"As partners we have to be very honest with each other"

is going to fire Mara...

Do these guys not speak to each other at all during the season?

Maybe Tisch is going to read Mara the riot act. Arniefez had a great post elsewhere about the Giants' history of 50-50 deadlocks.

Well we all see how that's gone. PS is toast.

Than anyone else running the org, and is the one ostensibly the least involved

I have been hoping for a Tisch uprising, hopefully. it can be the catalyst for real change.

In comment 14701284 Del Shofner said:

Quote:

Maybe Tisch is going to read Mara the riot act. Arniefez had a great post elsewhere about the Giants' history of 50-50 deadlocks.

I meant ominous in terms of Shurmur.

Definitely promising for those hoping for a change

Bruce Beck (@BruceBeck4NY)
12/3/19, 1:44 PM
Steve Tisch�s message to ⁦‪@Giants‬⁩ fans - �I�m asking for patience. I�m being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding & patient. I want #Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.�

and it gives me hope.

if Tisch wasn't a fucking buffoon himself.

Bruce Beck
‏
Verified account

@BruceBeck4NY
9m9 minutes ago
More
My question to Steve Tisch at the March of Dimes Luncheon - Do you believe in your coach & GM? �Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning. It�s really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues.� #Giants

In comment 14701302 ELI THE GOAT said:

Quote:

Bruce Beck ‏ Verified account @BruceBeck4NY 9m9 minutes ago More My question to Steve Tisch at the March of Dimes Luncheon - Do you believe in your coach & GM? �Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning. It�s really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues.� #Giants

So no.
Good.

In comment 14701296 Defenderdawg said:

Quote:

Bruce Beck (@BruceBeck4NY) 12/3/19, 1:44 PM Steve Tisch�s message to ⁦‪@Giants‬⁩ fans - �I�m asking for patience. I�m being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding & patient. I want #Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.�

translation "Don't worry Giants fan, Papa Tisch is bringing the hammer to East Rutherford 12/30"

FIRE CHRIS FUCKING MARA, GETTLEMAN AND ALL THE OTHER CLOWNS. LETS GO!

regarding comments Mike Lombardi made about John Mara and the Giants business model. The quotes today from Tisch might be our best chance for their family to fly a plane over John Mara's office and that's probably our best hope at this point.

Quote:

Eric really needs to add a Giants history tab that educates the people who post here about the real Super Bowl era Giants history. Pete Rozelle did not save Wellington Mara from himself. Pete Rozelle got involved because the Giants are the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. Tim Mara Jr. left 50% of the Giants to each of his two sons. Wellington and Jack. Jack died before the 1965 season and his half was inherited by his son Tim J Mara. Wellington and Tim J. HATED each other. Serious HATE. Tim J was more concerned with having a good time than anything that was going on with the Giants for most of the Wellington years but by the mid 1970s he was pushing back on Wellington and the embarrassment the team had become. After the Fumble in 1978, after fans hung Wellington in effigy from the 3rd deck in Giants Stadium (google it - Wellington was Dolan before Dolan was Dolan), after fans flew a plane over Giants Stadium complaining about lousy football Tim decided he wasn't going to let Wellington run the team anymore. The Giants had fired their head coach and GM after the 1978 season. Anyone Wellington tried to hire Tim J veto'd. Anyone Tim J suggested Wellington wouldn't consider. Tim J wanted to hire George Allen. That have been the least Wellington thing ever. There was a total 50/50 stalemate. That's why Rozelle HAD TO step in. Rozelle did identify George Young as someone who could navigate the 50/50 feuding Maras but he had to trick both of them into thinking the other guy didn't want GY to get him hired. Tim J was sick and sold his half to the Tisch family after the 1990 Super Bowl season for 75 million dollars. That's the primary reason Parcells left which is a entirely different conversation that's always gotten wrong on BBI. So even though Lombardi got a lot wrong about the Rozelle involvement the Giants are still the only 50/50 ownership in the NFL. If the Tisch family wanted to they could play the Tim J role and make things difficult for John Mara. But there has been no indication they have any interest in that type of power play. The George Young structure remained in place after the Tisch family became co-owners but after Tim J and Parcells left Wellington became more involved and the Giants went back to a dysfunctional poorly run team for most of the 1990's. Ernie Accorsi succeeded Young without all of the authority Young had when Tim J owned the team. Coughlin was forced on him and he basically quit because they didn't get along and Coughlin was Wellington's guy. Wellington passed in 2005, Ernie left after 2006 and by 2012 after the two Eli Super Bowls which were built on Ernie's last rosters Chris Mara became Senior Vice President of Player Personnel which has lead us full circle back to the Wellington years where we are now with no hope or end in sight. What Lombardi sort of gets right is that John Mara and Chris Mara need to step away from the on field product and hire their own 2020 George Young who modernize the organization like Young did and will hire a head coach and choose the players. Anyone think there's chance in hell that will happen?

