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Saquon is extremely overrated and that is the truth

CY2020 : 12/2/2019 2:57 pm
He's not the kind of RB who sets the tempo of a game. He doesn't square his shoulders, run downhill, and run thru defenders. He doesn't keep the chains moving. He is hesitant, lacks vision, is afraid of contact, is flat out below average running between the Tackles, and is a poor blocker.

I see Saquon as just a more talented James White: A pass-catching back who will occasionally break off a couple big runs.
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RE: Doesn't matter if  
Ned In Atlanta : 12/2/2019 3:57 pm : link
In comment 14700054 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
he's overrated or not b/c as I've said and gotten killed for hundreds of times on this site, IT'S A MEANINGLESS POSITION IN TODAY'S NFL. The mistake wasn't that we drafted Saquon at #2 overall. I still think he's going to be a great player. The mistake was drafting a RB at all in that position. That move, in and by itself, substantially set this franchise back.



You came back out of the wood works after Darnold had three good games and were pounding your chest. I suspect we will see a pattern with you. He played great against the hapless bengals yesterday
RE: RE: Doesn't matter if  
Josh in the City : 12/2/2019 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14700062 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
In comment 14700054 Josh in the City said:


Quote:


he's overrated or not b/c as I've said and gotten killed for hundreds of times on this site, IT'S A MEANINGLESS POSITION IN TODAY'S NFL. The mistake wasn't that we drafted Saquon at #2 overall. I still think he's going to be a great player. The mistake was drafting a RB at all in that position. That move, in and by itself, substantially set this franchise back.




You came back out of the wood works after Darnold had three good games and were pounding your chest. I suspect we will see a pattern with you. He played great against the hapless bengals yesterday

Nope, I never left. Do you think Daniel Jones is a much better player than Sam Darnold? I still don't. And even though I liked Darnold in that draft, that's not even the point. The point is you don't take a RB at #2 overall under any circumstance...not only if you plan on drafting a QB.
If you mean overrated  
rocco8112 : 12/2/2019 4:10 pm : link
because he was goven a gold jacket by some after one season, than sure

But, he can play, I would like to see some more physicality, he is a big guy and he seems to like dancing around too much.

He did have a high ankle sprain, not making excuses,but that is a bitch of an injury.

I think Barkley will be an asset going forward, he still may light it up this season. The team should get a sledgehammer RB to go along with Barkley.

He's a talented kid  
Metnut : 12/2/2019 4:11 pm : link
but I can't believe we took him at #2 overall. The position just doesn't have the impact in today's NFL to justify that kind of asset IMO.

Even worse was the GM making remarks about how he didn't consider a trade down. He follows that up by mocking analytics, signing Solder to a record deal, and then trading two draft picks for a rental.

We can't change the past, and have to hope that Barkley and Jones can be core parts of the next winning Giants team, but I've had enough of the DG blunders.

Let's bring in a new GM and coach to lead this franchise into the next decade.
He was just  
mittenedman : 12/2/2019 4:20 pm : link
never a physical guy. Weight room freak but on the field he's a 230# LeSean McCoy. He could be a 2,000 yard RB every year for Andy Reid, Belichick or lots of others but he could also be terrible if used incorrectly.
Idiot  
LS : 12/2/2019 4:21 pm : link
kicker
RE: Iíve always felt that  
smshmth8690 : 12/2/2019 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14700019 Beef Wellington said:
Quote:
You donít draft a RB in the first round. Especially with the lack of talent on the Giant O line


^^^^^^^^ Best new poster handle in a while.
Head spinning  
HomerJones45 : 12/2/2019 4:26 pm : link
in one year, he went from a generational back to overrated????!!!!
RE: First off, who are you?  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/2/2019 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14700010 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
You obviously have taken a new name and registered today just to stir up the pot here. So before I talk with you, who are you? Or what was your previous name you went by?

RE: There is something to the Eli affect here  
FStubbs : 12/2/2019 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14700059 wonderback said:
Quote:
But this line is really bad. How many times does Saquon find a defender standing in the backfield as soon as the handoff is made. Unless you've played the position you have no idea how destructive that can be to a back, even if you break that tackle.

