Lombardi skewers Giants, speaks the truth on The Athletic

bolded sentence is dead on. Shurmur's not a great coach - and neither is Bettcher. But they're both better than 2-10. The talent is a huge fucking problem.

note to OP: we can't read it.

its not a whole article, he gave you the information on the Giants. Rest of the article is around the league news

firing only shurmur and the coaching staff won't lead to any real change. Burn it down and build it back up from scratch.

Coach is an issue.

The formula NYG is using to manage is a legit structure implemented by man teams. But, the people hired may not be performing

You really can't argue with any of it. Mara hired Accorsi as a "consultant" for the GM search and he "recommended" his old buddy Gettleman. Accorsi was on with Michael Kay last year and basically admitted he owed Gettleman a favor after Reese was hired. It's all a sham.

"but more tragically, Giants fans might have lost all hope that John Mara will fix the immense old-school problems that linger throughout the Giants’ organization."

Interestingly enough, my life is fine without the Giants. If this Sunday was any indication, not caring about the NY Giants is better than caring about them. Until that changes I will spend my time and discretionary income elsewhere. You should too, it might get fixed faster.

Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names.

Fast forward to 2019. Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names.

Compare the names on the two lists - then let me know where you think the problem is.

Gettleman is doing a superb job assembling elite talent and is being crushed by Shurmur.

In comment 14700116 jcn56 said:

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Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names. Fast forward to 2019. Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names. Compare the names on the two lists - then let me know where you think the problem is.

Definitely not Gettleman. Agreed, jcn.

All the shit that's gone wrong, even the horrendous Gettleman, is a symptom.

The disease is the way ownership has structured the organization.

John Mara, this is on you.

on the current "best practice" for NFL organization? I realize the meddling owner is trouble, but is it combined GM/HC (Patriots) or still having a GM control personnel and the coach coaches? HC gets to pick his assistants, is that key? I hear a lot about what Giants do wrong, but what do good teams do?

And I have no-NO-confidence in this man doing the right thing.

from themselves

In comment 14700122 uther99 said:

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on the current "best practice" for NFL organization? I realize the meddling owner is trouble, but is it combined GM/HC (Patriots) or still having a GM control personnel and the coach coaches? HC gets to pick his assistants, is that key? I hear a lot about what Giants do wrong, but what do good teams do?

The GM picks the players and the coaches coach them is antiquated. GM & HC should be linked at the hip, not separate entities.

John Mara has sucked donkey at evaluating most of his front office decisions. Held on to Reese way to long, botched Coughlin, botched Mcadoo, botched Shurmur. There were the occasional things that worked out (like hiring Coughlin and forcing him replace Hufnagel and Tim Lewis when they weren't working out) and I don't think it's easy to find good NFL coaches, but there's no doubt he's done a poor job self scouting the problems within his own organization.

The next head coaching hire, the structure/process that leads to that decision, and the whether or not this organization turns things around is ultimately in John Mara's hands.

Except many successful NFL franchises still work within the same general model/framework as the Giants and it works. But let's not let reality interfere with a good false narrative.

Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing.

If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's
, for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.

In comment 14700120 Go Terps said:

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All the shit that's gone wrong, even the horrendous Gettleman, is a symptom. The disease is the way ownership has structured the organization. John Mara, this is on you.

More and more of the media needs to hammer this home. Along with the fact that his brother is over player personnel.

Look at the 3 worst teams in the NFL right now:

Cincinnati - Mike Brown is involved in personnel
NY Giants - John and Chris Mara are involved in personnel
Washington - Daniel F. Snyder is involved in personnel

Any questions?

How do you know this is "the truth"?

Is that part behind the firewall at The Athletic?

In comment 14700096 jcn56 said:

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bolded sentence is dead on. Shurmur's not a great coach - and neither is Bettcher. But they're both better than 2-10. The talent is a huge fucking problem.

Careful, many on BBI like the roster. Who cares that outside of Jones the talent on the team is at the least valuable positions.

DG is a bigger problem than Shurmur, and Shurmur is a total loser.

Mara needs to clean house and bring in a GM from the outside.

fire Shurmur & retain Gettleman.

Hey Johnny: do something drastic because something drastic needs to be done. Get out of your F'ing comfort box & think boldly.

In comment 14700114 Danny Kanell said:

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You really can't argue with any of it. Mara hired Accorsi as a "consultant" for the GM search and he "recommended" his old buddy Gettleman. Accorsi was on with Michael Kay last year and basically admitted he owed Gettleman a favor after Reese was hired. It's all a sham.

its funny because in 2012 when DG went to carolina people here were upset about it. now he's just some schlub who happened to have worked here years ago so Mara hired him? really?

In comment 14700096 jcn56 said:

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bolded sentence is dead on. Shurmur's not a great coach - and neither is Bettcher. But they're both better than 2-10. The talent is a huge fucking problem.

I've got to disagree with you. Both of them are terrible coaches and are lucky they're only 2-10 this year. They really should be 1-11.

I think with better coaching this team is talented enough to be better than the 2-10 their record is now. How many times are were they down 14 points or more in the 1st Qtr? That screams to me of a coaching/game planning problem.

Why did it take until this past Sunday for Jones to finally have two hands on the ball when dropping back to pass in order to help prevent his fumbling problem? That's coaching or a lack of IMO, and those previous fumbles helped contribute to the losing streak.

a) It's not that expensive, if you really want to see it stop being cheapos and pay for the damn subscription.

b) If you don't want to pay for the subscription, stop complaining and let people that pay for the subscription see it. You won't see it if it's posted or isn't.

who was coached by the QB Whisperer at Duke - can't keep two hands on the ball and that's squarely on Shurmur's shoulders.

I guess it's on Shurmur that Beal's been hurt (when the knock on him in college was, yes, injury) and that Baker doesn't give a shit half the team (another knock on his college scouting report).

You guys keep dreaming about how many imaginary wins this team would have if only big bad Shurmur wasn't holding them back.

Does Lombardi think the fans think this is a well oiled machine that just needs a driver to handle all the horse power?

Dont think anybody believes that. The coaching staff sucks and the roster sucks, of course we want both fixed.

