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Let's talk about that David Tepper quote

Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 11:17 am
Quote:
"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.


It's a good quote, and to be honest, an intriguing approach. It seems to be all the rage right now and I do applaud David Tepper for having the conviction to make the unprecedented move of firing a coach like Rivera mid season to start the process right now, and not dragging his feet.

However, I have a combination of issues and questions about it, that I thought instead of spreading the conversation out over several threads, we could make a discussion that is a catch all.

I'll start with my questions regarding the quote.

1. Tepper wants an approach where old school toughness meets modern processes.

What does that look like? We have seen a couple of teams seemingly move towards this and have success in recent years, namely the Eagles and their last run, but do we have any proven example of sustained success using this model? The Eagles seem to be regressing to the mean right now. What does sustained success look like with this model, and how do we know that this perfect mixture is responsible for any given team's success? How do we know it wasn't just the stars aligning? For instance, the metrics helped the Eagles find Carson Wentz, but it was Nick Foles who won the Superbowl. Just one instance, but it makes me wonder.

2. It seems to me that the perennial playoff teams, the ones that seem to be in the playoffs year in, and year out, are the same perennial playoff teams that were doing it before the analytics craze. On that note, there was a thread yesterday where Sean asked a great question about the Steelers success, and why their seemingly traditional model of a family oriented business running the team is experiencing more success without having to change the model but so much. Terps posted a really interesting reply to it, I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here.

Quote:
They've only had 3 head coaches since 1969, and each of those three coaches has won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive. They've also had the same GM (Kevin Colbert) since 2000.

So we know they value continuity...but how did they arrive at these particular hires? Continuity for continuity's sake isn't necessarily a positive...does anyone think Shurmur would become a perennial divisional contender given 10 years on the job?

So let's take a quick look at their three key leadership figures these past 20 years.

GM Kevin Colbert

- 1984: BLESTO Scout
- '85-'89: Dolphins Scout
- '90-'00: Detroit Lions Pro Scouting Director
- '00-'19 (hired age 43): Pittsburgh Steelers Director of Football Operations, named the franchise's first ever GM in '10

HC Bill Cowher

- '85-'86: Cleveland Browns Special Teams Coach
- 87-88: Browns' Defensive Backs Coach
- 89-91: KC Defensive Coordinator
- 92-06 (hired age 35): Steelers head coach

HC Mike Tomlin

- 95: VMI WR coach
- 96: Memphis grad assistant
- 97: Arkansas State WR coach
- 98: Ark. State DB coach
- 99-00: Cincinnati U DB coach
- 01-05: Tampa Bay DB coach
- 06: Vikings DC
- 07-Present (hired age 35): Steelers head coach

So they hire young guys who haven't held a job at that level in the past, and once they have them they hold onto them.

To be a fly on the wall in their interview process...


Now I'm not saying that there is no analytical, advanced metrics at play here... I've got to believe most teams use these tools in some form or another, but how much? And why do the Steelers manage to run a family business and still pump out a perinnial contender each year? Why don't they need a consulting firm to hire a coach?



Now, my issues with it:

Football, no matter how modern you make it, will always be a violent, emotional game played by human beings. The analytics may be able to tell you the probabilities of going for it on 4th down, or going for two, etc... But they will NEVER be able to tell you which Odell Beckham (for example) is going to show up every Sunday, or how a player reacts to injury, adversity, any physical/mental variable that can't be quantified.

Finally, Tepper is being praised sight unseen for his bold approach with firing Ron Rivera. I don't know for sure, but it has to be somewhat unprecedented to fire a coach who is 5-7 midseason, 2 games under .500 with 4 to play, and has been hamstrung by missing his starting QB all season. That really is a bold move. But what if Tepper is wrong? Tepper is a business man. Ron Rivera is a football lifer. What qualifies Tepper as a football mind? If Tepper wants to bring in these consultants, shouldn't he leave Ron Rivera in place until these said consultants can give him an evaluation too? What if Tepper is making a big mistake?

