I have been reading a ton of posts about Ron Rivera's poor season to season w-l record and # of winning seasons. Some of those are correct in a vacuum but, take a deeper look here.
2011- 6-10 (first year as coach) PS, in his second stint as a HC went 5-11 with us in his first year. Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in his first season as a HC.
2012- 7-9 improved over his first year. They had a number of close losses throughout the season (just needed to learn how to finish-sound familiar? Well they did learn and won 5 out of their last 6 games. Momentum carried into the next season.
2013- 12-4 They started the season 1 -3 (win #1 was blowing us out 38-0) and finished 12-4. That marks three straight seasons of improvement in record.
2014- 7-8-1 (though they won the division). In an odd change of events they started this season 2-0. They were 3-8-1 at one point and won their last 4 games to finish 7-8-1. Keep in mind they won a playoff game this season too. Wouildn't any of us be thrilled if the Giants had gone on a roll and made the playoffs at 7-8-1 or 7-9 (a possibility for the NFC East this season) and went on to win a playoff game?
2015- 15-1 with a dominating regular season capped off by a run to the SB. They lost to Peyton Manning and more specifically the Broncos defense. How can this be seen as a negative? We beat an undefeated Pats team in the SB, does that make Bill B a failure?
2016- 6-10 Coming off a SB appearance they had some ups and downs and lost a number of very close games. Are they unique in the post SB appearance blues? Go back and look at the Giants 87, 91, 2001 alone for that answer.
2017- 11-5 another winning season and playoff appearance. They lost a close game in New Orleans in the playoffs.
2018- 7-9 season but with a number of close losses. Keep in mind, they were somewhat handcuffed by Newton's shoulder issue that really caused a major decline in his play. They still finished at 7-9 . Keep in mind those 7 wins equal all the wins Pat Shurmur has over the last two seasons.
2019- 5-7 and honestly I think this might be one of Rivera's better seasons. He had a clearly limited and injured Cam Newton starting at QB. He had to get Newton off the field and the PR around all of that couldn't have been easy. They lost a tight game to the Rams (with Newton at QB) and lost a tight game against TB where Turner clearly had to overcome the fact that Newton couldn't hit fucking a fucking pillow laying in bed.. So with an UDFA QB the Panthers are 5-5. They were 5-1 with the UDFA and clearly he has hit a wall. The new Owner of the Panthers wants his stamp on the team and that probably includes letting Newton go. Think about the timing of the firing. It makes it a lot easier to let your successful HC go at 5-7 than it would be if they finished 7-9 or 8-8 with an UDFA at QB. Tepper wants his team and his staff. This is clearing the decks early as a playoff spot was pretty unlikely and keeps any possible questions about should or shouldn't he fire Rivera off the table.
I think Rivera, with a stud OC ( Turner and his son) and a stud DC (Dan Quinn perhaps???) could turn this franchise around quickly.
Lots of ups and downs as a coach.
As I said, very Fassel, Fox, Fisher like in his first stop (or in Fassel's case his only stop).
He's a "retread" and he's clearly stuck in "the giant way" of doing things (somehow).
There are 3 kinds of coaches I dont want. Ones with no head coaching experience, coaches who have a 500 or below record, and MOST of all coaches who have a winning record.
6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5
5-11
with Cleveland. That was in an ear where their was far less salary issues (Cap??) and less quality player movement (FA).
Yes, the 5-11 records was during the team is going to move season but still, he was under .500 after in his first tenure as a HC...
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that he lost a lot of close games more than once. They also lost a bunch of close games this year. Do you think his game management style is causing that?
He was a coach there for almost a decade. You'd think at least once he'd be able to have two winning years in a row.
To lose close games you have to be in close games. Look at our record over the last 4 seasons. We have lost a ton of games by more than 7 points. I would rather be in games consistently than just not competitive.
This league is designed (Pats aside) to not let teams be successful year in and year out.
Teams like SEA, BAL, PIT, KC, and MIN (in addition to NE) are mostly putting up winning seasons in and year out with their coaches. Maybe not as good as the Pats, but still better track record than Rivera.
McVay's track record with the Rams isn't long enough yet, but things are looking pretty promising and he's on track to have more back to back winning seasons in his first two years than Rivera had in near a decade.
Rivera is just such an uninspiring hire and the only reason he's connected here is because of Gettleman (who by all accounts, must be fired after this year for all of his blunders).
If the argument for hiring him is that "playing in close games is an improvement over what we have now" then that's really sad and you've already given up and set the bar too low IMO.
6-10
7-9
7-9
11-5
5-11
with Cleveland. That was in an ear where their was far less salary issues (Cap??) and less quality player movement (FA).
Yes, the 5-11 records was during the team is going to move season but still, he was under .500 after in his first tenure as a HC...
