| "We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes. |
It's a good quote, and to be honest, an intriguing approach. It seems to be all the rage right now and I do applaud David Tepper for having the
conviction to make the unprecedented move of firing a coach like Rivera mid season to start the process right now, and not dragging his feet.
However, I have a combination of issues and questions about it, that I thought instead of spreading the conversation out over several threads, we could make a discussion that is a catch all.
I'll start with my questions regarding the quote.
1. Tepper wants an approach where old school toughness meets modern processes.
What does that look like? We have seen a couple of teams seemingly move towards this and have success in recent years, namely the Eagles and their last run, but do we have any proven example of sustained success using this model? The Eagles seem to be regressing to the mean right now. What does sustained success look like with this model, and how do we know that this perfect mixture is responsible for any given team's success? How do we know it wasn't just the stars aligning? For instance, the metrics helped the Eagles find Carson Wentz, but it was Nick Foles who won the Superbowl. Just one instance, but it makes me wonder.
2. It seems to me that the perennial playoff teams, the ones that seem to be in the playoffs year in, and year out, are the same perennial playoff teams that were doing it before the analytics craze. On that note, there was a thread yesterday where Sean asked a great question about the Steelers success, and why their seemingly traditional model of a family oriented business running the team is experiencing more success without having to change the model but so much. Terps posted a really interesting reply to it, I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here.
They've only had 3 head coaches since 1969, and each of those three coaches has won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive. They've also had the same GM (Kevin Colbert) since 2000.
So we know they value continuity...but how did they arrive at these particular hires? Continuity for continuity's sake isn't necessarily a positive...does anyone think Shurmur would become a perennial divisional contender given 10 years on the job?
So let's take a quick look at their three key leadership figures these past 20 years.
GM Kevin Colbert
- 1984: BLESTO Scout
- '85-'89: Dolphins Scout
- '90-'00: Detroit Lions Pro Scouting Director
- '00-'19 (hired age 43): Pittsburgh Steelers Director of Football Operations, named the franchise's first ever GM in '10
HC Bill Cowher
- '85-'86: Cleveland Browns Special Teams Coach
- 87-88: Browns' Defensive Backs Coach
- 89-91: KC Defensive Coordinator
- 92-06 (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
HC Mike Tomlin
- 95: VMI WR coach
- 96: Memphis grad assistant
- 97: Arkansas State WR coach
- 98: Ark. State DB coach
- 99-00: Cincinnati U DB coach
- 01-05: Tampa Bay DB coach
- 06: Vikings DC
- 07-Present (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
So they hire young guys who haven't held a job at that level in the past, and once they have them they hold onto them.
To be a fly on the wall in their interview process... |
Now I'm not saying that there is no analytical, advanced metrics at play here... I've got to believe most teams use these tools in some form or another, but how much? And why do the Steelers manage to run a family business and still pump out a perinnial contender each year? Why don't they need a consulting firm to hire a coach?
Now, my issues with it:
Football, no matter how modern you make it, will always be a violent, emotional game played by human beings. The analytics may be able to tell you the probabilities of going for it on 4th down, or going for two, etc... But they will NEVER be able to tell you which Odell Beckham (for example) is going to show up every Sunday, or how a player reacts to injury, adversity, any physical/mental variable that can't be quantified.
Finally, Tepper is being praised sight unseen for his bold approach with firing Ron Rivera. I don't know for sure, but it has to be somewhat unprecedented to fire a coach who is 5-7 midseason, 2 games under .500 with 4 to play, and has been hamstrung by missing his starting QB all season. That really is a bold move. But what if Tepper is wrong? Tepper is a business man. Ron Rivera is a football lifer. What qualifies Tepper as a football mind? If Tepper wants to bring in these consultants, shouldn't he leave Ron Rivera in place until these said consultants can give him an evaluation too? What if Tepper is making a big mistake?
Anyways, thought this would make a good discussion. Look at me!
*Ironically, the Pats and Ravens are 2 of the few that should've been going for 1 nearly every time since Gostkowski/Tucker are basically automatic.
Tepper is his own man and what he feels he needs to do is rebuild the organizational structure top to bottom. He is Adding COO and CIO to the team as well. He knows this will take time and he has that on his side right now -IMO Cam is out, Norv and the rest of the coaches too. He let Ron go so he can start interviewing other people to build his structure which if anything like his business will be compartmentalized. Highly driven by his analytics team.
Tepper is his own man and what he feels he needs to do is rebuild the organizational structure top to bottom. He is Adding COO and CIO to the team as well. He knows this will take time and he has that on his side right now -IMO Cam is out, Norv and the rest of the coaches too. He let Ron go so he can start interviewing other people to build his structure which if anything like his business will be compartmentalized. Highly driven by his analytics team.
