Obviously we’ll have four months to discuss it but I wonder how people feel right now. I really like Jones, I think he looks like a good player. He’s more accurate than Eli ever was, seems to throw a catchable ball. He’s mobile, he seems like a great kid, smart, hard worker, etc.
I worry about his arm strength, how long he holds the ball, the lack of deep shots, the turnovers (although he’s only a rookie).
My gut says he’s a good young player doing what he can in a pretty bad situation. Not a lot of talent on the offense and the coaches are overmatched. I would stick with Jones. I also know I can’t scout or project how these guys will do at all.
I assume Mara will insist any new hires agree to move forward with Jones. This almost certainly happened with Eli two years ago, I think it’s a much smaller ask now; work with the young kid who’s played pretty well so far.
All that said, you don’t get #1 overall very often. The Giants have never had it. They have to at least look at Burrow.
Is he an all-world prospect? Should a new regime be allowed to take him if they want him?
He is older than Jones for what that’s worth. And LSU has a talent advantage unlike anything Jones has ever experienced. But still curious what people think.
Football is a cut throat ruthless business. If Jones is deemed expendable, so be it.
However, what really has to happen is that Mara can't put that qualification on anyone he interviews for GM. If you are hiring a GM you have to let him build the team the way he sees fit. If Mara has made the decision that Jones stays regardless of who the GM is, then he is becoming the de facto GM, which is a very serious problem.
For the love of god, no more "preserving continuity" moves for this franchise.
I could go either way with Jones. He's made a lot of great throws but doesn't do it consistently enough during games and it shows in the lack of points. It could very well be a coaching problem, however, since Shurmur's absolute peak as an OC was the no. 10 offense with a talented Vikings squad. he's sure as hell not some offensive guru.
It would be an interesting offseason for sure, but I doubt they are going to remove DG.
He might be the guy because thats the reality of getting a new coach, but this is hardly a team that can afford to quarterback prospects when the rest of the roster is in shambles.
He’s the kind of player you build a defense around. Jones has shown enough to move forward with him as the franchise. It’s really a no brainer.
He’s the kind of player you build a defense around. Jones has shown enough to move forward with him as the franchise. It’s really a no brainer.
Although I agree with everything you say here, but people were saying the same thing about Clowney and Mario Williams before him.
Also, only seriously considering head coach or gm candidates who profess belief in Jones is the same thing as forcing him on a new regime. In both cases, its ownership, in effect, making the key roster determinations. This is what happened with Eli two years ago, and it has set the franchise back immeasurably.
But this is likely a moot question. Dumping DG after this season would require a level of self-awareness and reality-based decision making that the owners have shown no indication that they possess.
Burrow looks like a great prospect. But he's an unknown. Jones has proven he can play in the NFL, and at a high level. He will be much better when his supporting cast improves. He has nothing right now.
I find it hilarious when people think he has to have a sack or highlight plays to have an impact. Did you happen to notice how many blockers Michigan sent his way? How quickly Patterson got rid of the ball? I also noticed quite a few pressures when he was one on one, one especially where he just blew by Runyan.
Use the high draft picks to fill glaring needs on the OL and LB; and trading down should also be in consideration.
And while we are at it, let’s do it again next year as well.
If we don't have the 1st pick and Young is gone, I'd look to trade the pick to a team desperate for a QB. Look at what the Colts got with the trade with the Jets - 3 starters with those picks, one an all-pro, another DROY.
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that was forced to pass all day long?
I find it hilarious when people think he has to have a sack or highlight plays to have an impact. Did you happen to notice how many blockers Michigan sent his way? How quickly Patterson got rid of the ball? I also noticed quite a few pressures when he was one on one, one especially where he just blew by Runyan.
I didn't watch the whole game but a good bit and ask the question for those that think he is the "goods". I don't watch Ohio State so I haven't seen all these games that he dominated. I watched this one because its finally good competition for Ohio St and Chase seemed very quiet.
I would love if Young is a dominant NFL player and he was our pick. But right now I think our 1st round could have much more value grabbing a bunch of red-chippers.
And while we are at it, let’s do it again next year too. You can never have enough qbs. We should have at least five on the roster. With the 5 qbs we have accumulated, we can Then teach them how to be tackles and EDGE rushers in their spare time.
