Lombardi skewers Giants, speaks the truth on The Athletic

bolded sentence is dead on. Shurmur's not a great coach - and neither is Bettcher. But they're both better than 2-10. The talent is a huge fucking problem.

note to OP: we can't read it.

its not a whole article, he gave you the information on the Giants. Rest of the article is around the league news

firing only shurmur and the coaching staff won't lead to any real change. Burn it down and build it back up from scratch.

Coach is an issue.

The formula NYG is using to manage is a legit structure implemented by man teams. But, the people hired may not be performing

You really can't argue with any of it. Mara hired Accorsi as a "consultant" for the GM search and he "recommended" his old buddy Gettleman. Accorsi was on with Michael Kay last year and basically admitted he owed Gettleman a favor after Reese was hired. It's all a sham.

"but more tragically, Giants fans might have lost all hope that John Mara will fix the immense old-school problems that linger throughout the Giants’ organization."

Interestingly enough, my life is fine without the Giants. If this Sunday was any indication, not caring about the NY Giants is better than caring about them. Until that changes I will spend my time and discretionary income elsewhere. You should too, it might get fixed faster.

Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names.

Fast forward to 2019. Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names.

Compare the names on the two lists - then let me know where you think the problem is.

Gettleman is doing a superb job assembling elite talent and is being crushed by Shurmur.

In comment 14700116 jcn56 said:

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Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names. Fast forward to 2019. Look at the results, look at the front office. Take down all the names. Compare the names on the two lists - then let me know where you think the problem is.

Definitely not Gettleman. Agreed, jcn.

All the shit that's gone wrong, even the horrendous Gettleman, is a symptom.

The disease is the way ownership has structured the organization.

John Mara, this is on you.

on the current "best practice" for NFL organization? I realize the meddling owner is trouble, but is it combined GM/HC (Patriots) or still having a GM control personnel and the coach coaches? HC gets to pick his assistants, is that key? I hear a lot about what Giants do wrong, but what do good teams do?

And I have no-NO-confidence in this man doing the right thing.

from themselves

In comment 14700122 uther99 said:

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on the current "best practice" for NFL organization? I realize the meddling owner is trouble, but is it combined GM/HC (Patriots) or still having a GM control personnel and the coach coaches? HC gets to pick his assistants, is that key? I hear a lot about what Giants do wrong, but what do good teams do?

The GM picks the players and the coaches coach them is antiquated. GM & HC should be linked at the hip, not separate entities.

John Mara has sucked donkey at evaluating most of his front office decisions. Held on to Reese way to long, botched Coughlin, botched Mcadoo, botched Shurmur. There were the occasional things that worked out (like hiring Coughlin and forcing him replace Hufnagel and Tim Lewis when they weren't working out) and I don't think it's easy to find good NFL coaches, but there's no doubt he's done a poor job self scouting the problems within his own organization.

The next head coaching hire, the structure/process that leads to that decision, and the whether or not this organization turns things around is ultimately in John Mara's hands.

Except many successful NFL franchises still work within the same general model/framework as the Giants and it works. But let's not let reality interfere with a good false narrative.

Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing.

If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's
, for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.

In comment 14700120 Go Terps said:

Quote:

All the shit that's gone wrong, even the horrendous Gettleman, is a symptom. The disease is the way ownership has structured the organization. John Mara, this is on you.

More and more of the media needs to hammer this home. Along with the fact that his brother is over player personnel.

Look at the 3 worst teams in the NFL right now:

Cincinnati - Mike Brown is involved in personnel
NY Giants - John and Chris Mara are involved in personnel
Washington - Daniel F. Snyder is involved in personnel

Any questions?

How do you know this is "the truth"?

Is that part behind the firewall at The Athletic?

In comment 14700096 jcn56 said:

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bolded sentence is dead on. Shurmur's not a great coach - and neither is Bettcher. But they're both better than 2-10. The talent is a huge fucking problem.

Careful, many on BBI like the roster. Who cares that outside of Jones the talent on the team is at the least valuable positions.

DG is a bigger problem than Shurmur, and Shurmur is a total loser.

