1. Prior success with Gettleman
2. After 2 failed offensive coaches, should go defense
3. Possibility of Chase Young
4. Suggests Rivera would like to work with Jones
the problem(s) with your points are that 1)There is no way the Giants make the changes you (and most people including myself want them) to make regarding structure UNLESS Tisch channels his inner Tim J. Mara. Failing that, there is no point in expending willpower and emotional investment on wishful thinking.
2)The other problem is that there's no proof that Teppers approach is the correct one either. For all we know, he could be about to royally fuck things on multiple levels.
I was ok with hiring Rivera until reading mittendams post Â
Asshole is an expert here. We need to fix the defense first and foremost, and get an offesive line for our QB. We also need an offesive coordinator that can work well with Jones. Looks to me like all the boxes are checked, he also will bring the stability needed. Last time we hired an experienced coach with a history of some success was Coughlin, we did okay with him, there is not one new system with sustained success, this is a huge upgrade over what we have, maybe we can even get back to chanting defense. IT still wins championships and will again.
He’s a coach capable of winning a championship. He’s a guy you can visualize holding the Lombardi one day. I did not feel that way about Shurmur or Mcadoo.
Similar philosophy to selecting a franchise QB. If you can’t see the guy ever holding the Lombardi trophy, he shouldn’t be the guy.
all the hostility from Gilbride and TC was telling.
When KG was let go, he was irritated that he'd gone to management years back warning the OL was deteriorating. He always believed pass pro + a run game "if you keep him upright" was key and Eli could take you all the way. (And no that is not true of all QBs.) He then got blamed after the OL clunked out and Eli faltered. "They've figured out his system." KG famously retorted they haven't figured it out in 30 years. It killed TC to have to let KG go.
Fast forward to TC - the ultimate man of principle - unable to even shake Mara's hand in public at his closing press conference. Not hard to imagine what that was all about. Then remember Mara saying "we gave Tom more say than any coach we've ever had".
These 2 lifelong football guys were being ignored as the Super Bowl team Accorsi built started eroding.
this brings back such bad memories. mara damn well should've given his two-time SB winning coach a fucking say.
in the end mara chose to believe that 2013-2015 was evidence that coughlin was past his prime and decided to put his eggs in the reese-ross basket. it's no surprise the wheels fell off completely a couple of years after coughlin was told to walk.
fuck john mara.
he's single-handedly driven this franchise into the ground.
Any idea why a similar structure has worked so well with the Steelers? Both franchises are family owned - are the Steelers doing something differently in terms of football operations?
That's a great question, and I honestly have no idea. They seem to scout and acquire talent better than the Giants do, but then that leads to the question of why that happens.
They've only had 3 head coaches since 1969, and each of those three coaches has won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive. They've also had the same GM (Kevin Colbert) since 2000.
So we know they value continuity...but how did they arrive at these particular hires? Continuity for continuity's sake isn't necessarily a positive...does anyone think Shurmur would become a perennial divisional contender given 10 years on the job?
So let's take a quick look at their three key leadership figures these past 20 years.
GM Kevin Colbert
- 1984: BLESTO Scout
- '85-'89: Dolphins Scout
- '90-'00: Detroit Lions Pro Scouting Director
- '00-'19 (hired age 43): Pittsburgh Steelers Director of Football Operations, named the franchise's first ever GM in '10
HC Bill Cowher
- '85-'86: Cleveland Browns Special Teams Coach
- 87-88: Browns' Defensive Backs Coach
- 89-91: KC Defensive Coordinator
- 92-06 (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
HC Mike Tomlin
- 95: VMI WR coach
- 96: Memphis grad assistant
- 97: Arkansas State WR coach
- 98: Ark. State DB coach
- 99-00: Cincinnati U DB coach
- 01-05: Tampa Bay DB coach
- 06: Vikings DC
- 07-Present (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
So they hire young guys who haven't held a job at that level in the past, and once they have them they hold onto them.
To be a fly on the wall in their interview process...
The 2016 offseason was not handled well, but the idea was to maintain the stability - it was going to take a lot to fire Reese. McAdoo was groomed to take over from the time he was hired as OC.
Both McAdoo & Reese we’re young. 2017 was such a disaster that action needed to be taken.
I get that there won’t be drastic changes likely, but this is an opportunity to pair a new young GM with new young HC & start fresh. Give them both long-term contracts tying them together & give them time.
RE: RE: RE: If the Giants continue doing what seems logical to them Â
You really should checkout until the Mara's die off or sell the team.
Well it seems fairly reasonable, doesn't it? The Giants have employed a certain organizational methodology that, in the current NFL, has resulted in a 10-34 record the last three seasons. If they don't change the methodology, why would the results improve?
Why do people keep saying shit that simply isn’t true? The giants fucking cleaned house two years ago! They fired EVERYONE! They fired the HC. They fired all asst coaches. They fired mark Ross! They fired the GM! Everyone got wacked!
But DG had some ties to the org so that means what exactly? What does that mean?
