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Let's talk about that David Tepper quote

Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 11:17 am
Quote:
"We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes.


It's a good quote, and to be honest, an intriguing approach. It seems to be all the rage right now and I do applaud David Tepper for having the conviction to make the unprecedented move of firing a coach like Rivera mid season to start the process right now, and not dragging his feet.

However, I have a combination of issues and questions about it, that I thought instead of spreading the conversation out over several threads, we could make a discussion that is a catch all.

I'll start with my questions regarding the quote.

1. Tepper wants an approach where old school toughness meets modern processes.

What does that look like? We have seen a couple of teams seemingly move towards this and have success in recent years, namely the Eagles and their last run, but do we have any proven example of sustained success using this model? The Eagles seem to be regressing to the mean right now. What does sustained success look like with this model, and how do we know that this perfect mixture is responsible for any given team's success? How do we know it wasn't just the stars aligning? For instance, the metrics helped the Eagles find Carson Wentz, but it was Nick Foles who won the Superbowl. Just one instance, but it makes me wonder.

2. It seems to me that the perennial playoff teams, the ones that seem to be in the playoffs year in, and year out, are the same perennial playoff teams that were doing it before the analytics craze. On that note, there was a thread yesterday where Sean asked a great question about the Steelers success, and why their seemingly traditional model of a family oriented business running the team is experiencing more success without having to change the model but so much. Terps posted a really interesting reply to it, I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here.

Quote:
They've only had 3 head coaches since 1969, and each of those three coaches has won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive. They've also had the same GM (Kevin Colbert) since 2000.

So we know they value continuity...but how did they arrive at these particular hires? Continuity for continuity's sake isn't necessarily a positive...does anyone think Shurmur would become a perennial divisional contender given 10 years on the job?

So let's take a quick look at their three key leadership figures these past 20 years.

GM Kevin Colbert

- 1984: BLESTO Scout
- '85-'89: Dolphins Scout
- '90-'00: Detroit Lions Pro Scouting Director
- '00-'19 (hired age 43): Pittsburgh Steelers Director of Football Operations, named the franchise's first ever GM in '10

HC Bill Cowher

- '85-'86: Cleveland Browns Special Teams Coach
- 87-88: Browns' Defensive Backs Coach
- 89-91: KC Defensive Coordinator
- 92-06 (hired age 35): Steelers head coach

HC Mike Tomlin

- 95: VMI WR coach
- 96: Memphis grad assistant
- 97: Arkansas State WR coach
- 98: Ark. State DB coach
- 99-00: Cincinnati U DB coach
- 01-05: Tampa Bay DB coach
- 06: Vikings DC
- 07-Present (hired age 35): Steelers head coach

So they hire young guys who haven't held a job at that level in the past, and once they have them they hold onto them.

To be a fly on the wall in their interview process...


Now I'm not saying that there is no analytical, advanced metrics at play here... I've got to believe most teams use these tools in some form or another, but how much? And why do the Steelers manage to run a family business and still pump out a perinnial contender each year? Why don't they need a consulting firm to hire a coach?



Now, my issues with it:

Football, no matter how modern you make it, will always be a violent, emotional game played by human beings. The analytics may be able to tell you the probabilities of going for it on 4th down, or going for two, etc... But they will NEVER be able to tell you which Odell Beckham (for example) is going to show up every Sunday, or how a player reacts to injury, adversity, any physical/mental variable that can't be quantified.

Finally, Tepper is being praised sight unseen for his bold approach with firing Ron Rivera. I don't know for sure, but it has to be somewhat unprecedented to fire a coach who is 5-7 midseason, 2 games under .500 with 4 to play, and has been hamstrung by missing his starting QB all season. That really is a bold move. But what if Tepper is wrong? Tepper is a business man. Ron Rivera is a football lifer. What qualifies Tepper as a football mind? If Tepper wants to bring in these consultants, shouldn't he leave Ron Rivera in place until these said consultants can give him an evaluation too? What if Tepper is making a big mistake?

Anyways, thought this would make a good discussion. Look at me!
BB, Harbaugh, Tomlin  
giants#1 : 12/5/2019 11:28 am : link
3 of the top coaches in the league and they are basically what Tepper is describing. You'd probably consider them "old school", but all 3 are extremely open to analytics and getting any edge possible. For example, IIRC the first year they moved the XP back, Tomlin was the most aggressive coach in the league in going for 2, which is the smart, analytics play for many* teams.

*Ironically, the Pats and Ravens are 2 of the few that should've been going for 1 nearly every time since Gostkowski/Tucker are basically automatic.
Rivera ia open to using analytics  
Gettledogman : 12/5/2019 11:34 am : link
He has proven so many times but he also know the importance of momentum and toughness. He did take a losing team and win the Division 4 times and he did it with a QB that continued to be hurt.

Tepper is his own man and what he feels he needs to do is rebuild the organizational structure top to bottom. He is Adding COO and CIO to the team as well. He knows this will take time and he has that on his side right now -IMO Cam is out, Norv and the rest of the coaches too. He let Ron go so he can start interviewing other people to build his structure which if anything like his business will be compartmentalized. Highly driven by his analytics team.
RE: Rivera ia open to using analytics  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14703987 Gettledogman said:
Quote:
He has proven so many times but he also know the importance of momentum and toughness. He did take a losing team and win the Division 4 times and he did it with a QB that continued to be hurt.

Tepper is his own man and what he feels he needs to do is rebuild the organizational structure top to bottom. He is Adding COO and CIO to the team as well. He knows this will take time and he has that on his side right now -IMO Cam is out, Norv and the rest of the coaches too. He let Ron go so he can start interviewing other people to build his structure which if anything like his business will be compartmentalized. Highly driven by his analytics team.


And this is why I feel Tepper might have been a bit overzealous. Why wouldn't he hold onto Ron, who seems to embody the traits that he's looking to build in the organization, and fire him so quickly without letting him be part of the evaluation process of these new consultants? Unless he already has them and they told him to? Or did he just want to wipe the slate clean?
On the Pittsburgh question...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 11:44 am : link
and I attempted to answer that yesterday, they have a history of excellent scouting. They were tremendous in the '70s at harvesting the talent in the southern schools.

See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting.
Steelers - ( New Window )
He has to start fresh organizationally  
Gettledogman : 12/5/2019 11:45 am : link
this is very fortuitous for the Giants - I have wanted this guy forever. Chicago blew it with him. He will be sanpped up quickly -2 x time coach of the year. A Super Bowl win one play away -we all saw the QB on the fumble -a play w many ramifications. But like I tell clients don't overthink it. This is the right guy for this team at this time.
Tepper's been evaluating Rivera since he bought the team  
giants#1 : 12/5/2019 11:46 am : link
clearly Tepper didn't feel Rivera's approach aligned with what he wanted in a HC.
RE: On the Pittsburgh question...  
Gettledogman : 12/5/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14704004 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and I attempted to answer that yesterday, they have a history of excellent scouting. They were tremendous in the '70s at harvesting the talent in the southern schools.

