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| Mara, the son of the late Wellington Mara, grew up within the Giants’ organizational structure: it’s all he knows. Mara believed he had the wrong people in those specific jobs, and that by replacing those people with “the right” people, success would soon follow. This method worked for his father; it has to work for him, right? |
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| Giants will have their third double-digit losing season for the first time since 1978-1980. Which is interesting, because after the 1978 season, then-commissioner Pete Rozelle demanded that the Giants alter their organizational model... Someone needs to tell Mara: he is in the same spot as his father was, and he needs to change everything. |
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| If only Rozelle were around to tell Mara that he needs to move on from the dark ages to modern football. Shurmur is a by-product of everything that is wrong with the Giants. Fans can blame Shurmur, but Shurmur is the symptom, not the problem. |
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Holy Schnikees you actually wrote that?! hahaha Are you insane? REEEACH was the worst and built a team of mercenaries.
Reese built the rosters that won two titles. This guy won't ever have a winning record as Giants GM.
No Accorsi and Gettleman did.. check it out.
If the Giants sit on that much cap money, 2 wins might be next year's high water mark.
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In comment 14700212 jcn56 said:
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Rather than the festering shitshow we're watching now? I'd take those guys back in a heartbeat.
Yes, I'd take that team back in a heartbeat. The objective wasn't just to fire Reese, it was to find someone better. By any objective measure, Gettleman is worse. MUCH worse.
Well, if you think we were better off with Reese's teams and personnel decisions than now then you do.
The team was better. They played better, they won more. Look at McAdoo's record vs. Shurmur. It's not just because McAdoo was a better coach, he had more talent to work with.
Gettleman stripped it bare to rebuild it, and he stuffed the roster with garbage.
I would disagree that "he stuffed the roster with garbage." I don't know how things will work out (nor do you) but the players they are counting on are very, very young. Plus, units like the OL, which were terrible under Resse as well, are still in need of more good players. There was far too much to do in two years. It could take twice that long to be respectable and even that wouldn't be a bad job.
Is that part behind the firewall at The Athletic?
Firewall? Paywall I suspect.
Trouble for us is that Getty has squandered top picks and later pcps now. (A RB at the 2 was never the right call and the jury is still out on DJ).
Anyway... Got to start by getting Getty out of the building. Get a new GM, and for gods sake don’t ask Ernie Accorsi to pick the GM.
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He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree.
Where is this quality LT?
He was best available -It aint like there were many other options at that time.
There it is...the no options excuse.
No options available other than creating the highest paid LT in the game that plays more like the 19th best left tackle a the time...and the 28th best tackle now.
Where do DG go to pick up his GM of the Year trophy?
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fans get dumber. Just sit back and watch. The GM took over a team bereft of character and cohesion with an aging franchise QB on a team of malcontents w terribly mismanaged cap but they owed it to him to try and win -the last GM squandered his last 8yrs. That's why he was loyal to him.
The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense.
Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go.
So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again.
In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG.
The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything.
The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.
Dave, finish your knish and get back to work. Nobody's buying this.
I stopped reading after he wrote face of the franchise at RB. Not one team needs a face of the franchise at the most replaceable position in the sport. Also, the oline is arguable worse now then when DG took over. Gelling dline? This the same Dline that got gashed by the Jets? You know the team that just got thrashed by the 0-11 Bengals. How about giving the immortal Mitch Trubisky a week to throw the ball? Either FMiC changed his name or DG learned how to use a computer.
3rd and 8, same obvious vanilla pass protection, same short pass to the sticks , very easy to pass rush on and attack . 'the polite wco''
That's under Jerry Reese then under the Getts.
My guess - the Getts had nothing to do with the coach hire. He wants to smash face and run it obviously . Why would he draft a RB for this?
He's taken big swings at OL in each year. None of them have panned out. Tried to addred Guard in free agency, failed. Traded for an established veteran. Middling results.
They consciously went into the 2019 football season with their best option at RT being a guy with a surgically repaired back and no depth at the position.
These are on his head. And that's just one position group.
We keep trying to make the task of taking over the team so large that it can excuse all the failings. That's the wrong view to evaluate a GM with.