Timothy J. Mara, 59, Dies; Former Co-owner of Giants - ( New Window )

Tim was the one who brought Rozelle in to fix the Giants. He was also supposedly a drunk and a philanderer who wasn't really that interested in the football side of things, but got tired of how bad the Giants were.

Now I'm not saying that Tisch is exactly the same, but it at least sounds similar?

But someone's gotta say something here to shake things up. Cross your fingers and hope for the best, I guess.

to save two of my beloved franchises. Dark times indeed.

.

Chosen field. He also seems to handle the media much better than Johnny boy. Is it true that he had to be sold PS? That wouldn't surprise me at all. If you know nothing about football, what about PS inspires confidence in you that he is a capable person?

In comment 14701306 Ben in Tampa said:

Quote:

In comment 14701296 Defenderdawg said: Quote: Bruce Beck (@BruceBeck4NY) 12/3/19, 1:44 PM Steve Tisch�s message to ⁦‪@Giants‬⁩ fans - �I�m asking for patience. I�m being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding & patient. I want #Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.� translation "Don't worry Giants fan, Papa Tisch is bringing the hammer to East Rutherford 12/30"

+1 Got a good laugh out of that

He just has to DEMAND a savior.

He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom."

Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.

In comment 14701326 Sean said:

Quote:

.

Exactly, they need to start this ball rolling behind the scenes at the very least. Why wait, this team is an absolute shit show...

But if this type of 50/50 stalemate is what it takes to get the team back to respectability, then I am all for it.

The fact that Tisch is the one who is being quoted and both Mara/DG are in hiding, says alot.

To be an important voice. I think most observers of the team, fans or not, would all agree the Giants need to clean out the system and bring in people with zero allegiances to the franchise. No more let's ask Ernie who we should hire nonsense.

into a saint and whitewash his history after he died for both personal and professional reasons like his uncle did.

He's also not in the Giants Ring of Honor which is a crime if you're a Giant fan that dates back to the 1960's.

You could make a very strong case that Tim J Mara is much more responsible for the Giants 4 Super Bowl than Wellington Mara.

If Tim J Mara didn't force Wellington out of the football operation there's no George Young and no Ernie Accorsi and an empty trophy case.
The Feud That Won Super Bowls - ( New Window )

In comment 14701335 Zeke's Alibi said:

Quote:

Chosen field.

Per wiki, Tisch "is the only person ever with a Golden Globe, an Academy Award, a Primetime Emmy Award nomination, and a Super Bowl Ring."

I suspect, as it seems many others here do, that Mara will fire Shurmur after the season but wants to keep DG. And I think he and DG will be able to convince Tisch that that is a sufficient level of change. Tisch may be frustrated, but I don't think he has the level of involvement (or, quite frankly imo, interest) to have a solid grasp of how to fix things, and I think Gettleman is experienced enough to spin a good enough story about moving the roster in the right direction for Tisch to accept.

Unless Mara wants to move forward with both Shurmur and DG, I don't think Tisch will force things beyond what Mara is already planning to do anyway.

for any successes but not do any of the work that went into it or be around for the problems. Read truebluelarry's "The Wilderness Years".

In comment 14701301 Matt M. said:

Quote:

if Tisch wasn't a fucking buffoon himself.

Bingo.

This is the problem with the Giants ownership structure and why Jawn needed to stay out of football operations in the first place. If Jawn's interventions did not turn out well, and they have been a debacle since he first stuck his nose in because he wanted his team in the SB game in his new ball park, his fellow owner feels justified in sticking his nose in and now we are back in the Welly and his brother days without anyone of Rozelle's stature to step in and force them out of football operations.

Hold on to your hats boys and girls.