See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting. Steelers - ( New Window )


Very True -they use great scouting techniques and always find Steelers first -not just talented players. They have a model they look for. That is what Gets is trying to rebuild here and I think Ron is another important component to that.
RE: Tepper's been evaluating Rivera since he bought the team  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 11:48 am : link
In comment 14704009 giants#1 said:
Quote:
clearly Tepper didn't feel Rivera's approach aligned with what he wanted in a HC.


Isn't he hiring consultants to determine that? Seems like a strange determination to make on his own. Like I said, David Tepper is a successful businessman. Whether he's a successful football evaluator remains to be seen, right?
In all things there is a tension between  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 11:52 am : link
Process and People.

Great process with people who don't think or understand or communicate a matter at hand, won't work.

Great people who are insightful and smart and hard-working AND humble, can create great processes - for themselves.

The idea that you can plug randos into a great process and have great results is idiocy.
...  
christian : 12/5/2019 11:52 am : link
Tepper was crystal clear he thought it was unfair to Rivera to search for his replacement behind his back, that is why he let him go.

In Tepper you have a guy at the very top of a profession that wrote the book on data analysis, analytics, and value based resource allocation. These are all great principles to apply to any business.

In Rivera you have a guy who wears his opposition to more technology in the game as a badge of pride.

This is much like the Yankees parting ways with Girardi. He's a good manager, and in fact a championship winning manager, but was he the right choice for the future of managing a profession on the vanguard of fundamental change? Cashman decided the answer was no.

The past isn't always an indication of the future.

The next 5-7 years of NFL football will be defined by big data ingestion, human movement mapping, predictive on-field, and predictive value analytics.

Do you want a guy who gave an "impassioned" speech that there should be less technology being used in the sport? Because the other 31 franchises are going to do it.

The data will avail a lot of things coaches and management already know, and avail things they don't. I want a program that's doggedly, aggressively, fundamentally, and culturally obsessed with seeking out every advantage.
New  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 11:54 am : link
Owners will want to put their own people in place. Tepper didnít touch the football side for 1.75 seasons. Losing at home to the Redskins was the final straw and he wanted to get a head start on recruiting.....something the timbits at Jints Central should have done at the bye week with Its Pat!
Rivera is 76-63-1 as a head coach  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 11:55 am : link
Only 3 of his 9 seasons ended with a winning record. Let's not act like Tepper just fired George Halas. Rivera's not Shurmur-level incompetent, but he hasn't proven to be a great head coach either. The odds are pretty low that Tepper just made a huge mistake.

Tepper doesn't have to be a great football mind...he has to be an organizer. Tepper's job now is going to be to find the football mind(s) to put his project together. He is approaching this exactly as Mara should: leave no stone unturned in trying to understand how to win and what people to hire to do it. Mara should be taking notes.

As for the Steelers, the key for them has been getting the hire right from the get go. Colbert, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't the right hires because they were given a long leash; they were given a long leash because they were the right hires. The question is, what process did the Steelers employ to hire them? Here's what we do know:

- All were hired at a young age
- All had no prior experience in the job for which they were hired
- All had no previous ties to the Pittsburgh Steelers

Compare those points to what the Giants did in their recent GM search:

- consulted Ernie Accorsi (previous ties and an antiquated perception of the NFL)
- interviewed Gettleman (previous ties), Abrams (already employed by Giants), Ross (already employed by Giants), and Riddick (the only outsider)
- hired Gettleman at age 67

What the Giants are doing is nothing like what the Steelers have done.

I think Seattle is the model  
bradshaw44 : 12/5/2019 11:55 am : link
everyone is trying to emulate.
I'm rereading what I wrote about the Giants' GM "search"  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 11:58 am : link
It's amazing what a complete fucking farce it was. It's no wonder it's turned out the way it did: garbage in, garbage out.
half the posters  
uther99 : 12/5/2019 11:59 am : link
on this board could have come up with that quote. Doing it is a whole other matter
It's like the old Thomas Jefferson vs Madison  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 11:59 am : link
Argument. I think I recall this correctly:

Jefferson, still thinking that a king was the greatest threat to freedom, sought a law like clockwork , so detailed that men would have no part and not be seduced by power.

Madison correctly and very wisely saw that it is and always will be impossible to have freedom or justice without wise humans having authority and discernment. Because no form of law can ever have enough complexity a ND nuance to reflect humanity and human life in all its madness .
RE: Rivera is 76-63-1 as a head coach  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14704022 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only 3 of his 9 seasons ended with a winning record. Let's not act like Tepper just fired George Halas. Rivera's not Shurmur-level incompetent, but he hasn't proven to be a great head coach either. The odds are pretty low that Tepper just made a huge mistake.

Tepper doesn't have to be a great football mind...he has to be an organizer. Tepper's job now is going to be to find the football mind(s) to put his project together. He is approaching this exactly as Mara should: leave no stone unturned in trying to understand how to win and what people to hire to do it. Mara should be taking notes.

As for the Steelers, the key for them has been getting the hire right from the get go. Colbert, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't the right hires because they were given a long leash; they were given a long leash because they were the right hires. The question is, what process did the Steelers employ to hire them? Here's what we do know:

- All were hired at a young age
- All had no prior experience in the job for which they were hired
- All had no previous ties to the Pittsburgh Steelers

Compare those points to what the Giants did in their recent GM search:

- consulted Ernie Accorsi (previous ties and an antiquated perception of the NFL)
- interviewed Gettleman (previous ties), Abrams (already employed by Giants), Ross (already employed by Giants), and Riddick (the only outsider)
- hired Gettleman at age 67

What the Giants are doing is nothing like what the Steelers have done.


I have two problems with the bolded.

1. The 7-8-1 season in which they were 3-8-1, undermanned, and battled to a 4-0 finish to win the division at 7-8-1. Then, the actually won a playoff game. I get why this is lumped in as a losing season, but I consider this a win. So does Rivera, who cited it as the best coaching job of his career. Now you can make fun of that statement, or understand why he considers that one, and not the 15-1 season, as the best.

2. This season is being lumped in as a losing season. He was 5-7 at the time of his firing. 2 games under .500 with 4 to go, and without his starting QB. This is incomplete, and unfair to lump in as another losing season.
RE: I'm rereading what I wrote about the Giants' GM  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14704026 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's amazing what a complete fucking farce it was. It's no wonder it's turned out the way it did: garbage in, garbage out.


Gee, you are having that epiphany now?
Terps...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 12:06 pm : link
Read the link I added above about the Steelers scouting department. That's the backbone of their success...
Two things  
BH28 : 12/5/2019 12:06 pm : link
1. Obviously analytics isn't going to tell you what player is going to show up on Sunday. That's not what it's used for and anyone who thinks that will always be against it.

It's more about leveraging situations that perhaps weren't historically leveraged. If the past 100 years of data says, and I am making this up, never punt from your own 40, but the numbers suggest that going for it more often than not will help you win games, why wouldn't you go for it? Head coaches are notoriously conservative in their decision making and that can often be counterproductive to a victory. It's not going to work every time, but in order for it to work, you need to buy into the system.