Job One for him was offensive line. He came in talking about it, wouldn't stop talking about it, and threw a lot of money and resources at it for no gain. It's been one mis-evaluation after another.
Also has a flashing neon sign next to it
I want to believe his forte is in college scouting and that maybe his drafts have been very good, but with this coaching staff how can anyone tell. Every damn player on the team appears to be playing worse than their talent level.
point being... while I would fire them both, I can see Mara's firing coaches and letting DG stick around another year or 2.
Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing.
If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's
, for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.
The only thing I take from that is that Marty Hurney handed over a much better team than Jerry Reese did.
That said, he owns the team and can do what he wants. If he gets lucky, he will find someone to bail him out. If not, this team will be the laughing stock of the NFL for years to come.
Read more carefully next time?
That said, he owns the team and can do what he wants. If he gets lucky, he will find someone to bail him out. If not, this team will be the laughing stock of the NFL for years to come.
Even funnier! Gettleman replaces a bunch of guys with garbage, and naturally, it's Reese's fault.
I wonder if Reese has been secretly greasing Barkley's shoes and is responsible for his inability to run effectively.
Gettelman took a 15-1 team to the Superbowl four years ago for fucksake. The game hasn't significantly altered in that time. So stop the Giants are a broken structure bullshit because it isn't remotely true. Sure there are other approaches and philosophies but there is nothing wrong with the one the Giants are employing.
If anything the Giants are suffering from Mara staying loyal to Reese, a GM that delivered two Lombardi's
, for too long. They've made a couple bad head coaching hires that have slowed the recovery process.
so many here give Reese a pass for his blowing the draft since 2012 and putting this team in the hell that it is today..
Blaming DG for everything is popular here, but the effing team was trash in 2013.. DG will be judged by his work in the 2020 season... Murmur was a poor hire, but again, he was hot ticket in 2018 so you get the hire..
he and his staff have not improved this season at aall despite gettign everything they wanted, thats on them
The Former coaching staff was weakened by the former GM who had arguably the worst draft record in the league but rode 2 Super bowl wins as he decimated the talent pool and tried band aid after bandaid to cover his mistakes and ownership signed off on a lot of this nonsense.
Accorsi is right Gets is the right guy period. Accorsi built the championship team with Gets -he knew he Fd up letting him go.
So he had to start a ground up rebuild while trying to capture whatever was left of potential wins. He replaced the worst LT the game has seen with a Quality LT from a Super Bowl champion with a Championship pedigree. He replaced a woeful LB'r with an upgrade and also a winning team first attitude. He tried to rebuild on the fly w a Coach that is clearly in over his head. I doubt he will make that mistake again.
In the meantime he added significant upgrades and found the face of the franchise at both RB and QB -yes Dan Jones is a franchise QB if you cant see that you are a moron. He is already setting team records. We also have a burgeoning future star at WR or are you not seeing him get better game after game. Our OL needs work, You know whats looking 100% better? The DL, the pieces are starting to come together there too. The Safety he traded for -better value than the guy not given a ridiculous contract who ended up in DC. The WR he paid "too" much money for better valu than the headcase guy he traded for a solid OG.
The D needs work one of the biggest swings and misses has been Betcher -he needs to go. Schumur is over matched the team is too sloppy and while the do play hard -THEY DO NOT PLAY SMART. The talent though is being upgraded and the first 2 drafts have been light years better than the prior 8! Stop being so emotional about everything.
The Steelers almost made the worst mistake they could have firing Tomlin -one of the best dang coaches in the league. I hope the Panthers Fire Rivera -hes perfect for the GMen and has god relationship with Getteldog.
Ok good, somebody else thinks like me. Great post.
Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM.
It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple
Yup. He’d need the right coach. Like McDaniels.
3rd and 8, same obvious vanilla pass protection, same short pass to the sticks , very easy to pass rush on and attack . 'the polite wco''
That's under Jerry Reese then under the Getts.
My guess - the Getts had nothing to do with the coach hire. He wants to smash face and run it obviously . Why would he draft a RB for this?
