A lot of talk about analytics and Rivera makes it known he is not an analytics guy. Article does show Rivera in a very positive light. He’s definitely an old school, throwback coach.
The article also references all of the bad HC hires new owners have made recently.
| For my first story for The Ringer in 2016, I wrote about friction between coaches, front offices, and the league office caused by the spread of analytics and technology. It included a bit on the debate among coaches about how much and what kinds of technology they wanted to implement in the game. In the reporting process, I’d heard that Rivera had given an impassioned plea at a league meeting against technology—specifically increased video technology on the sideline during games. I asked him whether he wanted to comment on what I’d heard—he got on the phone within about an hour and not only confirmed what he said but repeated it verbatim to me for use in the article. Rivera told me he thought it was unfair to have live video and other technological mechanisms on the sideline because it would minimize the value of the work coaches put in. He told me: “Where does it end? Can you get text messages or go out there with an iPhone and figure out where to go? What are we creating? I know there are millennial players, but this is still a game created 100 years ago. … I want to get beat on the field. I don’t want to get beat because someone used a tool or technology.” |
| Who the Panthers will hire is less obvious than who will go after Rivera, which is basically every team in need of a coach who can’t get an offensive star like Oklahoma’s Lincoln Riley. Last month, when Tottenham Hotspur sacked its talented manager, Mauricio Pochettino, I tweeted that if the guy you just fired instantly becomes the best available option for your competitors, you probably should have kept him. What’s happening with Rivera is something slightly different: Rivera is the best option for a lot of teams, but not the Panthers. There is still a place for Ron Rivera in the modern NFL—and there will probably be a lot of room for David Tepper in the modern NFL, too. |
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You're not going to like the part where he's against using technology to aid decision making then.
One doesn't want to get beaten by a tool, the other is in tool acquisition mode. Which one has more rings?
In other words, Rivera just wasn't going to be on board.
So the more we unearth here about Rivera, the more it's clear that Rivera is indeed a "good fit" to the Jints Central and the "Giants Way".
And for all the wrong reasons...
knowing the nfl rule book inside and out isn't analytics.
analytics is about interpreting meaningful patterns in data.
that data could be "hey these guys are in a 3 TE set in the pistol formation" and the pattern would be what those teams do when in that formation.
its just good coaching and preparing for your opponent. it's not deflating balls on a wet day lol or recording organized team practices...
Good Coaching and Good Scouting.
One can infer his objection to tech would be to the detriment of collecting data, and therefore the use of data.
He's a weird dude in this arena. This is the same guy who said he started going for it on 4th a lot in part due to the ESPN 4th down machine.
One can infer his objection to tech would be to the detriment of collecting data, and therefore the use of data.
He's a weird dude in this arena. This is the same guy who said he started going for it on 4th a lot in part due to the ESPN 4th down machine.
What even is "on-field technology" exactly? Like, sky-cam? lol
It's about finding every last bit of unused edge to improve your teams' chances of winning a football game.
When John Harbaugh takes a safety at the end of the game as time expires to ensure that his team wins and prevents any freak turnovers, this is a part of analytics.
A crack team that analyzes every game situation and reports to the coach. Some coaches know this rule. Some coaches will knowingly discard analytics.
To me, that's fine-- as long as the coach has the tools in front of him to know that there is an edge to be had-- this is analytics.
Its the same as when the Patriots draft a kicker/punter in round 4. Because analytics tells us that players past round 3, 95% of the time never become starters. and the 5% that do-- are 95% of the time below replacement level. To get the best value of out round 4 seems to be to draft the best role players possible-- punters, kickers, holders. That's analytics
Its so much more than just "technology" or 3rd and 1 plays that have the greatest success. Its about rules, drafts, and all of the edge cases you can think of.
scouring the rule book to figure out shit that's legal and how to exploit it. Its more than just "coach has an idea"
its a crack team of geeks and nerds that go into the rulebook to find/approve/deny every edge.
It's no different than telling them to chart every 2 minute drive in the last 5 years when a team had
3 tos
2tos
1tos
and figuring out how to most efficiently use each time out.
knowing the nfl rule book inside and out isn't analytics.
analytics is about interpreting meaningful patterns in data.
that data could be "hey these guys are in a 3 TE set in the pistol formation" and the pattern would be what those teams do when in that formation.
its just good coaching and preparing for your opponent. it's not deflating balls on a wet day lol or recording organized team practices...
Good Coaching and Good Scouting.
Right - that guy 'lol'd' his way to having more rings than fit on one hand. Meanwhile, your 'good coaching' just got fired after losing to the Redskins.
The shit you're describing was being done by Gil Brandt and a mainframe 50 years ago. Wake the fuck up Gettleman, it's 2020.
you're an idiot if you don't think all 32 teams use/reference analytics.
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Just to be fair, the article wasn't necessarily about analytics, it was about Rivera's objection to using on-field technology.
One can infer his objection to tech would be to the detriment of collecting data, and therefore the use of data.
He's a weird dude in this arena. This is the same guy who said he started going for it on 4th a lot in part due to the ESPN 4th down machine.
