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Schwartz: Inside the Giantsí heartless locker room

Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/4/2019 6:21 am
Interesting read by Paul Schwartz...


Inside the Giantsí heartless locker room: ĎWhatís the actual problem?í - ( New Window )
I usually hate articles like this.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 6:32 am : link
Being in the locker room for a little but of time does not mean you see everything. If the players were calling each other out in front of the media that would be a huge negative story. That isn't the answer.

To me, the word accountable comes to mind. We watch shitty play by the same players every week. There is no accountability. I do not care if it is a vet like Bathea or a rookie like Baker. There is zero accountability. That is a foundation of any good team whether it comes from the players or it comes from the coaches or even management but you have to have it.
Profound  
huygens20 : 12/4/2019 6:35 am : link
Shurmurís done. Hopefully gettleshit too

Losing sucks but this article drives home how the team has no leaders. All the vets either donít play much or are career losers.


Really interesting.

This signals to me that the next head coach needs to be larger than his position

Rhule talks that talk
The KC offensive coordinator is very fiery
Ron Rivera??? No
Garrett??? He says about 20 words a day
McDaniels? Can he manage a listless clubhouse ??
Fuck McDaniels.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 6:36 am : link
So fuckin overrated.
RE: I usually hate articles like this.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/4/2019 6:39 am : link
In comment 14702187 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Being in the locker room for a little but of time does not mean you see everything. If the players were calling each other out in front of the media that would be a huge negative story. That isn't the answer.

To me, the word accountable comes to mind. We watch shitty play by the same players every week. There is no accountability. I do not care if it is a vet like Bathea or a rookie like Baker. There is zero accountability. That is a foundation of any good team whether it comes from the players or it comes from the coaches or even management but you have to have it.


And you usually see articles like this when the wheels are coming off.

I think equally interesting is that Schwartz feels "safe" writing an article like this. He's been through this a few times now. He knows the politics involved.
RE: Fuck McDaniels.  
huygens20 : 12/4/2019 6:40 am : link
In comment 14702190 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
So fuckin overrated.


Idk if heís ever gonna be a good head coach, but heís a genius as an offensive coordinator


There was a great article about his play calling in the super bowl vs rams and how he forced the rams into a personnel grouping that they could exploit. He ainít just calling plays like shurmur.
RE: RE: Fuck McDaniels.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 6:46 am : link
In comment 14702193 huygens20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14702190 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


So fuckin overrated.



Idk if heís ever gonna be a good head coach, but heís a genius as an offensive coordinator


There was a great article about his play calling in the super bowl vs rams and how he forced the rams into a personnel grouping that they could exploit. He ainít just calling plays like shurmur.


Not sure that is a genius as much as it is his job. Any good OC should be doing that but I guess with what we've seen lately as Giants fans it isn't so common.
RE: RE: RE: Fuck McDaniels.  
huygens20 : 12/4/2019 6:47 am : link
In comment 14702197 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14702193 huygens20 said:


Quote:


In comment 14702190 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


So fuckin overrated.



Idk if heís ever gonna be a good head coach, but heís a genius as an offensive coordinator


There was a great article about his play calling in the super bowl vs rams and how he forced the rams into a personnel grouping that they could exploit. He ainít just calling plays like shurmur.



Not sure that is a genius as much as it is his job. Any good OC should be doing that but I guess with what we've seen lately as Giants fans it isn't so common.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/05/07/super-bowl-53-rams-defense-sean-mcvay-wade-phillips-nickell-robey-coleman-cory-littleton


Great read irrespective of the McDaniels stuff


Iíd hire him in a minute over any other re tread
RE: RE: I usually hate articles like this.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 6:48 am : link
In comment 14702191 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14702187 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


Being in the locker room for a little but of time does not mean you see everything. If the players were calling each other out in front of the media that would be a huge negative story. That isn't the answer.