It's not like Shurmur is just a poor scapegoat and it's not like hes the only reason for our failures. I think everyone realizes hes just simply a part of the problem, fortunately all of these problems are correctable with 1 good offseason. Easier said than done but we have the resources to do it.

And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days.

This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is.

it’s the people making the decisions aren’t getting it right. Two poor coaching hires in a row and a roster that had to be gutted and a ton of dead cap eaten just to be able to try to turn it around. Coaching staff absolutely needs to go. It’s hard to say who else needs to go making baseless assumptions. They need a Coughlin-like hire for the coaching staff and keep acquiring young talent. With some cap room and another high draft pick it’s a good set-up to do so. Whether or not Dave is doing it or some other new combination of people, just make good decisions and some luck would be nice.

DL and CB are the least important positions? Because that's where DG has focused. Maybe you're just another of the blind that can't see ability that's both inexperienced and ill coached and struggling.

fired Kelly. I don’t think the problem is a hierarchy including both a GM and HC. I think it’s all about picking the right ones, and then doing a good job of assessing the performance of your scouting department.

The biggest problem the Maras have had is their loyalty to people who haven’t done a good job or had a vision compatible with winning in the NFC East, where physicality is critical.

In comment 14700171 BillT said:

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And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days. This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is.

Reese left the team with more talent than it has now - as evidenced by their 11-5 record in 2016.

Gettleman made the decision to strip it bare and replace it with players to establish a different 'culture'. Apparently, that culture is a lot more laid back than you'd expect for football players, since it involves taking plays off and not holding the ball with two hands.

An objective viewer would see that a lot of the FO responsible for the draft misfires is still in the Giants employ, including the VP of Pro Personnel and all of the scouting department.

But hey, why would the VP of Personnel and an entire team of scouts *not* start suddenly performing better when an ex-FO member of theirs was promoted to GM?

Because of their ownership, and now look at them. Having a good coach makes a huge difference, as does having some high draft picks. And Shurmur is just a terrible head coach. This team has a huge problem with assignment football and that's all on Shurmur.

This obsession with the Mara's way of thinking being the key problem is a bit tiring. Yes, loyalty is a problem with this franchise and it always has been. But he's not going to sell the team. And the 49ers are proof that bad ownership doesn't doom a franchise.

The best hope is that the GM hires a good coach this time around.


Link - ( New Window )

LOL another can't see the forest for the tress poster.

In comment 14700184 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700171 BillT said: Quote: And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days. This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is. Reese left the team with more talent than it has now - as evidenced by their 11-5 record in 2016. Gettleman made the decision to strip it bare and replace it with players to establish a different 'culture'. Apparently, that culture is a lot more laid back than you'd expect for football players, since it involves taking plays off and not holding the ball with two hands. An objective viewer would see that a lot of the FO responsible for the draft misfires is still in the Giants employ, including the VP of Pro Personnel and all of the scouting department. But hey, why would the VP of Personnel and an entire team of scouts *not* start suddenly performing better when an ex-FO member of theirs was promoted to GM?

Did you forget about the year after (not to mention some years before) the 11-5? Were those teams more talented as well. You really want OBJ, Vernon, Snacks and Apple back. And I didn't say there weren't problems in fact I said the opposite. I just said it's not the problems Lombardi thinks.

In comment 14700196 Torrag said:

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LOL another can't see the forest for the tress poster.

LOL, sick burn, if you could only spell 'trees'.

fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him.

The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense.

Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go.

So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again.

In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG.

The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything.

The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.

In comment 14700139 Torrag said:

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Except many successful NFL franchises still work within the same general model/framework as the Giants and it works. But let's not let reality interfere with a good false narrative. Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing. If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's , for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.

Amen

If the positions where DG has invested the most and made his mark were performing adequately, I'd be fine with him giving him another year or two.

I do think he stripped this roster bare this year. Most of which I was fine with - Vernon, Beckham, Collins gone. I did not expect a good year. I thought 6-10 was optimistic.

The two things that have pushed me over the edge to wanting DG fired were: 1. The LW trade. I think his asset allocation has been atrocious since he got here it continues. 2. Seeing no improvement/growth from any of the players he selected.

The only thing I like that he's done is drafting Jones, and Jones is still TBD in many ways.

In comment 14700198 BillT said:

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Did you forget about the year after (not to mention some years before) the 11-5? Were those teams more talented as well. You really want OBJ, Vernon, Snacks and Apple back. And I didn't say there weren't problems in fact I said the opposite. I just said it's not the problems Lombardi thinks.

Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat.

The best offensive player on this team was selected 2nd overall and can't fall forward for two fucking yards this season. The 6th overall pick in this year's draft apparently needs a coach to tell him to hold the ball with both hands. There's not one bona fide pass rusher under contract for next season, and the idiot in charge just handed over two draft picks, one that will just be out of the 2nd round, for the right to overpay a DT draft bust that the Jets cut loose and didn't miss for a second.

Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse.

how they hire people. They need a full assessment of how everything is done, probably by someone outside the organization, with recommendations for an operating model that is current best-in-class.

For example, do the Giants have a metrics department, like a lot of other forward thinking sports organizations? I guarantee you the Patriots, Chiefs, and Eagles aren't picking players based on some scouts assessment like they did back in the 20s. They're using stats that predict the players most likely to succeed. They're also using stats to manage contract lengths and I'm sure a lot of other things we haven't thought of.

The Giants are (from what I can tell) operating from an old model and are not taking advantage of things other teams have been learing for years now. Time to tear it all down and hand the reins to a modern director of football operations.

In comment 14700184 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700171 BillT said: Quote: And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days. This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is. Reese left the team with more talent than it has now - as evidenced by their 11-5 record in 2016. Gettleman made the decision to strip it bare and replace it with players to establish a different 'culture'. Apparently, that culture is a lot more laid back than you'd expect for football players, since it involves taking plays off and not holding the ball with two hands. An objective viewer would see that a lot of the FO responsible for the draft misfires is still in the Giants employ, including the VP of Pro Personnel and all of the scouting department. But hey, why would the VP of Personnel and an entire team of scouts *not* start suddenly performing better when an ex-FO member of theirs was promoted to GM?

Holy Schnikees you actually wrote that?! hahaha Are you insane? REEEACH was the worst and built a team of mercenaries.

