Firing Shurmur 2 seasons in is a Browns kind of move

the 49ers before Shanahan/Lynch came in that they fired their previous two coaches each after ONE season.

All of the stuff about incompetence and perception quickly gets wiped away to where its not even mentioned at all the moment the team wins some games.

In comment 14700821 JerryNicklebag said:

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Not grant it

Granite. :)

In comment 14700855 fkap said:

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hiring them is. Every year some people have the mindset that no one good is out there to hire. Every year there is coaching turnover in the league. Every year some of the new hires succeed and some fail.

Wisdom for the ages

In comment 14700845 cosmicj said:

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.

Shurmur getting within sniffing distance of the job is the startling thing.

I really wish I could have been there when I heard Shurmur outline his complete vision of how he would be the CEO of the team in his interview.

You watch him and you listen to him and you just come away wondering "WTF?"

I remember not even bothering to hear his introductory press conference because I didn't like the hire to start with. He has done nothing to change the initial perception.

I keep asking myself if Shurmur was simply the best choice out of terrible options the GM gave the owner. Or did the organization purposely not seek out the best candidates and sabotaged their own search from the start, leaving them with poor options to choose from.

.

As far as the Giants go, it's the 1970s all over again.

Until there is major organizational change, this team will remain a cellar dweller.

George Young was the change that began the turnaround.

A similar change is needed now. Given the way the game is, that's probably a HC largely acting as GM.

I was in favor of keeping Shurmur one more year and if he fails, take DG with him.

I do think DG should get one more year...However, I'm not excited about keeping Shurmur.

We'd have to swap out his coaching staff and I'm not sure you'll get quality guys knowing they have 1 year.

Ideally, he'd take the OC job and let someone else be the HC...but I doubt that happens.

What makes some sense is to bring Coughlin (or other mentor) back as an advisor to work with Shurmur. Then evaluate the GM and Coach next year.

It's a mess!

In comment 14700824 Dnew15 said:

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In comment 14700818 broadbandz said: Quote: gave Wilks one season and move on. If a guy sucks it's easy to see over the course of one season. AZ was right. Just because the Browns did something doesn't mean it's the wrong thing for another team to do. They did the same thing with Rosen. And as much as people want to love on what Kingsbury has done there in AZ...the Cards are 3-8-1 this season and their roster is significantly better than that of the NYG.

Kyler is a lot better than Rosen. I dont even think Rosen is backup material. AZ messed up so bad drafting him. Maybe Wilks will get another chance but CLE isnt in love with him either. I think he just sucks as a coach.

Another season would be a ...well would be a Giants move and it's time to turn that page.

What’s weird about what’s transpired is that it looks like the best HC hired in 2018 was Frank Reich, who was a stopgap rush hire after McDaniels withdrew from the Colts agreement. (How’s that decision look now, Josh?)

So the entire NFL had some problems assembling a short list of HC candidates. Shurmur was the number one pick of the Cards, probably why Mara was forced to give him a 5-year contract, and the guy they hired instead was fired after just one season. Shurm has been a disaster, which is in retrospect a surprise given his solid credentials, and Patricia is on the hot seat.

Boy, forget the Giants, the NFL hiring process sure seems like it’s broken.

The Giants fire Shurmur, hire a new head coach, and keep Gettleman.

Now you have everyone on both sides of the ball in a new system. There will be considerable ramp up, so if there is a significant talent, coaching, or if it's ramp issue, it will be impossible to differentiate.

The Giants either need to see this thing through for 3 years and make a fair assessment on Gettleman and Shurmur, or make up their minds now and fire both.

But it has become obvious that the HC must go.....

No progress.....actually regression by many players. Players are not place to succeed but to fail

Still confused on assignments

Simple play calls and game management and half time adjustmebts.....all are mismanaged

In comment 14700811 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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In comment 14700810 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: when he knows he made a mistake and not allowing a bad decision to continue. So why should we keep Shurmur? I’m not a DG apologist.

Didn’t infer you were. Post was on the theme suggested.