Having said that, he isn't wrong about Eli. That's a difficult thing for us to quantify not know what plays are being called and how the process for changes at the line is allowed by Jones.


I'm surprised people are taking this as a joke. It's a HUGE reason why Barkley sucks at pass coverage and can't find holes. It's also caused the OL to play worse, because Eli was constantly changing plays at the line of scrimmage and he's a better offensive play caller than Shurmur is. Barkley's having to learn how to play the position in the NFL without relying on the QB as an on field coach.
This year's rushing leaders are  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2019 4:55 pm : link
Nick Chubb
McCaffrey
Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs

The giants won two super bowls with no name RBs, and people want to pledge allegiance to gettleman for spending the #2 pick on a RB.

RE: RE: There is something to the Eli affect here  
BBelle21 : 12/2/2019 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14700133 FStubbs said:
Quote:
In comment 14700059 wonderback said:


Quote:


But this line is really bad. How many times does Saquon find a defender standing in the backfield as soon as the handoff is made. Unless you've played the position you have no idea how destructive that can be to a back, even if you break that tackle.

Having said that, he isn't wrong about Eli. That's a difficult thing for us to quantify not know what plays are being called and how the process for changes at the line is allowed by Jones.



I'm surprised people are taking this as a joke. It's a HUGE reason why Barkley sucks at pass coverage and can't find holes. It's also caused the OL to play worse, because Eli was constantly changing plays at the line of scrimmage and he's a better offensive play caller than Shurmur is. Barkley's having to learn how to play the position in the NFL without relying on the QB as an on field coach.


Honestly, Iím surprised more people arenít talking about this. Itís all my family mentions whenever they see Barkley struggle these days. Jones might get there one day, but everything Eli did with his mind helped his team even if the execution was inconsistent. Eli absolutely helped/coached Saquon from a mental aspect. Saquon always talked about it in the post games last season. Sad, but at least Shurmur has nowhere to hide anymore.
Hereís another novel concept also  
DonnieD89 : 12/2/2019 5:12 pm : link
Why not utilize him appropriately? Panther seem to be doing a good job with McCaffrey. Tampa Bay seems to be doing a good job with Chubb.
RE: This year's rushing leaders are  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/2/2019 5:17 pm : link
In comment 14700173 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Nick Chubb
McCaffrey
Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs

The giants won two super bowls with no name RBs, and people want to pledge allegiance to gettleman for spending the #2 pick on a RB.


And yet, as you say that, the 4 rushing leaders were all picked in the first 2 rounds.
RE: This year's rushing leaders are  
darren in pdx : 12/2/2019 5:30 pm : link
In comment 14700173 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Nick Chubb
McCaffrey
Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs

The giants won two super bowls with no name RBs, and people want to pledge allegiance to gettleman for spending the #2 pick on a RB.


Picked #35, #8, #45 and #24..Zeke was taken #4. Gurley was #10. Michel was #31. Mark Ingram was #28 and the Ravens are built solely on the running game. Barkley was considered the best prospect to come out of college since Peyton Manning, he was the BPA in that draft. If the Giants as a team weren't a dumpster fire no one would be latching on to this. They'd still fucking suck if they took a different player than Barkley as well. It's a fucking team sport.

The narrative that running backs are useless or not valued in today's NFL is bullshit. And the other narrative is that you can find just as good or better ones in later rounds of the draft, yet, you can do the research and find good players of any position in every round of the draft, the probability of them being good drastically drops the further you go each round, surprising, isn't it?
RE: RE: This year's rushing leaders are  
map7711 : 12/2/2019 5:44 pm : link
In comment 14700233 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14700173 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Nick Chubb
McCaffrey
Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs

The giants won two super bowls with no name RBs, and people want to pledge allegiance to gettleman for spending the #2 pick on a RB.




And yet, as you say that, the 4 rushing leaders were all picked in the first 2 rounds.


Forget it. Heís on a roll.
RE: We need Duke Johnson  
montanagiant : 12/2/2019 5:57 pm : link
In comment 14699979 Anakim said:
Quote:
.

lol
He's a 40 Home Run Guy  
arniefez : 12/2/2019 5:59 pm : link
but he hits .220 and strikes out 200 times.
RE: RE: RE: This year's rushing leaders are  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2019 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14700303 map7711 said:
Quote:
In comment 14700233 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14700173 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Nick Chubb
McCaffrey
Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs

The giants won two super bowls with no name RBs, and people want to pledge allegiance to gettleman for spending the #2 pick on a RB.