In comment 14701302 ELI THE GOAT said:

Quote:

Bruce Beck ‏ Verified account @BruceBeck4NY 9m9 minutes ago More My question to Steve Tisch at the March of Dimes Luncheon - Do you believe in your coach & GM? �Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning. It�s really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues.� #Giants

I love you, Steve Tisch

we've sunk so low that we need to hope that Steve Tisch saves Mara from himself....

I certainly didn't reads this is as Tisch riding in with a "How to Fix the NYG" manual and telling Mara how to run a football team.

Rather I'd like to interpret this as Tisch telling Mara to butt out and hire a real football brain trust to make football decisions that do not have to always pass the "Giants Way" smell test.

if he does that, then he has done a lot.

In comment 14701362 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

for any successes but not do any of the work that went into it or be around for the problems. Read truebluelarry's "The Wilderness Years".

What successes? He inherited the team in 1965 and finally went off 14 years later. During that time, there were two winning seasons. The questions isn't "why did he go after his uncle?" but "why did he wait so long?"

Rozelle stepped in because the franchise was a laughing stock, the feud was in the papers, and there were threats of litigation.

In comment 14701378 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 14701362 Victor in CT said: Quote: for any successes but not do any of the work that went into it or be around for the problems. Read truebluelarry's "The Wilderness Years". What successes? He inherited the team in 1965 and finally went off 14 years later. During that time, there were two winning seasons. The questions isn't "why did he go after his uncle?" but "why did he wait so long?" Rozelle stepped in because the franchise was a laughing stock, the feud was in the papers, and there were threats of litigation.

Yes Rozelle did, but let's not make Tim to be some hero. He was lazy and uninvolved. He offered resistance but no suggestions or solutions.

Don�t know Tisch, but the standard practice in sports is to throw out a vote of confidence when asked in these situations. Folks understand that public confidence might not be sincere, but Tisch�s unwillingness to give it is interesting.

make sure you focus on the most important word

Lets unload this clown car and bring in some fresh perspective with no Giants ties.

but I�m very curious about the succession plan the Mara�s and Tisch�s have. John is 65 and Steve is 70. I could be wrong but I don�t believe either have any children involved. Maybe now is the time to sell.

Thanks I would like to read Larry's write up. Link? Any idea of where Larry sourced his take on Tim J? Because most of what's out there was put out there to make his uncle look like the good guy.

Even if Tim J was everything he's been made out to be, a drunk, lazy, weird, a philanderer etc. He still deserves more credit for the 4 Super Bowls than Wellington does. Just pushing Wellington into the background was a huge contribution and more than Wellington ever did in the Super Bowl era.

Wellington was addition by subtraction to the maximum effect.

to recognize what a trainwreck we've become.

would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all.

I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel?

From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other.

The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up.

They need to figure it out. And soon.

In comment 14701401 arniefez said:

Quote:

Thanks I would like to read Larry's write up. Link? Any idea of where Larry sourced his take on Tim J? Because most of what's out there was put out there to make his uncle look like the good guy. Even if Tim J was everything he's been made out to be, a drunk, lazy, weird, a philanderer etc. He still deserves more credit for the 4 Super Bowls than Wellington does. Just pushing Wellington into the background was a huge contribution and more than Wellington ever did in the Super Bowl era. Wellington was addition by subtraction to the maximum effect.

It's on the home page of the site under "Featured Content", "New York Giants History" arniefez

same. At least someones head is gonna roll. He's had enough.

and not just Shurmur's job.

The question is, will he?

these comments as a good thing for the majority of us who want to see wholesale cahnges

In comment 14701371 Matt in SGS said:

Quote:

we've sunk so low that we need to hope that Steve Tisch saves Mara from himself....

A-fucking-men.

Does Tisch have a son or brother we can hire to scout?

Thank you.

In comment 14701301 Matt M. said:

Quote:

if Tisch wasn't a fucking buffoon himself.

I still don't know what it is exactly that Tisch has done to make people despise him.

In comment 14701403 Jints in Carolina said:

Quote:

Awesome photo.

Talk about history repeating itself.

The Maras are a joke.

In comment 14701401 arniefez said:

Quote:

Thanks I would like to read Larry's write up. Link? Any idea of where Larry sourced his take on Tim J? Because most of what's out there was put out there to make his uncle look like the good guy. Even if Tim J was everything he's been made out to be, a drunk, lazy, weird, a philanderer etc. He still deserves more credit for the 4 Super Bowls than Wellington does. Just pushing Wellington into the background was a huge contribution and more than Wellington ever did in the Super Bowl era. Wellington was addition by subtraction to the maximum effect.