And this is why I feel Tepper might have been a bit overzealous. Why wouldn't he hold onto Ron, who seems to embody the traits that he's looking to build in the organization, and fire him so quickly without letting him be part of the evaluation process of these new consultants? Unless he already has them and they told him to? Or did he just want to wipe the slate clean?
See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting.
Steelers - ( New Window )
See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting. Steelers - ( New Window )
Very True -they use great scouting techniques and always find Steelers first -not just talented players. They have a model they look for. That is what Gets is trying to rebuild here and I think Ron is another important component to that.
Isn't he hiring consultants to determine that? Seems like a strange determination to make on his own. Like I said, David Tepper is a successful businessman. Whether he's a successful football evaluator remains to be seen, right?
Great process with people who don't think or understand or communicate a matter at hand, won't work.
Great people who are insightful and smart and hard-working AND humble, can create great processes - for themselves.
The idea that you can plug randos into a great process and have great results is idiocy.
In Tepper you have a guy at the very top of a profession that wrote the book on data analysis, analytics, and value based resource allocation. These are all great principles to apply to any business.
In Rivera you have a guy who wears his opposition to more technology in the game as a badge of pride.
This is much like the Yankees parting ways with Girardi. He's a good manager, and in fact a championship winning manager, but was he the right choice for the future of managing a profession on the vanguard of fundamental change? Cashman decided the answer was no.
The past isn't always an indication of the future.
The next 5-7 years of NFL football will be defined by big data ingestion, human movement mapping, predictive on-field, and predictive value analytics.
Do you want a guy who gave an "impassioned" speech that there should be less technology being used in the sport? Because the other 31 franchises are going to do it.
The data will avail a lot of things coaches and management already know, and avail things they don't. I want a program that's doggedly, aggressively, fundamentally, and culturally obsessed with seeking out every advantage.
Tepper doesn't have to be a great football mind...he has to be an organizer. Tepper's job now is going to be to find the football mind(s) to put his project together. He is approaching this exactly as Mara should: leave no stone unturned in trying to understand how to win and what people to hire to do it. Mara should be taking notes.
As for the Steelers, the key for them has been getting the hire right from the get go. Colbert, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't the right hires because they were given a long leash; they were given a long leash because they were the right hires. The question is, what process did the Steelers employ to hire them? Here's what we do know:
- All were hired at a young age
- All had no prior experience in the job for which they were hired
- All had no previous ties to the Pittsburgh Steelers
Compare those points to what the Giants did in their recent GM search:
- consulted Ernie Accorsi (previous ties and an antiquated perception of the NFL)
- interviewed Gettleman (previous ties), Abrams (already employed by Giants), Ross (already employed by Giants), and Riddick (the only outsider)
- hired Gettleman at age 67
What the Giants are doing is nothing like what the Steelers have done.
Jefferson, still thinking that a king was the greatest threat to freedom, sought a law like clockwork , so detailed that men would have no part and not be seduced by power.
Madison correctly and very wisely saw that it is and always will be impossible to have freedom or justice without wise humans having authority and discernment. Because no form of law can ever have enough complexity a ND nuance to reflect humanity and human life in all its madness .
Tepper doesn't have to be a great football mind...he has to be an organizer. Tepper's job now is going to be to find the football mind(s) to put his project together. He is approaching this exactly as Mara should: leave no stone unturned in trying to understand how to win and what people to hire to do it. Mara should be taking notes.
As for the Steelers, the key for them has been getting the hire right from the get go. Colbert, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't the right hires because they were given a long leash; they were given a long leash because they were the right hires. The question is, what process did the Steelers employ to hire them? Here's what we do know:
- All were hired at a young age
- All had no prior experience in the job for which they were hired
- All had no previous ties to the Pittsburgh Steelers
Compare those points to what the Giants did in their recent GM search:
- consulted Ernie Accorsi (previous ties and an antiquated perception of the NFL)
- interviewed Gettleman (previous ties), Abrams (already employed by Giants), Ross (already employed by Giants), and Riddick (the only outsider)
- hired Gettleman at age 67
What the Giants are doing is nothing like what the Steelers have done.
I have two problems with the bolded.
1. The 7-8-1 season in which they were 3-8-1, undermanned, and battled to a 4-0 finish to win the division at 7-8-1. Then, the actually won a playoff game. I get why this is lumped in as a losing season, but I consider this a win. So does Rivera, who cited it as the best coaching job of his career. Now you can make fun of that statement, or understand why he considers that one, and not the 15-1 season, as the best.