And the real beauty of having 5 qbs is that as soon as one commits a turnover, we bench him and put the next guy in. We definitely don’t want a qb committing any turnover without receiving his punishment (benching).
I’m not sold on Burrow - firmly in the camp: one year starter surrounded by tremendous NFL caliber talent - but more sold him than I was on Jones. So Burrow at #1,2, or 3 may be a tough pill to swallow...
The other interesting question to me is what comp could we get in trading Jones? I’d love to get back more picks to offset the asinine trade we did to acquire LW...
They have to fix the defense and the OL.
And two more before pick #95 or so.
Mostly LBs and safeties 1,2,3, and 4 and center, TE and right O tackle 5,6,7, not by round.
Plus a new system on offense with an empowered proven real nfl level head coach who picks the assistants on both sides.
It would be the perfect spot to trade down a step or two and still get the player you want. teams at 2 or 3 are going to want a QB, and will have to bid for it to make sure no one else jumps up to trade with us.
Even if it's just a bag of donuts, it's still something extra.
the only QB I'd pick over Jones at the moment is Trevor Lawrence. I've been on the TL bandwagon since his first spring practice.
Yes, the Cardinals did it last year but Jones has played way better than Rosen did. Plus Murray was a better fit for the offense that they wanted to run.
I think Jones could run any type of offensive system, so it's a totally different situation.
Just for comparison of rookie #'s Jones vs last year's rookies:
Jones(10 gms) - 61.6% Comp, 2174 Yds, 18 TD, 11 INT, 84.0 Rate
Rosen(13 gms) - 55.2% Comp, 2278 Yds, 11 TD, 16 INT, 66.7 Rate
Darnold(13gms) - 57.1% Comp, 2865 Yds, 17 TD, 15 INT, 77.6 Rate
Josh Allen(11 gms) - 52.8% Comp, 2074 Yds, 10 TD, 12 INT, 67.9 Rate
Lamar Jackson(7 gms) - 58.2% Comp, 1201 Yds, 6 TD, 3 INT, 84.5 Rate
All of those guys, except Rosen, improved their numbers significantly in year 2. We should expect the same from Jones.
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In comment 14699277 Jimmy Googs said:
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that was forced to pass all day long?
I find it hilarious when people think he has to have a sack or highlight plays to have an impact. Did you happen to notice how many blockers Michigan sent his way? How quickly Patterson got rid of the ball? I also noticed quite a few pressures when he was one on one, one especially where he just blew by Runyan.
I didn't watch the whole game but a good bit and ask the question for those that think he is the "goods". I don't watch Ohio State so I haven't seen all these games that he dominated. I watched this one because its finally good competition for Ohio St and Chase seemed very quiet.
I would love if Young is a dominant NFL player and he was our pick. But right now I think our 1st round could have much more value grabbing a bunch of red-chippers.
I hear you, but someone who can get to the QB with regularity would change the fortunes of this defense in a hurry. And someone who's going to take up more than one blocker will help someone else as well.
As for having to prove himself, there is nothing left to prove. He's dominated some really good competition, and I'd wager he's going to do the same in the college football playoffs.
The giants taking a QB this year would almost insure they’re terrible again next year. They need immediate impact from the draft and a qb is going to just struggle again. Jones has done more then enough to show that with better surrounding cast and seasoning he can be a quality NFL starter. I don’t see star potential but I sure think he can a back end of the top 15 QB.
Changing the GM-coach-QB is hitting the reset button. Again.
Changing the GM-coach-QB is hitting the reset button. Again.
The Giants as currently constructed and an SNES cart have a lot in common. Sometimes you have to blow it out and hit reset a few times to get it to work
I'd trade down
This is a pretty confident statement about a player who is on a record pace for turnovers. Has Jones shown flashes of his ability to turn into a good player? Absolutely. Is he anywhere close to a sure thing at this point? Absolutely not.
Having said that - I'm terrible at evaluating who's going to be good in the NFL. I would make for the worst Sy ever.
That being said I am in agreement that DG should NOT make this call. If a new GM feels Burrow is the guy over Young so be it.
He’s got ball security issues and he doesn’t have a rocket arm. He’s also got issues making the right read. He’s a rookie so he’s got room to grow.
This. That being said, I'd have no problem sticking with Jones
They took Jones #6 overall in the entire draft. He's shown plenty of flashes despite an absolute horrible situation around him.