2. What makes you so sure the Steelers haven't been able to adapt with the times? When the XP got moved back and all of these articles started coming out about how it makes sense to go for two all of the time, the Steelers started experimenting with that. They have shown a propensity to buy into the analytics.
owner wants to go in a different direction.  
bigbluehoya : 12/5/2019 12:07 pm : link
I guess you can dissect as far down as you can go, but we'll never know exactly how the conversations and interactions have gone since he bought the team.

The results over 8+ seasons were mediocre. He got them close one time. I wouldn't say he did a bad job.

Hard to see Rivera as guy that they'll rue the day they moved on from. To me, there's something to be said for having some conviction and moving in a direction, even if it's just to break some staleness.

As a fan, it's what I want from my owner -- as soon as he's (unfortunately "they" in our case") aren't 100% convinced that a regime is the right one moving forward, make the change to something you believe in. You're not convicting them in court -- you don't need to prove anything beyond the shadow of a doubt.
...  
christian : 12/5/2019 12:08 pm : link
Tepper owned a minority stake in a highly successful team, and then gave Rivera 1.5 years. He didn't rush to a judgement. He gave it a lot of time.

Rivera can get the gold star for scraping into the playoffs in a losing season, and the benefit of the doubt because Cam is hurt.

Do you think that changes the calculus as to whether Rivera projects to be the type of coach who will succeed in the a rapidly evolving sport?
RE: Rivera is 76-63-1 as a head coach  
aGiantGuy : 12/5/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14704022 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Only 3 of his 9 seasons ended with a winning record. Let's not act like Tepper just fired George Halas. Rivera's not Shurmur-level incompetent, but he hasn't proven to be a great head coach either. The odds are pretty low that Tepper just made a huge mistake.

Tepper doesn't have to be a great football mind...he has to be an organizer. Tepper's job now is going to be to find the football mind(s) to put his project together. He is approaching this exactly as Mara should: leave no stone unturned in trying to understand how to win and what people to hire to do it. Mara should be taking notes.

As for the Steelers, the key for them has been getting the hire right from the get go. Colbert, Cowher, and Tomlin weren't the right hires because they were given a long leash; they were given a long leash because they were the right hires. The question is, what process did the Steelers employ to hire them? Here's what we do know:

- All were hired at a young age
- All had no prior experience in the job for which they were hired
- All had no previous ties to the Pittsburgh Steelers

Compare those points to what the Giants did in their recent GM search:

- consulted Ernie Accorsi (previous ties and an antiquated perception of the NFL)
- interviewed Gettleman (previous ties), Abrams (already employed by Giants), Ross (already employed by Giants), and Riddick (the only outsider)
- hired Gettleman at age 67

What the Giants are doing is nothing like what the Steelers have done.

Unfair comparison
You didnít post who the Steelers consulted, because the info isnít out there or who they interviewed. The result may seem different on the surface and Iím sure there are procedural differences, but we donít know what they are... maybe the Rooneyís have a genetic eye for talent... how does that help us as Giants fans. Maybe, just maybe itís the people in the Steelers organization who are making the appropriate decisions. Not their process.
LOL!  
mdthedream : 12/5/2019 12:10 pm : link
Do you think that is what Bill does? NOT! Give me a guy that can coach players and command respect.
Britt  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 12:10 pm : link
I'm going to be honest with you, the last 7 years have completely worn me out on excuses and rationalizations. The numbers are what the numbers are. We get enough of that kind of bullshit from Gettleman and Shurmur now; I don't want any more of it. 7-8-1 is 7-8-1.

I'm grateful I lived long enough  
GiantEgo : 12/5/2019 12:11 pm : link
To see the dawning of the Tepper Era.
Rivera  
mdthedream : 12/5/2019 12:11 pm : link
lost his QB and to be honest I feel Newton was the biggest problem with the me attitude.
RE: On the Pittsburgh question...  
Del Shofner : 12/5/2019 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14704004 bw in dc said:
Quote:
and I attempted to answer that yesterday, they have a history of excellent scouting. They were tremendous in the '70s at harvesting the talent in the southern schools.

See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting. Steelers - ( New Window )


Interesting read. Noted this:

"Sure, some will look at those names and scream nepotism. Thereís one of the Rooneyís, Colbert (Kevinís son), and Butler, son of Jack Butler, former Steeler and longtime BLESTO scout. But thereís a family component most teams donít have either."

A la Mara and Boisture. I guess nepotism can work if the family members are competent!
It is going to be  
English Alaister : 12/5/2019 12:17 pm : link
enormously interesting to see what Tepper achieves. I have no idea how this will play out but I'm excited to see what an analytics approach delivers.
RE: RE: On the Pittsburgh question...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14704046 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
In comment 14704004 bw in dc said:


Quote:


and I attempted to answer that yesterday, they have a history of excellent scouting. They were tremendous in the '70s at harvesting the talent in the southern schools.

See the link about the stability in the front office with personnel and scouting. Steelers - ( New Window )



Interesting read. Noted this:

"Sure, some will look at those names and scream nepotism. Thereís one of the Rooneyís, Colbert (Kevinís son), and Butler, son of Jack Butler, former Steeler and longtime BLESTO scout. But thereís a family component most teams donít have either."

A la Mara and Boisture. I guess nepotism can work if the family members are competent!


That indeed jumps out. Dan Rooney Jr is a terrific director of player personnel.

Let's be honest -that's a real flagship franchise. Their history of winning over and over and over again, decade after decade, and doing it under any economic system is phenomenal.

The Steeler brand is one word - winning. And they take that very seriously and have built a tremendous culture and infrastructure to sustain it.

It's possible that the same people  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 12:24 pm : link
Ranting about 'its a whole new game' are the same ones who fell for 'basketball on grass' and not running?

Which is how we got to where we are? Loosing ?

For sure, numbers count.

But idiots with numbers are still idiots.

Our problems are much more fundamental than weather or not we work probability.

In fact, some see probabilistic trends through common sense.
I think it was a smart move by Tepper  
Metnut : 12/5/2019 12:30 pm : link
Panthers only had 3 winning seasons in the past 9 years and the team was trending downward. It's not clear whether Newton will ever return at close to full strength and Rivera benefit from all-pro play by Newton in the few winning seasons Carolina had under Rivera.


Chuck Noll  
Rjanyg : 12/5/2019 12:35 pm : link
Before he showed up the Steelers were one of the worst teams in the NFL. They were physical and played hard but didnít win. Noll changed that and the teams that were built were deep. 4 Super Bowls in the 70ís. All by drafting the right players, developing them, knowing what identity you want to have as an organization.

That is the model the Steelers continue to follow. Great drafting, knowing your identity and developing those players.

The problem with NYG is they draft horrible, let most of their players walk, and overspend on free agents.

It is bad football operations to continue to do that.

This offseason will be a huge off season, I think a few free agents will be brought in but they will hopefully be too level second contract guys....quality players. Dupree, Thompson and Simmons. Fix the defense.