2. This season is being lumped in as a losing season. He was 5-7 at the time of his firing. 2 games under .500 with 4 to go, and without his starting QB. This is incomplete, and unfair to lump in as another losing season.
Gee, you are having that epiphany now?
It's more about leveraging situations that perhaps weren't historically leveraged. If the past 100 years of data says, and I am making this up, never punt from your own 40, but the numbers suggest that going for it more often than not will help you win games, why wouldn't you go for it? Head coaches are notoriously conservative in their decision making and that can often be counterproductive to a victory. It's not going to work every time, but in order for it to work, you need to buy into the system.
2. What makes you so sure the Steelers haven't been able to adapt with the times? When the XP got moved back and all of these articles started coming out about how it makes sense to go for two all of the time, the Steelers started experimenting with that. They have shown a propensity to buy into the analytics.
The results over 8+ seasons were mediocre. He got them close one time. I wouldn't say he did a bad job.
Hard to see Rivera as guy that they'll rue the day they moved on from. To me, there's something to be said for having some conviction and moving in a direction, even if it's just to break some staleness.
As a fan, it's what I want from my owner -- as soon as he's (unfortunately "they" in our case") aren't 100% convinced that a regime is the right one moving forward, make the change to something you believe in. You're not convicting them in court -- you don't need to prove anything beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Rivera can get the gold star for scraping into the playoffs in a losing season, and the benefit of the doubt because Cam is hurt.
Do you think that changes the calculus as to whether Rivera projects to be the type of coach who will succeed in the a rapidly evolving sport?
Tepper doesn't have to be a great football mind...he has to be an organizer. Tepper's job now is going to be to find the football mind(s) to put his project together. He is approaching this exactly as Mara should: leave no stone unturned in trying to understand how to win and what people to hire to do it. Mara should be taking notes.
As for the Steelers, the key for them has been getting the hire right from the get go. Colbert, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't the right hires because they were given a long leash; they were given a long leash because they were the right hires. The question is, what process did the Steelers employ to hire them? Here's what we do know:
- All were hired at a young age
- All had no prior experience in the job for which they were hired
- All had no previous ties to the Pittsburgh Steelers
Compare those points to what the Giants did in their recent GM search:
- consulted Ernie Accorsi (previous ties and an antiquated perception of the NFL)
- interviewed Gettleman (previous ties), Abrams (already employed by Giants), Ross (already employed by Giants), and Riddick (the only outsider)
- hired Gettleman at age 67
What the Giants are doing is nothing like what the Steelers have done.
Unfair comparison
You didn’t post who the Steelers consulted, because the info isn’t out there or who they interviewed. The result may seem different on the surface and I’m sure there are procedural differences, but we don’t know what they are... maybe the Rooney’s have a genetic eye for talent... how does that help us as Giants fans. Maybe, just maybe it’s the people in the Steelers organization who are making the appropriate decisions. Not their process.
See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting. Steelers - ( New Window )
Interesting read. Noted this:
"Sure, some will look at those names and scream nepotism. There’s one of the Rooney’s, Colbert (Kevin’s son), and Butler, son of Jack Butler, former Steeler and longtime BLESTO scout. But there’s a family component most teams don’t have either."
A la Mara and Boisture. I guess nepotism can work if the family members are competent!
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and I attempted to answer that yesterday, they have a history of excellent scouting. They were tremendous in the '70s at harvesting the talent in the southern schools.
See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting. Steelers - ( New Window )
Interesting read. Noted this:
"Sure, some will look at those names and scream nepotism. There’s one of the Rooney’s, Colbert (Kevin’s son), and Butler, son of Jack Butler, former Steeler and longtime BLESTO scout. But there’s a family component most teams don’t have either."
A la Mara and Boisture. I guess nepotism can work if the family members are competent!
That indeed jumps out. Dan Rooney Jr is a terrific director of player personnel.
Let's be honest -that's a real flagship franchise. Their history of winning over and over and over again, decade after decade, and doing it under any economic system is phenomenal.
The Steeler brand is one word - winning. And they take that very seriously and have built a tremendous culture and infrastructure to sustain it.
Which is how we got to where we are? Loosing ?
For sure, numbers count.
But idiots with numbers are still idiots.
Our problems are much more fundamental than weather or not we work probability.
In fact, some see probabilistic trends through common sense.
That is the model the Steelers continue to follow. Great drafting, knowing your identity and developing those players.
The problem with NYG is they draft horrible, let most of their players walk, and overspend on free agents.
It is bad football operations to continue to do that.
