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LG Ereck Flowers LG has a higher PFF than LG Hernandez

V.I.G. : 12/2/2019 5:31 pm
Hal Hunter is gone - book it

yah yah, PFF blah blah - if you don't like it, don't click


https://twitter.com/angelsteve89/status/1201574074897567747 - ( New Window )
So fucking sick  
darren in pdx : 12/2/2019 5:32 pm : link
of PFF. Fucking worse thing to happen since fantasy football.
Hernandez  
MookGiants : 12/2/2019 5:33 pm : link
like everyone else in the 2018 draft class has been a big disappointment this year.
...  
V.I.G. : 12/2/2019 5:33 pm : link
RE: So fucking sick  
micky : 12/2/2019 5:33 pm : link
In comment 14700270 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
of PFF. Fucking worse thing to happen since fantasy football.


This and people go by it are just as clueless
RE: So fucking sick  
V.I.G. : 12/2/2019 5:34 pm : link
In comment 14700270 darren in pdx said:
Quote:
of PFF. Fucking worse thing to happen since fantasy football.

then don't click
...  
V.I.G. : 12/2/2019 5:35 pm : link
The point isn't whether one is better than the other  
jcn56 : 12/2/2019 5:37 pm : link
it's that the Redskins made a serviceable guard out of him. The Giants never even bothered to try him out there.
Hernandez  
Marty866b : 12/2/2019 5:41 pm : link
Has been crap this year. Hardly the road grader that he was supposed to be and poor footwork and mobility pass blocking. Big disappointment!
RE: Hernandez  
The_Boss : 12/2/2019 5:42 pm : link
In comment 14700272 MookGiants said:
Quote:
like everyone else in the 2018 draft class has been a big disappointment this year.


Usually players take a big leap from their rookie years into year 2. Not one player has taken that leap. I doubt Barkley has plateaued, but it wouldnít shock me if Hernandez, Carter, and Hill have.
RE: The point isn't whether one is better than the other  
JohnnyFlowers : 12/2/2019 5:42 pm : link
In comment 14700283 jcn56 said:
Quote:
it's that the Redskins made a serviceable guard out of him. The Giants never even bothered to try him out there.


I don't know if that is entirely true. I heard rumors that he refused to move to guard as that would negatively affect his value on the open market. But once he was cut a few times, he had no choice.
RE: The point isn't whether one is better than the other  
Blue21 : 12/2/2019 5:45 pm : link
In comment 14700283 jcn56 said:
Quote:
it's that the Redskins made a serviceable guard out of him. The Giants never even bothered to try him out there.


That may be the worse part. Although he may have needed an attitude adjustment. Maybe he resisted it because let's face it he was on his rookie contract and looking for a big payday. LT's make more money than Guards. But I do remember a lot of BBI'ers saying the Giants should try him there.
Mahomes  
Toth029 : 12/2/2019 5:46 pm : link
Isn't a top 5 QB according to PFF.
Flowers should have been playing OG from the beginning  
Torrag : 12/2/2019 5:47 pm : link
One of the worst draft player evaluations in Giants history. That said I don't think he's better than Hernandez.
RE: Mahomes  
V.I.G. : 12/2/2019 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14700309 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Isn't a top 5 QB according to PFF.

actually, last i saw he was #2 so... yeah
hes also in his 5th year  
Rory : 12/2/2019 5:55 pm : link
and playing next to Donald Penn a 14 year vet.

Plus I've heard the center Chase Roullier is an up and coming player.
Not sure I buy the grading comparison...  
bw in dc : 12/2/2019 6:01 pm : link
but I'm sure of this - Hernandez is not the second coming of John Hannah, as many thought he was going to be.

The 2018 draft class is looking less and less impressive overall.

RE: Flowers should have been playing OG from the beginning  
chuckydee9 : 12/2/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14700315 Torrag said:
Quote:
One of the worst draft player evaluations in Giants history. That said I don't think he's better than Hernandez.


I think all their plans went down the drain with all the injuries that happened prior to the start of his rookie season... Once he played as a LT, he got pigeon holed there .. JR didn't bother getting a replacement after first or second season.. rather he just expected that Flowers would improve.. then when asked to move he didn't want to because it would effect his paycheck.. Overall this was a mess at many level and he would never be an effective player with the giants..

