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"As partners we have to be very honest with each other"

jlukes : 12/3/2019 1:57 pm
Ominous quote from the "other" owner


Bruce Beck
@BruceBeck4NY

Steve Tisch - @Giants
Co-Owner - Its been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara & I are gonna get together & discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season. #Giants
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RE: I think Tisch..  
Justlurking : 12/3/2019 6:09 pm : link
In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said:
Quote:
would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all.

I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?

From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.

The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.

They need to figure it out. And soon.


blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.
RE: I always thought Chris was John Mara's son.....  
BillT : 12/3/2019 6:11 pm : link
In comment 14701773 WideRight said:
Quote:

Does he have any ownership in the team? Can he be fired?

Chris is Wellington's son and an owner.
Wow , had no idea Mara has infested the Giants...  
WalterSobchak : 12/3/2019 6:11 pm : link
football side of the operation with a bunch of family member hacks. Get these leeching no talent Maras out of football operations . This fish rots from the head.
I think you guys are reading too much into this.  
Dave on the UWS : 12/3/2019 6:13 pm : link
They always talk after the season, and Tisch is going to go in there and say Im not happy, the fans arent happy, how are we going to fix things? If he has ANY clue, he will know that the current organization structure is t working. Im betting it will be just fire Shurmur. Who really knows how closely he follows things and how astute he is about the football business side of things. Thats the question.
This seems like another Tim vs. Well showdown.  
No Where Man : 12/3/2019 6:15 pm : link
.
really clear  
huygens20 : 12/3/2019 6:30 pm : link
that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations.


He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.

the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.
RE: I think you guys are reading too much into this.  
huygens20 : 12/3/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14701815 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
They always talk after the season, and Tisch is going to go in there and say Im not happy, the fans arent happy, how are we going to fix things? If he has ANY clue, he will know that the current organization structure is t working. Im betting it will be just fire Shurmur. Who really knows how closely he follows things and how astute he is about the football business side of things. Thats the question.


nope

the standard non-answer would be

"we don't make brash moves during the season" or " we Will examine the teams performance when the season is complete"


he said

"I need to have a very honest talk with mara"


RE: RE: I think Tisch..  
huygens20 : 12/3/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14701809 Justlurking said:
Quote:
In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said:


Quote:


would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all.

I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?

From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.

The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.

They need to figure it out. And soon.



blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.


Marc Ross
Tisch can't do a thing  
HomerJones45 : 12/3/2019 6:40 pm : link
We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.
RE: Tisch can't do a thing  
81_Great_Dane : 12/3/2019 6:56 pm : link
In comment 14701845 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.
True, but as a 50-50 owner, he can block any moves by the other 50-50 owner. It's a bad ownership structure for sure, but 50-50 means they both have power. Tisch can do what Tim Mara did and create a deadlock, which hopefully forces a compromise. The league stepped in with a compromise GM, George Young, when Tim Mara did it. I don't expect to get lucky that way again but as the saying goes, nothing changes if nothing changes.
RE: Steve Tisch doesn't have to BE the savior.  
santacruzom : 12/3/2019 7:00 pm : link
In comment 14701340 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
He just has to DEMAND a savior.

He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom."

Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.


Great post. I think that sort of conversation cam be conducted in a completely professional and effective manner.

Here's hoping.
RE: really clear  
Justlurking : 12/3/2019 7:01 pm : link
In comment 14701833 huygens20 said:
Quote:
that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations.


He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.

the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.


Gettleman needs to retire.
...  
christian : 12/3/2019 7:03 pm : link
That photo of empty seats Sunday has a price tag. Those tickets might have sold, but plastic chairs don't eat dogs, drink beer, and buy jerseys.

Tisch has plenty of motivation for the Giants to field a competitive team.
RE: Tisch can't do a thing  
Justlurking : 12/3/2019 7:08 pm : link
In comment 14701845 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.


Optics are so bad though...Tisch could basically garner 100% fan support and this gets really, really, ugly. I think John is more sensible than Wellington and will make concessions. The problem is between Tisch and Mara we have two old farts who inherited $. Need an innovative approach here and i am not sure we get that.
RE: RE: RE: I think Tisch..  
Justlurking : 12/3/2019 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14701837 huygens20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14701809 Justlurking said:


Quote:


In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said:


Quote:


would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all.

