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| Mara, the son of the late Wellington Mara, grew up within the Giants’ organizational structure: it’s all he knows. Mara believed he had the wrong people in those specific jobs, and that by replacing those people with “the right” people, success would soon follow. This method worked for his father; it has to work for him, right? |
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| Giants will have their third double-digit losing season for the first time since 1978-1980. Which is interesting, because after the 1978 season, then-commissioner Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model... Someone needs to tell Mara: he is in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything. |
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| If only Rozelle were around to tell Mara that he needs to move on from the dark ages to modern football. Shurmur is a by-product of everything that is wrong with the Giants. Fans can blame Shurmur, but Shurmur is the symptom, not the problem. |
The roster sure as fuck isn’t great but the lack of leadership and game by game direction is the number one priority right now. Start there.
Duggan's article on the Athletic yesterday about covering a losing team was pretty amusing.
And W/R/T the sub price, I wouldn't pay full price for it but they have sale prices often enough to make it worth it. Last year I paid $35 for the year and this year $30.
Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL.
Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara.
Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become.
After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore.
The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate.
That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired.
Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI.
So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play.
The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy.
Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight.
What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen?
Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )
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In comment 14700508 Britt in VA said:
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Since you all agree with his assessment?
Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM.
It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple
its not just the roster, its the wasting of assets (Sam Beal, RB at 2, Lauletta in the 4th, Leonard Williams, a DT at 17, trading up for Baker), refusal to trade down when the team has 900 holes, and refusal to be realistic about what this team has been for 3 year (garbage). And signing Golden Tate and giving the Eagles a comp pick is just infuriating. He has had tremendous opportunity to rebuild the franchise and he's squandered it.
Agreed. You could have even given him a pass about the 2018 draft if he went into draft pick acquisition mode. Instead he did the opposite with the Williams trade and trading up for Baker.
Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL.
Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara.
Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become.
After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore.
The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate.
That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired.
Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI.
So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play.
The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy.
Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight.
What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen? Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )
Nice post and link. Thanks.
Seubert, Shaun O'Hara, David Diehl. Were these guys great athletes with multiple Pro Bowl selections.
Solder was the 17th overall pick and 2nd tackle chosen in the 2011 draft. Flowers was the 9th overall pick in the 2015 draft. Diehl was a fifth round pick who made the Pro Bowl once as a replacement. No one ever called him very athletic. But Diehl was good enough to play left tackle through two undefeated playoff runs.
I submit that David Diehl on this team with this coach would be just as inadequate as Solders and Flowers. Send him back to Bill in New England and he'd play just as well as Solder did over there.
This obsession with the Mara's way of thinking being the key problem is a bit tiring. Yes, loyalty is a problem with this franchise and it always has been. But he's not going to sell the team. And the 49ers are proof that bad ownership doesn't doom a franchise.
The best hope is that the GM hires a good coach this time around.
Link - ( New Window )
The 49ers are actually an example of the 'modern' structure. They hired the coach and the coach hired a GM he could rely on to source talent specifically within the parameters of the coaches needs. I wouldn't say Lynch is a yes man for Shanahan but if a decision is disputed there there's only one guy making the final call and it's not Lynch.
Here we have Gettleman and his well stated preferences and biases in talent evaluation. For example if we had hired Shanahan I'm not sure how Gettleman's for large linemen would have worked with Shanahan's zone blocking scheme which favors mobility (the 49ers have one of the lightest olines in the NFL)
Nonsense, based on what? His magical transformation of this O-line from dysfunctional to disastrous, nice job, Getts! Or his transformation of a 3-13 team into a...3-13 team, YAy!!!
The 49ers are actually an example of the 'modern' structure. They hired the coach and the coach hired a GM he could rely on to source talent specifically within the parameters of the coaches needs. I wouldn't say Lynch is a yes man for Shanahan but if a decision is disputed there there's only one guy making the final call and it's not Lynch.
Here we have Gettleman and his well stated preferences and biases in talent evaluation. For example if we had hired Shanahan I'm not sure how Gettleman's for large linemen would have worked with Shanahan's zone blocking scheme which favors mobility (the 49ers have one of the lightest olines in the NFL)
That's a good point - the 49ers owners essentially "fired" themselves, taking a back seat and handing over the reigns to Lynch and Shanahan. They also put them on the same timeline - so sink or swim, they do it together.