This offseason will be a huge off season, I think a few free agents will be brought in but they will hopefully be too level second contract guys....quality players. Dupree, Thompson and Simmons. Fix the defense.
Draft Chase Young.
The Steelers have been really good at drafting for a very long time. I think the common theme with its coaches is they are great leaders with Knoll more known as a superior x and o guy imo. All three have worked out with great success but let's take a look at the similarities:
Knoll: The Steel Curtain, outstanding running game and OL. QB capable of big play and showing up in big games.
Cowher: Great front 7 most years. Routinely ranked as Top 3 defense. Great running game and balanced offense.
Tomlin: Average to Very good defense. However, they became much more of a passing team but still could run with a good/very good OL.
So to me it is quite clear why the Steelers sustained success. Now look at the Giants in a fairly close timeframe.
Parcells: Dominant front 7, outstanding OL and running game and big play QB on play action.
Reeves/Fassel: Little better than average OL play and running game. Good to very good defense. Collins offered big play but not big game stature.
Coughlin: 2004-2012: Very good/outstanding OL. Great running game and big play QB who showed up in big game. Very good defense, great front 4.
McAd, Shurm, TC2013-19: Horrible OL, inability to run the ball, poor defense. It's all because of no analytics are being used!
All this talk of analytics is meaningless until the real issue is addressed.... Talent deficiencies in areas that have stood the test of time of being the staple to winning teams imo.
Now with a talented team with good coaching.....yes they should be part of the overall operation.
Rivera is certainly no Shurmur, but he is no Belichik either. He is a guy who coached for 9 years and have a very mixed bag of results. Ultimately every coach is hired to eventually win a Superbowl, and the Panthers were not trending that way at all.
You can like Rivera for coach of the Giants all you want. Everyone has their preferred higher. But let's admit what he is up until this point- an average NFL coach.
The flip side of this is that other clubs started to catch on. Proprietary intellectual information is difficult to keep confidential. So AC Milan gradually lost it’s competitive edge as the insight seeped out, and they are now a solid “B” ranked club, no longer a European championship contender.
Analytics insights into down and distance and clock management are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that endeavor.
One opportunity that comes to mind is determining which players have the body to function within the violence of pro football and which can’t function consistently due to continuous injuries. Right now, the scouting around this question is hit or miss, based on past experience. It would be a big competitive advantage for any NFL club to gain more insight into what physical characteristics make a given player more likely to stay healthy and on the field. If I’ve had this thought, I’m sure professionals in NFL front offices have had it and are researching it. Are the Giants? Or should I say is the lone Giants quant guy getting insights into this and influencing the scouting?
(ILBx2, FSx2, Edge, NT)
Draft 2021 two versions:
"A" didn't fix OL with free agents and existing roster - draft OL early.
"B" DID fix it. Draft WR,RB,WR, TE etc.
As coach and GM that ought to motivate you for fixing the line without drafting it. To go for outcome "b".
Perfect example was the Pats pulling N’Keal Harry when he allowed the Texans CB to jump a route. At the time that they pulled him, they were incredibly short at WR and certainly could have used a 6’3 220lb guy like Harry. But they pulled him because he fucked up and they don’t put up with it.
Contrast that to Saquon repeatedly failing in pass protection, getting blown up by smaller guys and just out and out missing assignments. Do you think that Saquon’s performance would fly with Belichick? Parcels? Joe Gibbs?
That’s culture to me. It’s what separates all-star teams like the Browns from the Steelers, who have Duck Hodges and a bunch of fill-ins winning week after week.
Rivera is certainly no Shurmur, but he is no Belichik either. He is a guy who coached for 9 years and have a very mixed bag of results. Ultimately every coach is hired to eventually win a Superbowl, and the Panthers were not trending that way at all.
You can like Rivera for coach of the Giants all you want. Everyone has their preferred higher. But let's admit what he is up until this point- an average NFL coach.
This is it in a nutshell.
Do we want to strive for a good process and seeking out the right coach, or do we desperately just want to do better than Shurmur...
Posters on here want to hire Rivera predominately because he has been more successful than Shurmur.
Do you see the difference?
Tifo Football Podcast - October 21, 2019
Tifo football (their YouTube channel it's also an invaluable resource) interviewed Nikos Overheul of Statsbomb to talk about how analytics are applied in soccer.
Overheul talks about the various services his company provides, including manager recruitment to for certain goal statements (i.e. we're a midtable club on a shoestring budget looking to avoid relegation - find us a manager that fits that profile). It was a fascinating discussion...one idea I recall was the concept of building squads to specifically win the first 5 or 6 games on the schedule, with the thinking being you can't win a title in September but you can certainly lose it.
