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If Shurmur is the HC in 2020, why should I be optimistic?

Anakim : 12/5/2019 8:54 am
Every year when we miss the playoffs two things console and help me sleep at night: 1) a higher draft pick and a chance for some difference-makers in the draft and in free agency; and 2) the fervent hope that next year will be better. 'There's always next year.' 'Next year will be our year.'

98% of us seem to be in favor of Shurmur and coaching getting the axe, so this is for the minority of you who want Shurmur back. My question is...why? Why do you think he needs/deserves another year? Why do you think he will be any better next year? I can't think of one justifiable reason to bring him back (unless you're ownership and want to save money).

I can anticipate some of the answers:

Our younger players, especially DJ, will be more experienced
Shurmur is a QB whiz.
Saquon will be 100% healthy
We'll have a ton of cap space to improve the team, particularly the O-Line
We'll have a true difference-maker in Chase Young (please God)


But let's talk about Shurmur based on the merits. He has a lifetime record of 17-44. He's one of the losingest head coaches in NFL HISTORY. The highest number of wins he's ever had in a season as a head coach has been 5. Say what you will about Ron Rivera, Jason Garrett, Mike McCarthy..., but they've never had LESS than a 6 win season (with the exception of Jason Garrett's 4-12 team a few years ago. I'm also not counting shortened seasons.). 'Oh, but they had better teams. They weren't coaching the hapless Browns and the dysfunctional Giants.' Bullshit. Head coaches are supposed to bring the best out of their teams. Mike Tomlin is winning with Duck fucking Hodges. You really think that's a legit. excuse?


And given all the aforementioned "answers," how does that have anything to do with Shurmur? Why should we believe that any anticipated positives involving this team will lead to Shurmur leading this team to being respectable again? Will DJ having more experience mean that Shurmur's clock management skills will be better? Will Saquon being healthy mean that Shurmur won't waste precious timeouts? Will an improved O-Line mean that he won't waste challenges? Will Chase Young mean that Shurmur will stop calling asinine calls on offense and stop costing us games?


Shurmur isn't a bad guy by any means. I simply think he's a great OC but an absolutely awful head coach. He wouldn't be the only one. Look at Norv Turner. It happens.


It's time to go in a different direction. Let Shurmur coach the final few games of the season and then fire him and his crew on Black Monday. I have my own thoughts on Gettleman, but figured this thread should only be about Shurmur.
..  
BeckShepEli : 12/5/2019 9:00 am : link
You canít be optimistic bringing him back. He stinks and will never bring us a winning season.

On a side note which idiots on this board actually want him back next year and please tell me how thatís possible?
You shouldn't be.  
Silver Spoon : 12/5/2019 9:02 am : link
The end.
I agree with you. This staff has to go.  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2019 9:03 am : link
I find it very difficult to believe that all of these high draft picks that seemed to be a nice core all forgot how to play or are busts. Nobody is getting better, some (Barkley, Hernandez for example) are regressing. That's coaching. Or lack thereof.
Among NFL coaches who have coached at least 50 games  
sjnyfan : 12/5/2019 9:04 am : link
Shurmur has the 7th worst winning percentage in NFL history. 2nd worst among coaches who have coached at least 60 games and there's four games left to the season to get worse.

There is no reason to be optimistic if he is still here next season.
RE: I agree with you. This staff has to go.  
Silver Spoon : 12/5/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14703702 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
I find it very difficult to believe that all of these high draft picks that seemed to be a nice core all forgot how to play or are busts. Nobody is getting better, some (Barkley, Hernandez for example) are regressing. That's coaching. Or lack thereof.


Let's not forget Hill. I can't even recall his first name at the moment. I couldn't tell you if he's played this year, since you never hear his name.
My evaluation of Shurmur is fairly similar...  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 12/5/2019 9:06 am : link
I do not look, under Jones, at the wins and losses record. Obviously, I would like to see us be better but what I am looking for, and have not seen, is progress.

I see no progress in the offense and the issues that have dogged us for years...the offensive line. It is still horrible. We have a terrible center and our tackles are bad. I see zero progress on defense...it remains terrible.

Yes, some of that is on the fact we have young players but a lot of has to be on coaching. Football is the only sport I know where coaching can have a significant impact. I see none of that with the Giants.

Shurmur may be a good offensive coordinator but he has shown absolutely no growth as a head coach. that is how I am evaluating...are we getting better, are certain players that we are going to be counting on getting better? And I would have to say no...

But I go back to what is really wrong here...this organization needs an enema, top to bottom. The deadwood has to be cleaned out and the Mara-Tisch ownership has to give its head a serious shake. This is not on Shurmur or Gettleman or anyone else. It is on John Mara and Steve Tisch.
If this was Shurmur's first gig  
Chris684 : 12/5/2019 9:07 am : link
I think another year would be reasonable.