All my work is in the BBI history section (link to the Wilderness Years article below.

You're correct, since the late 1990's there's been something of a white-washing of the internal politics from that era. Tim Jr. has been relegated to near non-existence.

I go as close to the primary source as I can for my research. Much of it came via newspaper archives and I relied on the NY Times and NY Daily News heavily.

Two books that were very helpful were "Giants Again" by Dave Klein (1982) and "Once A Giants, Always..." by Andy Robustelli (1987).

I highly recommend Robustelli's book to anyone who lived through or wishes to learn more about that period of Giants history. I learned a lot and it is a great read (covers his playing career too).

Thanks for the plug Victor! :-)


The Wilderness Years � New York Giants 1964-1978 - ( New Window )

To me this seems like exactly what many want to hear.

This reads a little like this goes beyond Shurmur. He has to see all this Shurmur scapegoating and seems like the message is that from his perspective another smaller change might not be enough.

Sorry I didn't include the link in my reply to arniefez myself. I had to jump on a call.

It's not that I want to ignore Tim's influence in what transpired, but he really wasn't a contributor from what I see, but a person had would just take the opposite side and not offer any solutions. But in causing the stalemate, he forced Rozelle to get involved, which lead to Geoge Young, so for that we can all be grateful.

know what he was doing once. Saint Squint gets a pass from a lot of Giants fans when he shouldn't.

...because his grandpa bought the team for $500.

It was a good read. Certainly Robustelli had no use for Tim J. As someone who sat in the stands all those years Tim J is the hero of this story regardless of his character defects real or smeared by Wellington's cronies of which Robustelli was one.

In comment 14701357 Del Shofner said:

Quote:

In comment 14701335 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: Chosen field. Per wiki, Tisch "is the only person ever with a Golden Globe, an Academy Award, a Primetime Emmy Award nomination, and a Super Bowl Ring."

How many people from Hollywood were NFL owners?

You might be referring to the Bob Lurtsema story.

To paraphrase Wellington called Lurtsema into his office in 1971 during the season and said I need you to be honest with me about how the locker room feels about me and the organization. Nothing will happen to you for being honest. The team and I need this non filtered.

So Lurtsema told Wellington the locker room thinks we have no hope and that you're cheap and way behind the times. Again paraphrasing not quoting but this can be confirmed if you do some homework.

Before the next game Wellington traded Lurtsema to MN which I'm sure he was grateful for the rest of his life. He backed up the Purple People Eaters in their prime went to a few Super Bowls and remained popular in MN long after he retired.

Dude should stick to the ponies. Tisch needs to put Chrissie in his place. How about that Tim McDonnell fella too? lol. He's our Assistant Director of Player Personnel.


Wellington Mara�s grandson hired by Giants as scout - By Paul Schwartz March 27, 2013 - ( New Window )

In comment 14701582 arniefez said:

Quote:

You might be referring to the Bob Lurtsema story. To paraphrase Wellington called Lurtsema into his office in 1971 during the season and said I need you to be honest with me about how the locker room feels about me and the organization. Nothing will happen to you for being honest. The team and I need this non filtered. So Lurtsema told Wellington the locker room thinks we have no hope and that you're cheap and way behind the times. Again paraphrasing not quoting but this can be confirmed if you do some homework. Before the next game Wellington traded Lurtsema to MN which I'm sure he was grateful for the rest of his life. He backed up the Purple People Eaters in their prime went to a few Super Bowls and remained popular in MN long after he retired.

Thank you arnie! That's it. You da man!

You own a billion dollar franchise. Your asses should be talking on a daily basis.

Maybe try chasing every last dollar and build another stadium? Maybe that will work.

"Qualified, he is? HMMM?," to paraphrase Master Yoda. This young fella is the NYG's assistant director of player personnel! My bet is that this dude takes over for John John. Nepotism is STROOOONG in the Giants' organization! The Tisch family needs to do something about these schmucks masquerading as football men.


Tim McDonnell Assistant Director of Player Personnel - ( New Window )

is to give the Giants, what I've done with the Knicks the they no longer exist treatment and I have too many Giant family memories to do that.

Quote:

As a pro personnel scout, McDonnell will work under director of pro personnel Ken Sternfeld and evaluate talent on NFL teams.

So this guy is helping pick the NFL free agents? He's doing a hell of a job. Let's promote him.