I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?

From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.

The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.

They need to figure it out. And soon.



blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.



Marc Ross


Its organizational failure top to bottom. And the organization is infested with Maras.
The most telling statement in  
Adirondack GMen : 12/3/2019 7:20 pm : link
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2016/08/07/wilderness-years-new-york-giants-1964-1978/

The next day Sherman was fired. A sullen Mara said at the press conference, Sometime between 2am and 6am I reached my decision. There was no straw, no camels back. We just werent winning enough football games. The sole reason for our existence is to please our fans. If were not pleasing our fans weve got to find out why.

Its to easy to replace Sherman with Shurmur. All else is a repeat of history right down to the family names!
RE: I'd feel better about this  
FStubbs : 12/3/2019 8:05 pm : link
In comment 14701301 Matt M. said:
Quote:
if Tisch wasn't a fucking buffoon himself.


He is a buffoon, but at least he's a buffoon who knows he's a buffoon and would leave football decisions to football people. I hope he gets the John and Chris Mara out of personnel. I'd think at this point that would have to be his concern.
RE: sure thing Larry.  
truebluelarry : 12/3/2019 8:05 pm : link
In comment 14701549 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
Sorry I didn't include the link in my reply to arniefez myself. I had to jump on a call.

It's not that I want to ignore Tim's influence in what transpired, but he really wasn't a contributor from what I see, but a person had would just take the opposite side and not offer any solutions. But in causing the stalemate, he forced Rozelle to get involved, which lead to Geoge Young, so for that we can all be grateful.


Often times Tim was a contrarian, no doubt. He wasn't wrong to confront Wellington, but he could have handled it better and not taken it publically. If it had been handled behind closed doors much of the acrimony would likely have disipated over time.
Larry that sounds nice  
arniefez : 12/3/2019 8:07 pm : link
but he fought with Wellington for a decade before anyone outside the Giants knew about it. It was kept silent in media and Tim J never made a public issue of it until after the fumble. Again the rush to anoint saint Wellington never ends.
RE: This at least opens up constuctive  
FStubbs : 12/3/2019 8:08 pm : link
In comment 14701801 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
dialogue you hope.

All things considered, the Giants were one of the better franchises from 1980-2012. Sure, it was not always pleasant but they had many competitive teams with 4 Super Bowls. I think many franchises and fans would trade for that success.

The question that has to be answered honestly is what changed? That would be a good start for them to address honestly. We all have theories but those two need to listen to each other, present thoughts and hopefully agree the best course is have family members out of football operations.

I personally think what changed is they stopped drafting (or correctly identifying) physical, tough football players on both lines and linebackers. Seems a lot of the issues started when they went the WCO route as well.

I definitely thought PS is a goner but now I am leaning towards DG joining him.







The hope is that if Tisch is involved that Chris Mara follows.
RE: Hopefully Tisch hates Gettleman  
bw in dc : 12/3/2019 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14701792 The_Boss said:
Quote:
And wants him, along with the Shurminator, gone.

One can dream...


From your keyboard to God's ears...
I have a growing feeling this ends with Shurmur getting fired  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/3/2019 9:03 pm : link
& Gettleman 'retiring' & with outside people being brought it. The drumbeat is growing louder with every loss.
RE: I have a growing feeling this ends with Shurmur getting fired  
FStubbs : 12/3/2019 9:18 pm : link
In comment 14702001 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
& Gettleman 'retiring' & with outside people being brought it. The drumbeat is growing louder with every loss.


As long as those outside people can get rid of the Maras or move them to the side.
I just chimed in to say  
Keaton028 : 12/3/2019 9:19 pm : link
lots of really, really excellent football conversation going on here. Posts like these represent the forum at its very best. Well done to all who contributed on this thread.
The Well Mara/Dolan Comparisons  
clatterbuck : 12/3/2019 9:29 pm : link
are entirely unfair. Mara was devoted to the team and cared about the product, the players, about winning and cared about the fans. He was loyal to a fault to players, former players and coaches, the Giants "family." He got stuck in time and couldn't adjust to changes in the game and had a hard time adapting to modern management. But it was his family life's work.




RE: really clear  
V.I.G. : 12/3/2019 9:48 pm : link
In comment 14701833 huygens20 said:
Quote:
that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations.


He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.

the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.