Anyways, thought this would make a good discussion. Look at me!
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I'm sincerely trying to find reasons...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 2:22 pm : link
to like and support a potential Rivera candidacy. But the more I pull back the covers, the less interesting he becomes...

I guess he has a cool nickname - Riverboat Ron. Oh, and per FMiC, he and Gettleman apparently worked well together...
Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:23 pm : link
7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.
RE: Britt  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?


As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017

RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:27 pm : link
In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.

You're right. When you go 7-8-1 AND win your division, it means you were below .500 despite playing in a shitty division. When you go 7-8-1 and miss the playoffs, you had to have faced at least one decent division rival.

Very good point, although probably not the one you intended.
RE: RE: Britt  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14704256 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?



As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017

Well, whenever we're ready to find a GM who can do better than that and not be an absolute liability in free agency, maybe we can pull out of the tailspin. Until then, all Mara has done is order new nameplates and business cards for the same stale Accorsi regime.
Just to expand on that  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:31 pm : link
2012 - Less than nothing out of that draft
2013 - Nothing.
2014 - Beckham, Richburg, Kennard. Should have kept Kennard. Could not pay Richburg based on his play.
2015 - 1 year of Landon Collins
2016 - Shepard, always hurt
2017 - Engram, always hurt

2018 - doesn't look spectacular, but it looks a hell of a lot better than previous years.

2019 - Too early to tell, but gotta figure a few good players come out of it, including a franchise QB
RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.


What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.

I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.

If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.

While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"

That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
RE: RE: Britt  
hitdog42 : 12/5/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14704256 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?



As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017


and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-
RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
christian : 12/5/2019 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.


Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.

It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
Some fans want to always jump back to  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 2:45 pm : link
A deterministic view.

Maybe beacause the draft is fun or for whatever personal reasons, people like determinism. Folks jump right from blame the higher ups to deterministic views on players without looking at how we got here.

But it's more and more obvious than ever that player outcomes ALSO depend on situation, scheme , training, coaching AS WELL as (aptitude and physicality and some innate predetermined characteristics.)

Right now it's OL , run game and maybe D backs.

How you choose unit and assistant coaches might be open to review.
RE: RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:49 pm : link
In comment 14704264 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.



What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.

I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.

If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.

While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"

That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.


I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.

I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.

Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
To quote the great John Boyd  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/5/2019 2:50 pm : link
People. Ideas. Technology. In that order.
The Patriots have the largest analytics department in the NFL  
AdamBrag : 12/5/2019 2:51 pm : link
And they've been pretty successful.

Trying to keep analytics out of football is like trying to keep computers out of the workplace. Sure, it's possible to operate without computers and there are nuances that humans will only catch, but if all your competitors are using computers, you are in trouble if you are not.
RE: RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14704272 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.



Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.

It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
yeah there is definitely a pattern of I’m taking my ball and going home when things don’t turn out as expected
RE: RE: RE: Britt  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14704267 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704256 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?



As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017




and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-


Name them.

The only players you could possibly be talking about are:

Eli Apple
Darian Thompson
Ereck Flowers
Landon Collins
Odell Beckham Jr
Weston Richburg
Devon Kennard
Justin Pugh

Which of those players are lighting it up with their new teams?
Coach red wins again  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 2:52 pm : link
With another great quote.

Bingo! I agree!
Giants in 07  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 2:54 pm : link
Gettleman's performance, not patience, is where we disagree. If we get competent people in here I'm perfectly willing to give them a couple years.

But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.

Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?
RE: RE: RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
rsjem1979 : 12/5/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14704282 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:

I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.

Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.


If Gettleman evaluated the team and determined that their talent level wouldn't allow them to compete, why did he make moves that (even optimistically) could only benefit the Giants in the short term?

Revisionist history about "rebuilding" aside, every move Gettleman made in the Spring and Summer of 2018 was made with the 2018 season in mind.

Gettleman either thought the Giants were a few moves away from being a contender, or lied about it to convince Mara to hire him. Either way, it's bad.
RE: RE: RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14704282 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704264 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.