2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little...

Why does this reportage sound nothing like the vapid klutz we hear and see on the sidelines before and during games, the one who plays to all the NY Football Giants empty cliches??

From the very minor, and indirect experiences I've had with Tisch, he's a competent business man.

detailing all the family ties...beyond the two you mention, there were at least two (maybe three) more in the scouting dep't, college or pro, who do not necessarily have Mara as last name.

Ominious etc etc.

Now trying to make something out of nothing.

In comment 14701371 Matt in SGS said:

Quote:

we've sunk so low that we need to hope that Steve Tisch saves Mara from himself....

^This.

In comment 14701632 ColHowPepper said:

Quote:

detailing all the family ties...beyond the two you mention, there were at least two (maybe three) more in the scouting dep't, college or pro, who do not necessarily have Mara as last name.

Thank you. Of course that would be the case. The fish rots from the head, so that makes perfect sense and is to be expected. they're like cockroaches and need to be exterminated.

It's their money and team just as much as it is the Maras. The model that isn't working is not the GM or even the H.C. It's the Maras infesting the organization with their incompetence. Get them out of things as much as possible. I know it's not going to happen completely, but they need to be neutered, and a G.Y. figure with success from the outside needs to be installed as the Head of Football operations.

In comment 14701453 BigBlueCane said:

Quote:

and not just Shurmur's job. The question is, will he?

I'm not sure that Tisch is even aware that there is a problem with this structure. If he does I would be ewually surprised and impressed.

In comment 14701618 Optimus-NY said:

Quote:

2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little...

So I don't get it...is it good or bad?

I mean, they do own the team. The real question is, what decisions are they making.

In comment 14701717 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 14701618 Optimus-NY said: Quote: 2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little... So I don't get it...is it good or bad? I mean, they do own the team. The real question is, what decisions are they making.

Bad ones. The Ravens are the model that the Giants should emulate IMO.

Check it out below.


Mike Francesa: GIANTS problems run DEEP (9:14) - ( New Window )

Out to the woodshed!

I missed it. But this is not certainly not Mara approved dialogue. Pat Hanlon must have s**t himself. Even Tisch knows what a joke this has become.

Quote:

Tisch didn�t hold back from making himself and the Giants the butt of jokes, either, as he was handed an award for his leadership, according to Sports Business Journal. �I know you are having second thoughts about giving an owner of a 2-10 football team a sports leadership award. But look, you couldn�t have known, just like the NFL doesn�t know what pass interference is,� Tisch quipped. While taking the award from Kenny Albert, Tisch joked, �You just witnessed a handoff to a Giant that wasn�t fumbled this season.�

Giants� Steve Tisch: �Very honest� deciding fate of Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur - ( New Window )

Terps' posts..

In comment 14701717 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 14701618 Optimus-NY said: Quote: 2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little... So I don't get it...is it good or bad? I mean, they do own the team. The real question is, what decisions are they making.

The late 90s dynasty Yankees were born during the time Steinbrenner was banned from meddling.

A lesson John Mara should heed

Does he have any ownership in the team? Can he be fired?

need to get all Maras out of the football side of the business. I hope Tisch feels the same.

After our last Super Bowl win he said "the Giants canceled the Brady Bunch" or something. Brutal.

And wants him, along with the Shurminator, gone.

One can dream...

dialogue you hope.

All things considered, the Giants were one of the better franchises from 1980-2012. Sure, it was not always pleasant but they had many competitive teams with 4 Super Bowls. I think many franchises and fans would trade for that success.

The question that has to be answered honestly is what changed? That would be a good start for them to address honestly. We all have theories but those two need to listen to each other, present thoughts and hopefully agree the best course is have family members out of football operations.

I personally think what changed is they stopped drafting (or correctly identifying) physical, tough football players on both lines and linebackers. Seems a lot of the issues started when they went the WCO route as well.

I definitely thought PS is a goner but now I am leaning towards DG joining him.

In comment 14701340 81_Great_Dane said:

Quote:

He just has to DEMAND a savior. He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom." Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.

Agree

To sch has to be like Your handling of the football side has been awful for quite some time and we have to change, bring in a new voice from outside. Our reputation is sinking and the fans are unhappy, we have to fix it. Your way of doing things no longer works

In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said:

Quote:

would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all. I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel? From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other. The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up. They need to figure it out. And soon.

blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.