Quote:

He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree.

Where is this quality LT?

Though I don't know whether it's the "structure" or the people making decisions within it, to me it seems clear that when your organization crashes and burns like this, and seems to be getting worse instead of better almost 2 years into the rebuild, the problem is at a higher level than the coach or even the GM. Fire one, fire both, if the same structure and decision making above them is replacing them, the results are probably going to be the same.

John Mara and Steve Tisch have to do a thorough review of the whole organization, starting with themselves and extending through senior management, scouting, everything. They've built a mediocre stadium, alienated their fan base, put a putrid product on the field. If they had employees who performed this badly, this consistently, over this long a time, they'd fire those people. They need to think about "firing" themselves and putting someone else in charge.

In comment 14700204 Gettledogman said:

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fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him. The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense. Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go. So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again. In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG. The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything. The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.

Dave, finish your knish and get back to work. Nobody's buying this.

In comment 14700215 Gettledogman said:

Quote:

Holy Schnikees you actually wrote that?! hahaha Are you insane? REEEACH was the worst and built a team of mercenaries.

Reese built the rosters that won two titles. This guy won't ever have a winning record as Giants GM.

Pulling in the same direction.

The numerous 180s we’ve pulled in just two years and the resulting record indicates that’s not the case here

In comment 14700212 jcn56 said:

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Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat. Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse.

Well, if you think we were better off with Reese's teams and personnel decisions than now then you do.

In comment 14700209 BrettNYG10 said:

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If the positions where DG has invested the most and made his mark were performing adequately, I'd be fine with him giving him another year or two. I do think he stripped this roster bare this year. Most of which I was fine with - Vernon, Beckham, Collins gone. I did not expect a good year. I thought 6-10 was optimistic. The two things that have pushed me over the edge to wanting DG fired were: 1. The LW trade. I think his asset allocation has been atrocious since he got here it continues. 2. Seeing no improvement/growth from any of the players he selected. The only thing I like that he's done is drafting Jones, and Jones is still TBD in many ways.

Lets discuss the LW trade -its not what everyone thinks it is. My read on it is -Giants gets a free tryout for a 5th round pick. If LW signs Gmen lose 3rd and a 4th for a 1st round pick! but we also get the 3rd back for the CB or LBr leaving for greener pastures. If LW doesn't get signed and leaves Gmen get the 3rd back in comp. So the real cost is a 4th if he stays or 5th if he leaves. No fing brainer. That is the trade in a nutshell. It is a shot to really evaluate a player who could be a cornerstone player -evaluate whether he is a team player a good locker room guy -is he really worth the money? as there are many rumors about him -IT is SMAHT.

In comment 14700217 BrettNYG10 said:

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Quote: He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. Where is this quality LT?

He was best available -It aint like there were many other options at that time.

In comment 14700234 BillT said:

Quote:

In comment 14700212 jcn56 said: Quote: Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat. Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse. Well, if you think we were better off with Reese's teams and personnel decisions than now then you do.

The team was better. They played better, they won more. Look at McAdoo's record vs. Shurmur. It's not just because McAdoo was a better coach, he had more talent to work with.

Gettleman stripped it bare to rebuild it, and he stuffed the roster with garbage.

In comment 14700227 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700215 Gettledogman said: Quote: Holy Schnikees you actually wrote that?! hahaha Are you insane? REEEACH was the worst and built a team of mercenaries. Reese built the rosters that won two titles. This guy won't ever have a winning record as Giants GM.

No Accorsi and Gettleman did.. check it out.

Which they qualify for if he signs elsewhere for big money AND if the Giants decide to spend less than they lose in FA.

If the Giants sit on that much cap money, 2 wins might be next year's high water mark.

It spoke in the same generalities that fans speak in. There were absolutely no examples of how the Giants operations are antiquated or hold the Giants back. It just felt like throwing sh*t against the wall. Obviously, the Giants have been underperforming for a while, but what specifically has to change that the current GM hasn’t changed? Clearly, they should have torn everything down sooner. But that is over at this point.

In comment 14700246 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700234 BillT said: Quote: In comment 14700212 jcn56 said: Quote: Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat. Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse. Well, if you think we were better off with Reese's teams and personnel decisions than now then you do. The team was better. They played better, they won more. Look at McAdoo's record vs. Shurmur. It's not just because McAdoo was a better coach, he had more talent to work with. Gettleman stripped it bare to rebuild it, and he stuffed the roster with garbage.

I would disagree that "he stuffed the roster with garbage." I don't know how things will work out (nor do you) but the players they are counting on are very, very young. Plus, units like the OL, which were terrible under Resse as well, are still in need of more good players. There was far too much to do in two years. It could take twice that long to be respectable and even that wouldn't be a bad job.

In comment 14700144 Bill2 said:

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How do you know this is "the truth"? Is that part behind the firewall at The Athletic?

Firewall? Paywall I suspect.

He’s been terrible with draft and free agents and the cap and the coaching staff. What else is there? I don’t know about this organization model but Lombardi has been saying for while now that the Giants are where the 9ers were a few years back when ownership turned everything over and started a new. Now the 9ers have a shit ton of top draft picks making plays for a good coaching staff.

Trouble for us is that Getty has squandered top picks and later pcps now. (A RB at the 2 was never the right call and the jury is still out on DJ).

Anyway... Got to start by getting Getty out of the building. Get a new GM, and for gods sake don’t ask Ernie Accorsi to pick the GM.

Too bad neither one is around anymore.

In comment 14700245 Gettledogman said:

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In comment 14700217 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: Quote: He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. Where is this quality LT? He was best available -It aint like there were many other options at that time.

There it is...the no options excuse.

No options available other than creating the highest paid LT in the game that plays more like the 19th best left tackle a the time...and the 28th best tackle now.

Where do DG go to pick up his GM of the Year trophy?

In comment 14700220 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 14700204 Gettledogman said: Quote: fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him. The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense. Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go. So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again. In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG. The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything. The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog. Dave, finish your knish and get back to work. Nobody's buying this.

