Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Kevin Abrams question

buddyryansux10 : 12/2/2019 10:20 am
Since its a Monday after a loss ( happening way too often ), let's throw out a quick speculation: let's say Shurmur is gone ( think that's a certainty at this point ), and Gettleman "retires" ( less a certainty but a very distinct possibility in part - but not fully - due to legitimate health issues ), what's the chance they promote Kevin Abrams to GM and, if they do, will they go out to hire a "VP of Player Personnel" type - a la Howie Roseman - GM / Joe Douglas - VP situation.

It's my understanding that Abrams is very good with the salary cap, so I'm thinking he wouldn't be "purged", but in this scenario who would be a good candidate for Player Personnel VP ( for those BBIers in the know )?

Thanks guys and fire away!
....  
BleedBlue : 12/2/2019 10:24 am : link
Abrams could keep the title of GM and they hire a coach who makes personnel decisions or they keep Abrams and just have the coach be a GM/Coach.

I think Abrams stays which opens the door to a candidate who wants to make football decisions. You could argue that McDaniels is a solid candidate if you trust pat assistants
Just saw there was another sort of related thread  
buddyryansux10 : 12/2/2019 10:32 am : link
my apologies, if this gets very redundant I will delete, but I am curious on who would be good candidates for "Assistant" GM or VP of Player Personnel.
If we fire Gettleman or he resigns or retires  
Essex : 12/2/2019 10:41 am : link
none of which I think will happen, but if it does, we should look to start a clean page with people outside the organization. It has been bad around here for a long time, so the People who have been in the building over the last decade or so probably don't have many of the answers that we are looking for.
I'd look at the long time stable organizations like NE, Ravens,  
NYRiese : 12/2/2019 10:58 am : link
Steelers, Seahawks, Eagles as far as pouching player evaluation talent; their method of talent and cost vs performance evaluation might uncover some new non-Giant methodoligies.

I'd avoid the flashy, one hit wonder organizations.
The only people who think Abrams is "very good" with the cap  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 10:59 am : link
post on BBI and/or work in East Rutherford.

He's average at best and can typically avoid being too much of a liability. But when you have very little talent on your roster, your historic franchise QB coming off the books, and have just completed the biggest dead money purge in the league and you're still in the middle of the pack for cap room in a year when there is more cap space across the league than ever before, "very good" is a wildly homer view of how Abrams is doing.

They should be top five in cap room given how little talent is actually on the roster, but too many overpaid guys in the middle of the roster and too much reliance on year-to-year guaranteed money triggers like roster bonuses and workout bonuses effectively act on a drag for their cap each year.

It would be great if the Giants had someone in that role who could actually represent a relative advantage vs. the league, since savvy cap management obviously has a direct correlation to how much you can spend on your roster each year, and that spending strength, if coupled with a strong scouting operation, can provide a clear competitive advantage.

The Giants have neither of those in their favor, and Abrams avoids scorn because he's not the one building the roster, presumably. But he's not exactly doing an exemplary job of funding the roster, either. He's just ok.
This team needs to  
Josh in the City : 12/2/2019 11:13 am : link
stop fucking around by plugging holes that they think could be the problem. They need a professional to run the entire football operation, from GM, to coach, to scouts, to capologists, to player evaluations. There is nobody currently in the organization that I trust to make those decisions. The time has come to burn the whole thing to the ground and let someone new build it back up.
Yeah, I’ve yet to see evidence that Abrams is  
Section331 : 12/2/2019 11:13 am : link
“Very good” with the cap. I’ll give him the benefit of doubt due to the need to purge excess cap spend8ng, but trading a 2 nd day pick for a guy looking at a pay day doesn’t appear to be good cap management.
Here is...  
bw in dc : 12/2/2019 11:35 am : link
Abrams resume:

-- He's been at Jints Central for 20 years.
-- He's shown incredible loyalty.
-- He's been Assistant GM.
-- He's fully indoctrinated in the "Giants Way".

And let's face it, if not for Accorsi's recommending Resume Dave in 2017, Abrams, at the time the acting GM, probably gets the job.

I feel 97% certain Mara rewards Abrams not for skill or ability, but for that loyalty and taking the next step on the "Giants Way" ladder.