Lastly Burrow is not an all-world Qb prospect at #1.
QB at #1 is very,very unlikely.
Now trading down to #2 getting a 3rd round pick and taking Young at #2? That's a possibility. We saw something similar with Bears moving one spot up to take Tribitsky.
What a formula to get better: let's draft the same positions over and over again.
This team (and a good part of the fanbase) is schizophrenic. Can we stick with one plan, please? We took the top rb, "generational talent" with the number 2 pick in the entire fucking draft. That says this is going to be a running team with more or less a move the chains type qb. That would ordinarily dictate that we go and get o-linemen whose forte is run blocking and defensive players and not worry about pass blocking. We go get a coach who will run the ball and utilizes a short pass, move the chains passing game.
Are we switching philosopies now? If that is the case, you might as well off Barkley because he isn't needed.
If and when someone else takes over the only way to do things right is to look at EVERY aspect of the team as a candidate for change to align with the new regime's plan. If Mara hires someone and says, "Fix this mess, but you have to do it with Jones, Barkley, Lawrence, etc..." then he's not doing anyone any favors.
For example, what if we want to hire Greg Roman? What if he has a great plan, interviews phenomenally, and has a good staff ready to go...he just doesn't think Jones can run his offense. Instead, he wants to draft Jalen Hurts or someone else and run it through that guy. Are we supposed to disqualify him for that?
No more half measures.
There is NO generational Type QB prospect (Elway , Mahomes etc) coming out next year anyway.
Build around him and you can start to win.
Excellent points except the one about the organization. 4 Supes is pretty good and they will get it fixed. They have the right GM now.
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Chase Young is the best player in college football. He’s the kind of player that would return a Khalil Mack type haul if the Giants ever considered moving him. He’s the type of player who doesn’t get to FA and who you only have a shot at if you’re in the Giants current position.
He’s the kind of player you build a defense around. Jones has shown enough to move forward with him as the franchise. It’s really a no brainer.
Although I agree with everything you say here, but people were saying the same thing about Clowney and Mario Williams before him.
There are no guarantees but Young is a much safer bet to be the next elite pass rusher than Burrows being the next John Elway.
If and when someone else takes over the only way to do things right is to look at EVERY aspect of the team as a candidate for change to align with the new regime's plan. If Mara hires someone and says, "Fix this mess, but you have to do it with Jones, Barkley, Lawrence, etc..." then he's not doing anyone any favors.
For example, what if we want to hire Greg Roman? What if he has a great plan, interviews phenomenally, and has a good staff ready to go...he just doesn't think Jones can run his offense. Instead, he wants to draft Jalen Hurts or someone else and run it through that guy. Are we supposed to disqualify him for that?
No more half measures.
If the next HC can’t work with the skill set Jones offers then he’s not a HC worth hiring.
You want to dick ride the Ravens model and that’s fine. But Harbaugh didn’t find a QB to run his system. He built a simpleton Cracker Jack offense around the limited QB he was given (Lamar) that emphasized his strengths (running) and hid his weaknesses (throwing the football).
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In comment 14699230 WillVAB said:
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Chase Young is the best player in college football. He’s the kind of player that would return a Khalil Mack type haul if the Giants ever considered moving him. He’s the type of player who doesn’t get to FA and who you only have a shot at if you’re in the Giants current position.
He’s the kind of player you build a defense around. Jones has shown enough to move forward with him as the franchise. It’s really a no brainer.
Although I agree with everything you say here, but people were saying the same thing about Clowney and Mario Williams before him.
There are no guarantees but Young is a much safer bet to be the next elite pass rusher than Burrows being the next John Elway.
Young is the guy we want. Best player in the draft. We could get the best player 3 years straight if Jones proves to be the real deal.
You see it every game with ER and interior linemen running free and a sub-par WR corps, no TE worthy of the name.
Yeah, let a new GM choose, but put DJ's performance in perspective
If and when someone else takes over the only way to do things right is to look at EVERY aspect of the team as a candidate for change to align with the new regime's plan. If Mara hires someone and says, "Fix this mess, but you have to do it with Jones, Barkley, Lawrence, etc..." then he's not doing anyone any favors.
