Firing Shurmur 2 seasons in is a Browns kind of move

and it’s never going to change. Rip the band aid off and move on.

we suck?

to just put another one on is really what makes the Browns the Browns ....

I don't think Shurmur is the answer either - but all these guys that seem to be available and are being mentioned as head coaching candidates for the NYG job - they don't seem like the answer either.

In comment 14700802 Poktown Pete said:

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we suck?

I’m fully aware that we suck

There's just too much left on the contract. I do think he's going to be forced to make changes to his staff. Things I would like to see: Get a QB coach, hand over play calling duties, get a new defensive coordinator.

when he knows he made a mistake and not allowing a bad decision to continue.

So why should we keep Shurmur?

In comment 14700810 Jimmy Googs said:

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when he knows he made a mistake and not allowing a bad decision to continue. So why should we keep Shurmur?

I’m not a DG apologist.

You can keep the guy for as long as you want, it won’t change who he is. Retaining Shurmur because you think firing him signals that this franchise is in bad shape is just compounding the error of hiring him. The franchise IS in bad shape. Shurmur is not solely responsible but he’s playing a big role.

The guy has a four year track record of losing. He has one of the worst records of all time. Move on and get the next one right.

That have the fail hat trick of:

Putting shit talent on the field
Mismanaging the cap
Hiring beta male HCs

gave Wilks one season and move on. If a guy sucks it's easy to see over the course of one season. AZ was right. Just because the Browns did something doesn't mean it's the wrong thing for another team to do.

Not grant it

Shurmur just needs more time, sure under his command the team has become the worst in the league. Sure, the team has not won a SINGLE game against a less than difficult schedule since September.

Let's give Shurmur more time. If you look realllllly close you can see that behind the scenes improvement coach is talking about.

I say two three more seasons for Shurmur and this team will be in a position to compete for 8 - 8.

In comment 14700818 broadbandz said:

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gave Wilks one season and move on. If a guy sucks it's easy to see over the course of one season. AZ was right. Just because the Browns did something doesn't mean it's the wrong thing for another team to do.

They did the same thing with Rosen. And as much as people want to love on what Kingsbury has done there in AZ...the Cards are 3-8-1 this season and their roster is significantly better than that of the NYG.

Dan Reeves one year too long was a NYG move.

TC too long also?

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But we have all seen that Shurmur isn’t even close to the answer. It’s best to move on

Cutting your losses

Making a decision on a coach based on whether it makes you look like the Browns, is a Brown's kind of move.

Because fans of other teams might laugh at you? Good thing you’re not running the team.

What's your point? We are the Browns.

Most names I’ve heard are not available.

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is public perception and continuity, then he'll only be a HC in title. I think there is a consensus that it isn't just Pat, but the entire staff (sans Special Teams) that need to go. Not just coordinators, but position coaches.

Part of me is conflicted because he seems like a genuinely nice guy. It would be so much easier if he was unlikable. But his record is indefensible. I was able to rationalize his record with the Browns as everyone loses with the Browns. Seeing what he accomplished as an OC with the Vikings and hearing what DG was preaching about the trenches, gave me some hope that the Giants would be able to turn the corner.

But giving Pat a clean slate, still hasn't cleansed the losing. We have witnessed questionable game management, the inexplicable disappearance ob Barkley after running at will in the first half, the regression at all positions, and the post-game excuses. Despite being a nice guy, he is not a HC.

Sorry, Pat. You tried. Enjoy your paid vacation and return as an OC.

anymore. A collaborative effort is great, until the results aren't up to expectations.

Your options now:
- Dump Shurmur - the team looks really bad, and there's reason to suspect coaching might be a factor. If you're Gettleman, you have reason to believe it's *the* factor.

- Retain Shurmur - if it actually is the coaching to blame, you run the risk of blowing the evaluation of the roster and both unfairly blaming your talent acquisition staff, as well as the talent as you try to fill holes in the roster. You could effectively be wasting talent.

- Dump both DG and Shurmur - you have no guarantee that the next batch is any better, and if there was any progress being made, it might be lost.

The last option is the least risky only because of the issues that retaining the current FO structure and staff presents. The Giants have been lousy for years - you'd need a coach that's willing to take that chance, who basically doesn't have any more attractive options. Assume Riley is in play and both the Giants and Cowboys have an opening - which are you taking?

Retaining Gettleman means that if the team continues to be lousy, you have nothing to do but move on the GM next. 2017 redux. It's Groundhog's Day, just that Gettleman and Shurmur are a lot less capable than their predecessors (Reese and TC).

You can only hope that Mara fires himself and his brother, takes a back seat, brings in a real football exec that he gives the reigns to for 3-5 years and butts out. I doubt that'll ever happen, but that's the hope.

hiring them is.

Every year some people have the mindset that no one good is out there to hire. Every year there is coaching turnover in the league. Every year some of the new hires succeed and some fail.