Persuasive
Please god  
TD : 12/3/2019 9:58 pm : link
Fire Chris Mara, DG and Shurmur.

Tisch - you can do it. Time to clean house. Bring a football guy in here to run football ops and let him build this org back up.
Tisch’s experiences away from football can be valuable here  
V.I.G. : 12/3/2019 10:10 pm : link
He’s certainly well aware of the Peter Principle

The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence.

I hope that Tisch recognizes it and can convince Mara that DG was a competent scout, competent pro personnel head, but doesn’t have what it takes to be a GM.
I think the great irony is  
moespree : 12/3/2019 10:26 pm : link
Bill Belichick would very much be the closest thing to the George Young/Bill Parcells of this era. The guy who steps in and cleans everything up and puts the team back on the winning track. Now I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening of course.

So they must think outside the box and come up with a solution. Now is the time to think of everything and no matter how odd or radical something may seem they should investigate it's potential. If not now, when?
I am curious  
Chef : 12/3/2019 10:31 pm : link
if anyone knows Bill B's contract status? Why is it such forgone conclusion?
Tisch's full comments  
.McL. : 12/3/2019 11:58 pm : link
Regarding ownership:
Its been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season.

Regarding Shurmur AND Gettleman:
Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning, its really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues

To the fans:
Im asking for patience. Im being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding and patient. I want Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.
RE: Tisch's full comments  
bw in dc : 12/4/2019 1:08 am : link
In comment 14702115 .McL. said:
Quote:
Regarding ownership:
Its been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season.

Regarding Shurmur AND Gettleman:
Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning, its really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues

To the fans:
Im asking for patience. Im being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding and patient. I want Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.


I didnt see the entire comment. Thanks.

The last part is so patronizing considering the length of this drought. Pales in comparison to what Tepper said today about the Panthers...
RE: Patience  
giantstock : 12/4/2019 1:10 am : link
In comment 14701296 Defenderdawg said:
Quote:
Bruce Beck (@BruceBeck4NY)
12/3/19, 1:44 PM
Steve Tischs message to ⁦‪@Giants‬⁩ fans - Im asking for patience. Im being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding & patient. I want #Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.


If you aren't putting together a decent football team next year that at least can threaten a playoff spot through the end of December, then prove it about wanting the fan to feel their voice is being heard. Fire the coaches and the GM if it doesn't happen.

BTW Steve, do you realize your GM doesn't give a damn about the fans? He lets everyone know that he has the resume and everyone else needs to shut up and bow before him.
Gettleman's resume is getting worse by the week  
Go Terps : 12/4/2019 2:33 am : link
And it wasn't great to begin with.
That David Tepper statement  
Justlurking : 12/4/2019 7:04 am : link
Is what we need. Maras loser apologist quotes are pathetic. Tisch better back his words up
...  
christian : 12/4/2019 7:12 am : link
The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program.

Quote:

"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.


I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.
RE: ...  
Diver_Down : 12/4/2019 7:20 am : link
In comment 14702212 christian said:
Quote:
The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program.



Quote:



"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.



I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.


The isolated quote reads well, but people need to temper their praise of Tepper. I posted in the RR thread a quote from Tepper where he wants to influence the football decisions going forward. My response was to GT with no response back. While being a multi-billionaire owner gives him carte blanche to decide how he wants to run his business, my question is what qualifies him to make football decisions? If we want to bandy about cliches that the "fish rots from the head down" and rail against organizational dysfunction where the owner is making football decisions, why is it ok to apply that standard to Mara but not to Tepper?
RE: RE: ...  
Diver_Down : 12/4/2019 7:22 am : link
In comment 14702215 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14702212 christian said:


Quote:


The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program.



Quote:



"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.



I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.



The isolated quote reads well, but people need to temper their praise of Tepper. I posted in the RR thread a quote from Tepper where he wants to influence the football decisions going forward. My response was to GT with no response back. While being a multi-billionaire owner gives him carte blanche to decide how he wants to run his business, my question is what qualifies him to make football decisions? If we want to bandy about cliches that the "fish rots from the head down" and rail against organizational dysfunction where the owner is making football decisions, why is it ok to apply that standard to Mara but not to Tepper?

Tepper wants to put his stamp on football decisions - ( New Window )
...  
christian : 12/4/2019 7:28 am : link
It's reported Carolina will convene a committee to hire their next coach, and add a head of football operations.