For example, what if we want to hire Greg Roman? What if he has a great plan, interviews phenomenally, and has a good staff ready to go...he just doesn't think Jones can run his offense. Instead, he wants to draft Jalen Hurts or someone else and run it through that guy. Are we supposed to disqualify him for that?
No more half measures.
This would be something and it would take huge nuts to do.
Mara wouldn't do it - therefore it ain't gonna happen.
It would be somethin if they did it though.
What do you think Jones would fetch in a trade?
This team stupidly thought Nelson wasn't worth the #2 pick and picked Barkley instead. Turns out that was a mistake.
And if Jackson is such a simpleton as a passer compared to Jones, why is he at 7.9 YPA v. Jones's 6.4? Why does he lead the NFL in TD passes and have a 25/5 TD/INT ratio? Why is he the frontrunner to win the MVP? Why are the Ravens the betting favorite to win the Super Bowl?
I know you want to rationalize otherwise, but Daniel Jones is not in Lamar Jackson's universe as a quarterback.
The pom-pom wavers live in an alternate universe, they really do.
I think a lot depends on timing. The Cardinals completely mishandled trading Rosen. If they'd done it quickly I think they would have gotten more than they did.
I don't think it's impossible to get a 2nd rounder for Jones...maybe even a 1st rounder. Remember, there are a lot of teams that look like they need to move on from veterans: Chargers, Steelers, Lions, possibly even New Orleans or New England. I think there'd be a market.
Once you decided to pay him, should have just rolled with Eli.
Or draft Jones and cut Eli (therefore giving Jones an entire summer of starter's reps in camp and preseason). But entering the season with both was the work of complete fools.
Gettleman running this team is like me in the kitchen...I get halfway through the recipe and I realize I don't have any fucking eggs.
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We likely would be no better than 4 wins with Eli - Gettleman/Shurmur could easily be fired and the new regime could draft the next QB.
Or draft Jones and cut Eli (therefore giving Jones an entire summer of starter's reps in camp and preseason). But entering the season with both was the work of complete fools.
Gettleman running this team is like me in the kitchen...I get halfway through the recipe and I realize I don't have any fucking eggs.
Except that there is a long standing tradition of doing this all throughout the NFL.
It's not unusual to draft the future guy and have him sit behind the starter. It's not unprecedented, it's common.
If you could cite an example to the contrary I'd like to see it. Even your favorite Lamar Jackson sat behind Joe Flacco for 9 weeks. Flacco's cap hit last year was 24 million.
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In comment 14699994 Sean said:
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We likely would be no better than 4 wins with Eli - Gettleman/Shurmur could easily be fired and the new regime could draft the next QB.
Or draft Jones and cut Eli (therefore giving Jones an entire summer of starter's reps in camp and preseason). But entering the season with both was the work of complete fools.
Gettleman running this team is like me in the kitchen...I get halfway through the recipe and I realize I don't have any fucking eggs.
Except that there is a long standing tradition of doing this all throughout the NFL.
It's not unusual to draft the future guy and have him sit behind the starter. It's not unprecedented, it's common.
If you could cite an example to the contrary I'd like to see it. Even your favorite Lamar Jackson sat behind Joe Flacco for 9 weeks. Flacco's cap hit last year was 24 million.
Yeah, and that was idiotic of Baltimore. Had they gone with Jackson from the start they probably end the season with a better record, and who knows from there? The same applies to Kansas City...if I were a Chiefs fan I'd be asking why wasn't Mahomes playing from the outset? They wasted a year of Mahomes's rookie contract.
Besides all that, your rationale is other teams in the NFL were stupid, so the Giants should be too?
Why was the last regime not allowed to do the same?
The Ehive are at it again
They have to fix the defense and the OL.
Next BBI will tell us that they need to draft a rb
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How is this even a conversation?
The Ehive are at it again
This has nothing to do with Eli, what are you talking about?
So what to do going forward. If you look at the offense, it is a run first offense with a qb that is supposed to be an accurate short passer and a couple of possession receivers.
I think that was the original vision (the Vikes led the league in rushing Shurmur's last year as OC), but Shurmur appears to have reverted to Shurmur. (maybe Zimmer had a good deal of influence in the rushing Vikings).
So, it would seem that the way forward is to improve the o-line with run blockers and not worry about pass protection.