I stopped reading after he wrote face of the franchise at RB. Not one team needs a face of the franchise at the most replaceable position in the sport. Also, the oline is arguable worse now then when DG took over. Gelling dline? This the same Dline that got gashed by the Jets? You know the team that just got thrashed by the 0-11 Bengals. How about giving the immortal Mitch Trubisky a week to throw the ball? Either FMiC changed his name or DG learned how to use a computer.

.

The weaknesses of shurms game approach are exactly the same particular weaknesses that appeared to hamper macadoos game. Same effect on ol progress. Same flashes of goodness followed by sacks and fecklesss outs.

3rd and 8, same obvious vanilla pass protection, same short pass to the sticks , very easy to pass rush on and attack . 'the polite wco''

That's under Jerry Reese then under the Getts.

My guess - the Getts had nothing to do with the coach hire. He wants to smash face and run it obviously . Why would he draft a RB for this?

And there's plenty there that cant just conveniently be excused away.

He's taken big swings at OL in each year. None of them have panned out. Tried to addred Guard in free agency, failed. Traded for an established veteran. Middling results.

They consciously went into the 2019 football season with their best option at RT being a guy with a surgically repaired back and no depth at the position.

These are on his head. And that's just one position group.

We keep trying to make the task of taking over the team so large that it can excuse all the failings. That's the wrong view to evaluate a GM with.

Job One for him was offensive line. He came in talking about it, wouldn't stop talking about it, and threw a lot of money and resources at it for no gain. It's been one mis-evaluation after another.

but it's still bullshit,just higher quality

Also has a flashing neon sign next to it

I think his FA/trade decisions have been almost universally horrific, with the latest being the dumb trade for L. Williams.

I want to believe his forte is in college scouting and that maybe his drafts have been very good, but with this coaching staff how can anyone tell. Every damn player on the team appears to be playing worse than their talent level.

point being... while I would fire them both, I can see Mara's firing coaches and letting DG stick around another year or 2.

In comment 14700139 Torrag said:

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Except many successful NFL franchises still work within the same general model/framework as the Giants and it works. But let's not let reality interfere with a good false narrative. Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing. If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's , for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.

The only thing I take from that is that Marty Hurney handed over a much better team than Jerry Reese did.

because, as previously cited, he hung on to Reese and Ross too damn long and made two very bad HC hiring decisions.

That said, he owns the team and can do what he wants. If he gets lucky, he will find someone to bail him out. If not, this team will be the laughing stock of the NFL for years to come.

Except you miss the point which is organizational structures that win. The Giants and Panthers employ similar FO composition and hierarchy in the organization.

Read more carefully next time?

Eli would have probably made it to the playoffs at least 2-3 more times....

In comment 14700352 Red Dog said:

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because, as previously cited, he hung on to Reese and Ross too damn long and made two very bad HC hiring decisions. That said, he owns the team and can do what he wants. If he gets lucky, he will find someone to bail him out. If not, this team will be the laughing stock of the NFL for years to come.

Even funnier! Gettleman replaces a bunch of guys with garbage, and naturally, it's Reese's fault.

I wonder if Reese has been secretly greasing Barkley's shoes and is responsible for his inability to run effectively.

In comment 14700139 Torrag said:

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Except many successful NFL franchises still work within the same general model/framework as the Giants and it works. But let's not let reality interfere with a good false narrative. Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing. If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's , for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.

so many here give Reese a pass for his blowing the draft since 2012 and putting this team in the hell that it is today..

Blaming DG for everything is popular here, but the effing team was trash in 2013.. DG will be judged by his work in the 2020 season... Murmur was a poor hire, but again, he was hot ticket in 2018 so you get the hire..

he and his staff have not improved this season at aall despite gettign everything they wanted, thats on them

In comment 14700204 Gettledogman said:

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fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him. The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense. Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go. So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again. In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG. The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything. The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.

Ok good, somebody else thinks like me. Great post.

wasn't he a really successful GM and VP of operations himself?

Since you all agree with his assessment?

In comment 14700508 Britt in VA said:

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Since you all agree with his assessment?

Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM.

It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple

In comment 14700508 Britt in VA said:

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Since you all agree with his assessment?

Yup. He’d need the right coach. Like McDaniels.

In comment 14700297 idiotsavant said:

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The weaknesses of shurms game approach are exactly the same particular weaknesses that appeared to hamper macadoos game. Same effect on ol progress. Same flashes of goodness followed by sacks and fecklesss outs. 3rd and 8, same obvious vanilla pass protection, same short pass to the sticks , very easy to pass rush on and attack . 'the polite wco'' That's under Jerry Reese then under the Getts. My guess - the Getts had nothing to do with the coach hire. He wants to smash face and run it obviously . Why would he draft a RB for this?

You're literally just making things up to defend a senile, terrible GM

In comment 14700504 Britt in VA said:

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wasn't he a really successful GM and VP of operations himself?

His Oakland teams went to three AFC title games and a Super Bowl. Belichick's called him one of the smartest people he's ever worked with.

For all the shit Gettleman talks, Lombardi's had more success.

In comment 14700517 MookGiants said:

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In comment 14700508 Britt in VA said: Quote: Since you all agree with his assessment? Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM. It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple

its not just the roster, its the wasting of assets (Sam Beal, RB at 2, Lauletta in the 4th, Leonard Williams, a DT at 17, trading up for Baker), refusal to trade down when the team has 900 holes, and refusal to be realistic about what this team has been for 3 year (garbage). And signing Golden Tate and giving the Eagles a comp pick is just infuriating. He has had tremendous opportunity to rebuild the franchise and he's squandered it.

But I agree with many here that this talk of diseases and the structure being fucked up or whatever else is a stretch. The giants need a great HC. Every bad sports franchise in history stayed bad until the right leader came along. That’s us. Again.

The roster sure as fuck isn’t great but the lack of leadership and game by game direction is the number one priority right now. Start there.

Chapter 27 in Dave Gettleman's "Blaming the Last Guy: How to Keep Losing and Pin it on Ghosts."

Hire from the outside when TC was let go. The "Giant's Way" has become a losing way and half assed measures. Well when you half ass the process you get half ass results. This Org needs a complete overhaul from someone with no strings attached to the Mara family

Duggan's article on the Athletic yesterday about covering a losing team was pretty amusing.