To me, the word accountable comes to mind. We watch shitty play by the same players every week. There is no accountability. I do not care if it is a vet like Bathea or a rookie like Baker. There is zero accountability. That is a foundation of any good team whether it comes from the players or it comes from the coaches or even management but you have to have it.



And you usually see articles like this when the wheels are coming off.

I think equally interesting is that Schwartz feels "safe" writing an article like this. He's been through this a few times now. He knows the politics involved.


I definitely agree with that last part. It is like he is getting the okay to put this out there publicly to get the fans on the side of change. The smell of change is in the air. But to what extent is the real question. The empty seats and amount of opposing fans in the stadium seems to be getting the point across loud and clear.
And to add to that article.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 6:56 am : link
We have sorely missed that voice in the locker room. Strachan tiptoed the line but I will give examples.

We had loud voices such as Pierce, Jacobs, Rolle and while they were "loud" they led in a specific way where they weren't calling anybody out publicly. At least it was rare and had a specific purpose.

But then you look at someone like Collins who constantly was loud but loud by saying stupid shit. We were all frustrated by Apple. To call him out publicly on multiple occasions wasn't the right thing to do. Ever since he left he isn't even happy to be in Washington when compared to putting down the Giants.

We need more players like Pierce, Jacobs, and Rolle. These players had clear limitations and some more than others but it is beyond clear now that they brought way more to their teams than just their play on the field.
This to me goes on the Head Coach  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/4/2019 7:17 am : link
He started in training camp with always talking about how young the team was.

Right now the culture that exists seems put in your time during the week with a good attitude. Your young so we understand.

The players have no fear. The problem I think this coach has is he has never won and he knows he does not have the credibility...he has never one. His fear is that he knows he will lose the team if he takes a hard line stance.
When I played in college we had a leadership council.  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 7:21 am : link
I know that Coughlin at one time had it as well. It is such a simple thing to do to empower specific players to police themselves as well as open up the lines of communication with the coaching staff. Players can voice their opinions to the leaders who then bring it back to the coaches. It seems to help in situations like this.
Bring in Stephen Belichick for a look...  
nzyme : 12/4/2019 7:21 am : link
Not sure if he's ready but no one thought Tomlin was either when he surprised everyone and won the job in Pittsburgh.
This is what happens  
JoeyBigBlue : 12/4/2019 7:23 am : link
When your locker room is filled with rookie and second year players, and thereís no 4th, 5th, 6th year veterans that have only known playing for the Giants. Reese really really gutted this team.
And when I say help  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2019 7:23 am : link
I mean more preventing issues from getting to this level.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fuck McDaniels.  
MBavaro : 12/4/2019 7:24 am : link
In comment 14702200 huygens20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14702197 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 14702193 huygens20 said:


Quote:


In comment 14702190 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


So fuckin overrated.



Idk if heís ever gonna be a good head coach, but heís a genius as an offensive coordinator


There was a great article about his play calling in the super bowl vs rams and how he forced the rams into a personnel grouping that they could exploit. He ainít just calling plays like shurmur.



Not sure that is a genius as much as it is his job. Any good OC should be doing that but I guess with what we've seen lately as Giants fans it isn't so common.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/05/07/super-bowl-53-rams-defense-sean-mcvay-wade-phillips-nickell-robey-coleman-cory-littleton


Great read irrespective of the McDaniels stuff


Iíd hire him in a minute over any other re tread


McDaniels would be a re tread. He had a historically bad short run as a head coach a decade ago. It makes our current HC look like Lombardi
RE: Bring in Stephen Belichick for a look...  
Chris in Philly : 12/4/2019 7:30 am : link
In comment 14702217 nzyme said:
Quote:
Not sure if he's ready but no one thought Tomlin was either when he surprised everyone and won the job in Pittsburgh.


Does his father come with him? Otherwise what has he done to merit consideration as an NFL head coach?
RE: RE: I usually hate articles like this.  
V.I.G. : 12/4/2019 7:53 am : link
In comment 14702191 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14702187 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


Being in the locker room for a little but of time does not mean you see everything. If the players were calling each other out in front of the media that would be a huge negative story. That isn't the answer.