DEAR GOD- era (ear) and there (their).. damn.
I want the Giants to be one of those teams. Not a mediocre franchise that can't string back to back winning seasons together in a decade like the Panthers under Rivera.
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In comment 14702351 Metnut said:
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that he lost a lot of close games more than once. They also lost a bunch of close games this year. Do you think his game management style is causing that?
He was a coach there for almost a decade. You'd think at least once he'd be able to have two winning years in a row.
To lose close games you have to be in close games. Look at our record over the last 4 seasons. We have lost a ton of games by more than 7 points. I would rather be in games consistently than just not competitive.
This league is designed (Pats aside) to not let teams be successful year in and year out.
Teams like SEA, BAL, PIT, KC, and MIN (in addition to NE) are mostly putting up winning seasons in and year out with their coaches. Maybe not as good as the Pats, but still better track record than Rivera.
McVay's track record with the Rams isn't long enough yet, but things are looking pretty promising and he's on track to have more back to back winning seasons in his first two years than Rivera had in near a decade.
Rivera is just such an uninspiring hire and the only reason he's connected here is because of Gettleman (who by all accounts, must be fired after this year for all of his blunders).
If the argument for hiring him is that "playing in close games is an improvement over what we have now" then that's really sad and you've already given up and set the bar too low IMO.
Holy shit, you are using Minn and KC as examples here??? Umm please help me here, how many playoff wins has KC's regular season wins turned into? Minnesota? How many times have they made the playoffs and lost right off or gone into a season expected to win and finish with a mediocre record? Come on, that is a truly false narrative.
Including Pittsburgh is interesting. They have been successful with basically three HC's since the early 70's. Show me any other franchise that has had that level of consistency and success. So trying to say that Rivera is a bad coach or not worthy coach because the Steelers have been successful longer is just not fair. By that account no other coaches would be worthy!
Publicly there has been nothing but praise.
“It was a very positive situation, I really enjoyed working with him. He’s a northeast guy and you can feel it when dealing with him. The one thing with Dave, Dave was always upfront, a straight shooter, very honest — brutally honest, almost to a fault – but he was a lot of fun to be around.”
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Panther fans can't stand him and say his play-calling is vanilla and predictable. Sound familiar?
While they do say he can utilize CMC, THAT'S IT. Doesn't matter how good your running back is if the rest of the offense isn't producing. They feel that he is the one that should have been fired not Ron.
Head coach says the way the Panthers have developed and gotten control of the salary cap over the last three years makes the job general manager Dave Gettleman has done worthy of recognition.
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Which is odd in and of itself considering that duo, just a few years ago, yielded a 15-1 Superbowl team.
Agreed, some don't like the move because it will be criticized as a "Giants Way" type of move. Rivera has done a very good job in Carolina.
Rivera has also proven the ability to attract quality assistants to his staff (Sean McDermott, Norv Turner).
He cited this as the finest coaching job of his career.
we'd be wise to stop eliminating an entire pool of candidates from either camp and try to judge the individual based on what we actually know of them and their record.
Panther fans can't stand him and say his play-calling is vanilla and predictable. Sound familiar?
While they do say he can utilize CMC, THAT'S IT. Doesn't matter how good your running back is if the rest of the offense isn't producing. They feel that he is the one that should have been fired not Ron.
Panthers fans are morons who can't come to gribs that Cam is shot and Kyle Allen is a career backup.
I wonder what Jim Fassel and Ernie are up to.
Rivera receives instant credibility when he walks into the locker room as someone that has turned a team around before.
this organization need credibility, direction, and stability immediately that only a experienced HC can provide that.
Rivera can put a solid staff together quickly with people that have his philosophy and direction baked in.
as young as this team is imo that's what they need out of the gate.
He can provide a structure and foundation.
I wonder what Jim Fassel and Ernie are up to.
You could have said the same about Coughlin. Probably did, unless you are too young to remember that transition. I know bw was spouting that same stale Giants Way line back then, while propping up Dan Snyder.
To me Rivera brings us more of the same from 2012-2016. Inconsistent teams that are up and down.
You can't look at what Coughlin did and say, it's the same pattern! That means he'll win here! That's not how this works.
Rivera is an upgrade over Shurmur, frankly anyone is, but I don't think he's the guy for us.
That was a great Deep Dive into Riverboat Ron's tenure in Carolina. I was down here for their 2015 Run to SB. That Team played some good football down the stretch. I didn't particularly like that team (Josh Norman, et al)....but I acknowledge the Defensive schemes that Ron and Sean McDermott put on the field. Sean's doing alright for himself in Buffalo these days.
What I recall of the DG / RR partnership was that DG rebuilt their OL into respectability.
I think he'd be a good choice for us, frankly. His defenses always came to play.
I would prefer a coach who has demonstrated that he can build from the bottom up.
