I agree with Matt SGS's posts re Shurmur. The Giants in house have turned on him. Starting from last week you saw Papa/Banks and Cross questioning his decision making. That definitely sends the message that he is being thrown under the bus. Shurmur's PCs now acknowledge he's a dead man walking. "I'm a realist"
Now, for those of you that want to keep Gettleman, why? What's the case for keeping him? He hired Shurmur to start, but beyond that the Giants roster is one of the worst in the league. That's 100% on DG.
This is a HUGE offseason. Jones is still cost controlled. Lots of cap space. A vision can be created here and a identity built. What has DG shown you to convince you he should build it?
That's not to say that I think Shurmur would ever be much more, but his coaching record will have the Browns (perennial doormat) and the Giants (in their awful 70's revival phase), two rosters that I don't think Belichick would stand much of a chance with.
Bettcher is a prime example. He's been a good DC before. Give him a shit roster with no talent, and he looks incompetent. Maybe the talent kept him afloat in AZ, but at least you know he's capable when he has the horses.
I strongly disagree. This is not a good roster, but this is a team that has been involved in a lot of close games this year and last and always seems to lose them. So, while Shurmur has not been given a good hand, he has blown any excuse because his playcalling and game management are just absolutely horrendous. If I could diagnose one problem with this team, it would be Shurmur's playcalling/game management.
This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
Worse than 2-10, apparently.
I eagerly look forward to learning who will be the next Emmanuel Goldstein of the Giants. First it was Reese, now it's Shurmur - when the team is garbage against next year, will it be the new coach? God knows some people will never, ever abandon Dave Gettleman in his hour of need.
This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
Most of those double digit losses were one score games in the fourth quarter. Shurmur has not helped his cause is my point.
This is the NFL. It's a league designed by the owners to foster close games that maximize fourth quarter TV viewership. Not all the losses are going to be by 30 points.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
A team can sit on a 14 and 20 point lead and let their opponent score in garbage time, at no point being in any threat to actually lose, and some here will actually believe they watched a close game because of the final score.
How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
That's a good question, I don't think there is an answer to that.
If 3-13, 5-11, and 2-14 isn't enough, maybe 0-16 with Shurmur at the helm, and the smartest man in the room drafting another RB at #2 again will do it.
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How bad does a team have to be for the excuses and rationalizations stop?
Worse than 2-10, apparently.
I eagerly look forward to learning who will be the next Emmanuel Goldstein of the Giants. First it was Reese, now it's Shurmur - when the team is garbage against next year, will it be the new coach? God knows some people will never, ever abandon Dave Gettleman in his hour of need.
Actually it is not an excuse, but an indictment of the present coaching staff. I do think the team with a better coach would have more wins with this roster. How many, I couldn't venture to guess, but certainly nothing remotely close to make us a legitimate playoff contender (I dunno about the NFC East since if we had 5 wins this season at this point we would still be in it).
But unfortunately vice versa...
Was Gettleman hamstrung when he kept Eli around an extra two years and paid OBJ?
I still see Gettleman apologists say he had little cap room to fix our problems...
Lets take a look at how Gettleman has utilized the cap for the 2019 season.
Current Players: Gettleman has responsibility for all underlined contracts, the bolded ones bad ones IMHO:
Eli Manning QB $23,200,000 (17M could have been freed if he were cut before the roster bonus)
Janoris Jenkins CB $14,750,000
Nate Solder LT $12,000,000
Alec Ogletree ILB $11,750,000
Saquon Barkley RB $7,089,716
Golden Tate WR $6,270,587
Kareem Martin OLB $5,941,666
Kevin Zeitler G $5,000,000
Antoine Bethea FS $3,625,000
Leonard Williams DE $3,517,647 (this is bad more for the picks than the money)
Sterling Shepard WR $3,391,455
A couple of other questionable contracts
Spencer Pulley C $2,675,000 questionable because he traded away Brett Jones to avoid paying his 3M salary, BJ is better than Halapio and Pulley
Mike Remmers RT $2,500,000
Dead cap money: Gettleman made all these decisions, the underlined ones were contracts he also gave out:
Odell Beckham, Jr. WR $16,000,000
Olivier Vernon OLB $8,000,000
Damon Harrison DT $3,200,000
Patrick Omameh G $3,000,000
Eli Apple CB $2,304,968
Alex Tanney QB $1,112,500
Olsen Pierre DE $934,375
Bennie Fowler WR $735,000
Eric Tomlinson TE $720,000
Connor Barwin OLB $365,000
Nathan Stupar OLB $338,824
Sean Chandler S $305,097
+ 42 bottom of the roster players churned that cost another $3,141,443
The team has a total of 40M dead cap space, Gettleman is 100% responsible for 26.6M of that 40M.