Check it out if you get the chance. There was a lot that's applicable to the Giants' current predicament.
It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him
But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.
If the buffoons at Jints Central were forward thinking, they'd do the same thing. Fire Shurmur. Make whomever the interim coach. Detail what's going to occur in the off-season to fix this endless mess. And put everyone on notice that a full organization colonoscopy is about to take place...
But that's obviously wishful thinking. Let's just stay nice and steady. Keep rubbing the rabbit's foot, hanging hores shoes, crossing fingers, etc and hope, for the third time, in 10+ years we catch lightening in a bottle...
But it hasn’t worked out
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.
Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.
You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.
See the difference?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
He want us to believe that having 3 out of 9 winning seasons is actually good. So winning at .333 of your seasons coached is akin to a baseball player hitting .333.
And we should be further inspired by the outlier 15-1 season. Of course, that was a complete outlier - for both the team and the key player (Newton) - and similar success has been sniffed sense.
But let's hire Rivera because our standards have sunk so low. Mediocre is still a step up...right?
It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him
But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.
If you could have any coach in the world, you'd choose Rivera?
I think you just happen to be really good at two things: 1) reading the tea leaves with regard to what the Giants are likely to do, and 2) convincing yourself that it's exactly what you wanted Santa to bring you for Christmas all along.
What's the Giants' plan? I've been asking that question here for years and never gotten an answer.
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at it.
It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him
But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.
If you could have any coach in the world, you'd choose Rivera?
I think you just happen to be really good at two things: 1) reading the tea leaves with regard to what the Giants are likely to do, and 2) convincing yourself that it's exactly what you wanted Santa to bring you for Christmas all along.
Any coach in the world? No
Of the coaches that I know to be available right now? Yes.
He has done nothing to improve the organization so far and that disappoints me
2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th
Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.
So what's really to like?
I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th
Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.
So what's really to like?
His Ds with the Bears/Chargers were very good (IIRC a couple years at #1). That's where his rep for strong Ds comes from.
What’s Mara’s plan? Most disturbing is that I think he doesn’t even knows how to start formulating a plan. Tepper can draw on a wealth of experience. Mara knows... the Giants.
Insular - and hence ignorant.
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Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.
I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
There is nobody that could convince you, or a handful of others of that. Nobody with any connection whatsoever to Dave Gettleman, Accorsi or the Giants in any way is acceptable. This eliminates quite a few candidates probably, but those are your parameters and you're sticking to them.
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is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.
Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.
You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.
See the difference?
I already commented about Tepper and what I thought about his approach. Please tell me its okay to discuss intrinsically linked topics in one of your threads please?
In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.
"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."
I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
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about Rivera being some defensive guru, here is where the Rivera Ds were on a points allowed basis over his 9 seasons:
2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th
Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.
So what's really to like?
His Ds with the Bears/Chargers were very good (IIRC a couple years at #1). That's where his rep for strong Ds comes from.
His DC stint with the Bears from '04 to '06 was very good - true. His DC stint with the Chargers from '08 to '10 was pretty good.
But he hasn't been short of defensive talent in Carolina - true? Something has slipped...
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In comment 14704168 Jimmy Googs said:
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is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.
Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.
You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.
See the difference?
I already commented about Tepper and what I thought about his approach. Please tell me its okay to discuss intrinsically linked topics in one of your threads please?
Nope, not allowed. Kind of like the last thread where you had to agree to be ok with Gettleman staying and Rivera being hired in order to be in favor of Chase Young, and if you didn't want Rivera or Gettleman, you were implicitly opposed to drafting Young.
He's not a loser but you act like he is manna from heaven sitting here on Dec 5th.
The Giants need a plan and a process...not a knee-jerk reaction
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In comment 14704205 Britt in VA said:
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Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.
I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
There is nobody that could convince you, or a handful of others of that. Nobody with any connection whatsoever to Dave Gettleman, Accorsi or the Giants in any way is acceptable. This eliminates quite a few candidates probably, but those are your parameters and you're sticking to them.
That's because Accorsi still thinks it's 1981, and Dave Gettleman sucks at his job.
How much more proof do you need, man? How many games do we have to lose?
In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.
"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."
I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
What the hell are you talking about?
You really are a kook sometimes...
In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.
"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."
I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
The quote you're using in your OP is absolutely intrinsically linked to Tepper terminating Rivera. How could you argue otherwise?
And more importantly, would you be starting this thread if it wasn't linked to the object of your affection as the next HC?
You can spin it however you want, but at least be honest with yourself - there zero chance this whole thing is even on your radar if you didn't have a massive erection for Rivera to succeed Shurmur.
Temper tantrum - BBI style...
