I agree with Matt SGS's posts re Shurmur. The Giants in house have turned on him. Starting from last week you saw Papa/Banks and Cross questioning his decision making. That definitely sends the message that he is being thrown under the bus. Shurmur's PCs now acknowledge he's a dead man walking. "I'm a realist"
Now, for those of you that want to keep Gettleman, why? What's the case for keeping him? He hired Shurmur to start, but beyond that the Giants roster is one of the worst in the league. That's 100% on DG.
This is a HUGE offseason. Jones is still cost controlled. Lots of cap space. A vision can be created here and a identity built. What has DG shown you to convince you he should build it?
I guess the only possible logic would be "Shurmur is so horrible that it's impossible to evaluate the talent DG has brought in."
You'd think this was as difficult as splitting atoms.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
It makes me sick to my stomach but that is the succession plan. And it’s going to doom us for another five years...at least.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
Really? Because the class from last year have all regressed and one guy was cut during the summer.
Please get rid of him before he causes more harm. I miss when Giants football used to be fun.
1. He has had some big hits drafting from early picks to late round picks. Everyone has a couple misses in the draft. For how much a crap shoot the draft is he has really nailed some picks.
2. Some of the guys not playing well may not be just because they are young but the coaching staff has failed to put them in best position to succeed with a combination of poor coaching, poor play calling, scheming etc.
3. He had a very tough assignment if ownership signed off on largely overhauling the team as he did of malcontents and they may think he did a pretty credible job revamping them on the fly without major cap space (with coaching being the main reason they aren't at least a close to .500 team now). I would agree with this, there is enough talent to be at least a 6-8 win team with better coaching all around.
4. The year we hired Shurm and Bettcher he may not have been HIS top pick but ownership's . Also there was VERY little out there to pick from. It was a bad year to need a head coach besides a total surprise or 2. Not guys who were fairly obvious picks that they missed out on.
Bottomline, Gettleman may not be flawless but he's done enough right to warrant to continue with him I believe in their opinion (and my opinion too).
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Seriously, what would the conversation between the two of them be? Ernie was the 'football guy' Mara turned to last time. Does he give DG a new HC and staff and see how that goes? If he torches it again, I will probably completely tune out until they start winning again. I don't want to hear all the media hype about what a great choice Mara made as a new GM and what a great choice he had at HC and then DC and OC. Watching Shurmurs after the game, I got more depressed thinking, "I got my way and Pat is gone. Now they have to start over again and they'll have at least two more years of excuses." Just bummed.
Seriously, what would the conversation between the two of them be? Ernie was the 'football guy' Mara turned to last time. Does he give DG a new HC and staff and see how that goes? If he torches it again, I will probably completely tune out until they start winning again. I don't want to hear all the media hype about what a great choice Mara made as a new GM and what a great choice he had at HC and then DC and OC. Watching Shurmurs after the game, I got more depressed thinking, "I got my way and Pat is gone. Now they have to start over again and they'll have at least two more years of excuses." Just bummed.
Quick turnarounds happen all the time in the NFL. When Harbaugh took over the 49ers, when McVay came in and took over the Rams. Get a good staff in here and the results should be immediate. This has been our bugaboo a whole lot more than talent deficiency ever since the Big Bill/Little Bill days.
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We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Let me say this. This LW trade has a chance to be a complete disaster. And that’s going to significantly drag down that trade grade.
Seriously, what would the conversation between the two of them be? Ernie was the 'football guy' Mara turned to last time.
Accorsi has played the role of "consultant" on two recent GM hires, the Giants and the Bears.
Both men are on pace to be fired at their current pace.
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In comment 14699169 George from PA said:
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We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Let me say this. This LW trade has a chance to be a complete disaster. And that’s going to significantly drag down that trade grade.
The whole D is underperforming under Bettcher. With that said, Leonard hasn't been horrible. He's been stout against the run and pretty good at collapsing the pocket. Granted the sacks are not there but he has gotten some pressures. Better coaching and possibly DE / rush EDGE upgrades (like Chase Young) and the D should look significantly better.
meanwhile, nobody has any realistic recommendations of two hires who..