Whats worth considering is that Will Hernandez may not be all that people make him out to be.. and he has looked pretty mediocre this year and actually worse than mediocre at times. I don't see a pro-bowl level LG from him..
RE: RE: Mahomes  
Toth029 : 12/2/2019 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14700317 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14700309 Toth029 said:


Quote:


Isn't a top 5 QB according to PFF.


actually, last i saw he was #2 so... yeah


https://mobile.twitter.com/pff/status/1195903389579849728

Wasn't recently.
The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 6:06 pm : link
at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.
again 5 years in the league now  
Rory : 12/2/2019 6:10 pm : link
you guys expect rookie lineman to be drafted and brought to the NFL to be saviors in their first season.

Oh and Flowers is only 25.
RE: again 5 years in the league now  
Greg from LI : 12/2/2019 6:14 pm : link
In comment 14700366 Rory said:
Quote:
you guys expect rookie lineman to be drafted and brought to the NFL to be saviors in their first season


Nelson, who they should have drafted instead of the Hand of God, was an All-Pro last year as a rookie.
RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
AcidTest : 12/2/2019 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14700360 .McL. said:
Quote:
at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.


Agreed. I'm also not sure it's fair to judge Hernandez when the entire OL has been poor. Let's see what he's like at this time next year.
RE: RE: again 5 years in the league now  
Rory : 12/2/2019 6:22 pm : link
In comment 14700370 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14700366 Rory said:


Quote:


you guys expect rookie lineman to be drafted and brought to the NFL to be saviors in their first season



Nelson, who they should have drafted instead of the Hand of God, was an All-Pro last year as a rookie.


With Costanzo and Ryan Kelly already established Colts oline is a favorable place to start your career if you're a offensive guard. Nelson went to the best destination he could ask for, not sure he replicates that in NY
RE: The point isn't whether one is better than the other  
NYDCBlue : 12/2/2019 6:22 pm : link
In comment 14700283 jcn56 said:
Quote:
it's that the Redskins made a serviceable guard out of him. The Giants never even bothered to try him out there.


Be prepared to be ignored. Your point can't be argued against so it will probably just be ignored and left out in the cold. I have argued for trying Flowers at guard here based on his exemplary college highlights of him pulling and simply obliterating defenders who look 100 pounds lighter than him, with a full head of steam, while they had the advantage of moving in free space. He has always looked like an above average guard to my eye. I am not surprised at his success there one bit.

Flowers has always had a definable skillset. He has super quick feet, exemplary short area quickness, and he is good old down country farm strong.... Why our coaches could not coax an average NFL starter out of that is beyond me.
RE: RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
Thankyoueli : 12/2/2019 6:23 pm : link
In comment 14700373 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 14700360 .McL. said:


Quote:


at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.



Agreed. I'm also not sure it's fair to judge Hernandez when the entire OL has been poor. Let's see what he's like at this time next year.


I was Nelson's biggest hype man, had him as the clear #1 player in the draft. But was told by many #2 overall is too high to draft a guard (even if he literally is a Zach Martin clone, which.. good god I dont even have the words)

We would be happy now but.. 80-90% of the fans wouldve botched at the time.

Check that.. there would 1000% still be people saying we didnt get "positional value", no question.

Either way he and Barkley are both great players, I'm not mad to have either.
Man...I hope Hernandez is a just a function of this ineptness  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 6:23 pm : link
we really need someone on that Oline to stay a few years...
RE: RE: RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14700387 Thankyoueli said:
Quote:
In comment 14700373 AcidTest said:


Quote:


In comment 14700360 .McL. said:


Quote:


at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.



Agreed. I'm also not sure it's fair to judge Hernandez when the entire OL has been poor. Let's see what he's like at this time next year.



I was Nelson's biggest hype man, had him as the clear #1 player in the draft. But was told by many #2 overall is too high to draft a guard (even if he literally is a Zach Martin clone, which.. good god I dont even have the words)

We would be happy now but.. 80-90% of the fans wouldve botched at the time.

Check that.. there would 1000% still be people saying we didnt get "positional value", no question.