To me, the word accountable comes to mind. We watch shitty play by the same players every week. There is no accountability. I do not care if it is a vet like Bathea or a rookie like Baker. There is zero accountability. That is a foundation of any good team whether it comes from the players or it comes from the coaches or even management but you have to have it.



And you usually see articles like this when the wheels are coming off.

I think equally interesting is that Schwartz feels "safe" writing an article like this. He's been through this a few times now. He knows the politics involved.

Political cover for Schwartz was my first thought here.

I have to wonder though - how much of it is this ‚Äėcultural cleansing‚Äô that we were pitched. The players see Collins and OBJ shipped off. They may recognize that they crossed the line. But maybe it‚Äôs too much for them to know where the line of the ‚ÄėGiants Way‚Äô is - so they just play it safe and that‚Äôs why there‚Äôs no life, no ‚Äúheart‚ÄĚ
No surprise...  
bw in dc : 12/4/2019 7:53 am : link
This is the culture of losing put together by Gettleman.
I thought removing OBJ  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 12/4/2019 8:12 am : link
Fixed the locker room and we were going to win more games because they loved each other?
Shockingly bad  
Joey in VA : 12/4/2019 8:14 am : link
Is that Jenkins and Shepard are the two longest tenured guys after Eli and DeOssie. Think about that, one guy who is a bit of a wing nut and another who constantly misses games are the longest tenured Giants. Where does the leadership come from? Jones I assume defers to Manning for now, Solder and Ogletree seem like nice enough guys but their play isn't worthy of leading anything.

Purging those 4, Manning, DeOssie, Solder and Ogletree wipes the slate clean for someone, anyone to take over. Barkley seems like a candidate, perhaps Lawrence, but we simply seem rudderless in the locker room. There are precisely zero players with the talent and resume to stand up and be listened to. Shurmur should be the shepherd here, but he seems intent on protecting his flock more than leading it. He has to push harder, bench bad play and demand accountability and I just don't see it.
RE: Shockingly bad  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/4/2019 8:16 am : link
In comment 14702253 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Is that Jenkins and Shepard are the two longest tenured guys after Eli and DeOssie. Think about that, one guy who is a bit of a wing nut and another who constantly misses games are the longest tenured Giants. Where does the leadership come from? Jones I assume defers to Manning for now, Solder and Ogletree seem like nice enough guys but their play isn't worthy of leading anything.

Purging those 4, Manning, DeOssie, Solder and Ogletree wipes the slate clean for someone, anyone to take over. Barkley seems like a candidate, perhaps Lawrence, but we simply seem rudderless in the locker room. There are precisely zero players with the talent and resume to stand up and be listened to. Shurmur should be the shepherd here, but he seems intent on protecting his flock more than leading it. He has to push harder, bench bad play and demand accountability and I just don't see it.


Truth is - that no one who was sent away/ not signed in the last two years could have done it either
That gets to the heart of the issue  
mfsd : 12/4/2019 8:29 am : link
DG and company - in all their wisdom...decided guys like Snacks, Collins, and OBJ werenít the leaders they wanted.

I donít think they were wrong in that assessment (Collins maybe, but he didnít handle the Apple stuff well). But they donít have the guys to replace them yet.

Hereís the issue - it takes more than just being a veteran, guys have to be respected for their performance on the field. Schwartz makes a good point that guys like Ogletree, Solder, and Thomas canít play they role, bc theyíre just not good enough for the young guys to respect and listen to.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fuck McDaniels.  
Thankyoueli : 12/4/2019 8:39 am : link
In comment 14702200 huygens20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14702197 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 14702193 huygens20 said:


Quote:


In comment 14702190 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


So fuckin overrated.