And W/R/T the sub price, I wouldn't pay full price for it but they have sale prices often enough to make it worth it. Last year I paid $35 for the year and this year $30.

tab that educates the people who post here about the real Super Bowl era Giants history.

Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL.

Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara.

Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become.

After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore.

The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate.

That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired.

Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI.

So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play.

The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy.

Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight.

What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen?
Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )

In comment 14700573 Justlurking said:

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In comment 14700517 MookGiants said: Quote: In comment 14700508 Britt in VA said: Quote: Since you all agree with his assessment? Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM. It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple its not just the roster, its the wasting of assets (Sam Beal, RB at 2, Lauletta in the 4th, Leonard Williams, a DT at 17, trading up for Baker), refusal to trade down when the team has 900 holes, and refusal to be realistic about what this team has been for 3 year (garbage). And signing Golden Tate and giving the Eagles a comp pick is just infuriating. He has had tremendous opportunity to rebuild the franchise and he's squandered it.

Agreed. You could have even given him a pass about the 2018 draft if he went into draft pick acquisition mode. Instead he did the opposite with the Williams trade and trading up for Baker.

In comment 14700644 arniefez said:

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tab that educates the people who post here about the real Super Bowl era Giants history. Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara. Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become. After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore. The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate. That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired. Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI. So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play. The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy. Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight. What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen? Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )

Nice post and link. Thanks.

on a team then they are getting credit for. The coaching staff can make winners out of average players.

Seubert, Shaun O'Hara, David Diehl. Were these guys great athletes with multiple Pro Bowl selections.

Solder was the 17th overall pick and 2nd tackle chosen in the 2011 draft. Flowers was the 9th overall pick in the 2015 draft. Diehl was a fifth round pick who made the Pro Bowl once as a replacement. No one ever called him very athletic. But Diehl was good enough to play left tackle through two undefeated playoff runs.

I submit that David Diehl on this team with this coach would be just as inadequate as Solders and Flowers. Send him back to Bill in New England and he'd play just as well as Solder did over there.

In comment 14700192 RobCarpenter said:

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Because of their ownership, and now look at them. Having a good coach makes a huge difference, as does having some high draft picks. And Shurmur is just a terrible head coach. This team has a huge problem with assignment football and that's all on Shurmur. This obsession with the Mara's way of thinking being the key problem is a bit tiring. Yes, loyalty is a problem with this franchise and it always has been. But he's not going to sell the team. And the 49ers are proof that bad ownership doesn't doom a franchise. The best hope is that the GM hires a good coach this time around. Link - ( New Window )

The 49ers are actually an example of the 'modern' structure. They hired the coach and the coach hired a GM he could rely on to source talent specifically within the parameters of the coaches needs. I wouldn't say Lynch is a yes man for Shanahan but if a decision is disputed there there's only one guy making the final call and it's not Lynch.

Here we have Gettleman and his well stated preferences and biases in talent evaluation. For example if we had hired Shanahan I'm not sure how Gettleman's for large linemen would have worked with Shanahan's zone blocking scheme which favors mobility (the 49ers have one of the lightest olines in the NFL)

In comment 14700356 nzyme said:

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Eli would have probably made it to the playoffs at least 2-3 more times....

Nonsense, based on what? His magical transformation of this O-line from dysfunctional to disastrous, nice job, Getts! Or his transformation of a 3-13 team into a...3-13 team, YAy!!!

In comment 14700767 bigbluescot said:

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The 49ers are actually an example of the 'modern' structure. They hired the coach and the coach hired a GM he could rely on to source talent specifically within the parameters of the coaches needs. I wouldn't say Lynch is a yes man for Shanahan but if a decision is disputed there there's only one guy making the final call and it's not Lynch. Here we have Gettleman and his well stated preferences and biases in talent evaluation. For example if we had hired Shanahan I'm not sure how Gettleman's for large linemen would have worked with Shanahan's zone blocking scheme which favors mobility (the 49ers have one of the lightest olines in the NFL)

That's a good point - the 49ers owners essentially "fired" themselves, taking a back seat and handing over the reigns to Lynch and Shanahan. They also put them on the same timeline - so sink or swim, they do it together.

Shurmur was almost destined to failure. He wasn't that great a coach to begin with, he entered a FO that had a long established relationship with preconceived notions of what they wanted to do. I even wonder if the OC was his choice or if Shula was chosen for him, which might be relevant to his decision not to hand over the playcalling responsibilities. I seriously doubt he was winning any power struggles over personnel decisions.

but I refuse to write this roster off just yet. We've got a shit ton of 1st and 2nd year players, and you simply cannot continuously revamp a roster this young and inexperienced. Fire the HC and staff if you must, but bring in someone who's going to teach proper fundamentals and techniques, and coordinators who can scheme to their strengths, not the other way around.

and I believe he also went after Schwartz and failed to get him - so he had some level of input into his coordinators. If we look at non-personnel related areas it's hard to envision anything worse than this year (clock management, unimaginative and non-aggressive playcalling, getting caught with mismatched personnel on the field, poor challenges, penalties that give other teams first downs, letting players who make mistakes play with minimal accountability for those mistakes, etc).

I don't know how his performance could be more clearly pathetic than to view it in comparison to what Miami is doing with a first year coach after fielding perhaps the worst roster of players in the last decade (their entire OL was practically practice squaders a year ago), and to see Shurmur's group get thoroughly outclassed during this losing streak by teams who are just as talent deficient with either first or second year coaches (Jets, Lions, Cardinals).

I was hopeful that in his second stint as a head coach Shurmur could build a staff that supports his weaknesses and throughout year 1 thought he was at minimum the best offensive playcaller we'd had in a couple of decades (not a high bar). This year he has regressed in almost every imaginable way and even with all new players his defensive coordinator has a non-competitive unit. Look no further than what Gregg Williams is doing in year 1 with many of his best players injured to see again the difference coaching can make.

I don't think the team has quit on Shurmur but they clearly have lost any belief in him being the guy to lead them successfully, and it's impossible to argue that assessment.

with the Giants. He decided Leonard Williams had to go. The Giants decided to trade picks to sign him to a flailing team mid-season when they could have had him at the end of the year without trading.