A. would be an improvement for sure
B. Are available
C. would realistically take the job here
So, in that thread I got stupid replies like "Bill B".
The biggest factor in his favor is that he has already done well with the QB decision by virtue of the fact that Jones looks as good or better than every other top 20 QB available for them to pick the last 2 years with the possible exception of Josh Allen (though he's clearly better than Allen's rookie year). The media darlings (Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Haskins) have all been worse and DG deserves the credit for making a ballsy pick. Obviously he passed on Lamar Jackson like the rest of the league but he was a boom/bust risk in his own category.
The biggest negative against is that the coaching staff is non-competitive and he obviously had a role in selecting them. Rebuilds rarely lead to winning seasons immediately but they should 100% be better than they are, no question about that. If Giant ownership needs to accommodate a proven coach who wants some level of personnel input, like Harbough, they (and DG) need to be willing to do so.
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We can debate outcome....which i blame more on Shurmur and the coaches.
I still contend that the past 2 drafts were the best draft in a decade, not saying much....but its something.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Yea you have the benefit of hindsight.
Solder was a quality LT(rare in NFL) wen he was signed. Our OL was in shambles.
IDC about the jstew or Martin signings. Those guys were stop gaps
He drafted a franchise QB and one of the better backs in football. Not to mention he has brought us other quality players in the draft....reese drafted like shit for 6 years straight.
His trades were actually decent..obj is a headcase and Vernon is avg at best. He made a move to solidify the OL. It probably wouldn't look so bad if solder didn't regress like a bitch overnight. Either way getting rid of obj wasn't a bad thing. People are also shitting on the LW trade. I like therisk, he is only 25 and is already our best DL. He will be a nice piece of the front 7 moving forward. In a 34, you have to win the trenches for LBs to make plays.
Our front us good
Now add c young, resign golden and sign a guy like shobert in free agency, Connelly comes back and the front 7 is looking solid.
The back end just needs more experience, they are babies. That being said I still want to see the same group back but put love at FS over bethea and take Haley off the field. I rather see Jenkins get time in slot with Baker and Beal outside over Haley getting toasted every play.
The defense will try around a lot with young and shobert being added and golden and Connelly coming back.
OL is our biggest issue and I expect DG to heavily invest in it again. Maybe j Conklin in FA and best avail OL in 2nd and 3rd. DG hasn't been perfect but our roster has been completely turned over ....it takes some time especially when Reese was seriously inept at finding talent past round 1
Objectively . . .
In the draft, it looks like he's found the next Franchise QB, a generational RB, a 5th round WR who's been a steal, and some young, building-block players who will hopefully become solid starters -- none of them look like impact players. If he keeps drafting in the top 5, he might find some.
You can't EXPECT 3rd and 5th round guys like Carter and Ximines to become impact players. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Justin Tuck, but that's more the exception than the rule.
Other than Jones and Slayton, all last year's draft picks were (rightfully) on defense. Obviously, there's still a ton of work to be done. Trading up for Baker doesn't look like a good move at the moment, but another coordinator might use him to his strengths rather than to his weakness.
Outside of the draft, he obviously hired the wrong coach. I don't know who the RIGHT coach would have been at the time he hired Shurmer. None of the available options at the time looked much better then or now. Shurmer hiring Betcher looked like a great move at the time, but it doesn't matter who the coaches are when the players suck. We saw that with Spags, and we're seeing it with Betcher.
In trades, he turned guys like Apple and Snacks into draft picks. And with so many holes to fill, he turned his biggest asset, Beckham, into 3 players. Anyone think having Beckham this year would have translated to many more wins?
He swapped a decent, but always-injured pass rusher for a seldom-injured pro-bowl OG. He rightly let Collins walk, and replaced him with a younger, cheaper player. Other guys he let walk (Okwara and Kennard) turned into better players on other teams.
He's applied some band-aids to the OL at the OT spots, which helped a little -- but not enough. He clearly needs to upgrade both OTs and the OC.