Idk if heís ever gonna be a good head coach, but heís a genius as an offensive coordinator


There was a great article about his play calling in the super bowl vs rams and how he forced the rams into a personnel grouping that they could exploit. He ainít just calling plays like shurmur.



Not sure that is a genius as much as it is his job. Any good OC should be doing that but I guess with what we've seen lately as Giants fans it isn't so common.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/05/07/super-bowl-53-rams-defense-sean-mcvay-wade-phillips-nickell-robey-coleman-cory-littleton


Great read irrespective of the McDaniels stuff


Iíd hire him in a minute over any other re tread


I've seen this word thrown around a whole lot and still have no idea wtf it means (in the absurdly inconsistent way you guys are using it)
Several good points made  
fkap : 12/4/2019 8:42 am : link
Getting rid of anyone vocal has to have had a hushed effect on those left behind.

The fire sale mid season is only one offseason away. New leaders aren't going to spring up overnight, especially if a huge portion of the team is so young/new.

It's on the coaching staff to fill the void. If you don't respect the boss/teacher, you don't buy in to the overall effort.
RE: Bring in Stephen Belichick for a look...  
cokeduplt : 12/4/2019 8:56 am : link
In comment 14702217 nzyme said:
Quote:
Not sure if he's ready but no one thought Tomlin was either when he surprised everyone and won the job in Pittsburgh.



Yes more nepotism is what we need
All we heard coming into the season  
Section331 : 12/4/2019 9:00 am : link
was how vocal the veteran leadership on the team was. It is hard to be vocal when you are 2-10. Even the most easily-influenced young player will tune out a guy yelling in the locker room after yet another loss.

That said, I agree with Eric that the fact that Schwartz wrote this piece now is an indictment of Shurmur's tenure.
Good article  
GiantFanInTX : 12/4/2019 9:06 am : link
Your team is a direct reflection of the head coachís persona. Right now itís a perennial loser... just like its head coach.
Funny how winning  
Beef Wellington : 12/4/2019 9:37 am : link
Automatically produces leaders. No one wants to take ownership on a team this bad.
RE: All we heard coming into the season  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/4/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14702285 Section331 said:
Quote:
was how vocal the veteran leadership on the team was. It is hard to be vocal when you are 2-10. Even the most easily-influenced young player will tune out a guy yelling in the locker room after yet another loss.

That said, I agree with Eric that the fact that Schwartz wrote this piece now is an indictment of Shurmur's tenure.


It's also hard to listen to a veteran who is playing and getting burned or blown past every game if you are a young player.

Take Bethea for example, who was supposedly brought in for leadership and his knowledge of the defense. You then see him consistently torched and giving up touchdowns and big plays while you sit behind him on the depth chart trying to get some snaps. After awhile, you are thinking (at least I would), "Bro, you are not any good. Why do I need to listen to you?"

Michael Thomas, same thing. He barely plays. Why are guys suppose to listen to him?

Nate Solder. We all see the games and watch him turning into a turnstile. And I'm supposed to listen to him?

The team wanted guys who weren't loud and just shut up and obey. They thought the guys they let go were a part of the problem. Issue now is they have not brought in players who are any better than the ones they let go, but are simply "less noisy."

This to me was the sad part about the Odell situation when he was here. The team was so devoid of talent in addition to veteran leadership, that he was able to take that void and exploit it. No one could say anything to him to reel him in. On a team with guys who police each other and are producing at a high level, some of the things that cropped up could have been handled easily before they got out of control.
Bethea and Ogletree  
BlueHurricane : 12/4/2019 10:20 am : link
Weíre supposed to be those guys on D. Unfortunately they are limited and itís made worse by horrific coaching.

Zeitler and Solder could be the guys on O but again....... Hal Hunter

The sadness of this is that this is what  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 12/4/2019 10:32 am : link
Happens when you lose...fingers get pointed, stories (true or not) that no one cares, the chemistry is wrong.

This is the tale of a losing organization...it is a common theme. Every losing team has it.