And yet, as you say that, the 4 rushing leaders were all picked in the first 2 rounds.



Forget it. Heís on a roll.


The conversation naturally changes quite a bit if the giants take a RB in the second round and fix a different position at #2 overall. Isnt that the entire point?
RE: RE: This year's rushing leaders are  
AndyMilligan : 12/2/2019 6:14 pm : link
In comment 14700264 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
In comment 14700173 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Nick Chubb
McCaffrey
Derrick Henry
Josh Jacobs

The giants won two super bowls with no name RBs, and people want to pledge allegiance to gettleman for spending the #2 pick on a RB.




Picked #35, #8, #45 and #24..Zeke was taken #4. Gurley was #10. Michel was #31. Mark Ingram was #28 and the Ravens are built solely on the running game. Barkley was considered the best prospect to come out of college since Peyton Manning, he was the BPA in that draft. If the Giants as a team weren't a dumpster fire no one would be latching on to this. They'd still fucking suck if they took a different player than Barkley as well. It's a fucking team sport.

The narrative that running backs are useless or not valued in today's NFL is bullshit. And the other narrative is that you can find just as good or better ones in later rounds of the draft, yet, you can do the research and find good players of any position in every round of the draft, the probability of them being good drastically drops the further you go each round, surprising, isn't it?


umm no.. Barkley was not the best player since Manning, that is just hype you read here. As it turns out Lamar and Mahomes might be, but we failed to get both those guys when they were within our grasp..
Barkley is  
AndyMilligan : 12/2/2019 6:18 pm : link
an explosive home run threat who might take it to the house every time he touches the ball. So far it seems he doesn't make a living powering between the tackles. It just doesn't seem to be what he is best at. He is a great and dynamic player as long as he stays healthy and retains his explosiveness. Still not a great pick at #2. Poor use of positional value. But should be a very good to great player going forward.
Jersey Joe  
NBGblue : 12/2/2019 6:30 pm : link
it that you??? Been a long time.
RE: RE: RE: How do you explain last year?  
CY2020 : 12/2/2019 6:37 pm : link
In comment 14699997 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14699992 CY2020 said:


Quote:


In comment 14699989 DonnieD89 said:


Quote:


Heís not having a stellar year this year; however, he was injured early and has not performed like he did last year. His injury is nagging. Another thing that I have noticed is that when he gets the ball, the D line meets him two or 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage. How the hell are you supposed to be effective when you donít have any blocking. I could honestly say that the blocking was better last year than this year. How do you account for all the Daniel Jones fumbles? Quite the coincidence, isnít it? I think you need to scout much better.




Eli Manning.

Eli was an absolute master at checking his RB into optimal plays, in subtle ways that went unnoticed by the casual fan.

Saquon is no longer benefitting from Eli's audibles at the LOS. Jones is an enormous downgrade from Eli in that aspect.


I don't care what anyone else says, I'm glad you're here on BBI. How else would a casual fan like myself find out that Barkley's excellence last year was due to Eli?



Keep scrolling down from your post and you'll see that many Giants fans agree with me on the Eli point.

Because it is true.
RE: We need Duke Johnson  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/2/2019 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14699979 Anakim said:
Quote:
.


Best troll ever.
RE: RE: RE: There is something to the Eli affect here  
CY2020 : 12/2/2019 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14700188 BBelle21 said:
Quote:
In comment 14700133 FStubbs said:


Quote:


In comment 14700059 wonderback said:


Quote:


But this line is really bad. How many times does Saquon find a defender standing in the backfield as soon as the handoff is made. Unless you've played the position you have no idea how destructive that can be to a back, even if you break that tackle.

Having said that, he isn't wrong about Eli. That's a difficult thing for us to quantify not know what plays are being called and how the process for changes at the line is allowed by Jones.