Golden turned out to be a good gamble, but he also gambled on some FAs like Stewart and Bethea who were too old to be effective.
It's not clear why he didn't move Jackrabbit at the trade deadline and get something for him. They clearly weren't going to contend this year. Maybe none of the offers we good enough. Maybe he moves him before the draft to recoup a pick.
He gave up draft picks for Williams -- you got me there, I don't get that either. Why not just sign him when he hits the market? Plenty of cap room next season. Perhaps the thinking was they can sign him cheaper if he's already a Giant. Who knows? Right now, it looks like they needlessly gave up a very high 3 and a 5, for a good, but not great player.
I think Williams will be a good foundational building block who, like Lawrence, may both look a LOT better if they can finds some stud edge rushers to complement them. There is good depth at DT.
So yeah, a few hits, and a bunch of misses, and some young guys where the book is still out.
I think the biggest mistake was Shurmer, and that one makes everything else look worse. However, if Jones is the real deal (and they avoid the Brown/Graham/Kanell years), that will be a huge feather in DG's hat, and earn him some leeway.
Regardless of what he (and all GMs) say publicly, this was ALWAYS going to be AT LEAST a 3-year rebuild. And probably longer if they start over with a new coaching staff.
This offseason, he'll have at least 2 high draft picks, and a lot of cap money for FAs. He needs to come away with a stud Pass Rusher, and a quality, starting OT, and hopefully some LB help.
And it looks like he'll need to find a new head coach as well. Though I'm still not 100% convinced they're going to fire Shurmer. On one hand, they always wait a year to long to pull the plug. On the other, there are empty seats, and that tends to trump everything.
Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.
The biggest factor in his favor is that he has already done well with the QB decision by virtue of the fact that Jones looks as good or better than every other top 20 QB available for them to pick the last 2 years with the possible exception of Josh Allen (though he's clearly better than Allen's rookie year). The media darlings (Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, and Haskins) have all been worse and DG deserves the credit for making a ballsy pick. Obviously he passed on Lamar Jackson like the rest of the league but he was a boom/bust risk in his own category.
The biggest negative against is that the coaching staff is non-competitive and he obviously had a role in selecting them. Rebuilds rarely lead to winning seasons immediately but they should 100% be better than they are, no question about that. If Giant ownership needs to accommodate a proven coach who wants some level of personnel input, like Harbough, they (and DG) need to be willing to do so.
Good post. And regarding the staff assembled 2 seasons ago, that was a really ,really thin year for prime coaching candidates. This year may have more potentially solid to even great guys available.
The overrating of the 2018 draft is incredible. Even Saquon looks like a JAG this season.
Objectively . . .
In the draft, it looks like he's found the next Franchise QB, a generational RB, a 5th round WR who's been a steal, and some young, building-block players who will hopefully become solid starters -- none of them look like impact players. If he keeps drafting in the top 5, he might find some.
You can't EXPECT 3rd and 5th round guys like Carter and Ximines to become impact players. Sometimes you get lucky and find a Justin Tuck, but that's more the exception than the rule.
Other than Jones and Slayton, all last year's draft picks were (rightfully) on defense. Obviously, there's still a ton of work to be done. Trading up for Baker doesn't look like a good move at the moment, but another coordinator might use him to his strengths rather than to his weakness.
Outside of the draft, he obviously hired the wrong coach. I don't know who the RIGHT coach would have been at the time he hired Shurmer. None of the available options at the time looked much better then or now. Shurmer hiring Betcher looked like a great move at the time, but it doesn't matter who the coaches are when the players suck. We saw that with Spags, and we're seeing it with Betcher.
In trades, he turned guys like Apple and Snacks into draft picks. And with so many holes to fill, he turned his biggest asset, Beckham, into 3 players. Anyone think having Beckham this year would have translated to many more wins?
He swapped a decent, but always-injured pass rusher for a seldom-injured pro-bowl OG. He rightly let Collins walk, and replaced him with a younger, cheaper player. Other guys he let walk (Okwara and Kennard) turned into better players on other teams.