Draft Chase Young.
Tepper  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/5/2019 12:41 pm : link
was probably right moving on. Nine years is a long time. Rivera seems like a solid coach but has not shown to date that is so elite that you have to keep imo.

The Steelers have been really good at drafting for a very long time. I think the common theme with its coaches is they are great leaders with Knoll more known as a superior x and o guy imo. All three have worked out with great success but let's take a look at the similarities:

Knoll: The Steel Curtain, outstanding running game and OL. QB capable of big play and showing up in big games.

Cowher: Great front 7 most years. Routinely ranked as Top 3 defense. Great running game and balanced offense.

Tomlin: Average to Very good defense. However, they became much more of a passing team but still could run with a good/very good OL.

So to me it is quite clear why the Steelers sustained success. Now look at the Giants in a fairly close timeframe.

Parcells: Dominant front 7, outstanding OL and running game and big play QB on play action.

Reeves/Fassel: Little better than average OL play and running game. Good to very good defense. Collins offered big play but not big game stature.

Coughlin: 2004-2012: Very good/outstanding OL. Great running game and big play QB who showed up in big game. Very good defense, great front 4.


McAd, Shurm, TC2013-19: Horrible OL, inability to run the ball, poor defense. It's all because of no analytics are being used!

All this talk of analytics is meaningless until the real issue is addressed.... Talent deficiencies in areas that have stood the test of time of being the staple to winning teams imo.

Now with a talented team with good coaching.....yes they should be part of the overall operation.

Im leaning towards all defense draft  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 12:47 pm : link
On offense show improvement in OL method and outcomes and next draft you get all the fancy toys in draft 2021.
Rivera was there 9 years  
Mike from Ohio : 12/5/2019 12:49 pm : link
He never won a Superbowl, and had more losing seasons than he did winning seasons. I am not sure why some people are questioning why Rivera was fired by a new owner. He was on shaky ground that he created.

Rivera is certainly no Shurmur, but he is no Belichik either. He is a guy who coached for 9 years and have a very mixed bag of results. Ultimately every coach is hired to eventually win a Superbowl, and the Panthers were not trending that way at all.

You can like Rivera for coach of the Giants all you want. Everyone has their preferred higher. But let's admit what he is up until this point- an average NFL coach.
An interesting analytics story from another sport just occurred to me  
cosmicj : 12/5/2019 12:53 pm : link
In the early 90s, AC Milan began investing heavily in tech and analytics. The dept, which seems to have been staffed by very smart people, noticed that players who ran a certain way had soccer careers that often lasted until their late 30s. Soccer players usually trail off in their early 30s. AC Milan was able to use that proprietary insight to start buying players in their early 30s from other teams who had this characteristic set of running style traits, on the cheap. These other teams assumed that just because these players were entering the age where soccer abilities generally declined, they would, too. Wrong! AC Milan had a very successful decade as they executed on the analytics insight.

The flip side of this is that other clubs started to catch on. Proprietary intellectual information is difficult to keep confidential. So AC Milan gradually lost itís competitive edge as the insight seeped out, and they are now a solid ďBĒ ranked club, no longer a European championship contender.

Analytics insights into down and distance and clock management are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that endeavor.

One opportunity that comes to mind is determining which players have the body to function within the violence of pro football and which canít function consistently due to continuous injuries. Right now, the scouting around this question is hit or miss, based on past experience. It would be a big competitive advantage for any NFL club to gain more insight into what physical characteristics make a given player more likely to stay healthy and on the field. If Iíve had this thought, Iím sure professionals in NFL front offices have had it and are researching it. Are the Giants? Or should I say is the lone Giants quant guy getting insights into this and influencing the scouting?
.  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 12:53 pm : link
Draft 2020

(ILBx2, FSx2, Edge, NT)

Draft 2021 two versions:

"A" didn't fix OL with free agents and existing roster - draft OL early.

"B" DID fix it. Draft WR,RB,WR, TE etc.

As coach and GM that ought to motivate you for fixing the line without drafting it. To go for outcome "b".
Family owned businesses  
Bill in UT : 12/5/2019 12:59 pm : link
Maybe the Rooneys are smarter/better businesspeople than the Mara's? Not all families are the same. And usually by the 3rd generation, most family frun businesses have gone to shit. Without the NFL structure, how many franchises would have goneout of business based on their own merits?
Group Therapy Time!  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 1:04 pm : link
😉😮🤸🤸
rivera got closer than  
Gordo : 12/5/2019 1:04 pm : link
Coughlin ever did with Jax. The Giants hired coughlin. How did that work out? If we get identical results, I would hire him tomorrow
RE: .  
Jim from Katonah : 12/5/2019 1:07 pm : link
Maybe the difference between the winners and the losers over time might actually be ó and I hate to use the word ó culture based. As in, if you go to Patriots (or Ravens, Steelers etc), you know what Iíd expected of you, there is peer pressure to execute, and you have zero leeway to take shortcuts.

Perfect example was the Pats pulling NíKeal Harry when he allowed the Texans CB to jump a route. At the time that they pulled him, they were incredibly short at WR and certainly could have used a 6í3 220lb guy like Harry. But they pulled him because he fucked up and they donít put up with it.

Contrast that to Saquon repeatedly failing in pass protection, getting blown up by smaller guys and just out and out missing assignments. Do you think that Saquonís performance would fly with Belichick? Parcels? Joe Gibbs?

Thatís culture to me. Itís what separates all-star teams like the Browns from the Steelers, who have Duck Hodges and a bunch of fill-ins winning week after week.

RE: RE: .  
Jim from Katonah : 12/5/2019 1:11 pm : link
Not a Saquon hater, I could have used Baker not hustling, Rosas missing kicks, whatever. Football to me is the ultimate peer pressure/coach pressure game ó though it kind of goes for any organization. I work for one that basically doesnít allow any mistakes, so guess what ... people try really really hard not to make them.
RE: Rivera was there 9 years  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14704107 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
He never won a Superbowl, and had more losing seasons than he did winning seasons. I am not sure why some people are questioning why Rivera was fired by a new owner. He was on shaky ground that he created.

Rivera is certainly no Shurmur, but he is no Belichik either. He is a guy who coached for 9 years and have a very mixed bag of results. Ultimately every coach is hired to eventually win a Superbowl, and the Panthers were not trending that way at all.

You can like Rivera for coach of the Giants all you want. Everyone has their preferred higher. But let's admit what he is up until this point- an average NFL coach.


This is it in a nutshell.

Do we want to strive for a good process and seeking out the right coach, or do we desperately just want to do better than Shurmur...
I love the Tepper move  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 1:20 pm : link
and have seen him operate in prior business dealings. He did not make this change without a whole lot of strategic thinking in the background as to what he wants out of his franchise. It likely has very little to do with Riveraís prior record and is predominately about how Tepper is mapping out his teamís future.

Posters on here want to hire Rivera predominately because he has been more successful than Shurmur.