I'm surprised people are taking this as a joke. It's a HUGE reason why Barkley sucks at pass coverage and can't find holes. It's also caused the OL to play worse, because Eli was constantly changing plays at the line of scrimmage and he's a better offensive play caller than Shurmur is. Barkley's having to learn how to play the position in the NFL without relying on the QB as an on field coach.



Honestly, Iím surprised more people arenít talking about this. Itís all my family mentions whenever they see Barkley struggle these days. Jones might get there one day, but everything Eli did with his mind helped his team even if the execution was inconsistent. Eli absolutely helped/coached Saquon from a mental aspect. Saquon always talked about it in the post games last season. Sad, but at least Shurmur has nowhere to hide anymore.



Absolutely. 1000%.

The fact that there are fans on here who actually disagree with the notion of Saquon benefitting from Eli's audibles and being an "on field coach"...is shocking.
RE: He's a 40 Home Run Guy  
CY2020 : 12/2/2019 6:49 pm : link
In comment 14700339 arniefez said:
Quote:
but he hits .220 and strikes out 200 times.



Perfect analogy.

Adam Dunn of the NFL
Barkley is certainly overrated here on BBI  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:32 pm : link
Probably by people in general.

I know that many here don't believe in statistical analysis, but the analysis shows that there is no correlation between winning and rushing yards, and winning and yards per rush. However, if we create an running efficiency metric that varies based on down and distance (usually at least 40% of necessary yards on 1st down, 50% on 2nd, and making a 1st on 3rd down), then we do find a correlation between rushing effieciency and winning.

Barkley is one of the least efficient runners in the NFL PERIOD. His running around in the backfield is hurting the Giants offense... Badly.

This is not saying that SB lacks of talent, but he has to learn to make better use of it. His failures have everything to do with his running style. SB wants to hit the homerun every time he gets the ball. He tries to do too much, rather than take what he can get and move on to the next play.

This has been a knock on him as a pro, and all throughout his college years.

Last year he was 41st out of 47 RB in rushing efficiency. This year he is 33rd (dead last out of qualifying candidates) in terms of rushing efficiency.

Of course the OL shared the responsibility of this poor performance. But if the RB is so dependent on the OL to look good. Then doesn't that belie the logic of spending so much resources on a RB rather than the OL...

Rushing Success 2018
Rk Player Suc
Rate
1 G.Edwards 63%
2 A.Kamara 58%
3 M.Ingram 57%
4 T.Gurley 57%
5 K.Hunt 55%
6 A.Jones 55%
7 C.McCaffrey 55%
8 M.Mack 54%
9 D.Martin 53%
10 S.Michel 53%
11 K.Johnson 53%
12 M.Gordon 53%
13 A.Ekeler 52%
14 M.Davis 52%
15 C.Carson 51%
16 D.Henry 51%
17 J.Howard 50%
18 J.Adams 50%
19 N.Chubb 50%
20 F.Gore 50%
21 E.Elliott 50%
22 J.Conner 49%
23 J.Mixon 49%
24 P.Lindsay 49%
25 T.J.Yeldon 48%
26 L.Fournette 47%
27 A.Collins 47%
28 A.Peterson 47%
29 R.Freeman 46%
30 L.Murray 46%
31 M.Breida 46%
32 J.Williams 45%
33 K.Drake 45%
34 P.Barber 44%
35 C.Ivory 44%
36 L.Miller 44%
27 T.Coleman 43%
38 A.Morris 41%
39 A.Blue 41%
40 D.Cook 41%
41 S.Barkley 41%
42 C.Hyde 39%
43 Da.Johnson 38%
44 L.Blount 37%
45 L.McCoy 37%
46 I.Crowell 36%
47 D.Lewis 34%

Rushing Success 2019
1 L.Murray 61%
2 M.Ingram 60%
3 A.Jones 59%
4 C.Carson 56%
5 C.Hyde 55%
6 A.Kamara 54%
7 E.Elliott 54%
8 M.Mack 53%
9 J.Howard 53%
10 P.Lindsay 51%
11 J.Jacobs 51%
12 T.Gurley 50%
13 D.Cook 50%
14 D.Henry 49%
15 M.Gordon 48%
16 F.Gore 47%
17 R.Jones 47%
18 C.McCaffrey 47%
19 M.Sanders 46%
20 A.Peterson 46%
21 S.Michel 46%
22 L.Bell 45%
23 J.Conner 45%
24 J.Mixon 45%
24 R.Freeman 45%
26 N.Chubb 45%
27 D.Montgomery 44%
28 P.Barber 44%
29 M.Breida 44%
30 D.Freeman 42%
31 L.Fournette 41%
32 T.Coleman 40%
33 S.Barkley 38%
Data courtesy of Football Outsiders  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:36 pm : link
2019
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb/2019

