"As partners we have to be very honest with each other"

In comment 14701403 Jints in Carolina said:

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Awesome photo.

Talk about history repeating itself.

The Maras are a joke.

In comment 14701401 arniefez said:

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Thanks I would like to read Larry's write up. Link? Any idea of where Larry sourced his take on Tim J? Because most of what's out there was put out there to make his uncle look like the good guy. Even if Tim J was everything he's been made out to be, a drunk, lazy, weird, a philanderer etc. He still deserves more credit for the 4 Super Bowls than Wellington does. Just pushing Wellington into the background was a huge contribution and more than Wellington ever did in the Super Bowl era. Wellington was addition by subtraction to the maximum effect.

All my work is in the BBI history section (link to the Wilderness Years article below.

You're correct, since the late 1990's there's been something of a white-washing of the internal politics from that era. Tim Jr. has been relegated to near non-existence.

I go as close to the primary source as I can for my research. Much of it came via newspaper archives and I relied on the NY Times and NY Daily News heavily.

Two books that were very helpful were "Giants Again" by Dave Klein (1982) and "Once A Giants, Always..." by Andy Robustelli (1987).

I highly recommend Robustelli's book to anyone who lived through or wishes to learn more about that period of Giants history. I learned a lot and it is a great read (covers his playing career too).

Thanks for the plug Victor! :-)


The Wilderness Years – New York Giants 1964-1978 - ( New Window )

To me this seems like exactly what many want to hear.

This reads a little like this goes beyond Shurmur. He has to see all this Shurmur scapegoating and seems like the message is that from his perspective another smaller change might not be enough.

Sorry I didn't include the link in my reply to arniefez myself. I had to jump on a call.

It's not that I want to ignore Tim's influence in what transpired, but he really wasn't a contributor from what I see, but a person had would just take the opposite side and not offer any solutions. But in causing the stalemate, he forced Rozelle to get involved, which lead to Geoge Young, so for that we can all be grateful.

know what he was doing once. Saint Squint gets a pass from a lot of Giants fans when he shouldn't.

...because his grandpa bought the team for $500.

It was a good read. Certainly Robustelli had no use for Tim J. As someone who sat in the stands all those years Tim J is the hero of this story regardless of his character defects real or smeared by Wellington's cronies of which Robustelli was one.

In comment 14701357 Del Shofner said:

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In comment 14701335 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: Chosen field. Per wiki, Tisch "is the only person ever with a Golden Globe, an Academy Award, a Primetime Emmy Award nomination, and a Super Bowl Ring."

How many people from Hollywood were NFL owners?

You might be referring to the Bob Lurtsema story.

To paraphrase Wellington called Lurtsema into his office in 1971 during the season and said I need you to be honest with me about how the locker room feels about me and the organization. Nothing will happen to you for being honest. The team and I need this non filtered.

So Lurtsema told Wellington the locker room thinks we have no hope and that you're cheap and way behind the times. Again paraphrasing not quoting but this can be confirmed if you do some homework.

Before the next game Wellington traded Lurtsema to MN which I'm sure he was grateful for the rest of his life. He backed up the Purple People Eaters in their prime went to a few Super Bowls and remained popular in MN long after he retired.

Dude should stick to the ponies. Tisch needs to put Chrissie in his place. How about that Tim McDonnell fella too? lol. He's our Assistant Director of Player Personnel.


Wellington Mara’s grandson hired by Giants as scout - By Paul Schwartz March 27, 2013 - ( New Window )

In comment 14701582 arniefez said:

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You might be referring to the Bob Lurtsema story. To paraphrase Wellington called Lurtsema into his office in 1971 during the season and said I need you to be honest with me about how the locker room feels about me and the organization. Nothing will happen to you for being honest. The team and I need this non filtered. So Lurtsema told Wellington the locker room thinks we have no hope and that you're cheap and way behind the times. Again paraphrasing not quoting but this can be confirmed if you do some homework. Before the next game Wellington traded Lurtsema to MN which I'm sure he was grateful for the rest of his life. He backed up the Purple People Eaters in their prime went to a few Super Bowls and remained popular in MN long after he retired.

Thank you arnie! That's it. You da man!

You own a billion dollar franchise. Your asses should be talking on a daily basis.

Maybe try chasing every last dollar and build another stadium? Maybe that will work.

"Qualified, he is? HMMM?," to paraphrase Master Yoda. This young fella is the NYG's assistant director of player personnel! My bet is that this dude takes over for John John. Nepotism is STROOOONG in the Giants' organization! The Tisch family needs to do something about these schmucks masquerading as football men.


Tim McDonnell Assistant Director of Player Personnel - ( New Window )

is to give the Giants, what I've done with the Knicks the they no longer exist treatment and I have too many Giant family memories to do that.