So I pray for the other 3% because I think this type of hire could send us deeper into the hole for at least another 5 years.

Because I have no idea - zero - if Abrams is good at his current job or if he has any ability to be good at this much bigger job.
I just don't understand why they would make a finance guy a GM  
BestFeature : 12/2/2019 11:55 am : link
of a pro-football team.
RE: Here is...  
BestFeature : 12/2/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14699600 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Abrams resume:

-- He's been at Jints Central for 20 years.
-- He's shown incredible loyalty.
-- He's been Assistant GM.
-- He's fully indoctrinated in the "Giants Way".

And let's face it, if not for Accorsi's recommending Resume Dave in 2017, Abrams, at the time the acting GM, probably gets the job.

I feel 97% certain Mara rewards Abrams not for skill or ability, but for that loyalty and taking the next step on the "Giants Way" ladder.

So I pray for the other 3% because I think this type of hire could send us deeper into the hole for at least another 5 years.

Because I have no idea - zero - if Abrams is good at his current job or if he has any ability to be good at this much bigger job.


Mara will make the Mafia blush with his valuing of loyalty.
RE: I just don't understand why they would make a finance guy a GM  
Tesla : 12/2/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14699640 BestFeature said:
Quote:
of a pro-football team.


Because he's been a loyal servant, understands the "Giants way" and Mara likes him. Those traits are more important to Mara than hiring someone who can actually put together a winning roster.

Those are the facts and they are not in dispute.
The whole Giants organization needs a Giant Enema  
Rick in Dallas : 12/2/2019 1:15 pm : link
What the hell qualifies Abrams to be the next GM? Because he does a good job managing the cap.
I would break the bank to hire away Will McCall away from the Cowboys to be our next GM.
He is the sole reason for the resurgence of the Cowboys over the past 5 years. Not Jerry or Stephen Jones.
I meant Will McClay  
Rick in Dallas : 12/2/2019 1:21 pm : link
Sorry about that guys.
2 colossal swings and  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 12/2/2019 1:26 pm : link
Misses on the last 2 HC’s after getting rid of TC. Mara’s will want to get this one right!!

RE: I meant Will McClay  
bw in dc : 12/2/2019 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14699790 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
Sorry about that guys.


This is a terrific idea. McClay is the hidden force at Jerry's World.
No chance  
Thankyoueli : 12/2/2019 1:30 pm : link
Mara let Gettleman do the Williams trade if there was even the slightest thought in the back of his head of getting rid of Gettleman.

Doesnt make sense. Gettleman is getting another year, come to terms with that now.
I think it’s entirely possible the new HC is hired  
Ben in Tampa : 12/2/2019 1:31 pm : link
By Mara and is quietly given personnel control while they transition Gettlemen out.

Gettlemen consults/assists the new staff put together the draft and then retires following in May.

New HC is more publicly given personnel control and Abrams is promoted to GM, mostly as the cap guy.
Some of you guys have no idea what you are talking about.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/2/2019 3:41 pm : link
Our cap guy doesn't negotiate the deals. That comes down to the GM. Our cap guy finds ways to structure the money to help benefit the team as best as possible with the deals that are being agreed to. He doesn't trade day 2 picks for FA. Again, that was the GM.
I’d be ok with  
ron mexico : 12/2/2019 3:47 pm : link
Gettleman and chris Mara retiring, promoting Abrahams and hiring a coach with heavy personal say.

I could live with that outcome.
RE: The only people who think Abrams is  
BMac : 12/2/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14699520 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
post on BBI and/or work in East Rutherford.

He's average at best and can typically avoid being too much of a liability. But when you have very little talent on your roster, your historic franchise QB coming off the books, and have just completed the biggest dead money purge in the league and you're still in the middle of the pack for cap room in a year when there is more cap space across the league than ever before, "very good" is a wildly homer view of how Abrams is doing.


The Giants are currently #8 in cap space for 2020, with more coming in the form of the regular annual raise and the shedding of Eli, et al. That's hardly middle-of-the-pack.
RE: Some of you guys have no idea what you are talking about.  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14700037 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Our cap guy doesn't negotiate the deals. That comes down to the GM. Our cap guy finds ways to structure the money to help benefit the team as best as possible with the deals that are being agreed to. He doesn't trade day 2 picks for FA. Again, that was the GM.