Since it's not, and his overall record sucks, he won't.

Shurmur's big moment this year was the Arizona game and he failed miserably.
More importantly  
David B. : 12/5/2019 9:08 am : link
Why should I buy tickets or bother going to games?

Hopefully, that's the question being asked in the building.

Things don't change till there are empty seats.
I was originally optimistic about PS based on his rep as a QB guru ...  
Spider56 : 12/5/2019 9:08 am : link
But after 2 years of terrible football, I am convinced this team goes nowhere with him as head coach. He has shown no growth or learning from his Cleveland experience and I have zero confidence in his abilities. He simply must go ... If he comes back next year, it will be another disaster.
Because we'd have a top 5 pick in the 2021 draft?  
Bramton1 : 12/5/2019 9:08 am : link
.
You should be optimistic  
beatrixkiddo : 12/5/2019 9:12 am : link
Because we would be league favorites to land Trevor Lawrence in 2020 followed by hopefully a full house cleaning from the FO down.
RE: I was originally optimistic about PS based on his rep as a QB guru ...  
TyreeHelmet : 12/5/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14703710 Spider56 said:
Quote:
But after 2 years of terrible football, I am convinced this team goes nowhere with him as head coach. He has shown no growth or learning from his Cleveland experience and I have zero confidence in his abilities. He simply must go ... If he comes back next year, it will be another disaster.


"QB Guru"... Guy had one good year from Keenum on a loaded team. Really has nothing else impressive on his resume.

To answer your question- you shouldn't be. He's an awful head coach.
No one  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 9:19 am : link
Wants him back outside of his family and friends
If Shurmer  
TommyWiseau : 12/5/2019 9:20 am : link
is back as HC, I will not watch a game
RE: If this was Shurmur's first gig  
rocco8112 : 12/5/2019 9:20 am : link
In comment 14703708 Chris684 said:
Quote:
I think another year would be reasonable.

Since it's not, and his overall record sucks, he won't.

Shurmur's big moment this year was the Arizona game and he failed miserably.


Agree, when Arizona came into Giants stadium with their new coach and QB, and kicked the Giants' ass, it proved to me what I already thought, Shurmur is not a good HC. They even had more days to rest and prepare for the Cardinals and got their asses handed to them.

Coming out of the bye and losing to the Bears was horrible too.

The team also is not improving in any demonstrable way. Other shit teams in the league this year seem to improving, not the Giants. If anything the team is getting worse.

There is zero reason for optimism if Shurmur is brought back.

Anak  
figgy2989 : 12/5/2019 9:21 am : link
You trying to get Shurmur to write you a letter of recommendation to be the GM once DG gets canned or something?
OK, I'll try the devils advocate (not so easy, BTW)  
V.I.G. : 12/5/2019 9:26 am : link
Staff
-Hold PS accountable for Bettcher or do you just fire the DC
-Hal Hunter - gone one way or the other

Talent
-Highest number of 1-2yr starters in the league
-Starting vets are the worst players on the field
-League Highest % of deadcap/IR/benched players of Cap

Expectations
-Most viewed this team as 5-7 win team at best
-now with a Rookie QB
-Yet for the most part we have been in these games in the 4q

Market Value of the Head Coach of the NYG
-I think most HC candidates see the above
-Holding on to Fassel as long as we did, made us a top choice
-Firing a 2nd HC in 4 years, devalues the franchise, ownership
You shouldn't be.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/5/2019 9:27 am : link
& I probably won't watch much Giants football if he is.
If Shurmur is HC 2020, I'm optimistic I will have a nice family sunday  
penkap75 : 12/5/2019 9:41 am : link
Past few weeks, I prioritized spending time with my family instead of being angry over shitty football. Its much better that way.
Ironically, Shurmur benefitted from the "nobody can win in Cleveland"  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2019 9:44 am : link
narrative. He skated off without blame because of their dysfunction and was able to rehabilitate his rep with Philly and the Vikes. He won't be so lucky this time.
Um.... He won't be. Don't worry about it.  
Blue21 : 12/5/2019 9:44 am : link
.
You are what your record says you are  
morrison40 : 12/5/2019 9:44 am : link
Heís a LOSER...case closed!
Giants fans should not be optimistic about ANYTHING  
Overseer : 12/5/2019 9:52 am : link
until one thing, and only one thing occurs:

An respectable number under "W". That's it.

Don't care about supposed better drafting.

Don't care about supposed potential in young guys, including Jones or Barkley or Chase Young.

Don't care about supposed better scheming by this or that coordinator brought in.

Don't care about employing 'analytics' or whatever the fuck.

Win some God Damn football games. Beat the Eagles for once. The NFC East is not even close to a powerhouse division these days and the NYG can't even sniff contention. It's aggressively pathetic.