In comment 14700845 cosmicj said:

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In fairness to the Browns, they hired him with no HC book on him. The Giants hired him despite having an awful go around the first time.

all i know is i see some plays on offense that seem new to me,when the tackles are replaced and a full group of starting wr's are in the line up this will be a high scoring offense with the present day coaches. now for the defense, i think betcher's gotta go, even with quality talent i can't see his defense stopping anyone.he seems unable to adapt his game plan to developments occurring during game time.

so i say shurmur one more year and can't get betcher out of here quick enough.

and it is getting worse.

We are 10 and 34 in our last 44 games.

Our HC has won 17 out 45 games as a HC (which includes one interim HC'ing win against us!)

Our HC makes mind numbing in game decisions, seems clueless when things are not scripted or working at ease, no in game adjustment ability and his best players on offense seem to be regressing.

We have made horrible draft selections for the bulk of the last 8 years and a total tear down was needed- which we botched by believing our aging/aged QB was still good for another run eating up cap space and killing the drive of some other players who could see the legacy aspect of his starting position.

Now, we hear more excuses (that aren't excuses but are then made to sound like an excuse) and more we did good things in practice (BM said that a lot too) and we see progress with these guys outside of games...

It is time to really do what should have been done this year. Get rid of Eli, get rid of some bloated contracts with limited returns and build around DJ and SB on offense and get our young defensive players up to speed with some veteran (young veteran) additions.

The Browns-esque part of it is hiring shitty HCs that merit being fired after one or two seasons, not that they actually do fire them when they deserve it.

The Giants already made their Browns-esque move by hiring a bad HC. Keeping him to save face is worse.

Or you can be like Dnew and just resist change (and try to justify it) to the extent that it appears pathological.

But now the players seem to be questioning the coaching. I know its only Jenkins but once it starts its hard to get control back. Just looking at the utilization of the O, Barkley has been so mismanaged it's hard to believe that Shurmur knows how to manage his players.

I don't think the passing game can be totally on him because we havent had our pieces together all season. But there is no excuse for the way we use barkley game in and game out. As an offensive Guru and a guy that calls the plays it just makes no sense.

I also think we use Engram incorrectly. Our 2 best players on O are barkley and Engram and he cant figure out how to consistently get them the ball to utilize their strengths. I cant accept that.

We are in a terrible situation right now and its really bad to have to make a coaching change once again but I think it has to get done. On O if we get at least 2 good OL and a WR it should be a top O in the league next season.

On D we need a pass rush in the worst way and I think that will solve a lot of issues. I think Love will be a nice fit at Safety, I like what I have seen so far. If we get a Pass rusher in FA a MLB to replace Ogletree and draft a pass rusher I think we are in good shape.

I think a guy like Jim Harbaugh could have a lot of success with the young roster. I dont like the guy but I think he is a good coach. I dont know anything about Rhule but from what I have read he is a hard nosed guy. I also like Rex Ryan as a coach. Another guy I hate but at least he will get the D to play hard and maybe he can hire a competent OC to get this team back on track. We need a leader of men to get these guys playing to their potential.

the 49ers before Shanahan/Lynch came in that they fired their previous two coaches each after ONE season.

All of the stuff about incompetence and perception quickly gets wiped away to where its not even mentioned at all the moment the team wins some games.

In comment 14700821 JerryNicklebag said:

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Not grant it

Granite. :)

In comment 14700855 fkap said:

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hiring them is. Every year some people have the mindset that no one good is out there to hire. Every year there is coaching turnover in the league. Every year some of the new hires succeed and some fail.

Wisdom for the ages

In comment 14700845 cosmicj said:

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Shurmur getting within sniffing distance of the job is the startling thing.

I really wish I could have been there when I heard Shurmur outline his complete vision of how he would be the CEO of the team in his interview.

You watch him and you listen to him and you just come away wondering "WTF?"

I remember not even bothering to hear his introductory press conference because I didn't like the hire to start with. He has done nothing to change the initial perception.

I keep asking myself if Shurmur was simply the best choice out of terrible options the GM gave the owner. Or did the organization purposely not seek out the best candidates and sabotaged their own search from the start, leaving them with poor options to choose from.

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As far as the Giants go, it's the 1970s all over again.

Until there is major organizational change, this team will remain a cellar dweller.

George Young was the change that began the turnaround.

A similar change is needed now. Given the way the game is, that's probably a HC largely acting as GM.

I was in favor of keeping Shurmur one more year and if he fails, take DG with him.

I do think DG should get one more year...However, I'm not excited about keeping Shurmur.

We'd have to swap out his coaching staff and I'm not sure you'll get quality guys knowing they have 1 year.

Ideally, he'd take the OC job and let someone else be the HC...but I doubt that happens.