Shurmur was almost destined to failure. He wasn't that great a coach to begin with, he entered a FO that had a long established relationship with preconceived notions of what they wanted to do. I even wonder if the OC was his choice or if Shula was chosen for him, which might be relevant to his decision not to hand over the playcalling responsibilities. I seriously doubt he was winning any power struggles over personnel decisions.
I don't know how his performance could be more clearly pathetic than to view it in comparison to what Miami is doing with a first year coach after fielding perhaps the worst roster of players in the last decade (their entire OL was practically practice squaders a year ago), and to see Shurmur's group get thoroughly outclassed during this losing streak by teams who are just as talent deficient with either first or second year coaches (Jets, Lions, Cardinals).
I was hopeful that in his second stint as a head coach Shurmur could build a staff that supports his weaknesses and throughout year 1 thought he was at minimum the best offensive playcaller we'd had in a couple of decades (not a high bar). This year he has regressed in almost every imaginable way and even with all new players his defensive coordinator has a non-competitive unit. Look no further than what Gregg Williams is doing in year 1 with many of his best players injured to see again the difference coaching can make.
I don't think the team has quit on Shurmur but they clearly have lost any belief in him being the guy to lead them successfully, and it's impossible to argue that assessment.
Good decisions vs. bad decisions, this team isn't only limited by it's coaching.
Trouble for us is that Getty has squandered top picks and later pcps now. (A RB at the 2 was never the right call and the jury is still out on DJ).
Anyway... Got to start by getting Getty out of the building. Get a new GM, and for gods sake don’t ask Ernie Accorsi to pick the GM.
Agree 100%.
Tag the Jets draft bust for a year.
Yeah, that makes sense. Just like giving up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to apply the tag to him.
The impact of that trade, of throwing away FA money on guys who can't play - they all add up to 2-10. They're not being dramatized, the Giants are a fucking tragedy.
It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.
I think it's been under dramatized. Teams heading for lousy records basically never make this type of move. There are many reasons for that.
It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.
Yeah This is a stupid take -DG is the one who ran pro personnel for Giants -signed Mackenze, Ohara, AP, Plax, Hedgecock, should we keep going on?
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The Giants repeated the mistake of the Ogletree trade - trading much needed assets to pay a solid player market value.
It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.
Yeah This is a stupid take -DG is the one who ran pro personnel for Giants -signed Mackenze, Ohara, AP, Plax, Hedgecock, should we keep going on?
Right, and he wasn't in charge of asset allocation - thanks for agreeing.
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that doesn't immediately make him a bad player. Tag him for a year and see what he looks like under the next DC, and if he's not a difference maker let him walk and recoup a comp pick similar to 1 of the picks given up. The impact of that trade has been largely over dramatized.
Tag the Jets draft bust for a year.
Yeah, that makes sense. Just like giving up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to apply the tag to him.
The impact of that trade, of throwing away FA money on guys who can't play - they all add up to 2-10. They're not being dramatized, the Giants are a fucking tragedy.
Just because a guy doesn't become an all pro doesn't mean he's a bust - unlike Eli Apple or Flowers by all accounts he's a good guy and at minimum a solid starter who is very good against the run. I haven't seen anyone credibly state the guy is not at least a starting level player or a liability - as guys like Flowers and Apple again obviously were here.
Solid players whose draft pedigrees suggest they may still have some upside, in their mid-20's, and with a history of good health, are the exact type of FA profile I'd be looking for. When we let Linval Joseph and his 9 career sacks and 0 pro bowl appearances walk at age 25 he fit that exact profile. He's since started 85 games for Minnesota and anchored 1 of the better defenses in football over that period of time. And his career high is still 4 sacks.
100% - spending assets on good, not great players and needing to spend market rates to keep them for a team not sniffing contention is so dumb.
and if he resigns for a reasonable amount then we are talking about a 3rd and a 4th for a solid but unspectacular player. Which doesn't seem so out of balance to me given we aren't overflowing with solid players and we know the investment level paid was far below that paid for top level players his same age / draft pedigree (Ramsey, Tunsil, Mack, OBJ, etc). Yes he'd be a lot more expensive than a typical 3rd like BJ Hill, but he's also a better player from what i've seen.
