 70's revival phase), two rosters that I don't think Belichick would stand much of a chance with.
Bettcher is a prime example. He's been a good DC before. Give him a shit roster with no talent, and he looks incompetent. Maybe the talent kept him afloat in AZ, but at least you know he's capable when he has the horses.
That's not to say that I think Shurmur would ever be much more, but his coaching record will have the Browns (perennial doormat) and the Giants (in their awful 70's revival phase), two rosters that I don't think Belichick would stand much of a chance with.
Bettcher is a prime example. He's been a good DC before. Give him a shit roster with no talent, and he looks incompetent. Maybe the talent kept him afloat in AZ, but at least you know he's capable when he has the horses.
I strongly disagree. This is not a good roster, but this is a team that has been involved in a lot of close games this year and last and always seems to lose them. So, while Shurmur has not been given a good hand, he has blown any excuse because his playcalling and game management are just absolutely horrendous. If I could diagnose one problem with this team, it would be Shurmur's playcalling/game management.
This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
Worse than 2-10, apparently.
I eagerly look forward to learning who will be the next Emmanuel Goldstein of the Giants. First it was Reese, now it's Shurmur - when the team is garbage against next year, will it be the new coach? God knows some people will never, ever abandon Dave Gettleman in his hour of need.
This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
Most of those double digit losses were one score games in the fourth quarter. Shurmur has not helped his cause is my point.
This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
A team can sit on a 14 and 20 point lead and let their opponent score in garbage time, at no point being in any threat to actually lose, and some here will actually believe they watched a close game because of the final score.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
That's a good question, I don't think there is an answer to that.
If 3-13, 5-11, and 2-14 isn't enough, maybe 0-16 with Shurmur at the helm, and the smartest man in the room drafting another RB at #2 again will do it.
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How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
Worse than 2-10, apparently.
I eagerly look forward to learning who will be the next Emmanuel Goldstein of the Giants. First it was Reese, now it's Shurmur - when the team is garbage against next year, will it be the new coach? God knows some people will never, ever abandon Dave Gettleman in his hour of need.
Actually it is not an excuse, but an indictment of the present coaching staff. I do think the team with a better coach would have more wins with this roster. How many, I couldn't venture to guess, but certainly nothing remotely close to make us a legitimate playoff contender (I dunno about the NFC East since if we had 5 wins this season at this point we would still be in it).
But unfortunately vice versa...
Was Gettleman hamstrung when he kept Eli around an extra two years and paid OBJ?
I still see Gettleman apologists say he had little cap room to fix our problems...
Lets take a look at how Gettleman has utilized the cap for the 2019 season.
Current Players: Gettleman has responsibility for all underlined contracts, the bolded ones bad ones IMHO:
Eli Manning QB $23,200,000 (17M could have been freed if he were cut before the roster bonus)
Janoris Jenkins CB $14,750,000
Nate Solder LT $12,000,000
Alec Ogletree ILB $11,750,000
Saquon Barkley RB $7,089,716
Golden Tate WR $6,270,587
Kareem Martin OLB $5,941,666
Kevin Zeitler G $5,000,000
Antoine Bethea FS $3,625,000
Leonard Williams DE $3,517,647 (this is bad more for the picks than the money)
Sterling Shepard WR $3,391,455
A couple of other questionable contracts
Spencer Pulley C $2,675,000 questionable because he traded away Brett Jones to avoid paying his 3M salary, BJ is better than Halapio and Pulley
Mike Remmers RT $2,500,000
Dead cap money: Gettleman made all these decisions, the underlined ones were contracts he also gave out:
Odell Beckham, Jr. WR $16,000,000
Olivier Vernon OLB $8,000,000
Damon Harrison DT $3,200,000
Patrick Omameh G $3,000,000
Eli Apple CB $2,304,968
Alex Tanney QB $1,112,500
Olsen Pierre DE $934,375
Bennie Fowler WR $735,000
Eric Tomlinson TE $720,000
Connor Barwin OLB $365,000
Nathan Stupar OLB $338,824
Sean Chandler S $305,097
+ 42 bottom of the roster players churned that cost another $3,141,443
The team has a total of 40M dead cap space, Gettleman is 100% responsible for 26.6M of that 40M.
Add to that 26.6M these bad contracts who are all serious under performers:
Solder
Olgetree
Martin
Bethae
Remmers
Martin (on IR so not performing at all, but was thoroughly unimpressive)
Also I add Tate who while not under-performing is not part of the long term solution at his age
After these additions the bad money spent is 68.7M.
Add in $17M for Eli to ride the pine, up to 85.7M+
And this is up for debate by some here, but I think paying a RB 7M is crazy.
DG has also restructured contracts pushing about 10M of this year's space into the future - 5M each on Solder and Zeitler (7.5M restructured for each but 2.5M each still hits this year)
So that is 92.7M+ in cap space that was unwisely spent by DG, plus the 10M kicked down the road makes it really 102.7M. Saying unwisely is about as mildly as I can state it.
So, I think we can conclude that DG had plenty of cap space, he just spent it badly. The "crippling" contracts have been of Gettleman's own making!
The Center situation from trading away Jones to insisting on Halapio was just stupid mishandling of the roster.
Then of course there is the LW trade, picks from 2020 so that the team can sit one of his 2018 3rd rounders...
Lets not forget the Stewart signing...
These are the kinds of decisions this GM makes.
Whatever cap space opens up next year will likely be squandered just like the $102.7+M that was squandered on this years team.
This is the guy you want back for round 3?
Any new HC you want to be saddled with this guy?
Of course the DG apologists also say how good his drafts have been. Others on this thread have already gotten into that, so I won't do that here. Suffice to say, I am not a fan of his drafts either. As jcn said, he has had the benefit of picking #2 aqnd #6, and having 3 1st rounders last year. I expected more from that much draft capital. I give him credit for Jones, Lawrence and Slayton (also a pass for Connolly) this year. But the rest is not good.
Perhaps...
They still come out of the woodwork every now and then and try to float the idea that he had no cap space to work with...
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
You forgot that he has had exceptionally good drafts...
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
Quote:
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasn’t a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasn’t made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
Quote:
In comment 14700495 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasn’t a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasn’t made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
Well stated Essex. I am of a similar opinion. Though all the DG detractors are getting to me. I think they stick with Gettleman for 2 more years and a new coach. If talent doesn't start to shine through next year then Mara's gotta get away from the Accorsi/Giants way and go a completely new direction.
Quote:
In comment 14700495 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasn’t a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasn’t made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
First off, yes I think he should be dinged for the massive failure of self scouting the Giants and not realizing that the Giants had no chance to compete.
Put that aside...
Nowhere have I conflated year 1 and year2. All those contract are current 2019 contracts and taken directly from SpotTrac for the 2019 season.
Furthermore, I didn't even Ding him for Vernon, Harrison or Apple. When I calculated how much dead cap space is by his own making I specifically took those contracts out. And I think that is actually being generous. I'm not sure it wa s a great idea to swap Harrison for Lawrence. I like Lawrence as a player, he is also much younger. But the team has so many holes to fill, was adding another a great idea... Insteead of trading Veron for a RG, we could have resigned Jamon Brown and traded for another young building block RT or C... Even though, some of these moves are highly debatable, I am not even dinging him for those moves.
He does get dinged for signing OBJ and then trading him. He has said he wanted to trade him when he got here and he let Shurmur talk him out of it... Seems weak to me.
So, no... There is nothing in my post above regarding monies spent that is taken "out of context"... It is 100% in the context of 2019. And if anything, I was generous.