Add to that 26.6M these bad contracts who are all serious under performers:
Solder
Olgetree
Martin
Bethae
Remmers
Martin (on IR so not performing at all, but was thoroughly unimpressive)
Also I add Tate who while not under-performing is not part of the long term solution at his age
After these additions the bad money spent is 68.7M.
Add in $17M for Eli to ride the pine, up to 85.7M+
And this is up for debate by some here, but I think paying a RB 7M is crazy.
DG has also restructured contracts pushing about 10M of this year's space into the future - 5M each on Solder and Zeitler (7.5M restructured for each but 2.5M each still hits this year)
So that is 92.7M+ in cap space that was unwisely spent by DG, plus the 10M kicked down the road makes it really 102.7M. Saying unwisely is about as mildly as I can state it.
So, I think we can conclude that DG had plenty of cap space, he just spent it badly. The "crippling" contracts have been of Gettleman's own making!
The Center situation from trading away Jones to insisting on Halapio was just stupid mishandling of the roster.
Then of course there is the LW trade, picks from 2020 so that the team can sit one of his 2018 3rd rounders...
Lets not forget the Stewart signing...
These are the kinds of decisions this GM makes.
Whatever cap space opens up next year will likely be squandered just like the $102.7+M that was squandered on this years team.
This is the guy you want back for round 3?
Any new HC you want to be saddled with this guy?
Of course the DG apologists also say how good his drafts have been. Others on this thread have already gotten into that, so I won't do that here. Suffice to say, I am not a fan of his drafts either. As jcn said, he has had the benefit of picking #2 aqnd #6, and having 3 1st rounders last year. I expected more from that much draft capital. I give him credit for Jones, Lawrence and Slayton (also a pass for Connolly) this year. But the rest is not good.
Perhaps...
They still come out of the woodwork every now and then and try to float the idea that he had no cap space to work with...
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
You forgot that he has had exceptionally good drafts...
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
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Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
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In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
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Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasn’t a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasn’t made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
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In comment 14700495 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasn’t a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasn’t made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
Well stated Essex. I am of a similar opinion. Though all the DG detractors are getting to me. I think they stick with Gettleman for 2 more years and a new coach. If talent doesn't start to shine through next year then Mara's gotta get away from the Accorsi/Giants way and go a completely new direction.
Quote:
In comment 14700495 Default said:
Quote:
In comment 14700476 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Eli can still play under the right circumstances
Barkley is a generational talent
Leonard Williams is a guy you can build around
It's crazy how all three takes some how keep getting worse.
Actually its all 4 takes Googs parodies, plus the one I added...
But yes, as time goes by the worse those takes seem.
You want to say DG is a bad GM fine, but to argue he had cap room by the examples you give is absolutely ludicrous by conflating year 1 and year 2 spending. His mission changed from year 1 to year 2. You can criticize him for not recognizing right away that this wasn’t a roster you could win with and investing resources in that roster, but he tried to salvage that roster and when it was apparent that was a bad move he did the right thing and made a course correction. Thus, as I said he made the decision this off season to swallow the salary cap pill. I would rather him admit a mistake after year 1 than continue down the wrong path. The Eli move was in March and the draft was in April and we had no idea how quickly Jones would develop. Your examples without context are worthless. Nobody said he hasn’t made mistakes, the question is should we abandon him. I think there is a case to be made that he has tried to navigate rough waters and has obviously made errors, but that he has done enough to see hold off evaluation of him another season.
First off, yes I think he should be dinged for the massive failure of self scouting the Giants and not realizing that the Giants had no chance to compete.
Put that aside...
Nowhere have I conflated year 1 and year2. All those contract are current 2019 contracts and taken directly from SpotTrac for the 2019 season.
Furthermore, I didn't even Ding him for Vernon, Harrison or Apple. When I calculated how much dead cap space is by his own making I specifically took those contracts out. And I think that is actually being generous. I'm not sure it wa s a great idea to swap Harrison for Lawrence. I like Lawrence as a player, he is also much younger. But the team has so many holes to fill, was adding another a great idea... Insteead of trading Veron for a RG, we could have resigned Jamon Brown and traded for another young building block RT or C... Even though, some of these moves are highly debatable, I am not even dinging him for those moves.
He does get dinged for signing OBJ and then trading him. He has said he wanted to trade him when he got here and he let Shurmur talk him out of it... Seems weak to me.
So, no... There is nothing in my post above regarding monies spent that is taken "out of context"... It is 100% in the context of 2019. And if anything, I was generous.