In comment 14701773 WideRight said:

Quote:

Does he have any ownership in the team? Can he be fired?

Chris is Wellington's son and an owner.

football side of the operation with a bunch of family member hacks. Get these leeching no talent Maras out of football operations . This fish rots from the head.

They always talk after the season, and Tisch is going to go in there and say �I�m not happy, the fans aren�t happy, how are we going to fix things?� If he has ANY clue, he will know that the current organization structure is t working. I�m betting it will be just fire Shurmur. Who really knows how closely he follows things and how astute he is about the football business side of things. That�s the question.

.

that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations.


He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.

the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.

In comment 14701815 Dave on the UWS said:

Quote:

They always talk after the season, and Tisch is going to go in there and say �I�m not happy, the fans aren�t happy, how are we going to fix things?� If he has ANY clue, he will know that the current organization structure is t working. I�m betting it will be just fire Shurmur. Who really knows how closely he follows things and how astute he is about the football business side of things. That�s the question.

nope

the standard non-answer would be

"we don't make brash moves during the season" or " we Will examine the teams performance when the season is complete"


he said

"I need to have a very honest talk with mara"

In comment 14701809 Justlurking said:

Quote:

In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said: Quote: would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all. I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel? From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other. The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up. They need to figure it out. And soon. blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.

Marc Ross

We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.

In comment 14701845 HomerJones45 said:

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We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.

True, but as a 50-50 owner, he can block any moves by the other 50-50 owner. It's a bad ownership structure for sure, but 50-50 means they both have power. Tisch can do what Tim Mara did and create a deadlock, which hopefully forces a compromise. The league stepped in with a compromise GM, George Young, when Tim Mara did it. I don't expect to get lucky that way again but as the saying goes, nothing changes if nothing changes.

In comment 14701340 81_Great_Dane said:

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He just has to DEMAND a savior. He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom." Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.

Great post. I think that sort of conversation cam be conducted in a completely professional and effective manner.

Here's hoping.

In comment 14701833 huygens20 said:

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that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations. He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization. the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.

Gettleman needs to retire.

That photo of empty seats Sunday has a price tag. Those tickets might have sold, but plastic chairs don't eat dogs, drink beer, and buy jerseys.

Tisch has plenty of motivation for the Giants to field a competitive team.

In comment 14701845 HomerJones45 said:

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We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.

Optics are so bad though...Tisch could basically garner 100% fan support and this gets really, really, ugly. I think John is more sensible than Wellington and will make concessions. The problem is between Tisch and Mara we have two old farts who inherited $. Need an innovative approach here and i am not sure we get that.

In comment 14701837 huygens20 said:

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In comment 14701809 Justlurking said: Quote: In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said: Quote: would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all. I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel? From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other. The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up. They need to figure it out. And soon. blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out. Marc Ross

Its organizational failure top to bottom. And the organization is infested with Maras.

https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2016/08/07/wilderness-years-new-york-giants-1964-1978/

The next day Sherman was fired. A sullen Mara said at the press conference, �Sometime between 2am and 6am I reached my decision. There was no straw, no camel�s back. We just weren�t winning enough football games. The sole reason for our existence is to please our fans. If we�re not pleasing our fans we�ve got to find out why.�

It�s to easy to replace Sherman with Shurmur. All else is a repeat of history right down to the family names!

In comment 14701301 Matt M. said:

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if Tisch wasn't a fucking buffoon himself.

He is a buffoon, but at least he's a buffoon who knows he's a buffoon and would leave football decisions to football people. I hope he gets the John and Chris Mara out of personnel. I'd think at this point that would have to be his concern.

In comment 14701549 Victor in CT said:

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Sorry I didn't include the link in my reply to arniefez myself. I had to jump on a call. It's not that I want to ignore Tim's influence in what transpired, but he really wasn't a contributor from what I see, but a person had would just take the opposite side and not offer any solutions. But in causing the stalemate, he forced Rozelle to get involved, which lead to Geoge Young, so for that we can all be grateful.

Often times Tim was a contrarian, no doubt. He wasn't wrong to confront Wellington, but he could have handled it better and not taken it publically. If it had been handled behind closed doors much of the acrimony would likely have disipated over time.

but he fought with Wellington for a decade before anyone outside the Giants knew about it. It was kept silent in media and Tim J never made a public issue of it until after the fumble. Again the rush to anoint saint Wellington never ends.