Mara needs to clean house and bring in a GM from the outside.

fire Shurmur & retain Gettleman.

Hey Johnny: do something drastic because something drastic needs to be done. Get out of your F'ing comfort box & think boldly.

In comment 14700114 Danny Kanell said:

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You really can't argue with any of it. Mara hired Accorsi as a "consultant" for the GM search and he "recommended" his old buddy Gettleman. Accorsi was on with Michael Kay last year and basically admitted he owed Gettleman a favor after Reese was hired. It's all a sham.

its funny because in 2012 when DG went to carolina people here were upset about it. now he's just some schlub who happened to have worked here years ago so Mara hired him? really?

In comment 14700096 jcn56 said:

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bolded sentence is dead on. Shurmur's not a great coach - and neither is Bettcher. But they're both better than 2-10. The talent is a huge fucking problem.

I've got to disagree with you. Both of them are terrible coaches and are lucky they're only 2-10 this year. They really should be 1-11.

I think with better coaching this team is talented enough to be better than the 2-10 their record is now. How many times are were they down 14 points or more in the 1st Qtr? That screams to me of a coaching/game planning problem.

Why did it take until this past Sunday for Jones to finally have two hands on the ball when dropping back to pass in order to help prevent his fumbling problem? That's coaching or a lack of IMO, and those previous fumbles helped contribute to the losing streak.

a) It's not that expensive, if you really want to see it stop being cheapos and pay for the damn subscription.

b) If you don't want to pay for the subscription, stop complaining and let people that pay for the subscription see it. You won't see it if it's posted or isn't.

who was coached by the QB Whisperer at Duke - can't keep two hands on the ball and that's squarely on Shurmur's shoulders.

I guess it's on Shurmur that Beal's been hurt (when the knock on him in college was, yes, injury) and that Baker doesn't give a shit half the team (another knock on his college scouting report).

You guys keep dreaming about how many imaginary wins this team would have if only big bad Shurmur wasn't holding them back.

Does Lombardi think the fans think this is a well oiled machine that just needs a driver to handle all the horse power?

Dont think anybody believes that. The coaching staff sucks and the roster sucks, of course we want both fixed.

It's not like Shurmur is just a poor scapegoat and it's not like hes the only reason for our failures. I think everyone realizes hes just simply a part of the problem, fortunately all of these problems are correctable with 1 good offseason. Easier said than done but we have the resources to do it.

And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days.

This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is.

it’s the people making the decisions aren’t getting it right. Two poor coaching hires in a row and a roster that had to be gutted and a ton of dead cap eaten just to be able to try to turn it around. Coaching staff absolutely needs to go. It’s hard to say who else needs to go making baseless assumptions. They need a Coughlin-like hire for the coaching staff and keep acquiring young talent. With some cap room and another high draft pick it’s a good set-up to do so. Whether or not Dave is doing it or some other new combination of people, just make good decisions and some luck would be nice.

DL and CB are the least important positions? Because that's where DG has focused. Maybe you're just another of the blind that can't see ability that's both inexperienced and ill coached and struggling.

fired Kelly. I don’t think the problem is a hierarchy including both a GM and HC. I think it’s all about picking the right ones, and then doing a good job of assessing the performance of your scouting department.

The biggest problem the Maras have had is their loyalty to people who haven’t done a good job or had a vision compatible with winning in the NFC East, where physicality is critical.

In comment 14700171 BillT said:

Quote:

And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days. This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is.

Reese left the team with more talent than it has now - as evidenced by their 11-5 record in 2016.

Gettleman made the decision to strip it bare and replace it with players to establish a different 'culture'. Apparently, that culture is a lot more laid back than you'd expect for football players, since it involves taking plays off and not holding the ball with two hands.

An objective viewer would see that a lot of the FO responsible for the draft misfires is still in the Giants employ, including the VP of Pro Personnel and all of the scouting department.

But hey, why would the VP of Personnel and an entire team of scouts *not* start suddenly performing better when an ex-FO member of theirs was promoted to GM?