The question is which of the players we have can improve enough to be part of the future and which need to be replaced.

In comment 14700855 fkap said:

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hiring them is. Every year some people have the mindset that no one good is out there to hire. Every year there is coaching turnover in the league. Every year some of the new hires succeed and some fail.

Exactly this, hiring bad coaches is the problem

In comment 14700925 BillT said:

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The question is which of the players we have can improve enough to be part of the future and which need to be replaced.

Sorry wrong thread!

For the sake of stability offers an organization nothing. If you know a coach/GM is not working the only thing holding onto them does is prolong the issue. It's clear PS cannot do the job of an NFL head coach, so why wait longer?

In comment 14700815 V.I.G. said:

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That have the fail hat trick of: Putting shit talent on the field Mismanaging the cap Hiring beta male HCs

Your number three is idiotic. Many of the best coaches in NFL history were what you would call a beta male. What are you going to do next? Call Shurmur a cuck? The key to winning is not getting some roided out, yelling ex-jock. You should keep your psycho sexual issues to yourself

Do they have a separate GM and Head Coach? I think they do and it works for them.

The issue here is Mara wanted to keep Eli. He based his hire on whether the GM thought Eli could still play. They weren't entirely wrong but the decisions the last 2 years have been base on Eli remaining a Giant and trying to compete during these years. It didn't work out and now we are paying the price.

Now try to determine who's fault it is and I think fault needs to be shared.

1. Reese and Ross. Horrible drafts with poor OL selection and failure to find an NFL LB's and reaching for misfit players is the main problem. You can't fix 10 years of horrible drafts in 2 off seasons. Sorry can't do it.

2. Mara. Keeping Eli because of how Wellington regretted cutting Simms in 1994 is just sentimental suicide. Eli is and will be an all time great Giant. He did not need to be on the bench making $23 Million having a first row seat to this shit show.

3. Gettlemen. Hiring Shurmur was a bad move. He has not proven track record of winning as a head coach. The Case Keenum success be damned, he had done very little in the NFL prior.

4. Bettcher. Signing all your old players to learn your confusing defense hasn't helped. We don't have Honey Badger, Chandler Jones and Patrick Peterson on this team. You need talent and other than Golden, all the old Cardinals suck.

Lots of blame to go around. Either way Mara will still be CEO so he stays.

Gettlemen will get one more chance. I'm 51% for it but only because I think Shurmur and Bettcher have forced their systems down the players throats to a fault.

We can't convert a 3rd and 1 but other teams can convert 3rd and 13 and 4th and 10. That is coaching all day, 24/7/365.

Fire the staff. Keep the GM. Draft Chase Young.

In comment 14700825 Eric from BBI said:

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Dan Reeves one year too long was a NYG move.

This. Everyone knew that Reeves was not going to work out after the cracks showed in 1994 (BBI would have imploded if it was around back then- win 3, lose 7, win 6). Reeves started pushing back on George Young even though he agreed to the structure in 1993 to get a job. Once the wheels came off in 1995 when Dallas pounded the Giants on that Monday Night opener and they finished 5-11, we all knew Reeves was done. But the Giants trotted him out there in 1996 even though everyone knew he was a lame duck. Predictably the Giants had another losing season (6-10) and Reeves was fired. Fassel came in and turned it around in 1997. But Reeves was held on for a year too long for no reason. And at least Reeves had a track record of success to somewhat fall back on (though the Giants did it because they didn't want to pay him to sit at home for 2 years). Shurmur is what he is.

Honestly, to me, the moment I knew that Shurmur was not going to work out here was the Philly game in Philly last year. The Giants didn't have an advantage over pretty much anyone last year. But that wasn't the case in Philly. The Eagles were reeling and they were completely beat up with a whole new secondary. Saquon was running all over them and they couldn't stop him. He got the ball 15 times for 131 yards and 2 TDs. And after the half, he gave the ball to Barkley 4 times the rest of the game. Predictably, the Giants folded in the 2nd half and lost. But to me, in that game, I saw all I needed to see from Shurmur. I was weary of him coming in from Cleveland before, but from that game I knew this guy was an idiot and a placeholder until we get a real coach in here. If the Giants can crash and burn and hand off a top draft pick, good cap situation and some young talent at QB and RB to a new coach who knows what the hell they are doing, the Giants can start to make noise again. But like Reeves going into 1996, there is no reason to waste another year on Shurmur.