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As a pro personnel scout, McDonnell will work under director of pro personnel Ken Sternfeld and evaluate talent on NFL teams.

So this guy is helping pick the NFL free agents? He's doing a hell of a job. Let's promote him.

2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little...

Why does this reportage sound nothing like the vapid klutz we hear and see on the sidelines before and during games, the one who plays to all the NY Football Giants empty cliches??

From the very minor, and indirect experiences I've had with Tisch, he's a competent business man.

detailing all the family ties...beyond the two you mention, there were at least two (maybe three) more in the scouting dep't, college or pro, who do not necessarily have Mara as last name.

Ominious etc etc.

Now trying to make something out of nothing.

In comment 14701371 Matt in SGS said:

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we've sunk so low that we need to hope that Steve Tisch saves Mara from himself....

^This.

In comment 14701632 ColHowPepper said:

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detailing all the family ties...beyond the two you mention, there were at least two (maybe three) more in the scouting dep't, college or pro, who do not necessarily have Mara as last name.

Thank you. Of course that would be the case. The fish rots from the head, so that makes perfect sense and is to be expected. they're like cockroaches and need to be exterminated.

It's their money and team just as much as it is the Maras. The model that isn't working is not the GM or even the H.C. It's the Maras infesting the organization with their incompetence. Get them out of things as much as possible. I know it's not going to happen completely, but they need to be neutered, and a G.Y. figure with success from the outside needs to be installed as the Head of Football operations.

In comment 14701453 BigBlueCane said:

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and not just Shurmur's job. The question is, will he?

I'm not sure that Tisch is even aware that there is a problem with this structure. If he does I would be ewually surprised and impressed.

In comment 14701618 Optimus-NY said:

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2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little...

So I don't get it...is it good or bad?

I mean, they do own the team. The real question is, what decisions are they making.

In comment 14701717 BillKo said:

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In comment 14701618 Optimus-NY said: Quote: 2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little... So I don't get it...is it good or bad? I mean, they do own the team. The real question is, what decisions are they making.

Bad ones. The Ravens are the model that the Giants should emulate IMO.

Check it out below.


Mike Francesa: GIANTS problems run DEEP (9:14) - ( New Window )

Out to the woodshed!

I missed it. But this is not certainly not Mara approved dialogue. Pat Hanlon must have s**t himself. Even Tisch knows what a joke this has become.

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Tisch didn’t hold back from making himself and the Giants the butt of jokes, either, as he was handed an award for his leadership, according to Sports Business Journal. “I know you are having second thoughts about giving an owner of a 2-10 football team a sports leadership award. But look, you couldn’t have known, just like the NFL doesn’t know what pass interference is,” Tisch quipped. While taking the award from Kenny Albert, Tisch joked, “You just witnessed a handoff to a Giant that wasn’t fumbled this season.”

Giants’ Steve Tisch: ‘Very honest’ deciding fate of Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur - ( New Window )

Terps' posts..

In comment 14701717 BillKo said:

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In comment 14701618 Optimus-NY said: Quote: 2 of the 7 people listed in the front office section Giants.com are members of the Mara family, not including the GM himself, Dave Gettleman, which would make it 2 of 8. So, 25 percent of the front office are Maras. Chew on that factoid for a little... So I don't get it...is it good or bad? I mean, they do own the team. The real question is, what decisions are they making.

The late 90s dynasty Yankees were born during the time Steinbrenner was banned from meddling.

A lesson John Mara should heed

Does he have any ownership in the team? Can he be fired?

need to get all Maras out of the football side of the business. I hope Tisch feels the same.

After our last Super Bowl win he said "the Giants canceled the Brady Bunch" or something. Brutal.

And wants him, along with the Shurminator, gone.

One can dream...

dialogue you hope.

All things considered, the Giants were one of the better franchises from 1980-2012. Sure, it was not always pleasant but they had many competitive teams with 4 Super Bowls. I think many franchises and fans would trade for that success.

The question that has to be answered honestly is what changed? That would be a good start for them to address honestly. We all have theories but those two need to listen to each other, present thoughts and hopefully agree the best course is have family members out of football operations.

I personally think what changed is they stopped drafting (or correctly identifying) physical, tough football players on both lines and linebackers. Seems a lot of the issues started when they went the WCO route as well.

I definitely thought PS is a goner but now I am leaning towards DG joining him.

In comment 14701340 81_Great_Dane said:

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He just has to DEMAND a savior. He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom." Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.

Agree

To sch has to be like Your handling of the football side has been awful for quite some time and we have to change, bring in a new voice from outside. Our reputation is sinking and the fans are unhappy, we have to fix it. Your way of doing things no longer works

In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said:

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would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all. I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel? From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other. The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up. They need to figure it out. And soon.

blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.