Changing the HC changes a lot more than you want to believe. The giants went from awesome to chicken fried shit seemingly overnight when parcells was replaced by Handley. They went from a stale roster and team to an up n coming and energetic team when fassel replaced reeves.
Plus, we don’t even know what else is in the works but we don’t have a legit HC right now. Nothing will work until a legit HC is added to the mix.
I agree we don't have a legit head coach. We don't have a legit GM either. You know why? Because the process that was employed to hire them both wasn't legit, and that process is the result of an organizational structure that isn't legit.
I know it's hard to hear. I know you want to think the Giants are just a head coach away from competing.
I don't know what to tell you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: If the Giants continue doing what seems logical to them Â
You really should checkout until the Mara's die off or sell the team.
Well it seems fairly reasonable, doesn't it? The Giants have employed a certain organizational methodology that, in the current NFL, has resulted in a 10-34 record the last three seasons. If they don't change the methodology, why would the results improve?
What exactly is this methodology and how exactly does Rivera fit into this methodology?
Are there parallels between he and our last 2 coaches? I dont see one thing he has in common with either of them...
They are all people that Terps doesn't like, duh. They clearly didn't consult with him.
I agree-- and I think the Giants have been so bad for so long that a lot of posters are just desperate to get back to being mediocre (which is exactly what Rivera has been and would be).
Just because McAdoo and Shurmur were most-known as coordinators and ended up being failures here doesn't mean we should jump at hiring any available experienced HC who shakes free.
Outside of Jim Harbaugh hes one of the best choices available if you want PROVEN winning experience as a NFL HC.
No issue here unless we could have had Harbaugh but passed on him.
for all of the rivera is mediocre and fans are desperate for that...who is your pick? let me guess, you want to revolutinize the way we think and take a young guy. and if that fails? then what? we KNOW what we get from rivera. its like taking a steady paycheck vs trying to launch a new business. if it fails, your family doesnt eat. give me the safe route EVERY time when you have a young QB that needs molding and a defense that is young and in need of a revamping. people here always want the sexy, spicy hire. the fact is, i just want a fucking coach who has his head on and knows how to manage a locker room and football team. that guy is rivera. MANY teams will be after him. are they all "backwards" or "poor" thinking too?
I don't think "taking a steady paycheck" is a very good metaphor to use for football or any sport. I personally don't care to watch Rivera go .500 every season, make the playoffs once every 3-4 years and lose in the first round, just because we "know what we're getting" and that's better than the awful losing records we've seen the last 3 (and really the last 8) years. I don't want a steady paycheck. I want a damn super bowl. That often means you have to take some risks. At least one of if not more of the young guys out there that are available is one of the next great coaches in this league, and I'm willing to take a shot on someone new that is not handpicked by DG nor Mara nor anyone who's known either of those guys personally for the last 20 years. We need to start thinking forward and thinking about what the league is like today and where it is going. We can include some old-school Giant philosophy in our choice(s) but I don't like the idea of just getting a bunch of old guys who have never won a super bowl but did make a few playoff appearances here and there just because we want to "know exactly what we're getting".
2)The other problem is that there's no proof that Teppers approach is the correct one either. For all we know, he could be about to royally fuck things on multiple levels.
Thanks guys. :(
The underlying theme here is dispersion of responsibility, a classic management mistake.
When everyone is in charge, no one is in charge.
Similar philosophy to selecting a franchise QB. If you can’t see the guy ever holding the Lombardi trophy, he shouldn’t be the guy.
When KG was let go, he was irritated that he'd gone to management years back warning the OL was deteriorating. He always believed pass pro + a run game "if you keep him upright" was key and Eli could take you all the way. (And no that is not true of all QBs.) He then got blamed after the OL clunked out and Eli faltered. "They've figured out his system." KG famously retorted they haven't figured it out in 30 years. It killed TC to have to let KG go.
Fast forward to TC - the ultimate man of principle - unable to even shake Mara's hand in public at his closing press conference. Not hard to imagine what that was all about. Then remember Mara saying "we gave Tom more say than any coach we've ever had".
These 2 lifelong football guys were being ignored as the Super Bowl team Accorsi built started eroding.
this brings back such bad memories. mara damn well should've given his two-time SB winning coach a fucking say.
in the end mara chose to believe that 2013-2015 was evidence that coughlin was past his prime and decided to put his eggs in the reese-ross basket. it's no surprise the wheels fell off completely a couple of years after coughlin was told to walk.
fuck john mara.
he's single-handedly driven this franchise into the ground.
Thanks guys. :(
The underlying theme here is dispersion of responsibility, a classic management mistake.
When everyone is in charge, no one is in charge.
Sorry, man. We're in a bad way here.
They've only had 3 head coaches since 1969, and each of those three coaches has won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive. They've also had the same GM (Kevin Colbert) since 2000.
So we know they value continuity...but how did they arrive at these particular hires? Continuity for continuity's sake isn't necessarily a positive...does anyone think Shurmur would become a perennial divisional contender given 10 years on the job?
So let's take a quick look at their three key leadership figures these past 20 years.