Good decisions vs. bad decisions, this team isn't only limited by it's coaching.

that doesn't immediately make him a bad player. Tag him for a year and see what he looks like under the next DC, and if he's not a difference maker let him walk and recoup a comp pick similar to 1 of the picks given up. The impact of that trade has been largely over dramatized.

In comment 14700276 trueblueinpw said:

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He’s been terrible with draft and free agents and the cap and the coaching staff. What else is there? I don’t know about this organization model but Lombardi has been saying for while now that the Giants are where the 9ers were a few years back when ownership turned everything over and started a new. Now the 9ers have a shit ton of top draft picks making plays for a good coaching staff. Trouble for us is that Getty has squandered top picks and later pcps now. (A RB at the 2 was never the right call and the jury is still out on DJ). Anyway... Got to start by getting Getty out of the building. Get a new GM, and for gods sake don’t ask Ernie Accorsi to pick the GM.

Agree 100%.

In comment 14701043 Eric on Li said:

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that doesn't immediately make him a bad player. Tag him for a year and see what he looks like under the next DC, and if he's not a difference maker let him walk and recoup a comp pick similar to 1 of the picks given up. The impact of that trade has been largely over dramatized.

Tag the Jets draft bust for a year.

Yeah, that makes sense. Just like giving up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to apply the tag to him.

The impact of that trade, of throwing away FA money on guys who can't play - they all add up to 2-10. They're not being dramatized, the Giants are a fucking tragedy.

The Giants repeated the mistake of the Ogletree trade - trading much needed assets to pay a solid player market value.

It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.

In comment 14701043 Eric on Li said:

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that doesn't immediately make him a bad player. Tag him for a year and see what he looks like under the next DC, and if he's not a difference maker let him walk and recoup a comp pick similar to 1 of the picks given up. The impact of that trade has been largely over dramatized.

I think it's been under dramatized. Teams heading for lousy records basically never make this type of move. There are many reasons for that.

In comment 14701076 BrettNYG10 said:

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The Giants repeated the mistake of the Ogletree trade - trading much needed assets to pay a solid player market value. It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.

Yeah This is a stupid take -DG is the one who ran pro personnel for Giants -signed Mackenze, Ohara, AP, Plax, Hedgecock, should we keep going on?

In comment 14701407 Gettledogman said:

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In comment 14701076 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: The Giants repeated the mistake of the Ogletree trade - trading much needed assets to pay a solid player market value. It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation. Yeah This is a stupid take -DG is the one who ran pro personnel for Giants -signed Mackenze, Ohara, AP, Plax, Hedgecock, should we keep going on?

Right, and he wasn't in charge of asset allocation - thanks for agreeing.

In comment 14701065 jcn56 said:

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In comment 14701043 Eric on Li said: Quote: that doesn't immediately make him a bad player. Tag him for a year and see what he looks like under the next DC, and if he's not a difference maker let him walk and recoup a comp pick similar to 1 of the picks given up. The impact of that trade has been largely over dramatized. Tag the Jets draft bust for a year. Yeah, that makes sense. Just like giving up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to apply the tag to him. The impact of that trade, of throwing away FA money on guys who can't play - they all add up to 2-10. They're not being dramatized, the Giants are a fucking tragedy.

Just because a guy doesn't become an all pro doesn't mean he's a bust - unlike Eli Apple or Flowers by all accounts he's a good guy and at minimum a solid starter who is very good against the run. I haven't seen anyone credibly state the guy is not at least a starting level player or a liability - as guys like Flowers and Apple again obviously were here.

Solid players whose draft pedigrees suggest they may still have some upside, in their mid-20's, and with a history of good health, are the exact type of FA profile I'd be looking for. When we let Linval Joseph and his 9 career sacks and 0 pro bowl appearances walk at age 25 he fit that exact profile. He's since started 85 games for Minnesota and anchored 1 of the better defenses in football over that period of time. And his career high is still 4 sacks.

I just don't view that as some franchise crippling risk unless they give him a big long term deal (which is why I'd tag him and see what we have for a full year before signing long term unless it's a very fair deal). Even if he has a poor year they'd probably still be able to recoup a comp pick by letting him walk in 2021 and unlike Ogletree there'd be no dead cap.

Williams is a good player. A strong DL with some pass rush and good run stopping. He was expected to be a star. That he is not and he's going to get over paid as a FA. He is not worth giving up a top 70 pick and that contract but he's miles better than Ogletree when Gettleman took that contract.

But he's not good enough to justify the level of investment in him, particularly considering the fact that Lawrence was already the best player on the defense and Hill was supposedly one of Gettleman's draft gems.

In comment 14701609 Greg from LI said:

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But he's not good enough to justify the level of investment in him, particularly considering the fact that Lawrence was already the best player on the defense and Hill was supposedly one of Gettleman's draft gems.

100% - spending assets on good, not great players and needing to spend market rates to keep them for a team not sniffing contention is so dumb.

a 1 year deal at the $15m DT tag in a year where we project to have have more cap room than we can spend (80m+) is not an overly significant investment IMO - which is why that's what I'd do for next year (especially with a new coaching staff/scheme likely). That investment is certainly lower and a lot less risky than a potential 4 year/50m+ deal whether it's for LW or a comparable player in UFA.

and if he resigns for a reasonable amount then we are talking about a 3rd and a 4th for a solid but unspectacular player. Which doesn't seem so out of balance to me given we aren't overflowing with solid players and we know the investment level paid was far below that paid for top level players his same age / draft pedigree (Ramsey, Tunsil, Mack, OBJ, etc). Yes he'd be a lot more expensive than a typical 3rd like BJ Hill, but he's also a better player from what i've seen.

And as far as BJ Hill goes he's definitely regressed and looking JAG'y but just the fact that he was good enough to make a few all rookie teams probably skews him closer towards a good outcome of a 3rd round pick than bad. As we are all too well aware more 3rd rounders probably never even see meaningful playing time than do. Or at least most of ours haven't in the last 3+ decades.

$15 million dollar "flyers" on tagged veterans. Spending cap room like a drunken sailor is how they've blown the cap the last two years.

saying more Markus Goldens is fine, but even if they could find more, he made $3.75m this year. That amount of cap space would accommodate 21 Markus Golden's. Giving LW $15m brings that number down to being able to sign 17 Markus Golden's.