He's applied some band-aids to the OL at the OT spots, which helped a little -- but not enough. He clearly needs to upgrade both OTs and the OC.
Golden turned out to be a good gamble, but he also gambled on some FAs like Stewart and Bethea who were too old to be effective.
It's not clear why he didn't move Jackrabbit at the trade deadline and get something for him. They clearly weren't going to contend this year. Maybe none of the offers we good enough. Maybe he moves him before the draft to recoup a pick.
He gave up draft picks for Williams -- you got me there, I don't get that either. Why not just sign him when he hits the market? Plenty of cap room next season. Perhaps the thinking was they can sign him cheaper if he's already a Giant. Who knows? Right now, it looks like they needlessly gave up a very high 3 and a 5, for a good, but not great player.
I think Williams will be a good foundational building block who, like Lawrence, may both look a LOT better if they can finds some stud edge rushers to complement them. There is good depth at DT.
So yeah, a few hits, and a bunch of misses, and some young guys where the book is still out.
I think the biggest mistake was Shurmer, and that one makes everything else look worse. However, if Jones is the real deal (and they avoid the Brown/Graham/Kanell years), that will be a huge feather in DG's hat, and earn him some leeway.
Regardless of what he (and all GMs) say publicly, this was ALWAYS going to be AT LEAST a 3-year rebuild. And probably longer if they start over with a new coaching staff.
This offseason, he'll have at least 2 high draft picks, and a lot of cap money for FAs. He needs to come away with a stud Pass Rusher, and a quality, starting OT, and hopefully some LB help.
And it looks like he'll need to find a new head coach as well. Though I'm still not 100% convinced they're going to fire Shurmer. On one hand, they always wait a year to long to pull the plug. On the other, there are empty seats, and that tends to trump everything.
Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.
When Webster was utilized the best way by Spags we saw how he played. Baker has flashed, he looks pretty good when he clearly knows his assignment and/or is playing in man. Carter looks like a bust as a pass rusher. Ximines it's still early but the results aren't exactly promising as of yet. Golden is legit and needs to be resigned.
I think Bettcher is gone regardless of Shurmur's status.
he is a mixed bag as a talent evaluator
F is Free Agency
B- in draft
C- in trades
Yea you have the benefit of hindsight.
Solder was a quality LT(rare in NFL) wen he was signed. Our OL was in shambles.
IDC about the jstew or Martin signings. Those guys were stop gaps
He drafted a franchise QB and one of the better backs in football. Not to mention he has brought us other quality players in the draft....reese drafted like shit for 6 years straight.
His trades were actually decent..obj is a headcase and Vernon is avg at best. He made a move to solidify the OL. It probably wouldn't look so bad if solder didn't regress like a bitch overnight. Either way getting rid of obj wasn't a bad thing. People are also shitting on the LW trade. I like therisk, he is only 25 and is already our best DL. He will be a nice piece of the front 7 moving forward. In a 34, you have to win the trenches for LBs to make plays.
Our front us good
Now add c young, resign golden and sign a guy like shobert in free agency, Connelly comes back and the front 7 is looking solid.
The back end just needs more experience, they are babies. That being said I still want to see the same group back but put love at FS over bethea and take Haley off the field. I rather see Jenkins get time in slot with Baker and Beal outside over Haley getting toasted every play.
The defense will try around a lot with young and shobert being added and golden and Connelly coming back.
OL is our biggest issue and I expect DG to heavily invest in it again. Maybe j Conklin in FA and best avail OL in 2nd and 3rd. DG hasn't been perfect but our roster has been completely turned over ....it takes some time especially when Reese was seriously inept at finding talent past round 1
What you call hindsight, I call results. That I don't have the skills or experience to make the decisions, does not mean I cannot keep score. And the results of most of his decisions have been bad and collectively have led to this product on the field.
Relative arguments that he was better than Reese are not persuasive. I wanted to get rid of Reese years before Mara did. I want to lose DG now and unfortunately will have to wait years.
