Ominous quote from the "other" owner
Bruce Beck
@BruceBeck4NY
Steve Tisch - @Giants
Co-Owner - Its been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara & I are gonna get together & discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season. #Giants
I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?
From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.
The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.
They need to figure it out. And soon.
blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.
Does he have any ownership in the team? Can he be fired?
Chris is Wellington's son and an owner.
He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.
the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.
nope
the standard non-answer would be
"we don't make brash moves during the season" or " we Will examine the teams performance when the season is complete"
he said
"I need to have a very honest talk with mara"
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would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all.
I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?
From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.
The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.
They need to figure it out. And soon.
blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.
Marc Ross
He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom."
Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.
Great post. I think that sort of conversation cam be conducted in a completely professional and effective manner.
Here's hoping.
He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.
the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.
Gettleman needs to retire.
Tisch has plenty of motivation for the Giants to field a competitive team.
Optics are so bad though...Tisch could basically garner 100% fan support and this gets really, really, ugly. I think John is more sensible than Wellington and will make concessions. The problem is between Tisch and Mara we have two old farts who inherited $. Need an innovative approach here and i am not sure we get that.
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In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said:
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would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all.
I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?
From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.
The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.
They need to figure it out. And soon.
blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.
Marc Ross
Its organizational failure top to bottom. And the organization is infested with Maras.
The next day Sherman was fired. A sullen Mara said at the press conference, Sometime between 2am and 6am I reached my decision. There was no straw, no camels back. We just werent winning enough football games. The sole reason for our existence is to please our fans. If were not pleasing our fans weve got to find out why.
Its to easy to replace Sherman with Shurmur. All else is a repeat of history right down to the family names!
He is a buffoon, but at least he's a buffoon who knows he's a buffoon and would leave football decisions to football people. I hope he gets the John and Chris Mara out of personnel. I'd think at this point that would have to be his concern.
It's not that I want to ignore Tim's influence in what transpired, but he really wasn't a contributor from what I see, but a person had would just take the opposite side and not offer any solutions. But in causing the stalemate, he forced Rozelle to get involved, which lead to Geoge Young, so for that we can all be grateful.
Often times Tim was a contrarian, no doubt. He wasn't wrong to confront Wellington, but he could have handled it better and not taken it publically. If it had been handled behind closed doors much of the acrimony would likely have disipated over time.
All things considered, the Giants were one of the better franchises from 1980-2012. Sure, it was not always pleasant but they had many competitive teams with 4 Super Bowls. I think many franchises and fans would trade for that success.
The question that has to be answered honestly is what changed? That would be a good start for them to address honestly. We all have theories but those two need to listen to each other, present thoughts and hopefully agree the best course is have family members out of football operations.
I personally think what changed is they stopped drafting (or correctly identifying) physical, tough football players on both lines and linebackers. Seems a lot of the issues started when they went the WCO route as well.
I definitely thought PS is a goner but now I am leaning towards DG joining him.
The hope is that if Tisch is involved that Chris Mara follows.
One can dream...
From your keyboard to God's ears...
As long as those outside people can get rid of the Maras or move them to the side.
He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.
the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.
Persuasive
Tisch - you can do it. Time to clean house. Bring a football guy in here to run football ops and let him build this org back up.
The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence.
I hope that Tisch recognizes it and can convince Mara that DG was a competent scout, competent pro personnel head, but doesn’t have what it takes to be a GM.
So they must think outside the box and come up with a solution. Now is the time to think of everything and no matter how odd or radical something may seem they should investigate it's potential. If not now, when?
Its been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season.
Regarding Shurmur AND Gettleman:
Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning, its really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues
To the fans:
Im asking for patience. Im being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding and patient. I want Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.
Its been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season.
Regarding Shurmur AND Gettleman:
Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning, its really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues
To the fans:
Im asking for patience. Im being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding and patient. I want Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.
I didnt see the entire comment. Thanks.
The last part is so patronizing considering the length of this drought. Pales in comparison to what Tepper said today about the Panthers...