What even is "on-field technology" exactly? Like, sky-cam? lol
Helmets.
That's the key to finding the next coach.
you're an idiot if you don't think all 32 teams use/reference analytics.
You're an idiot if you think they all use analytics equally.
You can see in their decisions which ones are paying attention and which ones aren't just from the implied probabilities within the decisions each franchise makes, either in terms of in-game coaching and strategy, or in personnel, scouting, drafting.
Not all teams are using analytics the same way or gaining the most upside. And the unfortunate part is that for teams that are investing time, energy, resources and trust in analytics, they will most likely be encouraged to keep doing so as they gain more and more insights; meanwhile, teams that are taking a less committed approach may find that analytics aren't providing much benefit and are therefore implicitly encouraged to write off data and analytics as unimportant.
Like any other academic scenario, willingness to learn and accept information tends to be at the core of what amounts to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
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The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
I know you weren't posting this to be funny, but the timing of this made me laugh my ass off.
One doesn't want to get beaten by a tool, the other is in tool acquisition mode. Which one has more rings?
You must not have listened to the press conference yesterday. He SOUNDS and LOOKS like a coach! What more do you need?
Does Belichick LOOK and SOUND like a coach? No.
It couldn’t be more obvious.
However, where does it say that he wouldn't use it? I'm so sick of people getting married to their narratives here, when they complain of Jints Central of doing the same thing!
you're an idiot if you don't think all 32 teams use/reference analytics.
Am I surprised the larger point went over your head? Nope! Because it's the same point that escapes the Giants.
A good organization will seek every opportunity to gain an advantage. You think Belichick started this? Parcells used to have the doors to the stadium opened and closed during the game to his advantage because he believed the wind patterns changed. Walsh chose when to cover up the field during storms based on how that week's matchup favored his team.
The Giants are dinosaurs - shit, after getting their shit kicked in for the umpteenth time by the Eagles, when McAdoo was coming in, they were proud to announce upgrades in sports nutrition and in their weight training program. Changed that by that point had already been made in most other organizations.
They desperately need some new blood at the TOP to address this shortcoming, otherwise, we're in for a lot more seasons where competitive football is over before October starts.
Shurmur should fire up his fancy analytics calculator to figure out you can't run up the gut from shotgun formation with a shitty line and expect results.
the point is, whether you use analytics or not you need a competent coach in place to make it work.
also rivera isn't shitting on analytics he's stating he's against the onfield tech which would aid other teams in pulling data for analytics.
its ok though you guys think having a punter and a qb on the field for 4th down is analytics.
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The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
Quote:
The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
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Shurmur should fire up his fancy analytics calculator to figure out you can't run up the gut from shotgun formation with a shitty line and expect results.
the point is, whether you use analytics or not you need a competent coach in place to make it work.
also rivera isn't shitting on analytics he's stating he's against the onfield tech which would aid other teams in pulling data for analytics.
its ok though you guys think having a punter and a qb on the field for 4th down is analytics.
You miss more fucking points than the Giants offense.
Parcells wouldn't pass up an advantage. Neither does Belichick.
Rivera's obviously afraid of it here - he wants to stick with what he knows, rather than embrace the unavoidable change. Those sideline tools that he was wary of, other coaches were using to their advantage. Rather than try to figure out how to leverage them, he's complaining about them.
Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
But that spoils the "Giants way" argument so people don't talk about it.
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Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
Blows my mind people don't see this. The fact that Rivera is becoming available as PS is being shown the door is extremely serendipitous
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Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
You seem to follow the Panthers closely, was there any friction between what you've suggested previously was a burguoning analytics program and Rivera's stance on less technology in use.
But that spoils the "Giants way" argument so people don't talk about it.
You won't see a lot of people killing Shurmur for not using analytics - he has obviously tried it with his playcalling.
The vast majority are pointed directly at the Giants org, and have to do with talent assessment and acquisition.
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Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
You seem to follow the Panthers closely, was there any friction between what you've suggested previously was a burguoning analytics program and Rivera's stance on less technology in use?
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Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
This is wrong.. He is keeping Hurney as GM to focus on college drafting and hiring another COO to run cap and Pro Personnel.
He wants to build a team organizationally first to become consistent winners - He didn't like losing the last few games the way they did and felt if he is going to change he would start with coach. All staff including Norv is going to be replaced by a more Analytical based type staff.
Rivera was put in a bad spot with Cam getting injured and not being able to play at high level the last few years. Allen did his best and I personally was impressed with how the team played.
Like Tom Coughlin laying on his couch with his stopwatch.
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is based more on Tepper wanting to have his stamp on the team:
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Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
You seem to follow the Panthers closely, was there any friction between what you've suggested previously was a burguoning analytics program and Rivera's stance on less technology in use?
When your franchise one read mobile QB is injured and no longer mobile, that's a hole no coach can dig himself out of.
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Antiquated thinking, which is why Tepper fired him.
People can spin it any way they want, but Rivera is out and Hurney will be gone at the end of the season, and Tepper will likely bring in a hot coordinator and a young GM.
This movew has been coming for months now. Tepper wants to change the culture of the team and thinks he knows how to succeed in the NFL. I think we'l see how difficult that is to do.