I actually think going almost entirely with 1 year deals is a decent strategy - LW on a tag included. That keeps maximum future flexibility to resign players who prove they are worth it (as Markus Golden may have done this year). I wouldn't be opposed to targeting 1 or 2 guys on bigger multi-year deals as well like a Shaq Thompson or an OL, but I fail to see where having $65m free vs. $80m will preclude them from anything.

I believe either scenario is still more space than they had when they got drunk in March 2016 and miraculously signed 3 of the top 8 highest paid FA that offseason.

We are about the middle of the pack in available cap space. So the amount is relative. I could easily see us missing out on guys some around here pegged as good fits...

when discussing David Tepper's success as a business leader. Let's see how his 'now' restructuring of the Panthers' leadership team goes and how fairly Mike from Jersey evaluates it for us.

In comment 14701794 Eric on Li said:

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saying more Markus Goldens is fine, but even if they could find more, he made $3.75m this year. That amount of cap space would accommodate 21 Markus Golden's. Giving LW $15m brings that number down to being able to sign 17 Markus Golden's. I actually think going almost entirely with 1 year deals is a decent strategy - LW on a tag included. That keeps maximum future flexibility to resign players who prove they are worth it (as Markus Golden may have done this year). I wouldn't be opposed to targeting 1 or 2 guys on bigger multi-year deals as well like a Shaq Thompson or an OL, but I fail to see where having $65m free vs. $80m will preclude them from anything. I believe either scenario is still more space than they had when they got drunk in March 2016 and miraculously signed 3 of the top 8 highest paid FA that offseason.

Neither you nor I can predict with any accuracy who will be available or when at this point. Again, this team needs players at almost every position. Markus Golden was a discounted player coming back from injury looking to play a year cheap to build his value. Whatever they paid him isn't actually representative of the cost of adding healthy, effective players who are going to improve the state of the team. You don't want to rely on guys coming off big injuries.

And even if you don't spend it all, you CAN carry a percentage of your cap saved over to the next year. You don't have to burn it all.

In comment 14701799 bw in dc said:

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We are about the middle of the pack in available cap space. So the amount is relative. I could easily see us missing out on guys some around here pegged as good fits...

I tend to agree - I saw a list of the top 25 FA and most of the top 20 was projected to get resigned or tagged (including most BBI favorites like Yannick Ngakwe).

Separately, this is a pretty interesting chart from OTC that lays out which teams will be spenders and which won't based on available cap room + guys their need to resign. I don't believe it factors in guys who are likely to be cut (which should make our position look even more favorable).



Carolina in particular is not in good shape, so the best FA I could realistically see us landing is 1 of Shaq Thompson or James Bradberry. Both are guys who I think would be good signings.

In comment 14701811 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Neither you nor I can predict with any accuracy who will be available or when at this point. Again, this team needs players at almost every position. Markus Golden was a discounted player coming back from injury looking to play a year cheap to build his value. Whatever they paid him isn't actually representative of the cost of adding healthy, effective players who are going to improve the state of the team. You don't want to rely on guys coming off big injuries. And even if you don't spend it all, you CAN carry a percentage of your cap saved over to the next year. You don't have to burn it all.

On all of the above we agree and especially the bolded part - which is why I don't have an issue securing LW's rights right now. He's a healthy, performing asset, albeit not coming off a peak year (but again we also aren't paying a peak price - off his pro bowl second year acquiring him would have probably cost 2 firsts). They clearly view him as a potential core piece, and those are not easy to find in FA even if they aren't gamebreakers. For every great Markus Golden/Shaq Thompson there are 10 Deone Buchanon/Daryl Williams who end up cut a year later.

At the end of the day it will come down to their evaluation of him - if he's a good player going forward who starts 85 games here like Linval Joseph has in Minnesota, it will be viewed as a good move - even if he never quite lives up to the draft hype. If they overpay pay him and he disappoints he will be Ogletree 2.0. I can't tell you which he'll be because I haven't seen him enough but I don't mind the gamble. And I don't think we are "over a barrel" to resign him since we can tag him.

mentioned on twitter today that he feels a lot of the players don’t fit the scheme in which James Bettcher is running.

This has been going on for years & it’s because the GM/HC are 2 separate entities. It was an issue with Coughlin/Reese and still present today.

We’ve got Pat Shurmur as coach with an OC who was clearly a Gettleman pick.

We are all over the place.

That's an interesting graph. I don't see that as depicting the Giants in an advantageous position. It seems to me it's more important to be far along the X-axis than the Y.

In comment 14701919 Go Terps said:

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That's an interesting graph. I don't see that as depicting the Giants in an advantageous position. It seems to me it's more important to be far along the X-axis than the Y.

I read it as you want to be in the top left quadrant (Colts and Dolphins in the best position). The Y axis is cap space (which is why it goes negative while the X axis doesn't). The higher up towards the top you are, the more cap room you have. We are slotted at $65m which is what we've seen reported.

The X axis is the OTC valuation of that team's UFA's. So the more good UFA's you have, the further to the right of the chart you are - like the Cowboys with Dak and Cooper leading the way of guys they need to resign.

We appear to be 1 of 6 teams in that top left quadrant projecting to have more cap room than players to resign. We also have room to further improve by cutting guys. Not sure we rate compared to others in terms of "room to be gained via cuts".

But wouldn't you want to be a team with good UFA's? If you don't sign them, you recoup comp picks...it's a market inefficiency the Pats have been exploiting for years.

The Dolphins have a lot of cap space, sure...but signing high-priced UFAs is not how you build the foundation for a good team. Miami has no players and a bunch of cash. Conversely, Dallas has a lot of players and a bunch of cash. They have the option of paying Dak and/or Cooper. Good players. New England has a bunch of players that are all going to walk and be overpaid somewhere else (like Trey Flowers and Trent Brown were last year).

I don't see the Giants in an advantageous position here.

I don't think the Cowboys consider it a good thing that they could lose Dak or Cooper. If they were able to recycle players the way the Pats do, maybe, but I don't think any other franchises have shown that they can do what the Pats do. Maybe Seattle/Philly to an extent, but they both utilize FA too.