2018
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb/2018
Itís the Oline  
NikkiMac : 12/2/2019 7:36 pm : link
Other backs on teams with better line can be more patient and wait for the blocks to develop and cut back if Barkley does that he will be stopped way behind the LOS
RE: Itís the Oline  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14700465 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Other backs on teams with better line can be more patient and wait for the blocks to develop and cut back if Barkley does that he will be stopped way behind the LOS

Then why spend a #2 and 7M on a runner like Barkley.... Shouldn't that capital have been spent making the OL better?
There are multiple ways  
crick n NC : 12/2/2019 7:47 pm : link
To build a team
RE: There are multiple ways  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:52 pm : link
In comment 14700477 crick n NC said:
Quote:
To build a team

Sure... And most of those ways will fail...

Given the results we have had here. I think it is safe to say that getting a rusher like Barkley without having good OL players is a not one of the successful ways.
RE: There are multiple ways  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2019 8:13 pm : link
In comment 14700477 crick n NC said:
Quote:
To build a team


Absolutely. And a team and a GM with vision might have seen how good Quinton Nelson was.

You pay these guys not just to make the easiest decisions. As it turns out, Nelson was every bit as advertised and makes players around him better.

I didnt want a guard at #2. But I'm also not paid six figures to know better.
RE: There are multiple ways  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 8:22 pm : link
In comment 14700477 crick n NC said:
Quote:
To build a team


and clearly there is at least one wrong way...
I don't  
crick n NC : 12/2/2019 8:27 pm : link
Think the results are in yet. Building a team typically takes time and various acquisitions.
I think its fair to the say the results  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 8:30 pm : link
are definitely not in yet...
RE: I don't  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 11:58 pm : link
In comment 14700523 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Think the results are in yet. Building a team typically takes time and various acquisitions.

I never expected this rebuild to be quick. I was predicting a 5 or 6 win season this year.

I was expecting some positive signs of the team moving in a good direction. While I would agree that the final results are not in yet. I think we can safely say that the results so far are way below expectations. Far enough below, that my opinion is that the team shouldn't wait for the final results. But, that's just my opinion.
I didnít know Skip Bayless posted on BBI  
Aspiring Slacker : 12/3/2019 12:34 am : link
.
Let's not forget  
JFIB : 12/3/2019 5:59 am : link
That DJ is not afforded the same luxury of permissions to change the play at the LOS as Eli did. I'm sure he's capable but Shurmer does not allow it. If he is not ready for that kind of responsibility then I have to question our QB Guru coach who's responsibility it is to have the QB ready after 10 games.
RE: I don't  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/3/2019 8:14 am : link
In comment 14700523 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Think the results are in yet. Building a team typically takes time and various acquisitions.

The problem is that not all players at all positions have the same shelf life. So while there are multiple ways to build a team, and you're certainly correct that the results aren't final yet (are they ever?), I think we can validate to some extent the assertion that if you build your team in a general sequence that factors for and favors the dependent nature of certain positions and the varying length of time required for certain positions to reach their prime relative to other positions, you might be more effective in having the core of your team reach their prime at or around the same time.

RB is a position that relies on so many others to be truly excellent. And it's also a position where players tend to enter their prime almost immediately. Building your team around a highly drafted, highly paid RB at the very beginning of a rebuild is more than likely going to be an extremely inefficient use of finite resources.

It has always been clear that Gettleman - if we assume that he does have something even approaching full autonomy (and I feel strongly that it's an even bigger problem if he doesn't) - either willfully disregarded the fact that a RB needs a team to be more fully built before he can be effective, or did a miserable enough job of scouting his own roster that he didn't disregard that fact at all and simply thought that his team was better than it actually was. Either one is a troubling flaw in our GM.
GD  
cosmicj : 12/3/2019 8:24 am : link
I believe that DG spent the 2018 offseason believing the team was better than their 2017 record, and was rudely awakened by how 2018 began. Since the midpoint of 2018, he has been acting like this is a rebuild.