What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.

I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.

If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.

While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"

That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.



I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.

I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.

Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.

When you sign a 27 year old FA to a multi-year K with a $5M AAV and almost 40% of the contract guaranteed, that's more than a stopgap measure. Omameh was a shitty signing. To rationalize it as an attempted stopgap is revisionist history, IMO. He was signed to be a part of the solution going forward and was an abject failure.
RE: RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14704272 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.



Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.

It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.


Sometimes you can feel where it's going. It started to be about 3-5 posters, the same posters I usually go around with, and it usually ends up the same spot. It's not that I'm uncomfortable, it's that I don't feel like going down the same road again.

I truly started this thread to explore the David Tepper quote, and while I want Ron Rivera as the next coach of the Giants, I did not care to discuss Ron Rivera in any capacity other than his role in why Tepper made the decision he did, and where he was going, and what the intrinsic risks are/were with the move. Also, to have a platform for everybody to discuss this marriage of old school toughness and new school metrics, minus the angst associated with being a Giants fan right now, and whether we should or shouldn't be moving that direction. Essentially, a tool for everybody to discuss the pros and cons of the philosophy independently of what you want for the Giants.

I disagree that this is intrinsically related to the Giants, and I was careful not to word it that way when I wrote the op.
RE: Giants in 07  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14704291 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman's performance, not patience, is where we disagree. If we get competent people in here I'm perfectly willing to give them a couple years.

But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.

Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?


Fair enough. There certainly is a lot to criticize.
Same for Gatorade Dunk's post as well. I see your point.
Let's illuminate coach reds great quote.  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 3:05 pm : link
1. People. The right people for a particular project have good ideas AND can listen to other good people in gaining those ...and can tell the difference.

So #1 covers #2, the ideas.

The technology must serve those ideas keeping in mind that idea #1 is to be humble enough to talk within the group and to keep learning.

Ownership by definition is in, BUT things can get dicey if they don't understand some of the concepts of the right people OR are unwilling or una l to listen, which is a Hallmark of the right people:

To have real conversations, not the old "oh, I'm sorry, what was that in the window? , " Wait...sorry, what....I just got a text".. "what was that you just said? ... " " What did he just say? "

Or "whatever, let's just do what we want"

Let's not.  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 3:07 pm : link
Dennny's posts are lame regardless of which handle he's using.
I don’t have the time to do it now..  
Sean : 12/5/2019 3:11 pm : link
But, I’d be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.

I’d bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh we’re hired prior to 10 years back.

Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.
It's a perfect quote, reds quote  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 3:13 pm : link
It's hard today to avoid conflating nominal success with real leadership.

Often little to do with each other , those qualities.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/5/2019 3:20 pm : link
Tepper's quote sounds great, but the execution is what matters. A theoretical 'new guy' always sounds better than what you have. Rivera has his pluses and minuses. I see why people like him.

The NFL is obviously a tremendously competitive environment. To me, the teams that have cracked the code in terms of developing consistently competitive franchises are the Ravens/Pats/Steelers. Maybe the Saints, Seahawks, and Chiefs as well (I'm a big Reid fan).

I'm interested in seeing how Tepper's plan develops.
RE: ....  
Sean : 12/5/2019 3:28 pm : link
In comment 14704318 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Tepper's quote sounds great, but the execution is what matters. A theoretical 'new guy' always sounds better than what you have. Rivera has his pluses and minuses. I see why people like him.

The NFL is obviously a tremendously competitive environment. To me, the teams that have cracked the code in terms of developing consistently competitive franchises are the Ravens/Pats/Steelers. Maybe the Saints, Seahawks, and Chiefs as well (I'm a big Reid fan).

I'm interested in seeing how Tepper's plan develops.


Well said.
The problem I have with the premise of the OP  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 4:14 pm : link
is that is seems like its this either/or scenario.

Either old school toughness OR use of advance technology and analytics.

Why can't it be both?

I don't think any advocate of technology and analytics in football is suggesting to do away with old school toughness.