Some like Rivera and that's fine. But he has certainly not accomplished enough to be a clear favorite for the position, nor to not have many want to look elsewhere.
I don't know why that is difficult to understand.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
I guess he has a cool nickname - Riverboat Ron. Oh, and per FMiC, he and Gettleman apparently worked well together...
I don't think Terps really believes that.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
I don't think Terps really believes that.
You're right. When you go 7-8-1 AND win your division, it means you were below .500 despite playing in a shitty division. When you go 7-8-1 and miss the playoffs, you had to have faced at least one decent division rival.
Very good point, although probably not the one you intended.
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I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
Well, whenever we're ready to find a GM who can do better than that and not be an absolute liability in free agency, maybe we can pull out of the tailspin. Until then, all Mara has done is order new nameplates and business cards for the same stale Accorsi regime.
2013 - Nothing.
2014 - Beckham, Richburg, Kennard. Should have kept Kennard. Could not pay Richburg based on his play.
2015 - 1 year of Landon Collins
2016 - Shepard, always hurt
2017 - Engram, always hurt
2018 - doesn't look spectacular, but it looks a hell of a lot better than previous years.
2019 - Too early to tell, but gotta figure a few good players come out of it, including a franchise QB
I don't think Terps really believes that.
What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.
I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.
If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.
While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"
That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
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I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-
Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.
It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
Maybe beacause the draft is fun or for whatever personal reasons, people like determinism. Folks jump right from blame the higher ups to deterministic views on players without looking at how we got here.
But it's more and more obvious than ever that player outcomes ALSO depend on situation, scheme , training, coaching AS WELL as (aptitude and physicality and some innate predetermined characteristics.)
Right now it's OL , run game and maybe D backs.
How you choose unit and assistant coaches might be open to review.
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7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.
I don't think Terps really believes that.
What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.
I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.
If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.
While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"
That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.
I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.
Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
Trying to keep analytics out of football is like trying to keep computers out of the workplace. Sure, it's possible to operate without computers and there are nuances that humans will only catch, but if all your competitors are using computers, you are in trouble if you are not.
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I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.
Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.
It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
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In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:
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I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-
Name them.
The only players you could possibly be talking about are:
Eli Apple
Darian Thompson
Ereck Flowers
Landon Collins
Odell Beckham Jr
Weston Richburg
Devon Kennard
Justin Pugh
Which of those players are lighting it up with their new teams?
Bingo! I agree!
But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.
Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?
I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.
Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
If Gettleman evaluated the team and determined that their talent level wouldn't allow them to compete, why did he make moves that (even optimistically) could only benefit the Giants in the short term?
Revisionist history about "rebuilding" aside, every move Gettleman made in the Spring and Summer of 2018 was made with the 2018 season in mind.
Gettleman either thought the Giants were a few moves away from being a contender, or lied about it to convince Mara to hire him. Either way, it's bad.
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In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:
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7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.
I don't think Terps really believes that.
What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.
I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.
If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.
While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"
That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.
I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.
Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
When you sign a 27 year old FA to a multi-year K with a $5M AAV and almost 40% of the contract guaranteed, that's more than a stopgap measure. Omameh was a shitty signing. To rationalize it as an attempted stopgap is revisionist history, IMO. He was signed to be a part of the solution going forward and was an abject failure.
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I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.
Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.
It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
Sometimes you can feel where it's going. It started to be about 3-5 posters, the same posters I usually go around with, and it usually ends up the same spot. It's not that I'm uncomfortable, it's that I don't feel like going down the same road again.
I truly started this thread to explore the David Tepper quote, and while I want Ron Rivera as the next coach of the Giants, I did not care to discuss Ron Rivera in any capacity other than his role in why Tepper made the decision he did, and where he was going, and what the intrinsic risks are/were with the move. Also, to have a platform for everybody to discuss this marriage of old school toughness and new school metrics, minus the angst associated with being a Giants fan right now, and whether we should or shouldn't be moving that direction. Essentially, a tool for everybody to discuss the pros and cons of the philosophy independently of what you want for the Giants.
I disagree that this is intrinsically related to the Giants, and I was careful not to word it that way when I wrote the op.
But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.
Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?
Fair enough. There certainly is a lot to criticize.
Same for Gatorade Dunk's post as well. I see your point.
So #1 covers #2, the ideas.
The technology must serve those ideas keeping in mind that idea #1 is to be humble enough to talk within the group and to keep learning.
Ownership by definition is in, BUT things can get dicey if they don't understand some of the concepts of the right people OR are unwilling or una l to listen, which is a Hallmark of the right people:
To have real conversations, not the old "oh, I'm sorry, what was that in the window? , " Wait...sorry, what....I just got a text".. "what was that you just said? ... " " What did he just say? "
Or "whatever, let's just do what we want"
I’d bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh we’re hired prior to 10 years back.
Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.
Often little to do with each other , those qualities.
The NFL is obviously a tremendously competitive environment. To me, the teams that have cracked the code in terms of developing consistently competitive franchises are the Ravens/Pats/Steelers. Maybe the Saints, Seahawks, and Chiefs as well (I'm a big Reid fan).
I'm interested in seeing how Tepper's plan develops.
The NFL is obviously a tremendously competitive environment. To me, the teams that have cracked the code in terms of developing consistently competitive franchises are the Ravens/Pats/Steelers. Maybe the Saints, Seahawks, and Chiefs as well (I'm a big Reid fan).
I'm interested in seeing how Tepper's plan develops.
Well said.
Either old school toughness OR use of advance technology and analytics.
Why can't it be both?
I don't think any advocate of technology and analytics in football is suggesting to do away with old school toughness.
I am separating Analytics an Technology for a reason. Analytics is not technology. Its an approach and a process. It is usually supported by technology. But there are many more uses of technology even beyond supporting analytics.
The Analytics approach is about ideas and testing those ideas. So you still need people with ideas. The technology gives you the ability to test a much broader range of ideas. It provides the opportunity to test if conventional wisdom produces the best results, or are there other methods that can consistently show better results. The technology allows you to crunch the data much faster and thus test more ideas. What you need are people who are out of the box thinkers. In the end, its all just an augmentation process to provide deeper insight and hopefully guide improved decision making.
Other uses of technology:
VR simulators can give players the opportunity to get more reps. The coaches and tech can program the simulations to teach the player the desired techniques and things to see in live action.
Video analysis of players in practice. Coaches can't see everything. Parameters can be coded into a system that validates if players are doing what they need to do to optimize performance.
Interactive playbooks for laptops or tablets that go beyond the simple diagram, they can show graphics how plays should unfold against various opposing scenarios.
And I haven't even gotten into technology for health issues. Detailed measurements of strength and burst (quick twitch) of specific muscles and joints. Using this to help players rehab, or even designing strength and conditioning programs, also player evaluation for FA and draft, etc.
We can go on forever. There are literally thousands of ways tech can help. And its not just computers, although the computers always help with the math and analysis. Again, you need out of the box thinkers to come up with all the ideas and ways the tach can help. Figure out the one that are truly impactful and push those things to the limits. Drop the ones that don't make as much of a difference. Its going to be an evolutionary process. So the longer you wait to get started, the farther behind the evolutionary ladder you are...
You can do all this and STILL maintain old school toughness in your coaches, but give them tools that make what they want to get more effective. I think a lot of this is more and more critical with the CBAs and the fact that proactive time is more and more limited.
If that's what you want, let the technology help you find those players and avoid the ones that are more finesse. Let your strength and conditioning build those players to meet the demands. Give the players the learning tools to execute that approach...
It's not an either/or proposition.
I’d bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh we’re hired prior to 10 years back.
Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.
I think the goal should be to do better than Rivera and hit a HR. I know BB is not walking through the doors of Jints Central while he's still alive - that ship has sailed - but I think with the proper due diligence we could strike gold. Which is why Shurmur should by fired as soon as possible to begin the search. That is why Tepper's move to fire Rivera is smart because he can get right into that evaluation.
To be clear, I don't mind Rivera being in the mix. But he's shouldn't be in the high valued target zone. Too many question marks in his resume...
And, frankly, finding the right coach only solves part of the problem. The larger problem is in management/scouting.
That's more Joe Brady and his wizardry getting Burrow to look like Joe Montana... ;)
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But, I’d be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.
I’d bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh we’re hired prior to 10 years back.
Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.
I think the goal should be to do better than Rivera and hit a HR. I know BB is not walking through the doors of Jints Central while he's still alive - that ship has sailed - but I think with the proper due diligence we could strike gold. Which is why Shurmur should by fired as soon as possible to begin the search. That is why Tepper's move to fire Rivera is smart because he can get right into that evaluation.
To be clear, I don't mind Rivera being in the mix. But he's shouldn't be in the high valued target zone. Too many question marks in his resume...
And, frankly, finding the right coach only solves part of the problem. The larger problem is in management/scouting.
I agree with above thoughts as well bw. Shurmur is a bit a trainwreck but way too much of BBI blame lately has been funneling to him...clearly needs to be spread around much more broadly
Ignore all that shit.
10-34 does not work for me.
NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Results, that is all I really care about.
Fucking win or GTFO.