Do you see the difference?

cosmicj  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 1:22 pm : link
I have a podcast recommendation for you.

Tifo Football Podcast - October 21, 2019

Tifo football (their YouTube channel it's also an invaluable resource) interviewed Nikos Overheul of Statsbomb to talk about how analytics are applied in soccer.

Overheul talks about the various services his company provides, including manager recruitment to for certain goal statements (i.e. we're a midtable club on a shoestring budget looking to avoid relegation - find us a manager that fits that profile). It was a fascinating discussion...one idea I recall was the concept of building squads to specifically win the first 5 or 6 games on the schedule, with the thinking being you can't win a title in September but you can certainly lose it.

Check it out if you get the chance. There was a lot that's applicable to the Giants' current predicament.
I want to hire Rivera because I've followed his career ever since....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:25 pm : link
he was an awesome defensive coordinator for the Chicago Bears, and was a hot candidate for several jobs all the way back then. His was a name that always seemed to surface after Chicago as a top coordinator to become a head coach.
And I think Rivera did a pretty admirable job with his first shot....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:27 pm : link
at it.

It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him

But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.
But let's not turn this into another Rivera debate.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:29 pm : link
That's not the point of the thread.
Here's what I love about Tepper...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 1:32 pm : link
He came out and spoke to the base. Told them why he was making the move and what his plan was. He was fairly detailed and implied this could take time. So he set expectations. The base may not like the move and/or the plan, but you know what the ownership is thinking.

If the buffoons at Jints Central were forward thinking, they'd do the same thing. Fire Shurmur. Make whomever the interim coach. Detail what's going to occur in the off-season to fix this endless mess. And put everyone on notice that a full organization colonoscopy is about to take place...

But that's obviously wishful thinking. Let's just stay nice and steady. Keep rubbing the rabbit's foot, hanging hores shoes, crossing fingers, etc and hope, for the third time, in 10+ years we catch lightening in a bottle...
People were saying the same thing about Dorsey last year  
Vanzetti : 12/5/2019 1:32 pm : link
Browns were innovative in hiring Depo and they were going to use analytics to get a competitive edge

But it hasnít worked out
Your whole last paragraph in the OP  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 1:35 pm : link
is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?

What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
RE: Your whole last paragraph in the OP  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14704168 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?

What is it that you would like to discuss then please?


Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.

Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.

You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.

See the difference?
Terps - thanks for the tip.  
cosmicj : 12/5/2019 1:43 pm : link
Will put that podcast on my list.
RE: Your whole last paragraph in the OP  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14704168 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?

What is it that you would like to discuss then please?


He want us to believe that having 3 out of 9 winning seasons is actually good. So winning at .333 of your seasons coached is akin to a baseball player hitting .333.

And we should be further inspired by the outlier 15-1 season. Of course, that was a complete outlier - for both the team and the key player (Newton) - and similar success has been sniffed sense.

But let's hire Rivera because our standards have sunk so low. Mediocre is still a step up...right?
RE: And I think Rivera did a pretty admirable job with his first shot....  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 1:46 pm : link
In comment 14704155 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
at it.

It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him

But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.

If you could have any coach in the world, you'd choose Rivera?

I think you just happen to be really good at two things: 1) reading the tea leaves with regard to what the Giants are likely to do, and 2) convincing yourself that it's exactly what you wanted Santa to bring you for Christmas all along.
Tepper is trying to win  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 1:46 pm : link
Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But he's going to have a plan, and he's going to hire someone to implement that plan.

What's the Giants' plan? I've been asking that question here for years and never gotten an answer.
RE: RE: And I think Rivera did a pretty admirable job with his first shot....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:46 pm : link
In comment 14704185 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14704155 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


at it.

It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him

But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.


If you could have any coach in the world, you'd choose Rivera?

I think you just happen to be really good at two things: 1) reading the tea leaves with regard to what the Giants are likely to do, and 2) convincing yourself that it's exactly what you wanted Santa to bring you for Christmas all along.


Any coach in the world? No

Of the coaches that I know to be available right now? Yes.
Iíd take  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 1:46 pm : link
What Tepper did vs Jerry Jones firing Garrett in the media without actually doing it in person.
Tepper is the next Dan Snyder type over-involved owner  
giantsFC : 12/5/2019 1:48 pm : link
heard it here first.

He has done nothing to improve the organization so far and that disappoints me
And for all this talk...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 1:52 pm : link
about Rivera being some defensive guru, here is where the Rivera Ds were on a points allowed basis over his 9 seasons:

2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th

Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.

So what's really to like?
You guys have convinced me. Rivera is a loser.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:53 pm : link
Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.
RE: You guys have convinced me. Rivera is a loser.  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14704205 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.


I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
RE: And for all this talk...  
giants#1 : 12/5/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14704199 bw in dc said:
Quote:
about Rivera being some defensive guru, here is where the Rivera Ds were on a points allowed basis over his 9 seasons:

2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th

Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.

So what's really to like?


His Ds with the Bears/Chargers were very good (IIRC a couple years at #1). That's where his rep for strong Ds comes from.
The Giants ďplanĒ is to hope Eli Manning and the rest of the team  
cosmicj : 12/5/2019 1:55 pm : link
Get hot in January and win a title. Thatís out the window now.

Whatís Maraís plan? Most disturbing is that I think he doesnít even knows how to start formulating a plan. Tepper can draw on a wealth of experience. Mara knows... the Giants.

Insular - and hence ignorant.
RE: RE: You guys have convinced me. Rivera is a loser.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14704206 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14704205 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.



I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.


There is nobody that could convince you, or a handful of others of that. Nobody with any connection whatsoever to Dave Gettleman, Accorsi or the Giants in any way is acceptable. This eliminates quite a few candidates probably, but those are your parameters and you're sticking to them.
RE: RE: Your whole last paragraph in the OP  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14704173 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14704168 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?

What is it that you would like to discuss then please?



Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.

Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.

You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.

See the difference?


I already commented about Tepper and what I thought about his approach. Please tell me its okay to discuss intrinsically linked topics in one of your threads please?

They are not intrinsically linked.  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 2:03 pm : link
There was not one mention of the Giants, or Mara, or Gettleman for that matter anywhere in my threadstart.

In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.

"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."

I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
RE: RE: And for all this talk...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14704208 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704199 bw in dc said:


Quote:


about Rivera being some defensive guru, here is where the Rivera Ds were on a points allowed basis over his 9 seasons:

2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th

Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.

So what's really to like?



His Ds with the Bears/Chargers were very good (IIRC a couple years at #1). That's where his rep for strong Ds comes from.


His DC stint with the Bears from '04 to '06 was very good - true. His DC stint with the Chargers from '08 to '10 was pretty good.

But he hasn't been short of defensive talent in Carolina - true? Something has slipped...
RE: RE: RE: Your whole last paragraph in the OP  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14704214 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14704173 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14704168 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?

What is it that you would like to discuss then please?



Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.

Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.

You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.

See the difference?



I already commented about Tepper and what I thought about his approach. Please tell me its okay to discuss intrinsically linked topics in one of your threads please?