Win some games. Nothing else matters until that happens.
A* respectable number under ''W''  
Overseer : 12/5/2019 9:53 am : link
.
The dude is already gone  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 9:54 am : link
Dead man walking
Go back to 1996  
Matt in SGS : 12/5/2019 9:57 am : link
and ask any Giants fan if they were optimistic when Dan Reeves came back. It would be the same deal, a lame duck coach. Reeves at least had won before.

Shurmur back in 2020 is delaying the inevitable and eating into another year on Saquon and Jones' rookie deals to go nowhere.
Don't know how  
blueblood'11 : 12/5/2019 10:11 am : link
you bring this guy back and expect the fan base to be at all happy and excepting. Shurmur had his offensive line upgraded and his offense got worse. The defense is a joke. The whole thing is a joke. They can't bring this guy back. Well, I guess they could but why. It's gone backwards not forward.
If this team doesn't make changes somewhere ...  
FStubbs : 12/5/2019 10:25 am : link
... it's almost a lock that they'll go 0-16 in 2020. Even if they draft Chase Young. You can book it.
The only way I could see him coming back  
Rudy5757 : 12/5/2019 10:30 am : link
is if they take the play calling away from him 1st and foremost so he can be the head coach. I was in the keep Shurmur bucket for a few reasons

1. The team continues to play hard
2. We are playing a lot of young players
3. Rookie QB, expected to lose a lot while the kid learns
4. Injuries at key positions on O (WR & RB) and never have we had our starting team on the field all season
5. attractiveness of the job, if we let him go what good head coach is going to want to come here? We will have had 3 coaches in 5 years. Not a good look for job security.


I have changed my mind over the last few weeks where I watch SB continually pound it up the middle. I just dont get it. At the beginning of the season SB was under used, now we are just beating the guy up, Get him out in space. EE lining up to block is just stupid and pointless. Every now and then its OK but he is costing us in key situations. This has continued all season. Our 2 best players and he cant create the O around them. He's supposed to be an offensive Guru but he is a guy that has an offense but he needs certain types of players to run it, he can't create the O around the talent. For that reason he needs to go.
How can you say he's a great OC?  
fkap : 12/5/2019 10:31 am : link
this is his offense. I see Shula as being secondary in the design, game planning, etc. He's there to carry out the orders of PS.

I understand that the NFL is a game of inches, and the distraction of being HC has an effect on his ability to conduct the offense, but... few aspects of this offense are 'almost getting it done'. We bitch weekly about various defects - OL blocking scheme, WR scheme, using Barkley poorly, etc.

I would not be optimistic if we were to bring in a new HC and making PS the OC (ignoring the whole mental/emotional issues which would make this an untenable situation).

So you say 98% of us want Shurmur gone  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 12/5/2019 10:36 am : link
So why do you care about the 2%?

The young guys need experience especially the secondary.  
Chip : 12/5/2019 10:37 am : link
The team has played hard for the most part. Scrap the 3-4 and go to a 4 man front.

Remember Troy Aikman went 1-15 his rookie season and it got better for him.

The defense has to get better or we will be back here again and with experience they will get better.
RE: If Shurmer  
Touchdown maker : 12/5/2019 10:39 am : link
In comment 14703721 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
is back as HC, I will not watch a game


Yes you will, including preseason.
5 weeks ago I was still on board....  
NorthCountryGiantsFan : 12/5/2019 10:57 am : link
now, that ship has sailed. I credited him for keeping the team together, and fighting, despite their shortfalls. It has become very, very clear that he is just not a HC. Yes his guys appear to like him, they behave in the media, yada, yada, yada....there are no results, and in fact, the team has regressed despite appearing to have more talent on paper than the last few years. I'm on the fence as to whether we should go the new, flashy, analytics route, or just a flat out HC route, but i'm leaning towards a Ron Rivera type. Just give me a HC who runs the team as a HC and surrounds himself with good Coordinators. Does a guy like PS even show up in the defense room? What stamp does he put on them to show he's involved?
I doubt he will be.back but  
George from PA : 12/5/2019 11:16 am : link
At the minimum....the OL coach, the DC must go....

Add 2 more highly rated draft picks, add a couple of FAs....with cap room.

Maybe with a more leveled talent being fielded....might lead to better results
'If Shurmur is the HC in 2020, why should I be optimistic?'  
Torrag : 12/5/2019 11:20 am : link
You shouldn't. It would be based on an organizational philosophy that 'stability' is necessary for success instead of being based on results.

He'd be a disaster again and be fired before Week 8.
he won't be  
bc4life : 12/5/2019 11:24 am : link
but, if he was - I'd look to the clear improvement of the offense over the second half of last season.