And as far as BJ Hill goes he's definitely regressed and looking JAG'y but just the fact that he was good enough to make a few all rookie teams probably skews him closer towards a good outcome of a 3rd round pick than bad. As we are all too well aware more 3rd rounders probably never even see meaningful playing time than do. Or at least most of ours haven't in the last 3+ decades.
I actually think going almost entirely with 1 year deals is a decent strategy - LW on a tag included. That keeps maximum future flexibility to resign players who prove they are worth it (as Markus Golden may have done this year). I wouldn't be opposed to targeting 1 or 2 guys on bigger multi-year deals as well like a Shaq Thompson or an OL, but I fail to see where having $65m free vs. $80m will preclude them from anything.
I believe either scenario is still more space than they had when they got drunk in March 2016 and miraculously signed 3 of the top 8 highest paid FA that offseason.
I actually think going almost entirely with 1 year deals is a decent strategy - LW on a tag included. That keeps maximum future flexibility to resign players who prove they are worth it (as Markus Golden may have done this year). I wouldn't be opposed to targeting 1 or 2 guys on bigger multi-year deals as well like a Shaq Thompson or an OL, but I fail to see where having $65m free vs. $80m will preclude them from anything.
I believe either scenario is still more space than they had when they got drunk in March 2016 and miraculously signed 3 of the top 8 highest paid FA that offseason.
Neither you nor I can predict with any accuracy who will be available or when at this point. Again, this team needs players at almost every position. Markus Golden was a discounted player coming back from injury looking to play a year cheap to build his value. Whatever they paid him isn't actually representative of the cost of adding healthy, effective players who are going to improve the state of the team. You don't want to rely on guys coming off big injuries.
And even if you don't spend it all, you CAN carry a percentage of your cap saved over to the next year. You don't have to burn it all.
I tend to agree - I saw a list of the top 25 FA and most of the top 20 was projected to get resigned or tagged (including most BBI favorites like Yannick Ngakwe).
Separately, this is a pretty interesting chart from OTC that lays out which teams will be spenders and which won't based on available cap room + guys their need to resign. I don't believe it factors in guys who are likely to be cut (which should make our position look even more favorable).
Carolina in particular is not in good shape, so the best FA I could realistically see us landing is 1 of Shaq Thompson or James Bradberry. Both are guys who I think would be good signings.
And even if you don't spend it all, you CAN carry a percentage of your cap saved over to the next year. You don't have to burn it all.
On all of the above we agree and especially the bolded part - which is why I don't have an issue securing LW's rights right now. He's a healthy, performing asset, albeit not coming off a peak year (but again we also aren't paying a peak price - off his pro bowl second year acquiring him would have probably cost 2 firsts). They clearly view him as a potential core piece, and those are not easy to find in FA even if they aren't gamebreakers. For every great Markus Golden/Shaq Thompson there are 10 Deone Buchanon/Daryl Williams who end up cut a year later.
At the end of the day it will come down to their evaluation of him - if he's a good player going forward who starts 85 games here like Linval Joseph has in Minnesota, it will be viewed as a good move - even if he never quite lives up to the draft hype. If they overpay pay him and he disappoints he will be Ogletree 2.0. I can't tell you which he'll be because I haven't seen him enough but I don't mind the gamble. And I don't think we are "over a barrel" to resign him since we can tag him.
This has been going on for years & it’s because the GM/HC are 2 separate entities. It was an issue with Coughlin/Reese and still present today.
We’ve got Pat Shurmur as coach with an OC who was clearly a Gettleman pick.
We are all over the place.
I read it as you want to be in the top left quadrant (Colts and Dolphins in the best position). The Y axis is cap space (which is why it goes negative while the X axis doesn't). The higher up towards the top you are, the more cap room you have. We are slotted at $65m which is what we've seen reported.
The X axis is the OTC valuation of that team's UFA's. So the more good UFA's you have, the further to the right of the chart you are - like the Cowboys with Dak and Cooper leading the way of guys they need to resign.
We appear to be 1 of 6 teams in that top left quadrant projecting to have more cap room than players to resign. We also have room to further improve by cutting guys. Not sure we rate compared to others in terms of "room to be gained via cuts".
The Dolphins have a lot of cap space, sure...but signing high-priced UFAs is not how you build the foundation for a good team. Miami has no players and a bunch of cash. Conversely, Dallas has a lot of players and a bunch of cash. They have the option of paying Dak and/or Cooper. Good players. New England has a bunch of players that are all going to walk and be overpaid somewhere else (like Trey Flowers and Trent Brown were last year).