Either way he and Barkley are both great players, I'm not mad to have either.

You just joined in the last month. You weren't hyping Nelson here or getting negative Nelson feedback unless you are a dup.
RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
NoGainDayne : 12/2/2019 6:30 pm : link
In comment 14700360 .McL. said:
Quote:
at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.


Very legitimate point. The counter-point might be the Giants are behind in the management of modern sports personalities and a different leadership / player management structure could have been much better for Flowers.

I both completely agree with what you said but also am unwilling to excuse the Giants for their backwards thinking.
You wanna help Hernandez!  
Emil : 12/2/2019 6:44 pm : link
How about we run more running plays with the QB under center more than a handful of times in a game!!!
years ago I got to speak to Todd Christensen  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/2/2019 6:48 pm : link
Todd was drafted by Dallas as a fullback, his 2nd year in, Coach Landry wanted to convert him to a TE, he refused and got waived

The Giants claimed him, wanted to use him as a TE and he refused, got waived for Dwight Scales ( remember him?)

Finally the Raiders claimed him and wanted to play him as a Tight End.. and he realized this where he needed to be..

He was a all word TE with the Raiders.. I asked him the Giants were DYING for a TE at the time, he was like I thought I knew better.. same thing may be true with Flowers..
RE: RE: RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 12/2/2019 6:50 pm : link
In comment 14700387 Thankyoueli said:
Quote:
In comment 14700373 AcidTest said:


Quote:


In comment 14700360 .McL. said:


Quote:


at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.



Agreed. I'm also not sure it's fair to judge Hernandez when the entire OL has been poor. Let's see what he's like at this time next year.



I was Nelson's biggest hype man, had him as the clear #1 player in the draft. But was told by many #2 overall is too high to draft a guard (even if he literally is a Zach Martin clone, which.. good god I dont even have the words)

We would be happy now but.. 80-90% of the fans wouldve botched at the time.

Check that.. there would 1000% still be people saying we didnt get "positional value", no question.

Either way he and Barkley are both great players, I'm not mad to have either.


So you are admitting you are dupe. What was your former handle?
Quenton Nelson  
CY2020 : 12/2/2019 6:51 pm : link
I was screaming back in 2018 that Quenton Nelson was worthy of the #2 overall pick, and got killed for it
No idea how accurate PFF is in the grand scheme of things  
UConn4523 : 12/2/2019 6:52 pm : link
but this further proves how bad out coaching is. The fact the Flowers is atleast serviceable is a tough pill to swallow. Even tougher is another player regressing.

Iím starting to believe that all the shit that ex players are talking is more true than untrue.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
Thankyoueli : 12/2/2019 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14700396 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14700387 Thankyoueli said:


Quote:


In comment 14700373 AcidTest said:


Quote:


In comment 14700360 .McL. said:


Quote:


at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.



Agreed. I'm also not sure it's fair to judge Hernandez when the entire OL has been poor. Let's see what he's like at this time next year.



I was Nelson's biggest hype man, had him as the clear #1 player in the draft. But was told by many #2 overall is too high to draft a guard (even if he literally is a Zach Martin clone, which.. good god I dont even have the words)

We would be happy now but.. 80-90% of the fans wouldve botched at the time.

Check that.. there would 1000% still be people saying we didnt get "positional value", no question.

Either way he and Barkley are both great players, I'm not mad to have either.


You just joined in the last month. You weren't hyping Nelson here or getting negative Nelson feedback unless you are a dup.


It's almost like there's a world or even other forums outside of BBI...

You guys are very strange when it comes to this stuff... also I get we suck and all but why do some people here just seem like they're pissed off 25 hours a day? Do you come here just to argue and vent your frustrations?
RE: Quenton Nelson  
Thankyoueli : 12/2/2019 6:55 pm : link
In comment 14700427 CY2020 said:
Quote:
I was screaming back in 2018 that Quenton Nelson was worthy of the #2 overall pick, and got killed for it


Impossible, you're a.. dupe(?)

Yeah, that.
We can discuss draft picks,  
smshmth8690 : 12/2/2019 6:56 pm : link
and use hindsight to find fault with all picks, but until a coaching staff that can motivate, and teach the players how to play in the NFL, it's a moot point. What if the Giants drafted Quentin Nelson, and then Nick Chubb, or Sony Michel last year, well then we'd probably be talking about their second year struggles as well. It doesn't matter who they bring in here, because the coaching staff sucks.