In comment 14700963 Matt in SGS said:

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In comment 14700825 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Dan Reeves one year too long was a NYG move. This. Everyone knew that Reeves was not going to work out after the cracks showed in 1994 (BBI would have imploded if it was around back then- win 3, lose 7, win 6). Reeves started pushing back on George Young even though he agreed to the structure in 1993 to get a job. Once the wheels came off in 1995 when Dallas pounded the Giants on that Monday Night opener and they finished 5-11, we all knew Reeves was done. But the Giants trotted him out there in 1996 even though everyone knew he was a lame duck. Predictably the Giants had another losing season (6-10) and Reeves was fired. Fassel came in and turned it around in 1997. But Reeves was held on for a year too long for no reason. And at least Reeves had a track record of success to somewhat fall back on (though the Giants did it because they didn't want to pay him to sit at home for 2 years). Shurmur is what he is. Honestly, to me, the moment I knew that Shurmur was not going to work out here was the Philly game in Philly last year. The Giants didn't have an advantage over pretty much anyone last year. But that wasn't the case in Philly. The Eagles were reeling and they were completely beat up with a whole new secondary. Saquon was running all over them and they couldn't stop him. He got the ball 15 times for 131 yards and 2 TDs. And after the half, he gave the ball to Barkley 4 times the rest of the game. Predictably, the Giants folded in the 2nd half and lost. But to me, in that game, I saw all I needed to see from Shurmur. I was weary of him coming in from Cleveland before, but from that game I knew this guy was an idiot and a placeholder until we get a real coach in here. If the Giants can crash and burn and hand off a top draft pick, good cap situation and some young talent at QB and RB to a new coach who knows what the hell they are doing, the Giants can start to make noise again. But like Reeves going into 1996, there is no reason to waste another year on Shurmur.

Matt, the Philly game is what I was referencing above with the inexplicable disappearance of Barkley. There was no reason why Barkley didn't hang 200 on the Eagles. Shurmur somehow managed to forget that Barkley was on the roster.

There have been other missteps with game management, play calling, time outs, etc. But if I was to circle and point out the singular failure of Shurmur, it would be the Eagles game.

In comment 14700825 Eric from BBI said:

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Dan Reeves one year too long was a NYG move.

Exactly.

We now have a season where every 2nd year player is playing worse than last year. Have we even seen in-season improvement from anyone? Jabril was perhaps the only one.

If a couple players were worse, we could blame the talent more, but everyone? Barkley, Hernandez, Carter, McIntosh . . . They all at least flashed talent or in Barkley's case had an incredible season. Now they all look hesitant, lost, undisciplined. That is a huge indictment on the coaching.

In business, the company executives can usually see if a leader is capable of driving change in a reasonably short period of time. Most will give a year to expect to see "momentum" or some degree of improvement. After a second year it's expected that we see real results, in this regard maybe a 7-9, 8-8 team. I think this does transfer to any position of leadership, pro team coach or big business leader. In year 2, the team has regressed in so many areas and although we can blame talent in some instances, we are seeing poorer performance from players that were here last year (OL, LB, RB...etc). Shumur is not calling great plays or at least plays that leverage the skills of his players. Some of his calls are real head scratchers (or remote throwing calls...). As I watch him and his coaches perform, I see a group that would at best be an 8-8 team even with the best players at every position. He is not a leader; he has a good football mind as a coordinator or assistant, but not a leader. The notion that waiting beyond this year to make a change does not make sense to me. If we do that, we will see the same shitty performance next year. All coaches save a couple need to go after this year.

dumbest thing I've ever heard.