I don't see the Giants in an advantageous position here.
The positive for the giants is that they enter this offseason with a clear cap and most of the core of the roster under contract on their first contract. The best utilization of that cap room is up for discussion but they have it and that's better than not having it.
You know Khalil Mack basically went for 2 firsts, right?
You know Khalil Mack basically went for 2 firsts, right?
I think I said if he'd been traded at his peak which is admittedly a highly improbable hypothetical - rarely are second year players drafted 6th overall, off a pro bowl with 3 years of control left on his first contract up for sale. The best currently aged DL comparables I could think of from the 2018 draft would be Daron Payne, Vita Vea, or Bradley Chubb. I think any of them would return what Minkah Fitzpatrick returned and it's conceivable all could still return more than that even with Chubb's injury. I know Vea in particular has been coming on this year.
Correct - had things gone the same way there's no doubt whoever made that purchase would probably have some buyers remorse. But to buy low on anything previously high there's going to have been some non-ideal results along the way.
Maybe Williams just is what he is - a solid run plugger who gets some QB hits. Or maybe he is closer than anyone realizes to step his game up a little bit like both Smiths did after signing in GB this past season. For a 3rd + 4th round pick I think that's a decent gamble. Instead of risking a mega deal via UFA (which was far from a known outcome) we can tag him (twice if we want) for a motivated contract year. If it doesn't work out let him walk and recoup 1 of the picks. 0 dead money long term. Hopefully their eval on him is right and he ends up as good as Joseph worked out for Minnesota. Williams seems somewhat comparable to what Joseph was when Reese let him walk.
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We are about the middle of the pack in available cap space. So the amount is relative. I could easily see us missing out on guys some around here pegged as good fits...
I tend to agree - I saw a list of the top 25 FA and most of the top 20 was projected to get resigned or tagged (including most BBI favorites like Yannick Ngakwe).
Separately, this is a pretty interesting chart from OTC that lays out which teams will be spenders and which won't based on available cap room + guys their need to resign. I don't believe it factors in guys who are likely to be cut (which should make our position look even more favorable).
Carolina in particular is not in good shape, so the best FA I could realistically see us landing is 1 of Shaq Thompson or James Bradberry. Both are guys who I think would be good signings.
This chart can't be accurate. How is the infallible TC running the Jaguars into the ground with the cap for a second time?
We can talk about cap space all we want. Anything the Giants build will be on sand. Lol p
From our drafts those 3 years only Shepard has a 2nd contract here and he's been hurt most of the year. The only others who got multi-year 2nd contracts are Collins and Bobby Hart, though Flowers and Apple are at least still kind of starters. Tomlinson and Engram still have a chance. That's it and that is the biggest problem with this team and roster right now.
But all of that is well documented and it's why Jerry Reese and Marc Ross got fired. Complaints about "the core" is either willful ignorance of those poor results or agenda driven.
The young core from the past 2 drafts (Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Connelly, Hernandez, Slayton) is already a lot more promising than those previous 3, though it's certainly still early especially for the 2019 picks.
From our drafts those 3 years only Shepard has a 2nd contract here and he's been hurt most of the year. The only others who got multi-year 2nd contracts are Collins and Bobby Hart, though Flowers and Apple are at least still kind of starters. Tomlinson and Engram still have a chance. That's it and that is the biggest problem with this team and roster right now.
But all of that is well documented and it's why Jerry Reese and Marc Ross got fired. Complaints about "the core" is either willful ignorance of those poor results or agenda driven.
The young core from the past 2 drafts (Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Connelly, Hernandez, Slayton) is already a lot more promising than those previous 3, though it's certainly still early especially for the 2019 picks.
If the Giants are so bereft of talent in the core (and I agree with you that they are), why don't they have more cap room going into 2020, especially with a franchise QB coming off the books? It's not Reese, at least not very much - most of his players have already been purged, hence the lack of a talented core.
I think you might be leaving out carryover cap space. OTC linked below. The Giants are 6th lowest in committed cap spend for 2020, but aren't carrying over much cap room compared to other teams near the top of the list.
Link - ( New Window )
Emphasis added on the 'estimated cap space' because I take that at face value, that they have estimated all the inputs that go into estimating total cap space based on who is currently on the roster.