I think we can all agree that people can learn and change their minds. Letís at least allow the possibility that DG has learned from his first year back with the Giants.
It all boils back to Shurmur.  
mittenedman : 12/3/2019 8:51 am : link
He has actually found a way to render Saquon Barkley ineffective.

Go back to the 1st half vs. GB. The Giants have a 3rd and 1 early in the game. Shurmur lines up with Jones under C in a formation that is tipping run from the start. No FB, no lead blocker of any kind. Slow-developing Inside zone (of course) hand-off to Barkley. And (of course) the LB looks like he knows the play better than the Giants do & shoots the gap, nailing Barkley as he takes the hand-off. Loss of 4 yards, Barkley looks like he wants to cry. But it's Shurmur.

It's the perfect storm - use him predictably AND between the tackles AND featured as a pass blocker AND not used in the passing game as a receiver.

If you're going to use him like Brandon Jacobs you'll be sorely disappointed.

Imagine what a beast he'd be for Andy Reid (for example). We wouldn't be hearing anything but how he's the greatest RB of all time. Coaching is everything in the NFL.
RE: GD  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/3/2019 9:05 am : link
In comment 14700849 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I believe that DG spent the 2018 offseason believing the team was better than their 2017 record, and was rudely awakened by how 2018 began. Since the midpoint of 2018, he has been acting like this is a rebuild.

I think we can all agree that people can learn and change their minds. Letís at least allow the possibility that DG has learned from his first year back with the Giants.

Fair enough. And I'd never expect someone as ahem, prideful, as DG to admit a mistake, but do you think he'd take Barkley again at #2 if he had it to do all over again, knowing that he was entering a protracted rebuild rather than trying to recapture their success of 2016? Or do you think he approaches that 2018 draft differently?

Unless you think he'd do it differently, I feel like his self-scouting of the roster in 2017 is almost irrelevant, isn't it?
RE: RE: I don't  
crick n NC : 12/3/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14700841 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14700523 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Think the results are in yet. Building a team typically takes time and various acquisitions.


The problem is that not all players at all positions have the same shelf life. So while there are multiple ways to build a team, and you're certainly correct that the results aren't final yet (are they ever?), I think we can validate to some extent the assertion that if you build your team in a general sequence that factors for and favors the dependent nature of certain positions and the varying length of time required for certain positions to reach their prime relative to other positions, you might be more effective in having the core of your team reach their prime at or around the same time.

RB is a position that relies on so many others to be truly excellent. And it's also a position where players tend to enter their prime almost immediately. Building your team around a highly drafted, highly paid RB at the very beginning of a rebuild is more than likely going to be an extremely inefficient use of finite resources.

It has always been clear that Gettleman - if we assume that he does have something even approaching full autonomy (and I feel strongly that it's an even bigger problem if he doesn't) - either willfully disregarded the fact that a RB needs a team to be more fully built before he can be effective, or did a miserable enough job of scouting his own roster that he didn't disregard that fact at all and simply thought that his team was better than it actually was. Either one is a troubling flaw in our GM.


Gatorare, I see what you're saying. I certainly understand where you are coming from. I've been in a wait and see mindset where I tried not to get too high on early results or too low on negative results, my thinking has shifted a bit since I feel Shurmur was a bad hire (if Gettleman approved he has to deal with consequences of not extending his life with a new coach). I feel this is a horribly coached team where players are not put into positions to succeed often enough. I feel that is very important. The easy thing to do is get rid of chrome and start again, but I'm often wary of the easy approach.

The question everyone wants to know is, why is this team so bad? There are multiple reasons, but there is an inhibitor that isn't allowing this team to grow. I don't think it's easy to answer that question, but I think coaching could be a major part of it.

How much patience do I have with Gettleman? Next year with a new coach there needs to be results that points to bad coaching being a major culprit. But, again maybe I'm wrong, I don't know anything about coaching which makes me think, "why am I so sure Shurmur is the culprit?" It's a guess, I'm guessing he is the main issue, like others are guessing Gettelman is the problem or Mara, or a combo of them.