There are very few coaches available who have that resume.
It would appear that Rivera has built a very good team from the bottom.
If it isn't Rivera I do not want someone who does not have head coaching experience.
I would then prefer a college head coach with a proven record of success.
Rivera did pretty damn well with the Panthers- who good and bad were saddled to Newton. Last year Cam was injured and just not playing well for a good portion of the season.
This year, he was awful in the first two weeks and the team has been playing an UDFA at QB. Come on, you can't count this season as a bad year for Rivera coaching wise. 5-7 with basically a 3rd string QB starting. Where would PS be if handed the same thing? Hell, we have a 6th pick in the draft QB starting with a #2 pick in the draft starting RB. We look awful and CMac far out performs SB and is on the field more and touches the ball more... Injury or not, the Panthers and their staff have done a great job with what they have.
I would prefer a coach who has demonstrated that he can build from the bottom up.
There are very few coaches available who have that resume.
It would appear that Rivera has built a very good team from the bottom.
If it isn't Rivera I do not want someone who does not have head coaching experience.
I would then prefer a college head coach with a proven record of success.
Harbaugh is choice #1 but I highly doubt we go after him. Rivera (barring someone unforeseen being available) with Turner , Kubiak or Gruden is choice #2 on my list.
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These two are sure getting a lot of burn for getting their ass kicked in the Super Bowl, and then progressively declining to the point of being fired.
I wonder what Jim Fassel and Ernie are up to.
You could have said the same about Coughlin. Probably did, unless you are too young to remember that transition. I know bw was spouting that same stale Giants Way line back then, while propping up Dan Snyder.
Coughlin took a year of self reflection, consulted, and came to the Giants with a sharp POV on how to build the program.
If Rivera were to do the same, that would benefit him greatly. He's at then end of a successful, and then progressively failing run. He's literally getting fired because ownership doesn't think he's a progressive and relevant coach.
If he (and honestly Gettleman) spent some time assessing the landscape and had a plan to combine what he's good at with what's required now to run a competitive football program in the next 5 years, he'd be a good a candidate.
Dropping him into the job with Resume Dave just to get the band back together is sloppy.
I mean, you're awesome at guessing the ridiculous things the Giants will do, so you're probably spot on that this will happen.
Which is odd in and of itself considering that duo, just a few years ago, yielded a 15-1 Superbowl team.
I think there's some bias on your part - prior to Rivera's swoon this year, even before he was mentioned as a candidate, you had people all over BBI railing against retreads, former NFL HCs, wanting younger, unproven up and coming coordinators (Saleh and Richard) and college coaches (Rhule and Riley).
Saying that everyone is against Rivera simply because he's worked with Gettleman before isn't fair in any way, there's too much evidence prior to his availability to suggest otherwise.
The facts are Rivera has 3 winning seasons in his 9 year run in carolina. The last several of which have gotten progressively worse. Interesting to note the further removed from gettelman's presence he's been the worse things have gotten.
What you're attempting to do with your spin is interject your opinion to change the perception of facts to start a false narrative. You should explore a career in journalism. You're off to a good start.
Rivera would Install a top 10 defense and instantly provide credibility.
Shurmur needs to go. Sign me up for Riverboat Ron
Thankyoueli : 12/4/2019 9:45 am : link : reply
And your "cOnTeXt"
He's a "retread" and he's clearly stuck in "the giant way" of doing things (somehow).
There are 3 kinds of coaches I dont want. Ones with no head coaching experience, coaches who have a 500 or below record, and MOST of all coaches who have a winning record.
If not, you are a fucking moron. You don't want a winning coach?
The whole story with Coughlin and Eli is that we will forever be grateful to them for winning us those 2 super bowls, and 2005-2012 was easily my favorite run as a Giants fan in my entire life, but it was BECAUSE OF those 2 SB wins. Take those 8 playoff wins away and Coughlin really did not have a very good career here. It's not typically the case that a guy has a mediocre record overall but then randomly has 2 super bowl wins, but Coughlin was a rare case, and I'm not saying that takes anything away from his legacy AT ALL, I'm just saying his path while Giant HC was a rare one.
So I would shy away from pointing out things like "well look, Rivera went 7-8-1 and went to the playoffs, just like Coughlin went 8-8 and went to the playoffs! So I think we'd be pretty happy with another Tom Coughlin, right??" Well we didn't love Coughlin for his 8-8 playoff year, we loved him for his 2 super bowl wins, those were the wins that made him special in our hearts, but it's ludicrous to just say "well yeah coach xyz is mediocre, so was Coughlin, and he won us 2 super bowls!" Typically mediocrity is a sign of more mediocrity, not a sign of 2 SB wins, but Coughlin was literally the exception that proved the rule.