I am separating Analytics an Technology for a reason. Analytics is not technology. Its an approach and a process. It is usually supported by technology. But there are many more uses of technology even beyond supporting analytics.

The Analytics approach is about ideas and testing those ideas. So you still need people with ideas. The technology gives you the ability to test a much broader range of ideas. It provides the opportunity to test if conventional wisdom produces the best results, or are there other methods that can consistently show better results. The technology allows you to crunch the data much faster and thus test more ideas. What you need are people who are out of the box thinkers. In the end, its all just an augmentation process to provide deeper insight and hopefully guide improved decision making.

Other uses of technology:

VR simulators can give players the opportunity to get more reps. The coaches and tech can program the simulations to teach the player the desired techniques and things to see in live action.

Video analysis of players in practice. Coaches can't see everything. Parameters can be coded into a system that validates if players are doing what they need to do to optimize performance.

Interactive playbooks for laptops or tablets that go beyond the simple diagram, they can show graphics how plays should unfold against various opposing scenarios.

And I haven't even gotten into technology for health issues. Detailed measurements of strength and burst (quick twitch) of specific muscles and joints. Using this to help players rehab, or even designing strength and conditioning programs, also player evaluation for FA and draft, etc.

We can go on forever. There are literally thousands of ways tech can help. And its not just computers, although the computers always help with the math and analysis. Again, you need out of the box thinkers to come up with all the ideas and ways the tach can help. Figure out the one that are truly impactful and push those things to the limits. Drop the ones that don't make as much of a difference. Its going to be an evolutionary process. So the longer you wait to get started, the farther behind the evolutionary ladder you are...

You can do all this and STILL maintain old school toughness in your coaches, but give them tools that make what they want to get more effective. I think a lot of this is more and more critical with the CBAs and the fact that proactive time is more and more limited.
To complete my post above  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 4:21 pm : link
If you want an old school smash mouth, snot knocking football team. Then design you analytics and technologies to maximize the returns for that approach.

If that's what you want, let the technology help you find those players and avoid the ones that are more finesse. Let your strength and conditioning build those players to meet the demands. Give the players the learning tools to execute that approach...

It's not an either/or proposition.
RE: I don’t have the time to do it now..  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14704309 Sean said:
Quote:
But, I’d be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.

I’d bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh we’re hired prior to 10 years back.

Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.


I think the goal should be to do better than Rivera and hit a HR. I know BB is not walking through the doors of Jints Central while he's still alive - that ship has sailed - but I think with the proper due diligence we could strike gold. Which is why Shurmur should by fired as soon as possible to begin the search. That is why Tepper's move to fire Rivera is smart because he can get right into that evaluation.

To be clear, I don't mind Rivera being in the mix. But he's shouldn't be in the high valued target zone. Too many question marks in his resume...

And, frankly, finding the right coach only solves part of the problem. The larger problem is in management/scouting.
McL  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 4:56 pm : link
Exactly. There was a good article about LSU strength and conditycoach adopting a new technology called Perch tracking how fast players were moving barbells and this has benefited their strength and injury prevention (velocity based training). They are kicking ass this season. Old school on the field; new technology behind the scenes
RE: McL  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14704418 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Exactly. There was a good article about LSU strength and conditycoach adopting a new technology called Perch tracking how fast players were moving barbells and this has benefited their strength and injury prevention (velocity based training). They are kicking ass this season. Old school on the field; new technology behind the scenes


That's more Joe Brady and his wizardry getting Burrow to look like Joe Montana... ;)
RE: RE: I don’t have the time to do it now..  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14704391 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14704309 Sean said:


Quote:


But, I’d be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.

I’d bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh we’re hired prior to 10 years back.

Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.



I think the goal should be to do better than Rivera and hit a HR. I know BB is not walking through the doors of Jints Central while he's still alive - that ship has sailed - but I think with the proper due diligence we could strike gold. Which is why Shurmur should by fired as soon as possible to begin the search. That is why Tepper's move to fire Rivera is smart because he can get right into that evaluation.