You're literally just making things up to defend a senile, terrible GM
His Oakland teams went to three AFC title games and a Super Bowl. Belichick's called him one of the smartest people he's ever worked with.
For all the shit Gettleman talks, Lombardi's had more success.
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Since you all agree with his assessment?
Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM.
It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple
its not just the roster, its the wasting of assets (Sam Beal, RB at 2, Lauletta in the 4th, Leonard Williams, a DT at 17, trading up for Baker), refusal to trade down when the team has 900 holes, and refusal to be realistic about what this team has been for 3 year (garbage). And signing Golden Tate and giving the Eagles a comp pick is just infuriating. He has had tremendous opportunity to rebuild the franchise and he's squandered it.
The roster sure as fuck isn’t great but the lack of leadership and game by game direction is the number one priority right now. Start there.
Duggan's article on the Athletic yesterday about covering a losing team was pretty amusing.
And W/R/T the sub price, I wouldn't pay full price for it but they have sale prices often enough to make it worth it. Last year I paid $35 for the year and this year $30.
Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL.
Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara.
Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become.
After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore.
The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate.
That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired.
Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI.
So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play.
The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy.
Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight.
What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen?
Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )
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In comment 14700508 Britt in VA said:
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Since you all agree with his assessment?
Certainly couldn't be any worse than the clown we have at GM.
It's not hard to see how awful DG is. But for some on here it somehow is. How even one person on this site likes this roster is beyond me. Never mind multiple
its not just the roster, its the wasting of assets (Sam Beal, RB at 2, Lauletta in the 4th, Leonard Williams, a DT at 17, trading up for Baker), refusal to trade down when the team has 900 holes, and refusal to be realistic about what this team has been for 3 year (garbage). And signing Golden Tate and giving the Eagles a comp pick is just infuriating. He has had tremendous opportunity to rebuild the franchise and he's squandered it.
Agreed. You could have even given him a pass about the 2018 draft if he went into draft pick acquisition mode. Instead he did the opposite with the Williams trade and trading up for Baker.
Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL.
Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara.
Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become.
After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore.
The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate.
That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired.
Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI.
So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play.
The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy.
Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight.
What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen? Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )
Nice post and link. Thanks.
Seubert, Shaun O'Hara, David Diehl. Were these guys great athletes with multiple Pro Bowl selections.
Solder was the 17th overall pick and 2nd tackle chosen in the 2011 draft. Flowers was the 9th overall pick in the 2015 draft. Diehl was a fifth round pick who made the Pro Bowl once as a replacement. No one ever called him very athletic. But Diehl was good enough to play left tackle through two undefeated playoff runs.
I submit that David Diehl on this team with this coach would be just as inadequate as Solders and Flowers. Send him back to Bill in New England and he'd play just as well as Solder did over there.
This obsession with the Mara's way of thinking being the key problem is a bit tiring. Yes, loyalty is a problem with this franchise and it always has been. But he's not going to sell the team. And the 49ers are proof that bad ownership doesn't doom a franchise.
The best hope is that the GM hires a good coach this time around.
Link - ( New Window )
The 49ers are actually an example of the 'modern' structure. They hired the coach and the coach hired a GM he could rely on to source talent specifically within the parameters of the coaches needs. I wouldn't say Lynch is a yes man for Shanahan but if a decision is disputed there there's only one guy making the final call and it's not Lynch.
Here we have Gettleman and his well stated preferences and biases in talent evaluation. For example if we had hired Shanahan I'm not sure how Gettleman's for large linemen would have worked with Shanahan's zone blocking scheme which favors mobility (the 49ers have one of the lightest olines in the NFL)
Nonsense, based on what? His magical transformation of this O-line from dysfunctional to disastrous, nice job, Getts! Or his transformation of a 3-13 team into a...3-13 team, YAy!!!
The 49ers are actually an example of the 'modern' structure. They hired the coach and the coach hired a GM he could rely on to source talent specifically within the parameters of the coaches needs. I wouldn't say Lynch is a yes man for Shanahan but if a decision is disputed there there's only one guy making the final call and it's not Lynch.