In comment 14700963 Matt in SGS said:

Quote:

In comment 14700825 Eric from BBI said: Quote: Dan Reeves one year too long was a NYG move. This. Everyone knew that Reeves was not going to work out after the cracks showed in 1994 (BBI would have imploded if it was around back then- win 3, lose 7, win 6). Reeves started pushing back on George Young even though he agreed to the structure in 1993 to get a job. Once the wheels came off in 1995 when Dallas pounded the Giants on that Monday Night opener and they finished 5-11, we all knew Reeves was done. But the Giants trotted him out there in 1996 even though everyone knew he was a lame duck. Predictably the Giants had another losing season (6-10) and Reeves was fired. Fassel came in and turned it around in 1997. But Reeves was held on for a year too long for no reason. And at least Reeves had a track record of success to somewhat fall back on (though the Giants did it because they didn't want to pay him to sit at home for 2 years). Shurmur is what he is. Honestly, to me, the moment I knew that Shurmur was not going to work out here was the Philly game in Philly last year. The Giants didn't have an advantage over pretty much anyone last year. But that wasn't the case in Philly. The Eagles were reeling and they were completely beat up with a whole new secondary. Saquon was running all over them and they couldn't stop him. He got the ball 15 times for 131 yards and 2 TDs. And after the half, he gave the ball to Barkley 4 times the rest of the game. Predictably, the Giants folded in the 2nd half and lost. But to me, in that game, I saw all I needed to see from Shurmur. I was weary of him coming in from Cleveland before, but from that game I knew this guy was an idiot and a placeholder until we get a real coach in here. If the Giants can crash and burn and hand off a top draft pick, good cap situation and some young talent at QB and RB to a new coach who knows what the hell they are doing, the Giants can start to make noise again. But like Reeves going into 1996, there is no reason to waste another year on Shurmur.

This is perfectly said. Shurmur has shown his largest red flags when it comes to understanding game flow, momentum and going to what works. In my opinion, misdirection in play calls have given this O the greatest opportunity to move the ball and push Jones to be decisive, quickly. Mixing that up to keep a pash rush on their toes, not allow an D to run downhill to stop the run, etc would be one of the greatest advantages to have a mobile QB (see Rodgers this week). Yet he does it so infrequently and at the wrong times. He simply is in over his head and it shows in every game in different ways.

Perception of us don’t matter to me. This man is not the man for the job I’ll say it till I’m blue in the face.

In comment 14700825 Eric from BBI said:

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Dan Reeves one year too long was a NYG move.

This. Why keep someone on board who isn't the answer to fix it.

In comment 14700950 AndyMilligan said:

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In comment 14700815 V.I.G. said: Quote: That have the fail hat trick of: Putting shit talent on the field Mismanaging the cap Hiring beta male HCs Your number three is idiotic. Many of the best coaches in NFL history were what you would call a beta male. What are you going to do next? Call Shurmur a cuck? The key to winning is not getting some roided out, yelling ex-jock. You should keep your psycho sexual issues to yourself

Andy - I agree. Please let me clarify... What I meant as beta male is that the GMs wanted a HC that knew that the GM calls the shots. So a beta coach to an alpha GM.
///

///
And DG is an alpha GM that only takes his own counsel.

Was a browns like move

You don't worry about optics and compound the problem with indecision. It's over. Next man up.

In comment 14700840 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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What's your point? We are the Browns.

correction -- going 5-11 making a bunch of changes and then going 2-10 is exactly like the Browns

more of the same is exactly like the Browns

fuk that chit

I think the pros outweigh the cons at this point. He's obviously not the guy.

negative. the giants are awful on the field. The crowd roars off with their heads. The mob action of the 21st century. Any different more aimed response is shouted down.

Having said that I agree with all, this is one of the worst giant teams i have rooted for since 1947. What are my “positive” or “ different suggestions? If the problem is ownership which it at least in part is, we can only hope fan/media pressure can get one Mara to improve on Chris MAra in the personnel area.