Nope, not allowed. Kind of like the last thread where you had to agree to be ok with Gettleman staying and Rivera being hired in order to be in favor of Chase Young, and if you didn't want Rivera or Gettleman, you were implicitly opposed to drafting Young.
RE: You guys have convinced me. Rivera is a loser.  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14704205 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.


He's not a loser but you act like he is manna from heaven sitting here on Dec 5th.

The Giants need a plan and a process...not a knee-jerk reaction
RE: RE: RE: You guys have convinced me. Rivera is a loser.  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14704213 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14704206 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14704205 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.



I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.



There is nobody that could convince you, or a handful of others of that. Nobody with any connection whatsoever to Dave Gettleman, Accorsi or the Giants in any way is acceptable. This eliminates quite a few candidates probably, but those are your parameters and you're sticking to them.


That's because Accorsi still thinks it's 1981, and Dave Gettleman sucks at his job.

How much more proof do you need, man? How many games do we have to lose?
RE: They are not intrinsically linked.  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14704221 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There was not one mention of the Giants, or Mara, or Gettleman for that matter anywhere in my threadstart.

In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.

"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."

I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.


What the hell are you talking about?

You really are a kook sometimes...
Well, the gangs all here....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 2:11 pm : link
I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.
RE: They are not intrinsically linked.  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14704221 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
There was not one mention of the Giants, or Mara, or Gettleman for that matter anywhere in my threadstart.

In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.

"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."

I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.

The quote you're using in your OP is absolutely intrinsically linked to Tepper terminating Rivera. How could you argue otherwise?

And more importantly, would you be starting this thread if it wasn't linked to the object of your affection as the next HC?

You can spin it however you want, but at least be honest with yourself - there zero chance this whole thing is even on your radar if you didn't have a massive erection for Rivera to succeed Shurmur.
RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 2:19 pm : link
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.


Temper tantrum - BBI style...

This has nothing to do with not wanting to hire  
Mike from Ohio : 12/5/2019 2:20 pm : link
a guy with ties to Gettleman or the Giants. BB has extensive ties to the Giants, and if he was available I am pretty sure 100% of BBI would be on board with hiring him It has to do with hiring someone *BECAUSE* of those ties.

Some like Rivera and that's fine. But he has certainly not accomplished enough to be a clear favorite for the position, nor to not have many want to look elsewhere.

I don't know why that is difficult to understand.
Britt  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 2:21 pm : link
I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
I'm sincerely trying to find reasons...  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 2:22 pm : link
to like and support a potential Rivera candidacy. But the more I pull back the covers, the less interesting he becomes...

I guess he has a cool nickname - Riverboat Ron. Oh, and per FMiC, he and Gettleman apparently worked well together...
Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:23 pm : link
7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.
RE: Britt  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?


As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017

RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:27 pm : link
In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.

You're right. When you go 7-8-1 AND win your division, it means you were below .500 despite playing in a shitty division. When you go 7-8-1 and miss the playoffs, you had to have faced at least one decent division rival.

Very good point, although probably not the one you intended.
RE: RE: Britt  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14704256 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?



As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017

Well, whenever we're ready to find a GM who can do better than that and not be an absolute liability in free agency, maybe we can pull out of the tailspin. Until then, all Mara has done is order new nameplates and business cards for the same stale Accorsi regime.
Just to expand on that  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:31 pm : link
2012 - Less than nothing out of that draft
2013 - Nothing.
2014 - Beckham, Richburg, Kennard. Should have kept Kennard. Could not pay Richburg based on his play.
2015 - 1 year of Landon Collins
2016 - Shepard, always hurt
2017 - Engram, always hurt

2018 - doesn't look spectacular, but it looks a hell of a lot better than previous years.

2019 - Too early to tell, but gotta figure a few good players come out of it, including a franchise QB
RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.


What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.

I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.

If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.

While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"

That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
RE: RE: Britt  
hitdog42 : 12/5/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14704256 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?



As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017


and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-
RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
christian : 12/5/2019 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.


Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.

It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
Some fans want to always jump back to  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 2:45 pm : link
A deterministic view.

Maybe beacause the draft is fun or for whatever personal reasons, people like determinism. Folks jump right from blame the higher ups to deterministic views on players without looking at how we got here.

But it's more and more obvious than ever that player outcomes ALSO depend on situation, scheme , training, coaching AS WELL as (aptitude and physicality and some innate predetermined characteristics.)

Right now it's OL , run game and maybe D backs.

How you choose unit and assistant coaches might be open to review.
RE: RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:49 pm : link
In comment 14704264 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.



What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.

I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.

If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.

While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"

That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.


I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.

I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.

Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
To quote the great John Boyd  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/5/2019 2:50 pm : link
People. Ideas. Technology. In that order.
The Patriots have the largest analytics department in the NFL  
AdamBrag : 12/5/2019 2:51 pm : link
And they've been pretty successful.

Trying to keep analytics out of football is like trying to keep computers out of the workplace. Sure, it's possible to operate without computers and there are nuances that humans will only catch, but if all your competitors are using computers, you are in trouble if you are not.
RE: RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14704272 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.



Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.

It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
yeah there is definitely a pattern of Iím taking my ball and going home when things donít turn out as expected
RE: RE: RE: Britt  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14704267 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704256 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.

How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?



As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017




and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-


Name them.

The only players you could possibly be talking about are:

Eli Apple
Darian Thompson
Ereck Flowers
Landon Collins
Odell Beckham Jr
Weston Richburg
Devon Kennard
Justin Pugh

Which of those players are lighting it up with their new teams?
Coach red wins again  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 2:52 pm : link
With another great quote.

Bingo! I agree!
Giants in 07  
Go Terps : 12/5/2019 2:54 pm : link
Gettleman's performance, not patience, is where we disagree. If we get competent people in here I'm perfectly willing to give them a couple years.

But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.

Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?
RE: RE: RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
rsjem1979 : 12/5/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14704282 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:

I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.

Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.


If Gettleman evaluated the team and determined that their talent level wouldn't allow them to compete, why did he make moves that (even optimistically) could only benefit the Giants in the short term?

Revisionist history about "rebuilding" aside, every move Gettleman made in the Spring and Summer of 2018 was made with the 2018 season in mind.

Gettleman either thought the Giants were a few moves away from being a contender, or lied about it to convince Mara to hire him. Either way, it's bad.
RE: RE: RE: Very foolish in my opinion to say that  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14704282 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14704264 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:


7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.

I don't think Terps really believes that.



What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.

I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.

If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.

While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"

That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.



I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.

I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.

Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.

When you sign a 27 year old FA to a multi-year K with a $5M AAV and almost 40% of the contract guaranteed, that's more than a stopgap measure. Omameh was a shitty signing. To rationalize it as an attempted stopgap is revisionist history, IMO. He was signed to be a part of the solution going forward and was an abject failure.
RE: RE: Well, the gangs all here....  
Britt in VA : 12/5/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14704272 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14704238 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.



Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.

It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.