In comment 14701773 WideRight said:

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Does he have any ownership in the team? Can he be fired?

Chris is Wellington's son and an owner.

football side of the operation with a bunch of family member hacks. Get these leeching no talent Maras out of football operations . This fish rots from the head.

They always talk after the season, and Tisch is going to go in there and say “I’m not happy, the fans aren’t happy, how are we going to fix things?” If he has ANY clue, he will know that the current organization structure is t working. I’m betting it will be just fire Shurmur. Who really knows how closely he follows things and how astute he is about the football business side of things. That’s the question.

.

that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations.


He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization.

the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.

In comment 14701815 Dave on the UWS said:

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They always talk after the season, and Tisch is going to go in there and say “I’m not happy, the fans aren’t happy, how are we going to fix things?” If he has ANY clue, he will know that the current organization structure is t working. I’m betting it will be just fire Shurmur. Who really knows how closely he follows things and how astute he is about the football business side of things. That’s the question.

nope

the standard non-answer would be

"we don't make brash moves during the season" or " we Will examine the teams performance when the season is complete"


he said

"I need to have a very honest talk with mara"

In comment 14701809 Justlurking said:

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In comment 14701405 Danthebigbluefan said: Quote: would be wise to first consult with football minds. It's no secret John has been more involved in football operations. But these guys need to (and hopefully do) put their egos aside and have honest conversation, built around ideological conflict. I feel the root cause, or one of them, with this organizations inability to establish stability is that they have owners who want to call the shots or not be involved at all. I mean, what qualifications does Chris Mara have to be in charge of personnel? From a structural standpoint, I see people who occupy 2 or 3 jobs and have dual-titles. Why? Structure it so each person has accountability to themselves, their position, and each other. The Giants are a broken organization and this isn't a Ben McAdoo, Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur, Kevin Abrams, etc. problem. This is an ownership problem and how they've eroded stability that gets built by playing politics inside the front office. Accorsi left this team in very good shape and then Jerry Reese blew it up. They need to figure it out. And soon. blaming this on Reese is a cop out. The fault lies with the MARA family and their involvement with football operations. Reese as the boogeyman is played out.

Marc Ross

We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.

In comment 14701845 HomerJones45 said:

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We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.

True, but as a 50-50 owner, he can block any moves by the other 50-50 owner. It's a bad ownership structure for sure, but 50-50 means they both have power. Tisch can do what Tim Mara did and create a deadlock, which hopefully forces a compromise. The league stepped in with a compromise GM, George Young, when Tim Mara did it. I don't expect to get lucky that way again but as the saying goes, nothing changes if nothing changes.

In comment 14701340 81_Great_Dane said:

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He just has to DEMAND a savior. He's as much the owner as John Mara is, he can say: "Look, I'm not a football guy, I can't take over here, but this is a mess. This organization is dysfunctional. It has been bad and getting worse for years. Nobody's satisfied. YOU'RE not satisfied. It's time for both of us, and that means you and the Mara family, to step back from running the football operation and stick to an ownership role. An NFL team can't be a family business. You want to hand out money on the side to take care of ex-players, that's great, no problem. You want to be a league leader on business issues like your father, that's perfect. But we need to hire football pros to run the football side, top to bottom." Separately, IMO, the current 50-50 ownership structure not only invites deadlocks, it hinders bringing in additional investors. Neither the Mara nor Tisch sides is going to deliberately step into a subordinate role.

Great post. I think that sort of conversation cam be conducted in a completely professional and effective manner.

Here's hoping.

In comment 14701833 huygens20 said:

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that Mara needs to hire a director of Football operations. He's gotta get someone from the patriots, Seahawks, steelers, New Orleans, ravens, vikings to come in and oversee Gettleman at the minimum and modernize the organization. the giants are still managed like its 2001. While teams like the Ravens literally have a crack den of analysts figuring out every small nuance of edge in draft picks, rulebooks, coverages, etc. we have a bunch of napping boomers that are failing and failing.

Gettleman needs to retire.

That photo of empty seats Sunday has a price tag. Those tickets might have sold, but plastic chairs don't eat dogs, drink beer, and buy jerseys.

Tisch has plenty of motivation for the Giants to field a competitive team.

In comment 14701845 HomerJones45 said:

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We've seen this movie before. He's a 50-50 owner. He can gripe and bitch and make mean faces, but he can't force his fellow owner to do anything.

Optics are so bad though...Tisch could basically garner 100% fan support and this gets really, really, ugly. I think John is more sensible than Wellington and will make concessions. The problem is between Tisch and Mara we have two old farts who inherited $. Need an innovative approach here and i am not sure we get that.