He'll get another crack at it as he should. He should focus on three criteria. Defensive roots, a winning record and ability to put together a coaching staff.
If he does have enough talent to compete, justifying his termination, then how does it make sense to fire the guy who provided enough talent to compete?
Right or wrong, I think DG is here 5 years minimum. And if Abrams IS next, be careful what you wish for.
Ugh. I hate that we root for a franchise that we have to be scared of firing the GM because the heir apparent is clearly even worse. Why not hire a guy with a philosophy from this century's NFL?
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
His FA acquisitions are even worse, if that's imaginable.
The only way you can justify the belief that DG needs to be retained is to think Shurmur is THAT bad. And even then, you'd need to be a little lucky.
Just one more draft - which shouldn't be hard after two spectacular ones - and we'll be in business.
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
That’s RIDICULOUS draft position for a GM. Reese never pickedhigher than 9 and only picked in single digits that one time. DG SHOULD be slaying the draft. His 20-8 draft is looking more and more like a dud - still TBD but edging closer to dud territory.. picking at the top of each round. Unacceptable.
To put it in perspective, if Reese wanted to trade up to 2 the year he picked 9, he would have had to give up one to two additional #1 picks plus other day 2 picks.
Not to mention DG had three first rounders last year. That’s five top 34 picks in two years. He sure as fuck better be killing the draft. Still TBD on that.
So let’s hold off on giving DG any kudos for drafting just yet...
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Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
Hernandez was drafted at the top of the 2nd round and he's part of an AWFUL offensive line. He's underperforming this season. Lawrence was drafted 17th overall - and he's basically a part for part replacement for Snacks who was already under contract.
Barkley was drafted 2nd overall, and he's paid as the 6th highest RB in the league. Worth it?
Connelly played 3 games and was slightly above average on a terrible defense before he got hurt.
Adrien Robinson was a bad 4th round pick. He was drafted with the last non-comp pick of the 4th round, #127. Gettleman drafted Lauletta at the top of the 4th round, and he was gone a season later. He just gave away a 3rd round pick (which will be no later than 65-70) and a 5th round pick (probably around #140, slightly later than Robinson was picked) - for the right to overpay Williams.
Do I need to keep making it obvious how bad Gettleman is at his job?
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In comment 14700093 jcn56 said:
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Their opinion is predicated solely on their belief that Shurmur is so bad he could be trotting out an All Pro team and they'd go 4-12.
His draftees have contributed a big fat zero. Aside from Jones and Slayton, not a one has done anything of note on the field to suggest they were worthy of a draft pick.
Barkley? Lawrence? Connelly pre-injury? I mean, be a little bit fair. Maybe Hernandez, Hill, and Carter are JAGs but not worthy of a draft pick? Adrian Robinson wasn't worth a draft pick.
Hernandez was drafted at the top of the 2nd round and he's part of an AWFUL offensive line. He's underperforming this season. Lawrence was drafted 17th overall - and he's basically a part for part replacement for Snacks who was already under contract.
Barkley was drafted 2nd overall, and he's paid as the 6th highest RB in the league. Worth it?
Connelly played 3 games and was slightly above average on a terrible defense before he got hurt.
Adrien Robinson was a bad 4th round pick. He was drafted with the last non-comp pick of the 4th round, #127. Gettleman drafted Lauletta at the top of the 4th round, and he was gone a season later. He just gave away a 3rd round pick (which will be no later than 65-70) and a 5th round pick (probably around #140, slightly later than Robinson was picked) - for the right to overpay Williams.
Do I need to keep making it obvious how bad Gettleman is at his job?
That's not to say that I think Shurmur would ever be much more, but his coaching record will have the Browns (perennial doormat) and the Giants (in their awful 70's revival phase), two rosters that I don't think Belichick would stand much of a chance with.
Bettcher is a prime example. He's been a good DC before. Give him a shit roster with no talent, and he looks incompetent. Maybe the talent kept him afloat in AZ, but at least you know he's capable when he has the horses.