Sometimes you can feel where it's going. It started to be about 3-5 posters, the same posters I usually go around with, and it usually ends up the same spot. It's not that I'm uncomfortable, it's that I don't feel like going down the same road again.

I truly started this thread to explore the David Tepper quote, and while I want Ron Rivera as the next coach of the Giants, I did not care to discuss Ron Rivera in any capacity other than his role in why Tepper made the decision he did, and where he was going, and what the intrinsic risks are/were with the move. Also, to have a platform for everybody to discuss this marriage of old school toughness and new school metrics, minus the angst associated with being a Giants fan right now, and whether we should or shouldn't be moving that direction. Essentially, a tool for everybody to discuss the pros and cons of the philosophy independently of what you want for the Giants.

I disagree that this is intrinsically related to the Giants, and I was careful not to word it that way when I wrote the op.
RE: Giants in 07  
Giants in 07 : 12/5/2019 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14704291 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Gettleman's performance, not patience, is where we disagree. If we get competent people in here I'm perfectly willing to give them a couple years.

But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.

Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?


Fair enough. There certainly is a lot to criticize.
Same for Gatorade Dunk's post as well. I see your point.
Let's illuminate coach reds great quote.  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 3:05 pm : link
1. People. The right people for a particular project have good ideas AND can listen to other good people in gaining those ...and can tell the difference.

So #1 covers #2, the ideas.

The technology must serve those ideas keeping in mind that idea #1 is to be humble enough to talk within the group and to keep learning.

Ownership by definition is in, BUT things can get dicey if they don't understand some of the concepts of the right people OR are unwilling or una l to listen, which is a Hallmark of the right people:

To have real conversations, not the old "oh, I'm sorry, what was that in the window? , " Wait...sorry, what....I just got a text".. "what was that you just said? ... " " What did he just say? "

Or "whatever, let's just do what we want"

Let's not.  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/5/2019 3:07 pm : link
Dennny's posts are lame regardless of which handle he's using.
I donít have the time to do it now..  
Sean : 12/5/2019 3:11 pm : link
But, Iíd be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.

Iíd bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh weíre hired prior to 10 years back.

Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.
It's a perfect quote, reds quote  
idiotsavant : 12/5/2019 3:13 pm : link
It's hard today to avoid conflating nominal success with real leadership.

Often little to do with each other , those qualities.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/5/2019 3:20 pm : link
Tepper's quote sounds great, but the execution is what matters. A theoretical 'new guy' always sounds better than what you have. Rivera has his pluses and minuses. I see why people like him.

The NFL is obviously a tremendously competitive environment. To me, the teams that have cracked the code in terms of developing consistently competitive franchises are the Ravens/Pats/Steelers. Maybe the Saints, Seahawks, and Chiefs as well (I'm a big Reid fan).

I'm interested in seeing how Tepper's plan develops.
RE: ....  
Sean : 12/5/2019 3:28 pm : link
In comment 14704318 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Tepper's quote sounds great, but the execution is what matters. A theoretical 'new guy' always sounds better than what you have. Rivera has his pluses and minuses. I see why people like him.

The NFL is obviously a tremendously competitive environment. To me, the teams that have cracked the code in terms of developing consistently competitive franchises are the Ravens/Pats/Steelers. Maybe the Saints, Seahawks, and Chiefs as well (I'm a big Reid fan).

I'm interested in seeing how Tepper's plan develops.


Well said.
The problem I have with the premise of the OP  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 4:14 pm : link
is that is seems like its this either/or scenario.

Either old school toughness OR use of advance technology and analytics.

Why can't it be both?

I don't think any advocate of technology and analytics in football is suggesting to do away with old school toughness.

I am separating Analytics an Technology for a reason. Analytics is not technology. Its an approach and a process. It is usually supported by technology. But there are many more uses of technology even beyond supporting analytics.

The Analytics approach is about ideas and testing those ideas. So you still need people with ideas. The technology gives you the ability to test a much broader range of ideas. It provides the opportunity to test if conventional wisdom produces the best results, or are there other methods that can consistently show better results. The technology allows you to crunch the data much faster and thus test more ideas. What you need are people who are out of the box thinkers. In the end, its all just an augmentation process to provide deeper insight and hopefully guide improved decision making.

Other uses of technology:

VR simulators can give players the opportunity to get more reps. The coaches and tech can program the simulations to teach the player the desired techniques and things to see in live action.

Video analysis of players in practice. Coaches can't see everything. Parameters can be coded into a system that validates if players are doing what they need to do to optimize performance.

Interactive playbooks for laptops or tablets that go beyond the simple diagram, they can show graphics how plays should unfold against various opposing scenarios.

And I haven't even gotten into technology for health issues. Detailed measurements of strength and burst (quick twitch) of specific muscles and joints. Using this to help players rehab, or even designing strength and conditioning programs, also player evaluation for FA and draft, etc.

We can go on forever. There are literally thousands of ways tech can help. And its not just computers, although the computers always help with the math and analysis. Again, you need out of the box thinkers to come up with all the ideas and ways the tach can help. Figure out the one that are truly impactful and push those things to the limits. Drop the ones that don't make as much of a difference. Its going to be an evolutionary process. So the longer you wait to get started, the farther behind the evolutionary ladder you are...

You can do all this and STILL maintain old school toughness in your coaches, but give them tools that make what they want to get more effective. I think a lot of this is more and more critical with the CBAs and the fact that proactive time is more and more limited.
To complete my post above  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 4:21 pm : link
If you want an old school smash mouth, snot knocking football team. Then design you analytics and technologies to maximize the returns for that approach.

If that's what you want, let the technology help you find those players and avoid the ones that are more finesse. Let your strength and conditioning build those players to meet the demands. Give the players the learning tools to execute that approach...

It's not an either/or proposition.
RE: I donít have the time to do it now..  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14704309 Sean said:
Quote:
But, Iíd be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.

Iíd bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh weíre hired prior to 10 years back.

Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.


I think the goal should be to do better than Rivera and hit a HR. I know BB is not walking through the doors of Jints Central while he's still alive - that ship has sailed - but I think with the proper due diligence we could strike gold. Which is why Shurmur should by fired as soon as possible to begin the search. That is why Tepper's move to fire Rivera is smart because he can get right into that evaluation.

To be clear, I don't mind Rivera being in the mix. But he's shouldn't be in the high valued target zone. Too many question marks in his resume...

And, frankly, finding the right coach only solves part of the problem. The larger problem is in management/scouting.
McL  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 4:56 pm : link
Exactly. There was a good article about LSU strength and conditycoach adopting a new technology called Perch tracking how fast players were moving barbells and this has benefited their strength and injury prevention (velocity based training). They are kicking ass this season. Old school on the field; new technology behind the scenes
RE: McL  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14704418 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Exactly. There was a good article about LSU strength and conditycoach adopting a new technology called Perch tracking how fast players were moving barbells and this has benefited their strength and injury prevention (velocity based training). They are kicking ass this season. Old school on the field; new technology behind the scenes


That's more Joe Brady and his wizardry getting Burrow to look like Joe Montana... ;)
RE: RE: I donít have the time to do it now..  
Jimmy Googs : 12/5/2019 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14704391 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14704309 Sean said:


Quote:


But, Iíd be interested to see the results of every head coach hired in the last 10 years. What was their record, how many years were they employed, playoff appearances, etc.