GM Kevin Colbert
- 1984: BLESTO Scout
- '85-'89: Dolphins Scout
- '90-'00: Detroit Lions Pro Scouting Director
- '00-'19 (hired age 43): Pittsburgh Steelers Director of Football Operations, named the franchise's first ever GM in '10
HC Bill Cowher
- '85-'86: Cleveland Browns Special Teams Coach
- 87-88: Browns' Defensive Backs Coach
- 89-91: KC Defensive Coordinator
- 92-06 (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
HC Mike Tomlin
- 95: VMI WR coach
- 96: Memphis grad assistant
- 97: Arkansas State WR coach
- 98: Ark. State DB coach
- 99-00: Cincinnati U DB coach
- 01-05: Tampa Bay DB coach
- 06: Vikings DC
- 07-Present (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
So they hire young guys who haven't held a job at that level in the past, and once they have them they hold onto them.
To be a fly on the wall in their interview process...
They are. Dan Rooney Jr is in charge of Player Personnel.
And they have a tremendous history of great scouting.
Both McAdoo & Reese we’re young. 2017 was such a disaster that action needed to be taken.
I get that there won’t be drastic changes likely, but this is an opportunity to pair a new young GM with new young HC & start fresh. Give them both long-term contracts tying them together & give them time.
Quote:
In comment 14702792 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They'll continue to lose.
You really should checkout until the Mara's die off or sell the team.
Well it seems fairly reasonable, doesn't it? The Giants have employed a certain organizational methodology that, in the current NFL, has resulted in a 10-34 record the last three seasons. If they don't change the methodology, why would the results improve?
Why do people keep saying shit that simply isn’t true? The giants fucking cleaned house two years ago! They fired EVERYONE! They fired the HC. They fired all asst coaches. They fired mark Ross! They fired the GM! Everyone got wacked!
But DG had some ties to the org so that means what exactly? What does that mean?
Changing the HC changes a lot more than you want to believe. The giants went from awesome to chicken fried shit seemingly overnight when parcells was replaced by Handley. They went from a stale roster and team to an up n coming and energetic team when fassel replaced reeves.
Plus, we don’t even know what else is in the works but we don’t have a legit HC right now. Nothing will work until a legit HC is added to the mix.
I agree we don't have a legit head coach. We don't have a legit GM either. You know why? Because the process that was employed to hire them both wasn't legit, and that process is the result of an organizational structure that isn't legit.
I know it's hard to hear. I know you want to think the Giants are just a head coach away from competing.
I don't know what to tell you.
Quote:
In comment 14702797 GiantEgo said:
Quote:
In comment 14702792 Go Terps said:
Quote:
They'll continue to lose.
You really should checkout until the Mara's die off or sell the team.
Well it seems fairly reasonable, doesn't it? The Giants have employed a certain organizational methodology that, in the current NFL, has resulted in a 10-34 record the last three seasons. If they don't change the methodology, why would the results improve?
What exactly is this methodology and how exactly does Rivera fit into this methodology?
Are there parallels between he and our last 2 coaches? I dont see one thing he has in common with either of them...
They are all people that Terps doesn't like, duh. They clearly didn't consult with him.
Quote:
In comment 14702819 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14702794 JonC said:
Quote:
The type of hire I'd kill to avoid.
Hahaha. I love JonC.
I agree-- and I think the Giants have been so bad for so long that a lot of posters are just desperate to get back to being mediocre (which is exactly what Rivera has been and would be).
Just because McAdoo and Shurmur were most-known as coordinators and ended up being failures here doesn't mean we should jump at hiring any available experienced HC who shakes free.
Outside of Jim Harbaugh hes one of the best choices available if you want PROVEN winning experience as a NFL HC.
No issue here unless we could have had Harbaugh but passed on him.
for all of the rivera is mediocre and fans are desperate for that...who is your pick? let me guess, you want to revolutinize the way we think and take a young guy. and if that fails? then what? we KNOW what we get from rivera. its like taking a steady paycheck vs trying to launch a new business. if it fails, your family doesnt eat. give me the safe route EVERY time when you have a young QB that needs molding and a defense that is young and in need of a revamping. people here always want the sexy, spicy hire. the fact is, i just want a fucking coach who has his head on and knows how to manage a locker room and football team. that guy is rivera. MANY teams will be after him. are they all "backwards" or "poor" thinking too?
I don't think "taking a steady paycheck" is a very good metaphor to use for football or any sport. I personally don't care to watch Rivera go .500 every season, make the playoffs once every 3-4 years and lose in the first round, just because we "know what we're getting" and that's better than the awful losing records we've seen the last 3 (and really the last 8) years. I don't want a steady paycheck. I want a damn super bowl. That often means you have to take some risks. At least one of if not more of the young guys out there that are available is one of the next great coaches in this league, and I'm willing to take a shot on someone new that is not handpicked by DG nor Mara nor anyone who's known either of those guys personally for the last 20 years. We need to start thinking forward and thinking about what the league is like today and where it is going. We can include some old-school Giant philosophy in our choice(s) but I don't like the idea of just getting a bunch of old guys who have never won a super bowl but did make a few playoff appearances here and there just because we want to "know exactly what we're getting".