One last thing. I care about the Giants, but they are lower on my life priority list than they used to be. I don't enter deep into these conversations much, because ultimately I'm not worried about what happens, I'm not worried about Barkley wearing down, I'm not worried about Daniel Jones being the next franchise qb. I hope it turns out for the best, but their philosophy on building and maintaining a team just don't worry me like it used to.
GD  
cosmicj : 12/3/2019 9:15 am : link
I donít know whether DG would have drafted Saquon if he thought he was commencing a rebuild. All the 2018 offseason actions point to a misevaluation of the Giants, that led to a number of bad decisions.

Itís too easy to project DGís mistakes through October 2018 into the future. We really need to look itís what heís done since then. I am one of the apparent minority here who think the Williams trade was at least OK, so the one decision since that Oct 2018 change in viewpoint that really disturbs me is the trade up for DeAndre Baker, which I see as a violation of the philosophy Gettleman has been espousing (culture, line play). But I love the other first rounders he selected, so there that...
RE: First off, who are you?  
gmenatlarge : 12/3/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14700010 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
You obviously have taken a new name and registered today just to stir up the pot here. So before I talk with you, who are you? Or what was your previous name you went by?


Speaking of new names you may need to change yours to 5Bowls...eventually!
RE: GD  
.McL. : 12/3/2019 1:37 pm : link
In comment 14700893 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I donít know whether DG would have drafted Saquon if he thought he was commencing a rebuild. All the 2018 offseason actions point to a misevaluation of the Giants, that led to a number of bad decisions.

Itís too easy to project DGís mistakes through October 2018 into the future. We really need to look itís what heís done since then. I am one of the apparent minority here who think the Williams trade was at least OK, so the one decision since that Oct 2018 change in viewpoint that really disturbs me is the trade up for DeAndre Baker, which I see as a violation of the philosophy Gettleman has been espousing (culture, line play). But I love the other first rounders he selected, so there that...

GD laid out the point nicely that many of us have been making about the folly of picking a RB before you have built the OL.

Since you have brought up the issue of what he has done since that choice, the OL was clearly a problem... And if you agree with the principle that GD laid out than the OL should have been a priority to clear holes for your other worldly RB and protect your shiny new QB. So, he lets a competent RG (Jamon Brown is/was competant) walk in FA, trades the only ER on the team for a better RG, and signs a 31 stopgap with a bad back at RT. He rolls with the 31 yo LT that did not look good the year before, and with the now 28 year old failed guard converted to center that has 2 games of experience and is coming off a broken leg. That's hardly what I would call focus on a position group that should be the priority. A position group that was a dumpster fire the previous season, and you should be trying to fill it with young core guys that will come into their primes really soon. Like before you lose the window for your other worldly RB.

Instead, he spent a #1 on another DL, after spending 2 the previous year, and then he spends 2 more from next year to get an 8 game rental on yet another DL. Apparently, Dave was only referring to the DL when he said how much he likes Hog-Mollies.
RE: He's a 40 Home Run Guy  
Thegratefulhead : 12/3/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14700339 arniefez said:
Quote:
but he hits .220 and strikes out 200 times.
Ron Kittle
RE: Barkley is certainly overrated here on BBI  
Thegratefulhead : 12/3/2019 1:46 pm : link
In comment 14700461 .McL. said:
Quote:
Probably by people in general.

I know that many here don't believe in statistical analysis, but the analysis shows that there is no correlation between winning and rushing yards, and winning and yards per rush. However, if we create an running efficiency metric that varies based on down and distance (usually at least 40% of necessary yards on 1st down, 50% on 2nd, and making a 1st on 3rd down), then we do find a correlation between rushing effieciency and winning.

Barkley is one of the least efficient runners in the NFL PERIOD. His running around in the backfield is hurting the Giants offense... Badly.

This is not saying that SB lacks of talent, but he has to learn to make better use of it. His failures have everything to do with his running style. SB wants to hit the homerun every time he gets the ball. He tries to do too much, rather than take what he can get and move on to the next play.

This has been a knock on him as a pro, and all throughout his college years.