As for Flowers, he needed to go somewhere, and grow up. I guess switching to G was better than getting a 9 to 5 job. Remember when he was a rookie, and hurt his (knee or ankle) and shoved the trainer away from himself when they were checking him out? Yup, just acting like a pro.
There is a faction on BBI that adheres to certain draft philosophies  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2019 7:05 pm : link
that do not always fit the situation, such as for a perennial losing team in desperate need for talent everywhere.

These include statements that top 10 picks are not be used on "lesser play-making positions" such as Guard or Middle Linebacker. Or that trading down is unheard of because draft quality trumps draft quantity.



Two words....  
Reb8thVA : 12/2/2019 7:07 pm : link
Bill Callahan.

Letís face it our recent OL coaches havenít been the cream of the crop.

RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
Mdgiantsfan : 12/2/2019 7:07 pm : link
In comment 14700360 .McL. said:
Quote:
at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.


So a guy on his rookie contract that sucked at LT gets to dictate where heís going to play? The fact that we never tried him at guard only magnifies the ineptitude of this organization. We still had leverage because he still needed to prove heís worth a new contract once he hit free agency. And itís not like we had pro bowlers at guard. Now heís a more than a serviceable guard and we are still searching for answers across the emtirw line.
Gee, a slow footed but big strong  
Beer Man : 12/2/2019 7:21 pm : link
college OT is moved to OG in the pros and succeeds; who would have thunk?
RE: RE: The fact that FLowers is playing decently as a Guard  
.McL. : 12/2/2019 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14700446 Mdgiantsfan said:
Quote:
In comment 14700360 .McL. said:


Quote:


at this point in his career is immaterial to the Giants.

Flowers wasn't accepting of the move from LT to RT, and had mentally checked out from this organization years prior. He would have been even less accepting of a move to G here, and given even less of an effort.

Sometimes a person and an organization need to part ways for the benefit of both.



So a guy on his rookie contract that sucked at LT gets to dictate where heís going to play? The fact that we never tried him at guard only magnifies the ineptitude of this organization. We still had leverage because he still needed to prove heís worth a new contract once he hit free agency. And itís not like we had pro bowlers at guard. Now heís a more than a serviceable guard and we are still searching for answers across the emtirw line.

You completely missed the part where I said the FLowers had checked out mentally and wasn't giving the effort even at RT. He would have given even less at G while he was here. Its only after he left and failed playing T somewhere else that he decided as a last ditch effort to save his career he would give some effort at G.

THe player does decide wether he want to give the effort or not. Not giving it, gets him cut. Somebody else decides to give that player a trye, When a player realizes that he is out of chance, sometimes they try harder.... The Giants have been on the losing side of this problem with some players, and on the winning side with others. Kerry Collins comes to mind a successful reclamation project for the Giants.
Flowers looked good yesterday  
Vanzetti : 12/3/2019 2:29 am : link
What was most noticeable was the change in attitude. He was totally rah rah. Fist pumping, chest thumping. Hard to believe it was the same guy

Not sure how he has played all year but he was a monster on Sunday
You all taking a shit on Hernandez cant see  
Brown Recluse : 12/3/2019 4:54 am : link
that this is a coaching issue? The fact that Flowers left and resurrected his career elsewhere doesnt make that obvious? What do you think would happen if Hernandez left?

.  
BlueHurricane : 12/3/2019 7:20 am : link
One of them has one of the best OL coaches in the business,  
Section331 : 12/3/2019 8:04 am : link
the other has Hal Hunter.
RE: You all taking a shit on Hernandez cant see  
jcn56 : 12/3/2019 8:38 am : link
In comment 14700768 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
that this is a coaching issue? The fact that Flowers left and resurrected his career elsewhere doesnt make that obvious? What do you think would happen if Hernandez left?


Does it? Flowers had Pat Flaherty and Mike Solari as well - are those guys shit coaches too?