Giants.com disagrees:
Quote:
Abrams is the team’s primary negotiator for player contracts, works with the college and pro personnel departments to evaluate players in preparation for the NFL Draft and free agency, and is responsible for managing the Giants’ salary cap, football data analytics, player engagement, related strategic planning for football operations and compliance with the NFL’s Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Link - ( New Window )
The world is full of jobs  
Bill2 : 12/2/2019 4:43 pm : link
in which "negotiate the contract" means work through the boilerplate with the agents lawyer and submit variations the league office wants to see first to those lawyers.


Business terms in non legalese by the line executive and "contract" details by the staff guy.

I don't know which is which in the Giants organization but I don't know too many places where the deal maker is confused with the technocrat

RE: RE: The only people who think Abrams is  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14700047 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 14699520 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


post on BBI and/or work in East Rutherford.

He's average at best and can typically avoid being too much of a liability. But when you have very little talent on your roster, your historic franchise QB coming off the books, and have just completed the biggest dead money purge in the league and you're still in the middle of the pack for cap room in a year when there is more cap space across the league than ever before, "very good" is a wildly homer view of how Abrams is doing.




The Giants are currently #8 in cap space for 2020, with more coming in the form of the regular annual raise and the shedding of Eli, et al. That's hardly middle-of-the-pack.

Where are you getting that they're #8? OTC has them at #12 in current cap room for 2020, and 13th in effective cap space (since they only have 36 players under contract for 2020).

The Giants currently have $63.8M in 2020 space, with the league median at $50.5M and the league average at $49.7M. They're not squarely on the middle, but they're a lot closer to that $50M midpoint than they are to the top (average of $95.9M cap room for the top 5 teams in terms of space).

I guess we can debate the semantics of "middle of the pack," but the reality is, with very little talent on the roster and a franchise QB contract coming off the books, the Giants are not as close to the top of the league in cap space as they probably should be, IMO.

Link - ( New Window )
RE: The world is full of jobs  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14700140 Bill2 said:
Quote:
in which "negotiate the contract" means work through the boilerplate with the agents lawyer and submit variations the league office wants to see first to those lawyers.


Business terms in non legalese by the line executive and "contract" details by the staff guy.

I don't know which is which in the Giants organization but I don't know too many places where the deal maker is confused with the technocrat

That's a fair point, but I think either way it's not a point in favor of Abrams as Gettleman's successor. Either he's already a mediocre negotiator, or he'll be a neophyte in that role.
Yeah, being comfortably under the cap would be one hell  
jcn56 : 12/2/2019 4:50 pm : link
of a compliment if the team actually had some talent on the roster.

Given a roster riddled with holes and a QB on his rookie contract, not sure that's anything to go home bragging about. Especially with how FA has gone lately - they're going to feel a strong urge to overpay mediocre players, like the one they traded two picks for.
GD  
Bill2 : 12/2/2019 5:14 pm : link
Or he knows what's wrong but is ineffective at coaching people to see the flaws in their approach. Or he is ignored.

Or he lets the GM job spent Mara's money any old way.

Or or or.

Its not a job where one can show he can be a front line decision maker

Could the secretary handle something much more competently than the boss? Sure. I hope so. Did she hear the same things he did? Often yes and many times before he did.

Can she run the company? We have no idea.

and I think that they should have an idea ahead of time this next time around. They also should look at a track record of successful talent evaluation before giving that vital capability away just because some HC wants it.

Im ok with the Abrams is the Assistant GM role who keeps the office moving...but even perfect performance as an Assistant is far from the reason we select an actual GM.

imo
RE: RE: RE: The only people who think Abrams is  
BMac : 12/2/2019 5:37 pm : link
In comment 14700149 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14700047 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 14699520 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


post on BBI and/or work in East Rutherford.

He's average at best and can typically avoid being too much of a liability. But when you have very little talent on your roster, your historic franchise QB coming off the books, and have just completed the biggest dead money purge in the league and you're still in the middle of the pack for cap room in a year when there is more cap space across the league than ever before, "very good" is a wildly homer view of how Abrams is doing.