But to argue the talent is terrible on the field is terrible i think is wrong. Yes some acquisitions may have been, but that is true on every NFL team. The overall talent is above average, minus a game changer on defense. If that is close to correct than coaching is a problem. NOt to defend PS, but he should be kept for the continuity on offense. What must change is Hunter and play calling. We need better offensive line coaching, PS must concentrate on other matters during the game and either a new OC with power must be installed or at a minimum a new play caller.

On D, I either leave Bettcher for another year & demand he improve his assistant coaches in the secondary. We must get a game changer on defense. There aren’t any LTs out there but we need the closest facsimile either in the draft or unlikely as a FA. Without this we will be doomed to mediocrity for some time.

I think DG has done a good job with Abrams in the front office it it will take time to fully evaluate this. George Young’s greatness wasn’t acknowledged by fans for more than three years.

under him.

If the offensive line is terrible week after week, and nothing is done about it, then that falls on the head coach, considering that he hired Hal Hunter, and that he has done nothing to address the issues.

Your losses. He’s not fit to be a head coach

In comment 14700824 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

In comment 14700818 broadbandz said: Quote: gave Wilks one season and move on. If a guy sucks it's easy to see over the course of one season. AZ was right. Just because the Browns did something doesn't mean it's the wrong thing for another team to do. They did the same thing with Rosen. And as much as people want to love on what Kingsbury has done there in AZ...the Cards are 3-8-1 this season and their roster is significantly better than that of the NYG.

Can you imagine a Shurmur-coached team playing in the NFC West? Good God, best not to think about it.

scheme in the pass game. DJ's YPA is terrible and I don't think its all on him honestly, PS loves to create completion percentage. This is the worst overall coaching staff in football. I seriously don't think the talent is 3 -13 bad. Probably more like 6-10.

And hiring "outside organization" people. Outside the "family". Different philosphy and views. Enough "half-assed" ways fire one and keep one only to be fired a few seasons.

Mara let outsider football knowledgable people handle it and turn this thing around. No more of this constant bs

In comment 14701017 BLUATHRT said:

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This is perfectly said. Shurmur has shown his largest red flags when it comes to understanding game flow, momentum and going to what works. In my opinion, misdirection in play calls have given this O the greatest opportunity to move the ball and push Jones to be decisive, quickly. Mixing that up to keep a pash rush on their toes, not allow an D to run downhill to stop the run, etc would be one of the greatest advantages to have a mobile QB (see Rodgers this week). Yet he does it so infrequently and at the wrong times. He simply is in over his head and it shows in every game in different ways.

I can think of few contrasts that are as stark as watching the Giants vs watching the Ravens. The Ravens seem absolutely confident in and committed to how they play, what they do and value... an entire team concept, ethic, philosophy, etc. That is not merely the result of drafting and signing players. THAT is where you see the value of a coaching staff.

I didn't even realize until recently that in addition to Roman, the Ravens have an assistant head coach who also functions as a "passing coordinator." Is that as unusual as I think it is?

If he was available this offseason I'm not sure he would even get a coordinator job and theres no chance he would even get an interview for a HC opening.

So why exactly should the Giants keep this clown? Don't you strive for better?

Two horrendous head coaching decisions, that is on OWNERSHIP, they are the reason we suck. Does it change, if we do nothing we keep a head coach that we know stinks, how is that a good decision? No matter how you twist it the entire situation id because we have a horrible owner that is lost. We have lived off the Parcells era, the only decent move outside of the Parcells coaching tree was Fassel. He did a pretty good job, his level of competency would be welcomed at this point, that is how far we have fallen. You have to have the right people doing the job, Gettleman was another horrible decision because this ownership is so afraid to go outside their comfort zone.

There is no bad decision in changing this head coach, he is the worst head coach in the game, this team is not a 2-10 team, they are with this coaching staff, you get a good coaching staff with this team, using the players correctly this team could win 6 or 7 games, maybe even 8. That is how pathetic this coaching staff is, so making that change is a no brainer. They will never fire Gettleman, a man who has cancer at the age of 69, whose performance has been horrible, but that is how pathetic this ownership is. They rode Parcells and Coughlin, that is the only reason this organization has had any success, and that was due to the NFL forcing them to hire George Young, and they were forced the bullshit about they wanted him is all bullshit, he fit the bill for their conservative ways, but other then that it had little to do with them knowing what the fuck they were doing.