If that is the case, this is not a quick strike offensive scheme which means there needs to be a stout defense. Since ours is anything but, it would indicate that we should be heavily drafting defensive players at all positions and cannot horse around with projects or rookies who are not making an impact.
Now if you disagree with the philosophy, that's ok,but that means constructing an entirely different team than what we have and also points in the direction of trading Barkley, taking our chances in putting the offense in the hands of Jones, drafting receivers who can get down the field and dispensing with the short pass/high completion percentage philosophy that had taken hold here.
And if Jackson is such a simpleton as a passer compared to Jones, why is he at 7.9 YPA v. Jones's 6.4? Why does he lead the NFL in TD passes and have a 25/5 TD/INT ratio? Why is he the frontrunner to win the MVP? Why are the Ravens the betting favorite to win the Super Bowl?
I know you want to rationalize otherwise, but Daniel Jones is not in Lamar Jackson's universe as a quarterback.
The pom-pom wavers live in an alternate universe, they really do.
Anyone who knows what they’re watching can see the Ravens offense is set up to protect Lamar. Everything is 5-8 yard dump offs to TEs when he’s not running.
Roman did the same shit with Tyrod in Buffalo. Tyrod isn’t the electric runner that Lamar is, but a lot of similar concepts. Very safe throws and emphasize the athleticism.
Jackson's IAY (Average Intended Air Yards) is 8.9...that's 10th in the league. Want to know Daniel Jones's? 7.7. 27th in the league.
You can also check out Jackson's +/- on his Completion Percentage Above Expectation...1.7%. Daniel Jones: -.4%.
This isn't meant to knock Jones. He's a struggling rookie and I'm comparing him to the best player in the league (though Jackson only has 9 more starts under his belt than Jones does). But you seem to be implying that Jones is a better passer than Jackson...and that isn't true anywhere except in the hearts of bewildered Giants fans.
NextGen Stats can help you - ( New Window )
I think Jones has shown enough to continue working with him. But, there are deficiencies in his game so far. If the new regime decides that these deficiencies can't be fixed and we need to move on, then so be it.
QB is by far the most important position. You don’t handcuff a new coach/GM with a QB they don’t like.
That said, I don’t know what’s not to like about Jones. His issues seem correctable and he has shown a lot of the key skills/traits you look for, regardless of scheme. I hope they keep him and add a ton of D talent (Young would be a great start).
It’s a real shame that there isn’t better information on what Jones is capable of with a better supporting cast.
That being said, ideally, the right front office group is brought in has a better plan and should be given full license to pursue that plan. Jones, personality wise seems very skittish (seemed that way in the pre-season fan round table especially watching him live), he’s clearly also very talented but a big part of the decision should be can he be a team leader. Frankly, I don’t think DG cares much about personality traits beyond reverence for authority but that’s a part of this that fans don’t have a real window into and it would be great to see a real change in approach at the top that could give fans confidence that they are doing things to compete in the modern NFL
Jackson's IAY (Average Intended Air Yards) is 8.9...that's 10th in the league. Want to know Daniel Jones's? 7.7. 27th in the league.
You can also check out Jackson's +/- on his Completion Percentage Above Expectation...1.7%. Daniel Jones: -.4%.
This isn't meant to knock Jones. He's a struggling rookie and I'm comparing him to the best player in the league (though Jackson only has 9 more starts under his belt than Jones does). But you seem to be implying that Jones is a better passer than Jackson...and that isn't true anywhere except in the hearts of bewildered Giants fans. NextGen Stats can help you - ( New Window )
Yawn. Watch the games stat dork. It’s lollipop jump balls to TEs all day.
He’s going to get exposed in the playoffs. Again. BB is going to stack the box all game and dare Jackson to beat his defense deep 1v1 on the outside.
2. Lamar Jackson is going to get "exposed" by a team he thumped already this season?
And you have a problem with the way others are analyzing things?
So many posters that you can't take seriously.
So many posters that you can't take seriously.
unreal.. especially after Jones posted a 3 pick stinker..
Yawn. Watch the games stat dork. It’s lollipop jump balls to TEs all day.
He’s going to get exposed in the playoffs. Again. BB is going to stack the box all game and dare Jackson to beat his defense deep 1v1 on the outside.