To be clear, I don't mind Rivera being in the mix. But he's shouldn't be in the high valued target zone. Too many question marks in his resume...

And, frankly, finding the right coach only solves part of the problem. The larger problem is in management/scouting.


I agree with above thoughts as well bw. Shurmur is a bit a trainwreck but way too much of BBI blame lately has been funneling to him...clearly needs to be spread around much more broadly
I got caught up too.  
Thegratefulhead : 12/5/2019 5:31 pm : link
DG did and said some things I liked.

Ignore all that shit.

10-34 does not work for me.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Results, that is all I really care about.

Fucking win or GTFO.

It sucks to suck.
bah auto-correct...  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 5:42 pm : link
proactive should have been practice in my post above...

the CBAs and the fact that practice time is more and more limited.
I keep coming back to the Giants history.  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/5/2019 5:59 pm : link
One championship squad I saw had numerous, game changing playmakers:

'86 team:
LT
BANKS
CARSON
BAVARO
SIMMS
MORRIS

2007 TEAM
MANNING
PLAX
STRAHAN
TUCK
WEBSTER
ROBBINS
SNEE

Who the fuck does this team have that can sniff the jocks of those guys?

Barkley, and that's it for now until some of the young defenders step up.

Peppers might ascend to that level, Williams and Lawrence also, maybe Hernandez becomes another Snee. Sheppard is very good when healthy, but his long term health is very much in question. Engram has shown only glimpses.

This team is a long way off in personnel and that's neither Gettleman's nor Shurmur's fault.
He  
uther99 : 12/5/2019 8:14 pm : link
Gonna fail for a while
I’ll say this about Rivera..  
Sean : 12/5/2019 8:26 pm : link
First, I think the best thing for the franchise right now would be to hire a young HC (someone like Matt Rhule) & then hire a GM who Rhule would work well with & have a shared vision for the team. Preferably, the GM would also be young & you give both plenty of time to see the plan through. This is how you hopefully get back to the Steelers structure of sustainability.

However, I know there is a good chance that won’t happen. Gettleman took on massive dead cap money this year & drafted Daniel Jones at #6 last April. Changing course 9 months later is unlikely.

I believe a huge part of our problem the last 6 years has been a lack of harmony between GM & HC. I don’t think Reese & Coughlin were on the same page. It never made sense to me that Shurmur was the guy after hearing Gettleman describe defensive minded head coaches. Gettleman doesn’t feel like a offensive specialist HC type GM. I don’t think it’s a good fit. I believe Gettleman wanted Patricia.

I do think Gettleman-Rivera would fit the best in terms of GM/HC philosophy, the best in a long term with this franchise. If Gettleman will be retained which I think is probably the case, I think pairing Rivera with him makes the most sense.

BW who doesn't have question marks on their resume and  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/5/2019 8:32 pm : link
what question marks do you think Rivera has?
Yeah that strategy works great until..  
morrison40 : 12/5/2019 9:17 pm : link
You get punched in the mouth !
RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 9:22 pm : link
In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:
Quote:
You get punched in the mouth !

I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?
This Tepper love  
uther99 : 12/5/2019 10:02 pm : link
is out of control. He makes some basic comments, many of which have been made on this site for years. Self scout, tough football, use analytics. Big fcking deal. Who is the QB? Not Cam and not Allen. So no QB, picking middle of the pack 2020. You all would buy piss if he called it lemonade
RE: BW who doesn't have question marks on their resume and  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 10:08 pm : link
In comment 14704562 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
what question marks do you think Rivera has?


Only having 3 out of 9 winning seasons in Carolina jumps out. While Rivera's strength is D, in those 9 seasons Carolina only finished inside the top third in the league in 3X in PPG allowed. And he certainly wasn't short on talent on that side of the ball.