In comment 14701801 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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dialogue you hope. All things considered, the Giants were one of the better franchises from 1980-2012. Sure, it was not always pleasant but they had many competitive teams with 4 Super Bowls. I think many franchises and fans would trade for that success. The question that has to be answered honestly is what changed? That would be a good start for them to address honestly. We all have theories but those two need to listen to each other, present thoughts and hopefully agree the best course is have family members out of football operations. I personally think what changed is they stopped drafting (or correctly identifying) physical, tough football players on both lines and linebackers. Seems a lot of the issues started when they went the WCO route as well. I definitely thought PS is a goner but now I am leaning towards DG joining him.

The hope is that if Tisch is involved that Chris Mara follows.

In comment 14701792 The_Boss said:

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And wants him, along with the Shurminator, gone. One can dream...

From your keyboard to God's ears...

& Gettleman 'retiring' & with outside people being brought it. The drumbeat is growing louder with every loss.

In comment 14702001 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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& Gettleman 'retiring' & with outside people being brought it. The drumbeat is growing louder with every loss.

As long as those outside people can get rid of the Maras or move them to the side.

lots of really, really excellent football conversation going on here. Posts like these represent the forum at its very best. Well done to all who contributed on this thread.

are entirely unfair. Mara was devoted to the team and cared about the product, the players, about winning and cared about the fans. He was loyal to a fault to players, former players and coaches, the Giants "family." He got stuck in time and couldn't adjust to changes in the game and had a hard time adapting to modern management. But it was his family life's work.

In comment 14701833 huygens20 said:

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that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations. He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization. the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.

Persuasive

Fire Chris Mara, DG and Shurmur.

Tisch - you can do it. Time to clean house. Bring a football guy in here to run football ops and let him build this org back up.

He’s certainly well aware of the Peter Principle

The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence.

I hope that Tisch recognizes it and can convince Mara that DG was a competent scout, competent pro personnel head, but doesn’t have what it takes to be a GM.

Bill Belichick would very much be the closest thing to the George Young/Bill Parcells of this era. The guy who steps in and cleans everything up and puts the team back on the winning track. Now I don't think that has the slightest chance of happening of course.

So they must think outside the box and come up with a solution. Now is the time to think of everything and no matter how odd or radical something may seem they should investigate it's potential. If not now, when?

if anyone knows Bill B's contract status? Why is it such forgone conclusion?

Regarding ownership:
It�s been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season.

Regarding Shurmur AND Gettleman:
Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning, it�s really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues

To the fans:
I�m asking for patience. I�m being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding and patient. I want Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.

In comment 14702115 .McL. said:

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Regarding ownership: It�s been a very frustrating season. At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season. Regarding Shurmur AND Gettleman: Those decisions & conversation are not going to be made this morning, it�s really at the end of the season that John and I are going to sit down and talk about these issues To the fans: I�m asking for patience. I�m being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding and patient. I want Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.

I didn�t see the entire comment. Thanks.

The last part is so patronizing considering the length of this drought. Pales in comparison to what Tepper said today about the Panthers...

In comment 14701296 Defenderdawg said:

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Bruce Beck (@BruceBeck4NY) 12/3/19, 1:44 PM Steve Tisch�s message to ⁦‪@Giants‬⁩ fans - �I�m asking for patience. I�m being patient which you know at times is challenging. Please be understanding & patient. I want #Giants fan to feel that their voice is being heard.�

If you aren't putting together a decent football team next year that at least can threaten a playoff spot through the end of December, then prove it about wanting the fan to feel their voice is being heard. Fire the coaches and the GM if it doesn't happen.

BTW Steve, do you realize your GM doesn't give a damn about the fans? He lets everyone know that he has the resume and everyone else needs to shut up and bow before him.

And it wasn't great to begin with.

Is what we need. Mara�s loser apologist quotes are pathetic. Tisch better back his words up

The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program.

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"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.

I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.

In comment 14702212 christian said:

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The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program. Quote: "We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes. I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis.

The isolated quote reads well, but people need to temper their praise of Tepper. I posted in the RR thread a quote from Tepper where he wants to influence the football decisions going forward. My response was to GT with no response back. While being a multi-billionaire owner gives him carte blanche to decide how he wants to run his business, my question is what qualifies him to make football decisions? If we want to bandy about cliches that the "fish rots from the head down" and rail against organizational dysfunction where the owner is making football decisions, why is it ok to apply that standard to Mara but not to Tepper?