The Giants are currently #8 in cap space for 2020, with more coming in the form of the regular annual raise and the shedding of Eli, et al. That's hardly middle-of-the-pack.


Where are you getting that they're #8? OTC has them at #12 in current cap room for 2020, and 13th in effective cap space (since they only have 36 players under contract for 2020).

The Giants currently have $63.8M in 2020 space, with the league median at $50.5M and the league average at $49.7M. They're not squarely on the middle, but they're a lot closer to that $50M midpoint than they are to the top (average of $95.9M cap room for the top 5 teams in terms of space).

I guess we can debate the semantics of "middle of the pack," but the reality is, with very little talent on the roster and a franchise QB contract coming off the books, the Giants are not as close to the top of the league in cap space as they probably should be, IMO. Link - ( New Window )


Clarification. The operative term here is 2020, bnot 2019. 247 Sports has them ranked 8th currently heading into 2020. Whether or not you agree with that isn't germane. Of course, if you want to do an exhaustive analysis, be my guest. I respect OTC, but they appear to be using different parameters.
Is it possible that we're a little TOO pessimistic about Mara?  
BestFeature : 12/2/2019 5:46 pm : link
These guys DO have money on the line and most importantly pride. He won't just do the dumbest possible shit for no good reason would he?
If you want a good cap guy  
Bill in UT : 12/2/2019 5:49 pm : link
look at Dallas. Every year we think they're fucked with the cap and every year they aren't
RE: This team needs to  
Leg of Theismann : 12/2/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14699558 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
stop fucking around by plugging holes that they think could be the problem. They need a professional to run the entire football operation, from GM, to coach, to scouts, to capologists, to player evaluations. There is nobody currently in the organization that I trust to make those decisions. The time has come to burn the whole thing to the ground and let someone new build it back up.


As long as John Mara is the owner, he's going to think he knows what's best for the organization, and that means he is going to stay within the organization when hiring. It will forever just be about "doing it the Giants way" because this organization has had success in the past and they are constantly trying to just recreate that by hiring people connected to the org. But any of the great Giants teams in the past have had SOME semblance of forward/new thinking, even if they have stayed old-school in a lot of ways. As much as a lot of people maybe don't want to admit it, even Jerry Reese's methods were necessary (combined with Accorsi/Coughlin players and methods) in winning SBs in 2007 and 2011. We need SOME sort of youth and 21st century NFL philosophy to move this organization forward, or we'll continue to be left in the dust by the teams adapting year after year around us.

Look at any successful organization: they improvise, adapt, overcome. From the Pats, to the Ravens, to the Eagles. There is no ONE way of doing things that will forever work like magic. But when the Giants try to "adapt to the times" with their more player-friendly coaches in Shurmur and McAdoo, they just end up looking like imbeciles because they aren't actually smart nor have any talent.
RE: Is it possible that we're a little TOO pessimistic about Mara?  
bw in dc : 12/2/2019 6:08 pm : link
In comment 14700310 BestFeature said:
Quote:
These guys DO have money on the line and most importantly pride. He won't just do the dumbest possible shit for no good reason would he?


What money is on the line? Their labor costs are fixed and they are awash in cash from the TV contracts, merchandise, PSLs, concessions, parking, etc.

And now the NFPLA looks like they are going to be stupid enough to expand the regular season to 17 games, which is basically a layoff to the 18th game. In other words, more money is on the way.

Mara's problem is he's myopic. He's surrounded by a bunch of yes-men who are constantly telling him what he wants to here - the "Giants Way" will work.

And this was never more evident than almost two years ago to the date he hired Ernie Accorsi to go out and find the best GM who will carry on the "Giants Way".
'retires" ( less a certainty but a very distinct possibility'  
Torrag : 12/2/2019 6:15 pm : link
Except there is no basis in fact he's looking to resign. In fact all statements he's ever made to address it are to the contrary.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The only people who think Abrams is  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14700284 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 14700149 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14700047 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 14699520 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


post on BBI and/or work in East Rutherford.