The positive for the giants is that they enter this offseason with a clear cap and most of the core of the roster under contract on their first contract. The best utilization of that cap room is up for discussion but they have it and that's better than not having it.

did you suggest Leonard Williams would command two firsts if he was acquired after a year like his sole Pro Bowl season?

You know Khalil Mack basically went for 2 firsts, right?

In comment 14702126 jcn56 said:

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did you suggest Leonard Williams would command two firsts if he was acquired after a year like his sole Pro Bowl season? You know Khalil Mack basically went for 2 firsts, right?

I think I said if he'd been traded at his peak which is admittedly a highly improbable hypothetical - rarely are second year players drafted 6th overall, off a pro bowl with 3 years of control left on his first contract up for sale. The best currently aged DL comparables I could think of from the 2018 draft would be Daron Payne, Vita Vea, or Bradley Chubb. I think any of them would return what Minkah Fitzpatrick returned and it's conceivable all could still return more than that even with Chubb's injury. I know Vea in particular has been coming on this year.

In his second season - with 3 years of cost control ahead of him, he'd have been worth a lot more. Especially in light of the fact that you wouldn't know at that point that he'd never hit or surpass that year's sack total, and that his overall play would decline year over year.

In comment 14702136 jcn56 said:

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In his second season - with 3 years of cost control ahead of him, he'd have been worth a lot more. Especially in light of the fact that you wouldn't know at that point that he'd never hit or surpass that year's sack total, and that his overall play would decline year over year.

Correct - had things gone the same way there's no doubt whoever made that purchase would probably have some buyers remorse. But to buy low on anything previously high there's going to have been some non-ideal results along the way.

Maybe Williams just is what he is - a solid run plugger who gets some QB hits. Or maybe he is closer than anyone realizes to step his game up a little bit like both Smiths did after signing in GB this past season. For a 3rd + 4th round pick I think that's a decent gamble. Instead of risking a mega deal via UFA (which was far from a known outcome) we can tag him (twice if we want) for a motivated contract year. If it doesn't work out let him walk and recoup 1 of the picks. 0 dead money long term. Hopefully their eval on him is right and he ends up as good as Joseph worked out for Minnesota. Williams seems somewhat comparable to what Joseph was when Reese let him walk.

In comment 14701851 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 14701799 bw in dc said: Quote: We are about the middle of the pack in available cap space. So the amount is relative. I could easily see us missing out on guys some around here pegged as good fits... I tend to agree - I saw a list of the top 25 FA and most of the top 20 was projected to get resigned or tagged (including most BBI favorites like Yannick Ngakwe). Separately, this is a pretty interesting chart from OTC that lays out which teams will be spenders and which won't based on available cap room + guys their need to resign. I don't believe it factors in guys who are likely to be cut (which should make our position look even more favorable). Carolina in particular is not in good shape, so the best FA I could realistically see us landing is 1 of Shaq Thompson or James Bradberry. Both are guys who I think would be good signings.

This chart can't be accurate. How is the infallible TC running the Jaguars into the ground with the cap for a second time?

The core of the Giants roster stinks.

We can talk about cap space all we want. Anything the Giants build will be on sand. Lol p

Didn't mean to type the lol. Guess my phone finds the state of the Giants funny.

Those are the guys who should be in their 3rd, 4th, 5th years getting ready for their second contracts. That should be the core the way Byron Jones, Dak, Jaylon Smith, Zeke, etc. are a big chunk of the core of the Cowboys. Look at all the best rosters right now and this is an obvious fact. The Seahawks drafted Lockett, Carson, Griffin, Jarran Reed, Frank Clark, and a few other starters over those 3 years. The 49ers added Armstead, Buckner, Kittle, Tartt, DJ Jones, etc.

From our drafts those 3 years only Shepard has a 2nd contract here and he's been hurt most of the year. The only others who got multi-year 2nd contracts are Collins and Bobby Hart, though Flowers and Apple are at least still kind of starters. Tomlinson and Engram still have a chance. That's it and that is the biggest problem with this team and roster right now.

But all of that is well documented and it's why Jerry Reese and Marc Ross got fired. Complaints about "the core" is either willful ignorance of those poor results or agenda driven.

The young core from the past 2 drafts (Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Connelly, Hernandez, Slayton) is already a lot more promising than those previous 3, though it's certainly still early especially for the 2019 picks.

In comment 14702458 Eric on Li said:

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Those are the guys who should be in their 3rd, 4th, 5th years getting ready for their second contracts. That should be the core the way Byron Jones, Dak, Jaylon Smith, Zeke, etc. are a big chunk of the core of the Cowboys. Look at all the best rosters right now and this is an obvious fact. The Seahawks drafted Lockett, Carson, Griffin, Jarran Reed, Frank Clark, and a few other starters over those 3 years. The 49ers added Armstead, Buckner, Kittle, Tartt, DJ Jones, etc. From our drafts those 3 years only Shepard has a 2nd contract here and he's been hurt most of the year. The only others who got multi-year 2nd contracts are Collins and Bobby Hart, though Flowers and Apple are at least still kind of starters. Tomlinson and Engram still have a chance. That's it and that is the biggest problem with this team and roster right now. But all of that is well documented and it's why Jerry Reese and Marc Ross got fired. Complaints about "the core" is either willful ignorance of those poor results or agenda driven. The young core from the past 2 drafts (Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Connelly, Hernandez, Slayton) is already a lot more promising than those previous 3, though it's certainly still early especially for the 2019 picks.

If the Giants are so bereft of talent in the core (and I agree with you that they are), why don't they have more cap room going into 2020, especially with a franchise QB coming off the books? It's not Reese, at least not very much - most of his players have already been purged, hence the lack of a talented core.

and that's before cutting anyone else.

In comment 14702484 Eric on Li said:

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and that's before cutting anyone else.

I think you might be leaving out carryover cap space. OTC linked below. The Giants are 6th lowest in committed cap spend for 2020, but aren't carrying over much cap room compared to other teams near the top of the list.

Link - ( New Window )

on the salary cap is "2020 FA valuations vs. 2020 estimated cap space"

Emphasis added on the 'estimated cap space' because I take that at face value, that they have estimated all the inputs that go into estimating total cap space based on who is currently on the roster.