In comment 14702215 Diver_Down said:

Quote:

In comment 14702212 christian said: Quote: The Pantber's owner all but said Rivera got fired because he's not running a modern football program. Quote: "We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes. I wonder if the Giants will do a remotely similar analysis. The isolated quote reads well, but people need to temper their praise of Tepper. I posted in the RR thread a quote from Tepper where he wants to influence the football decisions going forward. My response was to GT with no response back. While being a multi-billionaire owner gives him carte blanche to decide how he wants to run his business, my question is what qualifies him to make football decisions? If we want to bandy about cliches that the "fish rots from the head down" and rail against organizational dysfunction where the owner is making football decisions, why is it ok to apply that standard to Mara but not to Tepper?

Tepper wants to put his stamp on football decisions - ( New Window )

It's reported Carolina will convene a committee to hire their next coach, and add a head of football operations.

The owner said he wanted to make his mark, he didn't say he was going to personally start making football decisions.

If Mara and Tisch got more involved by hiring a group of football operatives to run this thing, that would be fucking awesome.

the team is managed by someone other than John Mara. I think the guy is polished, well groomed and speaks well. However, he is an empty suit when it comes to running a football team.

He is the Giants "Tommy Boy" who took over the family business when dad passed away.

Here is the evidence...

1. Jerry Reese & Marc Ross - Either too stupid to realize they were a big part of the problem when he fired Coughlin OR who knew his finger prints were all over their player selections too which is why he gave them another chance.

2. He could not make the decision himself when it comes to the new GM (and possibly the coach) so he basically hires Acorsi to make the decision for him.

3. He screwed up the Eli benching a few years ago. Mis-managed that whole event and got egg on his face. Made it seem that the decision was made via text messages... really? Why was the owner and GM telling the coach who to start on Sunday anyway?

4. He should have had a discussion with Coughlin well before the firing to make him the VP of football operations. Essentially the same job he has now in Jax. Then, Coughlin would be making all of these decisions instead of John. Now, in hindsight after seeing what Coughlin is doing in Jax, some may not like this idea but at that time I think we all would have been okay with it.

Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess.

Tom Coughlin is a disaster as a football exec/GM. He just destroyed Jacksonville for the 2nd time.

for Shurmur, but possibly for the Mara's unimpeded hand in operations too. At some point the Tisch's are going to step in and point out that operational incompetence is impacting them financially.

operation, then you most likely havent seen what Dolan has done to the Knicks. Dolan=Tisch.

and Tisch isn't like Dolan in any way personally or professionally.

Many people are hoping Tisch forces Mara's plural to stop picking the players

In comment 14702228 christian said:

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Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess.

The one thing I can't understand - when everyone knows that the Giants operate as a collective, countless pics of Coughlin at combines, talking draft picks, having had GM experience - why people see to still believe to this day that what he was missing here was personnel control.

Everyone got pissed that TC got it first - but it never occurred to them that maybe, it wasn't just for the coaching.

In comment 14703098 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14702228 christian said: Quote: Coughlin has done a miserable job in Jacksonville. Him not running football ops for the Giants is one of the only plusses to come out of this whole mess. The one thing I can't understand - when everyone knows that the Giants operate as a collective, countless pics of Coughlin at combines, talking draft picks, having had GM experience - why people see to still believe to this day that what he was missing here was personnel control. Everyone got pissed that TC got it first - but it never occurred to them that maybe, it wasn't just for the coaching.

Yeah, weird assumption Coughlin was responsible for the good and none of the bad.

The weirdness extends now to Gettleman.

It's almost as if someone can be good and bad at elements of their job at the same time.

but when one owner says - "we'll wait until the end of the season to discuss things" if that's true, they're idiots.

They should pretty much have an idea of what they're going to do. Even if, they are not certain they'll fire Shurmur (which I think they have already decided they will) they should have a short list and hopefully and put out informal feelers re: interest

that I can recall was right before they fired BM, so it should be a red flag for Shurmur and the coaches.

Strictly from a performance perspective of players and coaches on gameday, PS stinks at game management and playcalling, eg the reason(s) why he's in the role, and the team continues to blunder the same mistakes over and over. PS is clearly in over his head.

While I'd be surprised if they fired DG too, there's enough to suggest he's in over his head too. But, their history shows it would be unusual for them to can the GM too, especially after only two years.

"its not you, its me" routine...