12/3/19, 1:44 PM
Steve Tischs message to @Giants fans - Im asking for patience. Im being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding & patient. I want #Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.
If you aren't putting together a decent football team next year that at least can threaten a playoff spot through the end of December, then prove it about wanting the fan to feel their voice is being heard. Fire the coaches and the GM if it doesn't happen.
BTW Steve, do you realize your GM doesn't give a damn about the fans? He lets everyone know that he has the resume and everyone else needs to shut up and bow before him.
"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.
I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.
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"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.
I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.
The isolated quote reads well, but people need to temper their praise of Tepper. I posted in the RR thread a quote from Tepper where he wants to influence the football decisions going forward. My response was to GT with no response back. While being a multi-billionaire owner gives him carte blanche to decide how he wants to run his business, my question is what qualifies him to make football decisions? If we want to bandy about cliches that the "fish rots from the head down" and rail against organizational dysfunction where the owner is making football decisions, why is it ok to apply that standard to Mara but not to Tepper?
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The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program.
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"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.
I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.
The isolated quote reads well, but people need to temper their praise of Tepper. I posted in the RR thread a quote from Tepper where he wants to influence the football decisions going forward. My response was to GT with no response back. While being a multi-billionaire owner gives him carte blanche to decide how he wants to run his business, my question is what qualifies him to make football decisions? If we want to bandy about cliches that the "fish rots from the head down" and rail against organizational dysfunction where the owner is making football decisions, why is it ok to apply that standard to Mara but not to Tepper?
Tepper wants to put his stamp on football decisions - ( New Window )
The owner said he wanted to make his mark, he didn't say he was going to personally start making football decisions.
If Mara and Tisch got more involved by hiring a group of football operatives to run this thing, that would be fucking awesome.
He is the Giants "Tommy Boy" who took over the family business when dad passed away.
Here is the evidence...
1. Jerry Reese & Marc Ross - Either too stupid to realize they were a big part of the problem when he fired Coughlin OR who knew his finger prints were all over their player selections too which is why he gave them another chance.
2. He could not make the decision himself when it comes to the new GM (and possibly the coach) so he basically hires Acorsi to make the decision for him.
3. He screwed up the Eli benching a few years ago. Mis-managed that whole event and got egg on his face. Made it seem that the decision was made via text messages... really? Why was the owner and GM telling the coach who to start on Sunday anyway?
4. He should have had a discussion with Coughlin well before the firing to make him the VP of football operations. Essentially the same job he has now in Jax. Then, Coughlin would be making all of these decisions instead of John. Now, in hindsight after seeing what Coughlin is doing in Jax, some may not like this idea but at that time I think we all would have been okay with it.
Many people are hoping Tisch forces Mara's plural to stop picking the players
The one thing I can't understand - when everyone knows that the Giants operate as a collective, countless pics of Coughlin at combines, talking draft picks, having had GM experience - why people see to still believe to this day that what he was missing here was personnel control.
Everyone got pissed that TC got it first - but it never occurred to them that maybe, it wasn't just for the coaching.
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Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess.
The one thing I can't understand - when everyone knows that the Giants operate as a collective, countless pics of Coughlin at combines, talking draft picks, having had GM experience - why people see to still believe to this day that what he was missing here was personnel control.
Everyone got pissed that TC got it first - but it never occurred to them that maybe, it wasn't just for the coaching.
Yeah, weird assumption Coughlin was responsible for the good and none of the bad.
The weirdness extends now to Gettleman.
It's almost as if someone can be good and bad at elements of their job at the same time.
They should pretty much have an idea of what they're going to do. Even if, they are not certain they'll fire Shurmur (which I think they have already decided they will) they should have a short list and hopefully and put out informal feelers re: interest
Strictly from a performance perspective of players and coaches on gameday, PS stinks at game management and playcalling, eg the reason(s) why he's in the role, and the team continues to blunder the same mistakes over and over. PS is clearly in over his head.
While I'd be surprised if they fired DG too, there's enough to suggest he's in over his head too. But, their history shows it would be unusual for them to can the GM too, especially after only two years.