Leg of Theismann : 9:14 pm : link : reply
are viewed a positive thing.
The whole story with Coughlin and Eli is that we will forever be grateful to them for winning us those 2 super bowls, and 2005-2012 was easily my favorite run as a Giants fan in my entire life, but it was BECAUSE OF those 2 SB wins. Take those 8 playoff wins away and Coughlin really did not have a very good career here.
We all know the 2 SB wins, but it is like some of you blocked from memory the fact we competed many years. We weren't below .500 from 2005 to 2012. That's 8 years in a row.
But yet, we'll hear daily about how the Giants are one of the worst teams in the league.
The whole story of Coughlin is by nearly every metric, his tenure was very good. It should be looked at as a positive thing, but as your posts points out, it isn't looked at that way..
Decide for yourself if it is because of stupidity or ignorance.
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In comment 14702497 christian said:
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These two are sure getting a lot of burn for getting their ass kicked in the Super Bowl, and then progressively declining to the point of being fired.
I wonder what Jim Fassel and Ernie are up to.
You could have said the same about Coughlin. Probably did, unless you are too young to remember that transition. I know bw was spouting that same stale Giants Way line back then, while propping up Dan Snyder.
Coughlin took a year of self reflection, consulted, and came to the Giants with a sharp POV on how to build the program.
If Rivera were to do the same, that would benefit him greatly. He's at then end of a successful, and then progressively failing run. He's literally getting fired because ownership doesn't think he's a progressive and relevant coach.
If he (and honestly Gettleman) spent some time assessing the landscape and had a plan to combine what he's good at with what's required now to run a competitive football program in the next 5 years, he'd be a good a candidate.
Dropping him into the job with Resume Dave just to get the band back together is sloppy.
I mean, you're awesome at guessing the ridiculous things the Giants will do, so you're probably spot on that this will happen.
Ha ha. This simply may be the funniest comment I have read this season.
Kudos...
The whole story of Coughlin is by nearly every metric, his tenure was very good. It should be looked at as a positive thing, but as your posts points out, it isn't looked at that way..
You took half a sentence I wrote and based on that said that my post implies that I don't look at Coughlin's tenure here as a "positive thing", and then called me stupid and/or ignorant.
Literally all I said was that *if you take away those 8 playoff wins (i.e. those 2 super bowls)*, Coughlin didn't have that great of a career here. How could you argue against this? In his other 10 seasons (besides the 2 SBs) he didn't win a single playoff game, so of course it wouldn't have been a good career. But of course the goal is to win the super bowl and he did that twice and therefore is one of the greatest Giants coaches of all time. My post was meant like 99% to be praising Coughlin. I even said those 8 years were my favorite years as a Giants fan and after what you quoted me on I went on to say none of that takes away from his great legacy here.
It wasn't meant to be bashing Coughlin in any way, he's still probably my favorite Giants coach and I DO NOT think those super bowl runs were flukes. I was simply saying that drawing comparisons to Coughlin's record really only makes sense if you are specifically talking postseason and super bowl record (and specifically in those 2 years). A lot of coaches have had TC's lifetime regular season winning %, most of them never won a super bowl though.
I'll put it this way: It's like people who say "well Tom Brady was a 6th round pick" as evidence for why this or that QB taken in later rounds will have a great career. Brady was a rare gem, and was the exception that proves the rule. Coughlin I believe was a rare gem who wasn't necessarily a genius HC but he did know how to get the best out of his teams when it mattered most, and that's a HOF trait unto itself. But we don't have evidence that Rivera has that trait and simply comparing his record in this year or that year to Coughlin doesn't necessarily mean he is going to have that Coughlin trait.
Remember nearly every coaches run ends badly...it's the nature of the business if they don't skip town like Bill did after the '90 season.
He was a coach there for almost a decade. You'd think at least once he'd be able to have two winning years in a row.
I too find "lots of close loses" a GIANT concern.
One of the strengths of the better coaches is precisely their ability to win close games. Parcels was masterful at this, though it drove me crazy, because part of his method was overall conservatism blended with unpredictable risk taking.
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Screw you
Thankyoueli : 12/4/2019 9:45 am : link : reply
And your "cOnTeXt"
He's a "retread" and he's clearly stuck in "the giant way" of doing things (somehow).
There are 3 kinds of coaches I dont want. Ones with no head coaching experience, coaches who have a 500 or below record, and MOST of all coaches who have a winning record.
If not, you are a fucking moron. You don't want a winning coach?
Uhhh.... Not very good at recognizing sarcasm for sure are you? I mean he literally excluded everybody. There isn't a single person on the planet that passes all those requirements and never will be.... By definition.
he will be the number one HC for any team to get
I can think of 7 teams off the top of my head that will do anything possible to get Rivera
If Gettleman and Rivera still have a good relationship this is a no brainer