The owner said he wanted to make his mark, he didn't say he was going to personally start making football decisions.

If Mara and Tisch got more involved by hiring a group of football operatives to run this thing, that would be fucking awesome.
I just do not see any way this gets fixed until..  
EricJ : 12/4/2019 7:31 am : link
the team is managed by someone other than John Mara. I think the guy is polished, well groomed and speaks well. However, he is an empty suit when it comes to running a football team.

He is the Giants "Tommy Boy" who took over the family business when dad passed away.

Here is the evidence...

1. Jerry Reese & Marc Ross - Either too stupid to realize they were a big part of the problem when he fired Coughlin OR who knew his finger prints were all over their player selections too which is why he gave them another chance.

2. He could not make the decision himself when it comes to the new GM (and possibly the coach) so he basically hires Acorsi to make the decision for him.

3. He screwed up the Eli benching a few years ago. Mis-managed that whole event and got egg on his face. Made it seem that the decision was made via text messages... really? Why was the owner and GM telling the coach who to start on Sunday anyway?

4. He should have had a discussion with Coughlin well before the firing to make him the VP of football operations. Essentially the same job he has now in Jax. Then, Coughlin would be making all of these decisions instead of John. Now, in hindsight after seeing what Coughlin is doing in Jax, some may not like this idea but at that time I think we all would have been okay with it.
...  
christian : 12/4/2019 7:43 am : link
Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess.
You had me until #4  
arniefez : 12/4/2019 7:44 am : link
Tom Coughlin is a disaster as a football exec/GM. He just destroyed Jacksonville for the 2nd time.
Tisch's comment not only bodes poorly  
Section331 : 12/4/2019 9:03 am : link
for Shurmur, but possibly for the Mara's unimpeded hand in operations too. At some point the Tisch's are going to step in and point out that operational incompetence is impacting them financially.
If you want Tisch to get more involved with the 'Football side' of the  
Dinger : 12/4/2019 3:32 pm : link
operation, then you most likely havent seen what Dolan has done to the Knicks. Dolan=Tisch.
Not a single post about anyone wanting Tisch to pick players  
arniefez : 12/4/2019 3:36 pm : link
and Tisch isn't like Dolan in any way personally or professionally.

Many people are hoping Tisch forces Mara's plural to stop picking the players
RE: ...  
jcn56 : 12/4/2019 3:49 pm : link
In comment 14702228 christian said:
Quote:
Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess.


The one thing I can't understand - when everyone knows that the Giants operate as a collective, countless pics of Coughlin at combines, talking draft picks, having had GM experience - why people see to still believe to this day that what he was missing here was personnel control.

Everyone got pissed that TC got it first - but it never occurred to them that maybe, it wasn't just for the coaching.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/4/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14703098 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14702228 christian said:


Quote:


Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess.



The one thing I can't understand - when everyone knows that the Giants operate as a collective, countless pics of Coughlin at combines, talking draft picks, having had GM experience - why people see to still believe to this day that what he was missing here was personnel control.

Everyone got pissed that TC got it first - but it never occurred to them that maybe, it wasn't just for the coaching.


Yeah, weird assumption Coughlin was responsible for the good and none of the bad.

The weirdness extends now to Gettleman.

It's almost as if someone can be good and bad at elements of their job at the same time.
don't know what going to happen  
bc4life : 12/4/2019 9:36 pm : link
but when one owner says - "we'll wait until the end of the season to discuss things" if that's true, they're idiots.

They should pretty much have an idea of what they're going to do. Even if, they are not certain they'll fire Shurmur (which I think they have already decided they will) they should have a short list and hopefully and put out informal feelers re: interest
The last time Tisch spoke  
JonC : 12/5/2019 10:56 am : link
that I can recall was right before they fired BM, so it should be a red flag for Shurmur and the coaches.

Strictly from a performance perspective of players and coaches on gameday, PS stinks at game management and playcalling, eg the reason(s) why he's in the role, and the team continues to blunder the same mistakes over and over. PS is clearly in over his head.

While I'd be surprised if they fired DG too, there's enough to suggest he's in over his head too. But, their history shows it would be unusual for them to can the GM too, especially after only two years.
I wonder which one will give the old  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 11:03 am : link
"its not you, its me" routine...
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