The Ravens are running a very unique, gimmicky offense. And it's brilliant because the trigger man is the shaping up to be the greatest dual threat QB in league history. No one is confusing LJax with Aaron Rodgers with his throwing style and ability, but you really aren't paying attention if you don't think LJax has vastly improved as a passer. He's got a league leading 81+ QBR. Sorry, but that's not a bunch of "lollipops".
As for BBI constructing a D to neutralize LJax, I'm not so sure because that three headed TE monster the Ravens run puts tremendous pressure on the Pats LBS. And they just aren't good in coverage right now.
Jackson's IAY (Average Intended Air Yards) is 8.9...that's 10th in the league. Want to know Daniel Jones's? 7.7. 27th in the league.
You can also check out Jackson's +/- on his Completion Percentage Above Expectation...1.7%. Daniel Jones: -.4%.
This isn't meant to knock Jones. He's a struggling rookie and I'm comparing him to the best player in the league (though Jackson only has 9 more starts under his belt than Jones does). But you seem to be implying that Jones is a better passer than Jackson...and that isn't true anywhere except in the hearts of bewildered Giants fans. NextGen Stats can help you - ( New Window )
It kinda sounds like a knock on Jones. I'll give you that LJ is seemingly 9 games ahead of Jones - put LJ had the benefit of completing an entire preseason as the clear-cut #1 and having an offense completely designed for him. Jones was the #2 QB in the pre-season and was forced to play (at least in some parts and at least at the beginning) into a Shurmur offense intended to be run by Eli.
Not to knock LJ, but last year he turned the Ravens around and was 6-1 down the stretch. 4 of those wins came against teams that were terrible (Atl, TB, Cincy, Oak)he beat the Chargers, Cleveland and took KC to OT and lost. He threw for over 200 yards once in that 7 game stretch. He threw 3 Ints and fumbled 11 times. Last years Ravens defense was significantly better than the crap the NYG are running out there very week on defense. Aside from W-L, Jones stacks up very well against LJ in his first year.
He was clearly outmatched in the playoff game against the Chargers. He had no shot in that game.
In effect, he makes both sides of the ball better for the Ravens.
I agree that LJ helps the defense by keeping the offense on the field...but let's not forget that it also goes both ways. The Ravens defense has allowed 220 first downs this year to the NYG defense which has allowed 244. That's an extra 24 possessions thus far to work with.
The Ravens defense is also getting very stingy on 3rd down as a defense - in the last 3 games the Ravens defense has allowed a 3rd down conversion rate of 25% versus the Giants defense which allows a 36% conversion rate.
LJ is better than Daniel Jones right now - no doubt...but the Ravens have a much better team than do the Giants. The Giants defense is terrible. Although, I will say, as much as I hate to admit it, the defense has been rather stout against the run recently.
I agree that LJ helps the defense by keeping the offense on the field...but let's not forget that it also goes both ways. The Ravens defense has allowed 220 first downs this year to the NYG defense which has allowed 244. That's an extra 24 possessions thus far to work with.
The Ravens defense is also getting very stingy on 3rd down as a defense - in the last 3 games the Ravens defense has allowed a 3rd down conversion rate of 25% versus the Giants defense which allows a 36% conversion rate.
LJ is better than Daniel Jones right now - no doubt...but the Ravens have a much better team than do the Giants. The Giants defense is terrible. Although, I will say, as much as I hate to admit it, the defense has been rather stout against the run recently.
"LJ is better than Daniel Jones right now"..
and probably forever. It is highly unlikely that Jones will ever be an MVP candidate this late in the season. That's just math.
I agree that LJ helps the defense by keeping the offense on the field...but let's not forget that it also goes both ways. The Ravens defense has allowed 220 first downs this year to the NYG defense which has allowed 244. That's an extra 24 possessions thus far to work with.
The Ravens D is playing very well. They continue to get confidence and improve. But I think they still benefit from the O keeping the ball; and not the other way around with the D making stops. Let's look at this:
The Ravens are possessing the ball at 34.32 mins/per game. The Giants, for example, are at 28.49 mins/per game. That's a big delta and largely a derivative of LJax and their unorthodox offense.
Sure, they have a nice stable of RBs. But LJax is the piece that takes them to the next level. If he's goes down, do you RG3 steps in and does the same thing? Of course not. LJax is essentially a taller, leaner Barry Sanders but with an ability to pass the ball. The guy right now is the ultimate force multiplier.