I'd look for some major changes - relinqished play calling. new OLine coach, major upgrade on OL and LBs

But, I suspect that even if management thinks he can get things turned around - if they take a chance a things tank again - it would be unforgivable in the eyes of fans

Two years and probably the biggest issue regardless of talent is the level of confusion. youth explains some of it, not all of it
Because Eli will carry the team on his shoulders  
micky : 12/5/2019 11:27 am : link
No worries
Two reasons to keep Shurmur  
Reale01 : 12/5/2019 11:32 am : link
One
If the Giants believe that better head coaching candidates will be available after the 2020 season, then they should keep Shurmur.

Examples: BB, Peyton, Harbaugh, or whoever your choice might be.

It would suck to hire a coach like Saleh (sp?) for 2020 and then watch BB take a job someplace else in 2021.

Two
Keep Shurmer if you want to see the Giants on Hard Knocks. We are a virtual lock if Shurmur stays. They won't do it with a first year coach.
In 2020, this years young db's will have a year of experience.  
Ira : 12/5/2019 11:32 am : link
Also we will be able to do much better in free agency with some financial flexibility. I'm not advocating keeping Shurmur - just trying to answer your question.
RE: Anak  
Anakim : 12/5/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14703723 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
You trying to get Shurmur to write you a letter of recommendation to be the GM once DG gets canned or something?


Haha, I donít think this thread will do me any favors
I heard the n a podcast on YouTube  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 12/5/2019 1:26 pm : link
Today that 87% of the fans they polled want him gone!

If heís back next year I will still be watching NFL Football, but 3 hours will NOT be dedicated to the Giants.

Of course I will still follow but Iím not about to waste 3 hours on watching a Shurmur coached team.
RE: Among NFL coaches who have coached at least 50 games  
HomerJones45 : 12/5/2019 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14703704 sjnyfan said:
Quote:
Shurmur has the 7th worst winning percentage in NFL history. 2nd worst among coaches who have coached at least 60 games and there's four games left to the season to get worse.

There is no reason to be optimistic if he is still here next season.
Jesus, only 7th worst? Who are the others??
RE: I heard the n a podcast on YouTube  
Thegratefulhead : 12/5/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14704152 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
Today that 87% of the fans they polled want him gone!

If heís back next year I will still be watching NFL Football, but 3 hours will NOT be dedicated to the Giants.

Of course I will still follow but Iím not about to waste 3 hours on watching a Shurmur coached team.
I am there. Going to follow the Seahawks and Ravens the rest of the way. I like the way they play. I will not even turn on the Giants game. I want the ratings to tank. Only thing that will change this shit is if we stop watching and going to games.
Letís be totally honest ... If Shurmur returns,  
Spider56 : 12/5/2019 1:53 pm : link
Most all of us will do exactly what we did this year ... be overly optimistic in the spring, passionately dopey in the summer, and heartbrokenly sad when weíre out of it by mid October. If the Giants keep PS weíre doomed for at least another season.
RE: RE: Among NFL coaches who have coached at least 50 games  
Anakim : 12/5/2019 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14704158 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14703704 sjnyfan said:


Quote:


Shurmur has the 7th worst winning percentage in NFL history. 2nd worst among coaches who have coached at least 60 games and there's four games left to the season to get worse.

There is no reason to be optimistic if he is still here next season.

Jesus, only 7th worst? Who are the others??


Like Hue Jackson, Gus Bradley, David Shula...
It is amazing he has had as much of a chance has he has  
moespree : 12/5/2019 2:07 pm : link
When this season ends he will be at 65 career games coached. That puts him ahead of people like Barry Switzer and Jim Harbaugh. He'll actually be in the top 30% all time for most games as a head coach in the NFL history.

Staggering actually when you consider his win % as compared to the other 30%. There's seriously zero reason at all he should get another chance as a head coach ever again.

And you're right, there's no reason to be optimistic at all about 2020 if he is brought back because he is a truly horrible coach of historic proportions.
This is only his 2nd year of  
Thinblueline : 12/5/2019 3:03 pm : link
A rebuild!! Rookie QB, one of the youngest teams in the league... People have no fucking patience! Next year we should start to see the results of what he is trying to do! RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!
If Shurmur is brought back  
MtDizzle : 12/5/2019 3:27 pm : link
Iím finding something better to do with my Sundayís.
Shurmur.....  
thrunthrublue : 12/6/2019 6:03 am : link
Is a three legged horse you enter in the Kentucky derby......based on its record your expectations of winning are tempered. D.g. P.s. need to be gone before the next draft, or look forward to another 2 and 14 in 2020.
More chances for you to  
section125 : 12/6/2019 7:39 am : link
peruse other teams cuts so you can post more "kick the tires" threads...
Shurmur canít even answer that question  
Rflairr : 12/6/2019 8:00 am : link
Being asked that is why he no longer comes on WFAN
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