He's average at best and can typically avoid being too much of a liability. But when you have very little talent on your roster, your historic franchise QB coming off the books, and have just completed the biggest dead money purge in the league and you're still in the middle of the pack for cap room in a year when there is more cap space across the league than ever before, "very good" is a wildly homer view of how Abrams is doing.




The Giants are currently #8 in cap space for 2020, with more coming in the form of the regular annual raise and the shedding of Eli, et al. That's hardly middle-of-the-pack.


Where are you getting that they're #8? OTC has them at #12 in current cap room for 2020, and 13th in effective cap space (since they only have 36 players under contract for 2020).

The Giants currently have $63.8M in 2020 space, with the league median at $50.5M and the league average at $49.7M. They're not squarely on the middle, but they're a lot closer to that $50M midpoint than they are to the top (average of $95.9M cap room for the top 5 teams in terms of space).

I guess we can debate the semantics of "middle of the pack," but the reality is, with very little talent on the roster and a franchise QB contract coming off the books, the Giants are not as close to the top of the league in cap space as they probably should be, IMO. Link - ( New Window )



Clarification. The operative term here is 2020, bnot 2019. 247 Sports has them ranked 8th currently heading into 2020. Whether or not you agree with that isn't germane. Of course, if you want to do an exhaustive analysis, be my guest. I respect OTC, but they appear to be using different parameters.

All the numbers I listed are for 2020, not 2019.

If you want to use 247 Sports as your source, be my guest, but I'll go ahead and bow out of the conversation and save my words for someone who uses reputable cap info sources (like OTC).

I don't have to agree or disagree with your point to know that 247 is the equivalent of using AOL as your ISP.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The only people who think Abrams is  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 6:34 pm : link
In comment 14700284 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 14700149 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14700047 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 14699520 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


post on BBI and/or work in East Rutherford.

He's average at best and can typically avoid being too much of a liability. But when you have very little talent on your roster, your historic franchise QB coming off the books, and have just completed the biggest dead money purge in the league and you're still in the middle of the pack for cap room in a year when there is more cap space across the league than ever before, "very good" is a wildly homer view of how Abrams is doing.




The Giants are currently #8 in cap space for 2020, with more coming in the form of the regular annual raise and the shedding of Eli, et al. That's hardly middle-of-the-pack.


Where are you getting that they're #8? OTC has them at #12 in current cap room for 2020, and 13th in effective cap space (since they only have 36 players under contract for 2020).

The Giants currently have $63.8M in 2020 space, with the league median at $50.5M and the league average at $49.7M. They're not squarely on the middle, but they're a lot closer to that $50M midpoint than they are to the top (average of $95.9M cap room for the top 5 teams in terms of space).

I guess we can debate the semantics of "middle of the pack," but the reality is, with very little talent on the roster and a franchise QB contract coming off the books, the Giants are not as close to the top of the league in cap space as they probably should be, IMO. Link - ( New Window )



Clarification. The operative term here is 2020, bnot 2019. 247 Sports has them ranked 8th currently heading into 2020. Whether or not you agree with that isn't germane. Of course, if you want to do an exhaustive analysis, be my guest. I respect OTC, but they appear to be using different parameters.

Wait a second - is the article linked below your source data? You're using an article written in July and claiming that it's accurate? You do know that cap room is dynamic and that a lot has changed in the past five months, right? While we're throwing around operative terms, how about we focus on "currently"?

And you tried to claim that I was the one using outdated info?

Link - ( New Window )
RE: GD  
Rafflee : 12/2/2019 8:59 pm : link
In comment 14700226 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Or he knows what's wrong but is ineffective at coaching people to see the flaws in their approach. Or he is ignored.

Or he lets the GM job spent Mara's money any old way.

Or or or.

Its not a job where one can show he can be a front line decision maker

Could the secretary handle something much more competently than the boss? Sure. I hope so. Did she hear the same things he did? Often yes and many times before he did.

Can she run the company? We have no idea.

and I think that they should have an idea ahead of time this next time around. They also should look at a track record of successful talent evaluation before giving that vital capability away just because some HC wants it.

Im ok with the Abrams is the Assistant GM role who keeps the office moving...but even perfect performance as an Assistant is far from the reason we select an actual GM.

imo


How about if THE SECRETARY is a Man?
Back to the Corner