I think he's made enough bad decisions to demonstrate that he's not only not the answer, he's not a head coach. I mean he's made some calls that has left people truly dumbfounded. Sometimes there is a silver lining when you get these touted coordinators. Even if the team overall is underperforming, you usually see their footprint in their offense or defense and see it excel. I don't see that here. This offense is terrible, almost unwatchable. We have no identity and no improvement. The offensive line certainly is trash and it's puzzling how they are that bad, but there's enough weapons to put some points and we just don't.

I don't think his comment that we're getting better behind the scenes is that stupid, but the end result is that the on the field production is getting worse. To think that the highlight of giants football the past 3 years was after the bye last year where we were competitive with Jamon Brown, Spencer Pulley, and the worst RT I ever seen, Chad Wheeler. It's mind blowing.

I was on board with him until the Cards game, but that was the final straw and no game since then has made me rethink that. He needs to go. Someone mentioned DG's willingness to not make a bad decision worse and cut your losses. Here is a prime example. Let him go. Ownership has plenty of money. It should not be a factor in retaining him and I'm sure they are losing money on merch and concession sales anyhow because no one wants to go to see this mess.

path is a Bengals kind of move...granted Marvin Lewis got more than one win out of his team.

than to let him go after 2 seasons. He has 2 absolutely putrid seasons here where young players are not improving or developing, there seems to be no clear plan for the team, there are no in game adjustments, they can't utilize one of the best players in the league in Barkley because we run nearly all of our offense out of the gun, our team consistently looks ill prepared on both sides of the ball, etc. Now, couple that with his already dreadful resume in Cleveland and I would say there is more than enough to justify canning him.

Crap! And that’s what it is... worse team in football and some want to keep the HC who has won 16 games in his career.

The Giants have never looked this bad ! Yes they had bad time periods but there was no social media and expanded TV coverage back then.

Bringing him back is bad business !

In comment 14701031 V.I.G. said:

Quote:

In comment 14700950 AndyMilligan said: Quote: In comment 14700815 V.I.G. said: Quote: That have the fail hat trick of: Putting shit talent on the field Mismanaging the cap Hiring beta male HCs Your number three is idiotic. Many of the best coaches in NFL history were what you would call a beta male. What are you going to do next? Call Shurmur a cuck? The key to winning is not getting some roided out, yelling ex-jock. You should keep your psycho sexual issues to yourself Andy - I agree. Please let me clarify... What I meant as beta male is that the GMs wanted a HC that knew that the GM calls the shots. So a beta coach to an alpha GM. /// /// And DG is an alpha GM that only takes his own counsel.

gotcha.. yes i agree with that. sorry for my confusion

Is a Browns move. We need to fix that mistake.

The Giants will never fire him after firing Mac 2 seasons in. It is like we are inches from a SB if we only had a good coach.

but common sense should prevail. If it’s obvious Shurmur cannot Coach, then why bring him back another year. Ownership needs to admit there was a mistake and that they plan on getting a guy in here that will ultimately turn this program around. That will stem the tide IMO. The fans have their pitchforks out en masse!

In comment 14701996 Simms11 said:

Quote:

but common sense should prevail. If it’s obvious Shurmur cannot Coach, then why bring him back another year. Ownership needs to admit there was a mistake and that they plan on getting a guy in here that will ultimately turn this program around. That will stem the tide IMO. The fans have their pitchforks out en masse!

The optics are:

- Worst Team in the NFL since the start of the 2017 season
- 1 game away from being the worst team this season, including a 8 game losing streak and counting.
- Jenkins and Barkley are already questioning the coaching

There is no "respectable" move to be made here, this team is a sewer and the rot starts from the Maras in the organization making football decisions.