It sucks to suck.
the CBAs and the fact that practice time is more and more limited.
'86 team:
LT
BANKS
CARSON
BAVARO
SIMMS
MORRIS
2007 TEAM
MANNING
PLAX
STRAHAN
TUCK
WEBSTER
ROBBINS
SNEE
Who the fuck does this team have that can sniff the jocks of those guys?
Barkley, and that's it for now until some of the young defenders step up.
Peppers might ascend to that level, Williams and Lawrence also, maybe Hernandez becomes another Snee. Sheppard is very good when healthy, but his long term health is very much in question. Engram has shown only glimpses.
This team is a long way off in personnel and that's neither Gettleman's nor Shurmur's fault.
However, I know there is a good chance that won’t happen. Gettleman took on massive dead cap money this year & drafted Daniel Jones at #6 last April. Changing course 9 months later is unlikely.
I believe a huge part of our problem the last 6 years has been a lack of harmony between GM & HC. I don’t think Reese & Coughlin were on the same page. It never made sense to me that Shurmur was the guy after hearing Gettleman describe defensive minded head coaches. Gettleman doesn’t feel like a offensive specialist HC type GM. I don’t think it’s a good fit. I believe Gettleman wanted Patricia.
I do think Gettleman-Rivera would fit the best in terms of GM/HC philosophy, the best in a long term with this franchise. If Gettleman will be retained which I think is probably the case, I think pairing Rivera with him makes the most sense.
I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.
What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?
Only having 3 out of 9 winning seasons in Carolina jumps out. While Rivera's strength is D, in those 9 seasons Carolina only finished inside the top third in the league in 3X in PPG allowed. And he certainly wasn't short on talent on that side of the ball.
As I said earlier, I think we can throw Rivera into the mix as a possible HC candidate. That's fine. But let's fire Shurmur now and begin a real deep dive to find THE best candidates. And not settle for someone who is slightly above average.
'86 team:
LT
BANKS
CARSON
BAVARO
SIMMS
MORRIS
2007 TEAM
MANNING
PLAX
STRAHAN
TUCK
WEBSTER
ROBBINS
SNEE
Who the fuck does this team have that can sniff the jocks of those guys?
Barkley, and that's it for now until some of the young defenders step up.
Peppers might ascend to that level, Williams and Lawrence also, maybe Hernandez becomes another Snee. Sheppard is very good when healthy, but his long term health is very much in question. Engram has shown only glimpses.
This team is a long way off in personnel and that's neither Gettleman's nor Shurmur's fault.
Gettlemans free agents trades and drafts in that time frame have yielded pitiful results. In two years the team is at best the same talent wise as when he took over after 2017.
They were always super prepared. They always asked the tough questions, never settled for lazy answers. All views were backed up with facts. Where facts were lacking, and assumptions necessary - they were clearly stated. They were very comfortable with uncertainty - plenty of scenario planning for different outcome branches.
When Tepper says he wants toughness and analytics - he's talking about himself. His guys had their shit together because they needed to defend their investment thesis to Tepper and their colleagues. ACCOUNTABILITY>
Tepper was by no means an expert on every one of their investments. BUT HE KNEW IF HIS GUYS KNEW THEIR SHIT. He won't be Snyder - he won't be the know it all. BUT he will demand that every decision made by his new staff is not only the best possible decision - but each decision fits within a cohesive well thought out strategy.
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You get punched in the mouth !
I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.
What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?
Mike Tyson - look it up
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In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:
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You get punched in the mouth !
I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.
What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?
Mike Tyson - look it up
Yeah, ok, I remember Tyson saying that...
So what strategy was morrison referring to?
They were always super prepared. They always asked the tough questions, never settled for lazy answers. All views were backed up with facts. Where facts were lacking, and assumptions necessary - they were clearly stated. They were very comfortable with uncertainty - plenty of scenario planning for different outcome branches.
When Tepper says he wants toughness and analytics - he's talking about himself. His guys had their shit together because they needed to defend their investment thesis to Tepper and their colleagues. ACCOUNTABILITY>
Tepper was by no means an expert on every one of their investments. BUT HE KNEW IF HIS GUYS KNEW THEIR SHIT. He won't be Snyder - he won't be the know it all. BUT he will demand that every decision made by his new staff is not only the best possible decision - but each decision fits within a cohesive well thought out strategy.
I'd be curious on if you could elaborate on your dealings with them?
I can understand, if not.
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In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:
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You get punched in the mouth !
I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.
What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?
Mike Tyson - look it up
Co opted by Strahan.
If anyone is getting punched in the mouth and unable to execute their plan it’s Gettleman