Here we have Gettleman and his well stated preferences and biases in talent evaluation. For example if we had hired Shanahan I'm not sure how Gettleman's for large linemen would have worked with Shanahan's zone blocking scheme which favors mobility (the 49ers have one of the lightest olines in the NFL)
That's a good point - the 49ers owners essentially "fired" themselves, taking a back seat and handing over the reigns to Lynch and Shanahan. They also put them on the same timeline - so sink or swim, they do it together.
Shurmur was almost destined to failure. He wasn't that great a coach to begin with, he entered a FO that had a long established relationship with preconceived notions of what they wanted to do. I even wonder if the OC was his choice or if Shula was chosen for him, which might be relevant to his decision not to hand over the playcalling responsibilities. I seriously doubt he was winning any power struggles over personnel decisions.
I don't know how his performance could be more clearly pathetic than to view it in comparison to what Miami is doing with a first year coach after fielding perhaps the worst roster of players in the last decade (their entire OL was practically practice squaders a year ago), and to see Shurmur's group get thoroughly outclassed during this losing streak by teams who are just as talent deficient with either first or second year coaches (Jets, Lions, Cardinals).
I was hopeful that in his second stint as a head coach Shurmur could build a staff that supports his weaknesses and throughout year 1 thought he was at minimum the best offensive playcaller we'd had in a couple of decades (not a high bar). This year he has regressed in almost every imaginable way and even with all new players his defensive coordinator has a non-competitive unit. Look no further than what Gregg Williams is doing in year 1 with many of his best players injured to see again the difference coaching can make.
I don't think the team has quit on Shurmur but they clearly have lost any belief in him being the guy to lead them successfully, and it's impossible to argue that assessment.
Good decisions vs. bad decisions, this team isn't only limited by it's coaching.
Trouble for us is that Getty has squandered top picks and later pcps now. (A RB at the 2 was never the right call and the jury is still out on DJ).
Anyway... Got to start by getting Getty out of the building. Get a new GM, and for gods sake don’t ask Ernie Accorsi to pick the GM.
Agree 100%.
Tag the Jets draft bust for a year.
Yeah, that makes sense. Just like giving up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to apply the tag to him.
The impact of that trade, of throwing away FA money on guys who can't play - they all add up to 2-10. They're not being dramatized, the Giants are a fucking tragedy.
It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.
I think it's been under dramatized. Teams heading for lousy records basically never make this type of move. There are many reasons for that.
It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.
Yeah This is a stupid take -DG is the one who ran pro personnel for Giants -signed Mackenze, Ohara, AP, Plax, Hedgecock, should we keep going on?
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The Giants repeated the mistake of the Ogletree trade - trading much needed assets to pay a solid player market value.
It reinforces my belief that DG is incompetent at asset allocation.
Yeah This is a stupid take -DG is the one who ran pro personnel for Giants -signed Mackenze, Ohara, AP, Plax, Hedgecock, should we keep going on?
Right, and he wasn't in charge of asset allocation - thanks for agreeing.
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that doesn't immediately make him a bad player. Tag him for a year and see what he looks like under the next DC, and if he's not a difference maker let him walk and recoup a comp pick similar to 1 of the picks given up. The impact of that trade has been largely over dramatized.
Tag the Jets draft bust for a year.
Yeah, that makes sense. Just like giving up a 3rd and a 4th for the right to apply the tag to him.
The impact of that trade, of throwing away FA money on guys who can't play - they all add up to 2-10. They're not being dramatized, the Giants are a fucking tragedy.
Just because a guy doesn't become an all pro doesn't mean he's a bust - unlike Eli Apple or Flowers by all accounts he's a good guy and at minimum a solid starter who is very good against the run. I haven't seen anyone credibly state the guy is not at least a starting level player or a liability - as guys like Flowers and Apple again obviously were here.
Solid players whose draft pedigrees suggest they may still have some upside, in their mid-20's, and with a history of good health, are the exact type of FA profile I'd be looking for. When we let Linval Joseph and his 9 career sacks and 0 pro bowl appearances walk at age 25 he fit that exact profile. He's since started 85 games for Minnesota and anchored 1 of the better defenses in football over that period of time. And his career high is still 4 sacks.