This entire organization needs an enema
I like the idea of having S.B. on the coaching staff.  
Giant John : 12/4/2019 10:32 am : link
Guess what his Dad isnít going to want to see him fail. Iím sure Bill will have some ďsuggestionsĒ for his son. Next best thing to bringing Bill in which wonít happen.
All of the guys wearing "C"'s on their uniform are not performing  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/4/2019 11:27 am : link
while at the same time getting paid a ton of money. Who's going to listen to them?
Been a heartless and leaderless lockerroom for years.  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/4/2019 11:35 am : link
It's about time people are starting to notice. Just alittle slow on the uptake most folks are.
I don't know how this is surprising  
jcn56 : 12/4/2019 11:35 am : link
It's basic team composition - there aren't enough established veteran leaders. Further, they went on a crusade to crush anyone that didn't completely toe the company line. Beckham? Fine. Collins? He was a problem for calling out a headcase like Apple?

You'd have the same problem on any type of team, not even sports. Take a team of young software engineers - even with a solid manager, they need a peer with some experience they can lean on for things that they don't want to take to their management.

The Giants built a failure machine, and they're surprised that it's failing.
RE: RE: Fuck McDaniels.  
gmenatlarge : 12/4/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14702193 huygens20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14702190 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


So fuckin overrated.



Idk if heís ever gonna be a good head coach, but heís a genius as an offensive coordinator


There was a great article about his play calling in the super bowl vs rams and how he forced the rams into a personnel grouping that they could exploit. He ainít just calling plays like shurmur.


It's easy to be a so-called "genius" when you have the GOAT at HC and QB...
RE: Bethea and Ogletree  
gmenatlarge : 12/4/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14702455 BlueHurricane said:
Quote:
Weíre supposed to be those guys on D. Unfortunately they are limited and itís made worse by horrific coaching.

Zeitler and Solder could be the guys on O but again....... Hal Hunter


"limited" is being way too kind...
Yes, I hear they are very cruel  
jeff57 : 12/4/2019 11:40 am : link
.
RE: I don't know how this is surprising  
Chris in Philly : 12/4/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14702649 jcn56 said:
Quote:
It's basic team composition - there aren't enough established veteran leaders. Further, they went on a crusade to crush anyone that didn't completely toe the company line. Beckham? Fine. Collins? He was a problem for calling out a headcase like Apple?

You'd have the same problem on any type of team, not even sports. Take a team of young software engineers - even with a solid manager, they need a peer with some experience they can lean on for things that they don't want to take to their management.

The Giants built a failure machine, and they're surprised that it's failing.


Would you have given Collins 6 years/$84M?
But I read  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/4/2019 1:08 pm : link
Tanney was good in teh rooms?
RE: RE: All we heard coming into the season  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/4/2019 1:11 pm : link
In comment 14702434 BigBlueinChicago said:
Quote:
In comment 14702285 Section331 said:


Quote:


was how vocal the veteran leadership on the team was. It is hard to be vocal when you are 2-10. Even the most easily-influenced young player will tune out a guy yelling in the locker room after yet another loss.

That said, I agree with Eric that the fact that Schwartz wrote this piece now is an indictment of Shurmur's tenure.



It's also hard to listen to a veteran who is playing and getting burned or blown past every game if you are a young player.

Take Bethea for example, who was supposedly brought in for leadership and his knowledge of the defense. You then see him consistently torched and giving up touchdowns and big plays while you sit behind him on the depth chart trying to get some snaps. After awhile, you are thinking (at least I would), "Bro, you are not any good. Why do I need to listen to you?"

Michael Thomas, same thing. He barely plays. Why are guys suppose to listen to him?

Nate Solder. We all see the games and watch him turning into a turnstile. And I'm supposed to listen to him?

The team wanted guys who weren't loud and just shut up and obey. They thought the guys they let go were a part of the problem. Issue now is they have not brought in players who are any better than the ones they let go, but are simply "less noisy."