Maybe Flowers needed a change of scenery - but it still doesn't explain why they wouldn't try him out at G. He might have flopped, but we'll never know.
RE: RE: You all taking a shit on Hernandez cant see  
crick n NC : 12/3/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14700865 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14700768 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


that this is a coaching issue? The fact that Flowers left and resurrected his career elsewhere doesnt make that obvious? What do you think would happen if Hernandez left?




Does it? Flowers had Pat Flaherty and Mike Solari as well - are those guys shit coaches too?

Maybe Flowers needed a change of scenery - but it still doesn't explain why they wouldn't try him out at G. He might have flopped, but we'll never know.


How do you know they didn't want to move him to guard?
Doesn't the player have to accept the change? They can't make him move to guard.
I don't give a shit about Ereck Flowers. He's a quitter and a jerk.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/3/2019 9:23 am : link
Will Hernandez has been awful this season and there's no getting around that (unlike Will, who's very easy to get around). I could understand if he had an issue with movement skills as a big man, but he gets shoved into the backfield too.
OL is a team sport, if you have crap on the left and right its  
PatersonPlank : 12/3/2019 10:31 am : link
impossible not to get tainted too.

Also, in my opinion, when players are getting worse year to year that is one of my clear signs that the coaching sucks. These are the coaches that need great players everywhere to win, so they never do win. Good coaches are improving their players, lifting the whole boat so to speak. By the way, this is more of an indictment of the position coaches rather than Shurmur. However he hired them, and he should also be close enough to see what is happening and jump in/fire their asses.
For a team that has very little talent  
WideRight : 12/3/2019 10:43 am : link
The Giants have quite a few veterans that are succeeding elsewhere:

Flowers
Collins
Prince
Kennard
Apple

I'm sure there's more, and of the five listed, 4 are on D. Including three from a secondary that is the worst in the league.

It used to be that the only players that left where toast.
RE: RE: RE: You all taking a shit on Hernandez cant see  
jcn56 : 12/3/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14700891 crick n NC said:
Quote:

How do you know they didn't want to move him to guard?
Doesn't the player have to accept the change? They can't make him move to guard.


Does the player have to accept the change? Can't they just cut him - they ended up doing exactly that with Flowers...

...who then signed with the Flaherty coached Jaguars.
RE: For a team that has very little talent  
Giants in 07 : 12/3/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14701009 WideRight said:
Quote:
The Giants have quite a few veterans that are succeeding elsewhere:

Flowers
Collins
Prince
Kennard
Apple

I'm sure there's more, and of the five listed, 4 are on D. Including three from a secondary that is the worst in the league.

It used to be that the only players that left where toast.


Kennard is the only legitimate name on that list to gripe about. You think we should have signed Landon Collins to an $84 million deal?

Prince and Apple are succeeding? In what way? Apple looks awful in every Saints game I watch and Prince plays on one of the most talented defenses in the league.

Giants fans will do anything to bash the Giants
What is there to be gained by bashing Prince?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/3/2019 7:41 pm : link
You don't become a nine-year starter in the league if you can't play. He's a good NFL player.

Apple sucks.
Pretty sure Sy56 wanted Braden Smith with that pick  
Dave in PA : 12/3/2019 9:31 pm : link
Howís he been performing for the Colts this year?
RE: For a team that has very little talent  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/4/2019 8:04 am : link
In comment 14701009 WideRight said:
Quote:
The Giants have quite a few veterans that are succeeding elsewhere:

Flowers
Collins
Prince
Kennard
Apple

I'm sure there's more, and of the five listed, 4 are on D. Including three from a secondary that is the worst in the league.

It used to be that the only players that left where toast.


"Succeeding" is a low bar here. Flowers hasn't even been serviceable in Washington despite this PFF crap. Their OL has been bad. Collins hasn't played well. Apple hasn't played well.

If those three players had the same exact performances with the Giants, we'd be ripping them, and be correct in doing so.
RE: What is there to be gained by bashing Prince?  
Section331 : 12/4/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14701918 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
You don't become a nine-year starter in the league if you can't play. He's a good NFL player.

Apple sucks.


Exactly. "He plays on a good defense" has to be one of the strangest critiques I've ever heard. Wouldn't he have to be good to start on a loaded defense?

And before injury, Apple was playing pretty well this year.
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