As I said earlier, I think we can throw Rivera into the mix as a possible HC candidate. That's fine. But let's fire Shurmur now and begin a real deep dive to find THE best candidates. And not settle for someone who is slightly above average.
RE: I keep coming back to the Giants history.  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 10:11 pm : link
In comment 14704455 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
One championship squad I saw had numerous, game changing playmakers:

'86 team:
LT
BANKS
CARSON
BAVARO
SIMMS
MORRIS

2007 TEAM
MANNING
PLAX
STRAHAN
TUCK
WEBSTER
ROBBINS
SNEE

Who the fuck does this team have that can sniff the jocks of those guys?

Barkley, and that's it for now until some of the young defenders step up.

Peppers might ascend to that level, Williams and Lawrence also, maybe Hernandez becomes another Snee. Sheppard is very good when healthy, but his long term health is very much in question. Engram has shown only glimpses.

This team is a long way off in personnel and that's neither Gettleman's nor Shurmur's fault.
the 2007 team had rookies and free agents who made a big impact - Ross Bradshaw DeOssie Johnson Smith Boss Madison McQuarters Mitchell

Gettlemans free agents trades and drafts in that time frame have yielded pitiful results. In two years the team is at best the same talent wise as when he took over after 2017.
I've dealt with Appaloosa: Highest confidence in Tepper  
V.I.G. : 12/5/2019 11:26 pm : link
I never dealt with Tepper directly - but plenty of experience with his team. I'll say this. Tepper's team was as solid as they come. Here are my takeaways:

They were always super prepared. They always asked the tough questions, never settled for lazy answers. All views were backed up with facts. Where facts were lacking, and assumptions necessary - they were clearly stated. They were very comfortable with uncertainty - plenty of scenario planning for different outcome branches.

When Tepper says he wants toughness and analytics - he's talking about himself. His guys had their shit together because they needed to defend their investment thesis to Tepper and their colleagues. ACCOUNTABILITY>

Tepper was by no means an expert on every one of their investments. BUT HE KNEW IF HIS GUYS KNEW THEIR SHIT. He won't be Snyder - he won't be the know it all. BUT he will demand that every decision made by his new staff is not only the best possible decision - but each decision fits within a cohesive well thought out strategy.
RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
V.I.G. : 12/5/2019 11:27 pm : link
In comment 14704630 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:


Quote:


You get punched in the mouth !


I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?

Mike Tyson - look it up
RE: RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 11:33 pm : link
In comment 14704760 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14704630 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:


Quote:


You get punched in the mouth !


I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?


Mike Tyson - look it up

Yeah, ok, I remember Tyson saying that...
So what strategy was morrison referring to?
RE: I've dealt with Appaloosa: Highest confidence in Tepper  
BrettNYG10 : 12/5/2019 11:34 pm : link
In comment 14704759 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
I never dealt with Tepper directly - but plenty of experience with his team. I'll say this. Tepper's team was as solid as they come. Here are my takeaways:

They were always super prepared. They always asked the tough questions, never settled for lazy answers. All views were backed up with facts. Where facts were lacking, and assumptions necessary - they were clearly stated. They were very comfortable with uncertainty - plenty of scenario planning for different outcome branches.

When Tepper says he wants toughness and analytics - he's talking about himself. His guys had their shit together because they needed to defend their investment thesis to Tepper and their colleagues. ACCOUNTABILITY>

Tepper was by no means an expert on every one of their investments. BUT HE KNEW IF HIS GUYS KNEW THEIR SHIT. He won't be Snyder - he won't be the know it all. BUT he will demand that every decision made by his new staff is not only the best possible decision - but each decision fits within a cohesive well thought out strategy.


I'd be curious on if you could elaborate on your dealings with them?

I can understand, if not.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
ron mexico : 12/6/2019 7:27 am : link
In comment 14704760 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14704630 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:


Quote:


You get punched in the mouth !


I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?


Mike Tyson - look it up


Co opted by Strahan.

If anyone is getting punched in the mouth and unable to execute their plan it’s Gettleman
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
V.I.G. : 12/6/2019 9:26 am : link
In comment 14704824 ron mexico said:
Quote:
If anyone is getting punched in the mouth and unable to execute their plan it’s Gettleman
to butcher this quote even further - DG keeps punching himself
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