This to me was the sad part about the Odell situation when he was here. The team was so devoid of talent in addition to veteran leadership, that he was able to take that void and exploit it. No one could say anything to him to reel him in. On a team with guys who police each other and are producing at a high level, some of the things that cropped up could have been handled easily before they got out of control.

A 6'4" 270 lb 4.5 40 RB battering ramming and scrambling DB brains you listen too.
god you people complain  
Rory : 12/4/2019 1:12 pm : link
alot, its a bad year, young team, didnt get the breaks get over it.
RE: god you people complain  
Metnut : 12/4/2019 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14702833 Rory said:
Quote:
alot, its a bad year, young team, didnt get the breaks get over it.


Didn't get the breaks? LOL

They've been outscored by over 100 points this season! One of NYG's only wins was because TB missed a chip shot FG to bail out our awful defense.
RE: god you people complain  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/4/2019 1:16 pm : link
In comment 14702833 Rory said:
Quote:
alot, its a bad year, young team, didnt get the breaks get over it.


"Bad year?" More like a bad 7 years. God, you people don't even pay attention and can't even count.
RE: god you people complain  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/4/2019 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14702833 Rory said:
Quote:
alot, its a bad year, young team, didnt get the breaks get over it.


Yeah, we should be over the moon that we've had one winning season since the first year of Obama's second term.
they got rid of or didnt retain  
hitdog42 : 12/4/2019 1:32 pm : link
the vocal players--- and the players who had any success in the post SB run giants teams...
so what did they expect?
It's s pretty irrelevant take and story as a whole  
Torrag : 12/4/2019 1:58 pm : link
The future is young players. It takes time for such to grow into leadership roles. Does that means there maybe a vocal void right now in the locker room? Maybe but it should sort itself out soon as these guys progress in their careers. Does it mean they lack heart because they don't scream and yell after a loss? No.
"Culture".  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/4/2019 2:31 pm : link
.
This is incredibly random and off-topic  
Leg of Theismann : 12/4/2019 2:37 pm : link
But I just thought of this the other day and looked it up... Isn't it weird to think about the fact that Antoine Bethea is older than Terrell Thomas?

Again, I know, random, and that means nothing... I just randomly thought that was weird. If anything it's surprising to think about the fact Thomas was out of the league by the time he turned 30.
Football Teams take on the personalities  
arniefez : 12/4/2019 3:11 pm : link
of their Head Coach. Enough said.
What happened to the  
liteamorn : 12/4/2019 5:30 pm : link
Matt Rhule conversation that was going on around here, I like what I read about him here, I like what he brings (winning) He's young and could be around a long time and he ain't a retread.
OBJ a leader?  
uther99 : 12/4/2019 5:47 pm : link
This is such revisionist history, OBJ was a total "ME" player and still is.

Collins - he was not worth 84 million and would not play on the tag.

You guys re-write history cuz your pissed off.

There's no leadership because it's essentially a whole new roster
RE: I don't know how this is surprising  
Percy : 12/4/2019 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14702649 jcn56 said:
Quote:
It's basic team composition - there aren't enough established veteran leaders. Further, they went on a crusade to crush anyone that didn't completely toe the company line. Beckham? Fine. Collins? He was a problem for calling out a headcase like Apple?

You'd have the same problem on any type of team, not even sports. Take a team of young software engineers - even with a solid manager, they need a peer with some experience they can lean on for things that they don't want to take to their management.

The Giants built a failure machine, and they're surprised that it's failing.

Right on. Last sentence says it all.
RE: RE: I don't know how this is surprising  
jcn56 : 12/4/2019 6:25 pm : link
In comment 14702683 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:

Would you have given Collins 6 years/$84M?


No, but I would have at least tried negotiating with the guy and made it a point I wanted to keep him.

The Giants wanted him out, presumably because he talked too much. Obligatory Josina Whatsherface mention here.

Well, they got a much more civil team. A bunch of well established losers, but they're at least civil.
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