Because of their ownership, and now look at them. Having a good coach makes a huge difference, as does having some high draft picks. And Shurmur is just a terrible head coach. This team has a huge problem with assignment football and that's all on Shurmur.

This obsession with the Mara's way of thinking being the key problem is a bit tiring. Yes, loyalty is a problem with this franchise and it always has been. But he's not going to sell the team. And the 49ers are proof that bad ownership doesn't doom a franchise.

The best hope is that the GM hires a good coach this time around.


Link - ( New Window )

LOL another can't see the forest for the tress poster.

In comment 14700184 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700171 BillT said: Quote: And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days. This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is. Reese left the team with more talent than it has now - as evidenced by their 11-5 record in 2016. Gettleman made the decision to strip it bare and replace it with players to establish a different 'culture'. Apparently, that culture is a lot more laid back than you'd expect for football players, since it involves taking plays off and not holding the ball with two hands. An objective viewer would see that a lot of the FO responsible for the draft misfires is still in the Giants employ, including the VP of Pro Personnel and all of the scouting department. But hey, why would the VP of Personnel and an entire team of scouts *not* start suddenly performing better when an ex-FO member of theirs was promoted to GM?

Did you forget about the year after (not to mention some years before) the 11-5? Were those teams more talented as well. You really want OBJ, Vernon, Snacks and Apple back. And I didn't say there weren't problems in fact I said the opposite. I just said it's not the problems Lombardi thinks.

In comment 14700196 Torrag said:

Quote:

LOL another can't see the forest for the tress poster.

LOL, sick burn, if you could only spell 'trees'.

fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him.

The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense.

Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go.

So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again.

In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG.

The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything.

The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.

In comment 14700139 Torrag said:

Quote:

Except many successful NFL franchises still work within the same general model/framework as the Giants and it works. But let's not let reality interfere with a good false narrative. Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing. If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's , for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.

Amen

If the positions where DG has invested the most and made his mark were performing adequately, I'd be fine with him giving him another year or two.

I do think he stripped this roster bare this year. Most of which I was fine with - Vernon, Beckham, Collins gone. I did not expect a good year. I thought 6-10 was optimistic.

The two things that have pushed me over the edge to wanting DG fired were: 1. The LW trade. I think his asset allocation has been atrocious since he got here it continues. 2. Seeing no improvement/growth from any of the players he selected.

The only thing I like that he's done is drafting Jones, and Jones is still TBD in many ways.

In comment 14700198 BillT said:

Quote:

Did you forget about the year after (not to mention some years before) the 11-5? Were those teams more talented as well. You really want OBJ, Vernon, Snacks and Apple back. And I didn't say there weren't problems in fact I said the opposite. I just said it's not the problems Lombardi thinks.

Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat.

The best offensive player on this team was selected 2nd overall and can't fall forward for two fucking yards this season. The 6th overall pick in this year's draft apparently needs a coach to tell him to hold the ball with both hands. There's not one bona fide pass rusher under contract for next season, and the idiot in charge just handed over two draft picks, one that will just be out of the 2nd round, for the right to overpay a DT draft bust that the Jets cut loose and didn't miss for a second.

Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse.

how they hire people. They need a full assessment of how everything is done, probably by someone outside the organization, with recommendations for an operating model that is current best-in-class.

For example, do the Giants have a metrics department, like a lot of other forward thinking sports organizations? I guarantee you the Patriots, Chiefs, and Eagles aren't picking players based on some scouts assessment like they did back in the 20s. They're using stats that predict the players most likely to succeed. They're also using stats to manage contract lengths and I'm sure a lot of other things we haven't thought of.

The Giants are (from what I can tell) operating from an old model and are not taking advantage of things other teams have been learing for years now. Time to tear it all down and hand the reins to a modern director of football operations.