I saw that ringing endorsement Tepper gave Hurney. Talk about straining to say something nice.
Hurney might be okay because Tepper kept harping on an assistant GM role. So I could read it two ways:
1. Tepper wants a new GM and a new Assistant GM role.
2. He likes aspects of Hurney's skills and will dole out other responsibilities to the new AGM.
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In comment 14703577 UberAlias said:
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The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
You do realize NYG has analytics group too, right? Is Shurmur a big analytics guy? I’m going by what BB has said himself. He’s been asked these questions directly and stated he goes by what he thinks, not numbers. But think what you want — maybe he’s lying.
An analytics GROUP? As in comparable to what Kraft built in KAGr? No, they don't. And they certainly don't have a standalone analytics COMPANY that other organizations rely upon.
It's not remotely the same. Have fun convincing yourself that it is. While the Giants have a few analysts who report into Kevin Abrams, KAGr is among the industry leaders in sports/entertainment data analysis. I work in the industry - I'm sharing this as something that I'm actually familiar with, not as just a random guess on BBI.
And Belichick is 100% lying through his fucking teeth that he's not a big analytics guy. It couldn't be more obvious that he relies heavily on probabilities and weighted variables in his in-game decisions. How much of that is his own number crunching vs. what has been provided to him vs. what Ernie Adams comes up with is a matter of debate, but he's absolutely using the output of data analysis pretty decisively.
As for Shurmur, he may look at a few spreadsheets, but his coaching decisions make it equally clear that he's NOT using very insightful data analysis.
If you want to convince yourself that the Giants are keeping up with the innovative programs in the industry, feel free. Whatever helps you sleep at night in your Giants jammies. But I can promise you that they're not even close to approaching the bleeding edge.
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In comment 14703577 UberAlias said:
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The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
Next time do some research before making a dumbass reply. “Less than zero” stock, not his thing. That’s his own words. Link - ( New Window )
Right, I'm the one who needs to do research.
If you think that KAGr doesn't exist entirely as the growth of what began as an internal data analysis initiative in Patriots HQ, you're kidding yourself.
But Belichick is always honest and forthright with the media, right?
Fucking clueless.
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In comment 14703592 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14703577 UberAlias said:
Quote:
The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
You do realize NYG has analytics group too, right? Is Shurmur a big analytics guy? I’m going by what BB has said himself. He’s been asked these questions directly and stated he goes by what he thinks, not numbers. But think what you want — maybe he’s lying.
An analytics GROUP? As in comparable to what Kraft built in KAGr? No, they don't. And they certainly don't have a standalone analytics COMPANY that other organizations rely upon.
It's not remotely the same. Have fun convincing yourself that it is. While the Giants have a few analysts who report into Kevin Abrams, KAGr is among the industry leaders in sports/entertainment data analysis. I work in the industry - I'm sharing this as something that I'm actually familiar with, not as just a random guess on BBI.
And Belichick is 100% lying through his fucking teeth that he's not a big analytics guy. It couldn't be more obvious that he relies heavily on probabilities and weighted variables in his in-game decisions. How much of that is his own number crunching vs. what has been provided to him vs. what Ernie Adams comes up with is a matter of debate, but he's absolutely using the output of data analysis pretty decisively.
As for Shurmur, he may look at a few spreadsheets, but his coaching decisions make it equally clear that he's NOT using very insightful data analysis.
If you want to convince yourself that the Giants are keeping up with the innovative programs in the industry, feel free. Whatever helps you sleep at night in your Giants jammies. But I can promise you that they're not even close to approaching the bleeding edge.
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In comment 14703592 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14703577 UberAlias said:
Quote:
The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
Next time do some research before making a dumbass reply. “Less than zero” stock, not his thing. That’s his own words. Link - ( New Window )
Right, I'm the one who needs to do research.
If you think that KAGr doesn't exist entirely as the growth of what began as an internal data analysis initiative in Patriots HQ, you're kidding yourself.
But Belichick is always honest and forthright with the media, right?
Fucking clueless.
The Panthers have been forward-thinking in integrating analytic information with coaching and scouting, despite being an organization that has two guys with old-school résumés running the show: head coach Ron Rivera (who has bought into fourth-down theory) and GM Dave Gettleman (who dispatches two employees to the Sloan Conference every year). The team has worked to develop its own system in-house with a staff that includes two full-time analysts, three full-time developers and three others with analytics prominent among their duties.
Tepper also hired a Director of Analytics this season.
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In comment 14703592 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14703577 UberAlias said:
Quote:
The analytics guys have a lot of catching up to reach his success.
Sure he's not.
And Kraft Analytics Group is just studying cheese from their offices in Foxboro.
You do realize NYG has analytics group too, right? Is Shurmur a big analytics guy? I’m going by what BB has said himself. He’s been asked these questions directly and stated he goes by what he thinks, not numbers. But think what you want — maybe he’s lying.
An analytics GROUP? As in comparable to what Kraft built in KAGr? No, they don't. And they certainly don't have a standalone analytics COMPANY that other organizations rely upon.
It's not remotely the same.