Last year he was 41st out of 47 RB in rushing efficiency. This year he is 33rd (dead last out of qualifying candidates) in terms of rushing efficiency.

Of course the OL shared the responsibility of this poor performance. But if the RB is so dependent on the OL to look good. Then doesn't that belie the logic of spending so much resources on a RB rather than the OL...

Rushing Success 2018
Rk Player Suc
Rate
1 G.Edwards 63%
2 A.Kamara 58%
3 M.Ingram 57%
4 T.Gurley 57%
5 K.Hunt 55%
6 A.Jones 55%
7 C.McCaffrey 55%
8 M.Mack 54%
9 D.Martin 53%
10 S.Michel 53%
11 K.Johnson 53%
12 M.Gordon 53%
13 A.Ekeler 52%
14 M.Davis 52%
15 C.Carson 51%
16 D.Henry 51%
17 J.Howard 50%
18 J.Adams 50%
19 N.Chubb 50%
20 F.Gore 50%
21 E.Elliott 50%
22 J.Conner 49%
23 J.Mixon 49%
24 P.Lindsay 49%
25 T.J.Yeldon 48%
26 L.Fournette 47%
27 A.Collins 47%
28 A.Peterson 47%
29 R.Freeman 46%
30 L.Murray 46%
31 M.Breida 46%
32 J.Williams 45%
33 K.Drake 45%
34 P.Barber 44%
35 C.Ivory 44%
36 L.Miller 44%
27 T.Coleman 43%
38 A.Morris 41%
39 A.Blue 41%
40 D.Cook 41%
41 S.Barkley 41%
42 C.Hyde 39%
43 Da.Johnson 38%
44 L.Blount 37%
45 L.McCoy 37%
46 I.Crowell 36%
47 D.Lewis 34%

Rushing Success 2019
1 L.Murray 61%
2 M.Ingram 60%
3 A.Jones 59%
4 C.Carson 56%
5 C.Hyde 55%
6 A.Kamara 54%
7 E.Elliott 54%
8 M.Mack 53%
9 J.Howard 53%
10 P.Lindsay 51%
11 J.Jacobs 51%
12 T.Gurley 50%
13 D.Cook 50%
14 D.Henry 49%
15 M.Gordon 48%
16 F.Gore 47%
17 R.Jones 47%
18 C.McCaffrey 47%
19 M.Sanders 46%
20 A.Peterson 46%
21 S.Michel 46%
22 L.Bell 45%
23 J.Conner 45%
24 J.Mixon 45%
24 R.Freeman 45%
26 N.Chubb 45%
27 D.Montgomery 44%
28 P.Barber 44%
29 M.Breida 44%
30 D.Freeman 42%
31 L.Fournette 41%
32 T.Coleman 40%
33 S.Barkley 38%
Rock solid post. I succumbed to confirmation bias on the Barkley pick. It was a more tasteful scenario to believe in the pick and hope for the best. The results are irrefutable. Sad, should stop reading your posts, truth hurts too much.
Barkley is simply being misused  
Rudy5757 : 12/3/2019 3:40 pm : link
i didnt like picking him at #2 but he is a very talented player that is being used incorrectly. Games 1&2 he was very good so that could be the Eli factor as someone pointed out then he got injured so is it a post injury thing or is it missing Eli? I tend to think its an injury thing plus being misused.

Barkey is not a between the tackle type of RB so why are a majority of his plays running between the tackles? His is one of the best in space there is and yet we barely get him the ball in space. We dont use him the way we should. the guy is a legit talent and whether you liked the pick at #2 or not you cant deny that he is already one of the best RBs in the league but he is not a between the tackles guy like Elliott.

If SB was on Dallas he would be much better than Elliot is on Dallas and Elliot on the Giants would have more success than SB on the Giants. the way we run the ball we need an Elliott type, this is poor coaching and why Shurmur needs to go. Build the O around your players strengths dont force guys to do things they are not great at. we do the same thing with Engram, why do we ask him to block? He cant but we rely on him and he fails more often than not. Other coaches put players in position to succeed and limit teh amount of times they make a player do things they are not good at, Shurmur puts players in a position whether they are good at it or not.
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