In comment 14700184 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700171 BillT said: Quote: And I don't mean there aren't big problems. However, the problems now are nothing like the problems when Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model. John Mara is not "in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything." The Giants run an organizational model that is fairly standard across the league. It's the Cowboys who have a structure like the Giants had in the Wellington Mara as GM days. This team had an pretty unusual circumstance where a "successful" (two SB) GM just had it all go off the rails. He left the team with as little talent as any team in the NFL. Doesn't happen often and we have a very long road back. It may be Mara's decision making or something else but it's not what these quotes say it is. Reese left the team with more talent than it has now - as evidenced by their 11-5 record in 2016. Gettleman made the decision to strip it bare and replace it with players to establish a different 'culture'. Apparently, that culture is a lot more laid back than you'd expect for football players, since it involves taking plays off and not holding the ball with two hands. An objective viewer would see that a lot of the FO responsible for the draft misfires is still in the Giants employ, including the VP of Pro Personnel and all of the scouting department. But hey, why would the VP of Personnel and an entire team of scouts *not* start suddenly performing better when an ex-FO member of theirs was promoted to GM?

Holy Schnikees you actually wrote that?! hahaha Are you insane? REEEACH was the worst and built a team of mercenaries.

Quote:

He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree.

Where is this quality LT?

Though I don't know whether it's the "structure" or the people making decisions within it, to me it seems clear that when your organization crashes and burns like this, and seems to be getting worse instead of better almost 2 years into the rebuild, the problem is at a higher level than the coach or even the GM. Fire one, fire both, if the same structure and decision making above them is replacing them, the results are probably going to be the same.

John Mara and Steve Tisch have to do a thorough review of the whole organization, starting with themselves and extending through senior management, scouting, everything. They've built a mediocre stadium, alienated their fan base, put a putrid product on the field. If they had employees who performed this badly, this consistently, over this long a time, they'd fire those people. They need to think about "firing" themselves and putting someone else in charge.

In comment 14700204 Gettledogman said:

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fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him. The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense. Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go. So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again. In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG. The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything. The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.

Dave, finish your knish and get back to work. Nobody's buying this.

In comment 14700215 Gettledogman said:

Quote:

Holy Schnikees you actually wrote that?! hahaha Are you insane? REEEACH was the worst and built a team of mercenaries.

Reese built the rosters that won two titles. This guy won't ever have a winning record as Giants GM.

Pulling in the same direction.

The numerous 180s we’ve pulled in just two years and the resulting record indicates that’s not the case here

In comment 14700212 jcn56 said:

Quote:

Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat. Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse.

Well, if you think we were better off with Reese's teams and personnel decisions than now then you do.

In comment 14700209 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

If the positions where DG has invested the most and made his mark were performing adequately, I'd be fine with him giving him another year or two. I do think he stripped this roster bare this year. Most of which I was fine with - Vernon, Beckham, Collins gone. I did not expect a good year. I thought 6-10 was optimistic. The two things that have pushed me over the edge to wanting DG fired were: 1. The LW trade. I think his asset allocation has been atrocious since he got here it continues. 2. Seeing no improvement/growth from any of the players he selected. The only thing I like that he's done is drafting Jones, and Jones is still TBD in many ways.

Lets discuss the LW trade -its not what everyone thinks it is. My read on it is -Giants gets a free tryout for a 5th round pick. If LW signs Gmen lose 3rd and a 4th for a 1st round pick! but we also get the 3rd back for the CB or LBr leaving for greener pastures. If LW doesn't get signed and leaves Gmen get the 3rd back in comp. So the real cost is a 4th if he stays or 5th if he leaves. No fing brainer. That is the trade in a nutshell. It is a shot to really evaluate a player who could be a cornerstone player -evaluate whether he is a team player a good locker room guy -is he really worth the money? as there are many rumors about him -IT is SMAHT.

In comment 14700217 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

Quote: He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. Where is this quality LT?

He was best available -It aint like there were many other options at that time.

In comment 14700234 BillT said:

Quote:

In comment 14700212 jcn56 said: Quote: Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat. Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse. Well, if you think we were better off with Reese's teams and personnel decisions than now then you do.

The team was better. They played better, they won more. Look at McAdoo's record vs. Shurmur. It's not just because McAdoo was a better coach, he had more talent to work with.

Gettleman stripped it bare to rebuild it, and he stuffed the roster with garbage.