What makes some sense is to bring Coughlin (or other mentor) back as an advisor to work with Shurmur. Then evaluate the GM and Coach next year.

It's a mess!

In comment 14700824 Dnew15 said:

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In comment 14700818 broadbandz said: Quote: gave Wilks one season and move on. If a guy sucks it's easy to see over the course of one season. AZ was right. Just because the Browns did something doesn't mean it's the wrong thing for another team to do. They did the same thing with Rosen. And as much as people want to love on what Kingsbury has done there in AZ...the Cards are 3-8-1 this season and their roster is significantly better than that of the NYG.

Kyler is a lot better than Rosen. I dont even think Rosen is backup material. AZ messed up so bad drafting him. Maybe Wilks will get another chance but CLE isnt in love with him either. I think he just sucks as a coach.

Another season would be a ...well would be a Giants move and it's time to turn that page.

What’s weird about what’s transpired is that it looks like the best HC hired in 2018 was Frank Reich, who was a stopgap rush hire after McDaniels withdrew from the Colts agreement. (How’s that decision look now, Josh?)

So the entire NFL had some problems assembling a short list of HC candidates. Shurmur was the number one pick of the Cards, probably why Mara was forced to give him a 5-year contract, and the guy they hired instead was fired after just one season. Shurm has been a disaster, which is in retrospect a surprise given his solid credentials, and Patricia is on the hot seat.

Boy, forget the Giants, the NFL hiring process sure seems like it’s broken.

The Giants fire Shurmur, hire a new head coach, and keep Gettleman.

Now you have everyone on both sides of the ball in a new system. There will be considerable ramp up, so if there is a significant talent, coaching, or if it's ramp issue, it will be impossible to differentiate.

The Giants either need to see this thing through for 3 years and make a fair assessment on Gettleman and Shurmur, or make up their minds now and fire both.

But it has become obvious that the HC must go.....

No progress.....actually regression by many players. Players are not place to succeed but to fail

Still confused on assignments

Simple play calls and game management and half time adjustmebts.....all are mismanaged

In comment 14700811 BigBlueDownTheShore said:

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In comment 14700810 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: when he knows he made a mistake and not allowing a bad decision to continue. So why should we keep Shurmur? I’m not a DG apologist.

Didn’t infer you were. Post was on the theme suggested.

The question is which of the players we have can improve enough to be part of the future and which need to be replaced.

In comment 14700855 fkap said:

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hiring them is. Every year some people have the mindset that no one good is out there to hire. Every year there is coaching turnover in the league. Every year some of the new hires succeed and some fail.

Exactly this, hiring bad coaches is the problem

In comment 14700925 BillT said:

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The question is which of the players we have can improve enough to be part of the future and which need to be replaced.

Sorry wrong thread!

For the sake of stability offers an organization nothing. If you know a coach/GM is not working the only thing holding onto them does is prolong the issue. It's clear PS cannot do the job of an NFL head coach, so why wait longer?

In comment 14700815 V.I.G. said:

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That have the fail hat trick of: Putting shit talent on the field Mismanaging the cap Hiring beta male HCs

Your number three is idiotic. Many of the best coaches in NFL history were what you would call a beta male. What are you going to do next? Call Shurmur a cuck? The key to winning is not getting some roided out, yelling ex-jock. You should keep your psycho sexual issues to yourself

Do they have a separate GM and Head Coach? I think they do and it works for them.

The issue here is Mara wanted to keep Eli. He based his hire on whether the GM thought Eli could still play. They weren't entirely wrong but the decisions the last 2 years have been base on Eli remaining a Giant and trying to compete during these years. It didn't work out and now we are paying the price.

Now try to determine who's fault it is and I think fault needs to be shared.

1. Reese and Ross. Horrible drafts with poor OL selection and failure to find an NFL LB's and reaching for misfit players is the main problem. You can't fix 10 years of horrible drafts in 2 off seasons. Sorry can't do it.

2. Mara. Keeping Eli because of how Wellington regretted cutting Simms in 1994 is just sentimental suicide. Eli is and will be an all time great Giant. He did not need to be on the bench making $23 Million having a first row seat to this shit show.

3. Gettlemen. Hiring Shurmur was a bad move. He has not proven track record of winning as a head coach. The Case Keenum success be damned, he had done very little in the NFL prior.

4. Bettcher. Signing all your old players to learn your confusing defense hasn't helped. We don't have Honey Badger, Chandler Jones and Patrick Peterson on this team. You need talent and other than Golden, all the old Cardinals suck.

Lots of blame to go around. Either way Mara will still be CEO so he stays.

Gettlemen will get one more chance. I'm 51% for it but only because I think Shurmur and Bettcher have forced their systems down the players throats to a fault.

We can't convert a 3rd and 1 but other teams can convert 3rd and 13 and 4th and 10. That is coaching all day, 24/7/365.

Fire the staff. Keep the GM. Draft Chase Young.