Iíd bet those results are pretty bad. Reid, McVay & Pederson would be the best hires off the top of my head. Belichick, Payton & Harbaugh weíre hired prior to 10 years back.

Point being, you can do a lot worse than Rivera.



I think the goal should be to do better than Rivera and hit a HR. I know BB is not walking through the doors of Jints Central while he's still alive - that ship has sailed - but I think with the proper due diligence we could strike gold. Which is why Shurmur should by fired as soon as possible to begin the search. That is why Tepper's move to fire Rivera is smart because he can get right into that evaluation.

To be clear, I don't mind Rivera being in the mix. But he's shouldn't be in the high valued target zone. Too many question marks in his resume...

And, frankly, finding the right coach only solves part of the problem. The larger problem is in management/scouting.


I agree with above thoughts as well bw. Shurmur is a bit a trainwreck but way too much of BBI blame lately has been funneling to him...clearly needs to be spread around much more broadly
I got caught up too.  
Thegratefulhead : 12/5/2019 5:31 pm : link
DG did and said some things I liked.

Ignore all that shit.

10-34 does not work for me.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Results, that is all I really care about.

Fucking win or GTFO.

It sucks to suck.
bah auto-correct...  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 5:42 pm : link
proactive should have been practice in my post above...

the CBAs and the fact that practice time is more and more limited.
I keep coming back to the Giants history.  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/5/2019 5:59 pm : link
One championship squad I saw had numerous, game changing playmakers:

'86 team:
LT
BANKS
CARSON
BAVARO
SIMMS
MORRIS

2007 TEAM
MANNING
PLAX
STRAHAN
TUCK
WEBSTER
ROBBINS
SNEE

Who the fuck does this team have that can sniff the jocks of those guys?

Barkley, and that's it for now until some of the young defenders step up.

Peppers might ascend to that level, Williams and Lawrence also, maybe Hernandez becomes another Snee. Sheppard is very good when healthy, but his long term health is very much in question. Engram has shown only glimpses.

This team is a long way off in personnel and that's neither Gettleman's nor Shurmur's fault.
He  
uther99 : 12/5/2019 8:14 pm : link
Gonna fail for a while
Iíll say this about Rivera..  
Sean : 12/5/2019 8:26 pm : link
First, I think the best thing for the franchise right now would be to hire a young HC (someone like Matt Rhule) & then hire a GM who Rhule would work well with & have a shared vision for the team. Preferably, the GM would also be young & you give both plenty of time to see the plan through. This is how you hopefully get back to the Steelers structure of sustainability.

However, I know there is a good chance that wonít happen. Gettleman took on massive dead cap money this year & drafted Daniel Jones at #6 last April. Changing course 9 months later is unlikely.

I believe a huge part of our problem the last 6 years has been a lack of harmony between GM & HC. I donít think Reese & Coughlin were on the same page. It never made sense to me that Shurmur was the guy after hearing Gettleman describe defensive minded head coaches. Gettleman doesnít feel like a offensive specialist HC type GM. I donít think itís a good fit. I believe Gettleman wanted Patricia.

I do think Gettleman-Rivera would fit the best in terms of GM/HC philosophy, the best in a long term with this franchise. If Gettleman will be retained which I think is probably the case, I think pairing Rivera with him makes the most sense.

BW who doesn't have question marks on their resume and  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/5/2019 8:32 pm : link
what question marks do you think Rivera has?
Yeah that strategy works great until..  
morrison40 : 12/5/2019 9:17 pm : link
You get punched in the mouth !
RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 9:22 pm : link
In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:
Quote:
You get punched in the mouth !

I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?
This Tepper love  
uther99 : 12/5/2019 10:02 pm : link
is out of control. He makes some basic comments, many of which have been made on this site for years. Self scout, tough football, use analytics. Big fcking deal. Who is the QB? Not Cam and not Allen. So no QB, picking middle of the pack 2020. You all would buy piss if he called it lemonade
RE: BW who doesn't have question marks on their resume and  
bw in dc : 12/5/2019 10:08 pm : link
In comment 14704562 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
what question marks do you think Rivera has?


Only having 3 out of 9 winning seasons in Carolina jumps out. While Rivera's strength is D, in those 9 seasons Carolina only finished inside the top third in the league in 3X in PPG allowed. And he certainly wasn't short on talent on that side of the ball.

As I said earlier, I think we can throw Rivera into the mix as a possible HC candidate. That's fine. But let's fire Shurmur now and begin a real deep dive to find THE best candidates. And not settle for someone who is slightly above average.
RE: I keep coming back to the Giants history.  
Les in TO : 12/5/2019 10:11 pm : link
In comment 14704455 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
One championship squad I saw had numerous, game changing playmakers:

'86 team:
LT
BANKS
CARSON
BAVARO
SIMMS
MORRIS

2007 TEAM
MANNING
PLAX
STRAHAN
TUCK
WEBSTER
ROBBINS
SNEE

Who the fuck does this team have that can sniff the jocks of those guys?

Barkley, and that's it for now until some of the young defenders step up.

Peppers might ascend to that level, Williams and Lawrence also, maybe Hernandez becomes another Snee. Sheppard is very good when healthy, but his long term health is very much in question. Engram has shown only glimpses.

This team is a long way off in personnel and that's neither Gettleman's nor Shurmur's fault.
the 2007 team had rookies and free agents who made a big impact - Ross Bradshaw DeOssie Johnson Smith Boss Madison McQuarters Mitchell

Gettlemans free agents trades and drafts in that time frame have yielded pitiful results. In two years the team is at best the same talent wise as when he took over after 2017.
I've dealt with Appaloosa: Highest confidence in Tepper  
V.I.G. : 12/5/2019 11:26 pm : link
I never dealt with Tepper directly - but plenty of experience with his team. I'll say this. Tepper's team was as solid as they come. Here are my takeaways:

They were always super prepared. They always asked the tough questions, never settled for lazy answers. All views were backed up with facts. Where facts were lacking, and assumptions necessary - they were clearly stated. They were very comfortable with uncertainty - plenty of scenario planning for different outcome branches.

When Tepper says he wants toughness and analytics - he's talking about himself. His guys had their shit together because they needed to defend their investment thesis to Tepper and their colleagues. ACCOUNTABILITY>

Tepper was by no means an expert on every one of their investments. BUT HE KNEW IF HIS GUYS KNEW THEIR SHIT. He won't be Snyder - he won't be the know it all. BUT he will demand that every decision made by his new staff is not only the best possible decision - but each decision fits within a cohesive well thought out strategy.
RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
V.I.G. : 12/5/2019 11:27 pm : link
In comment 14704630 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:


Quote:


You get punched in the mouth !


I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?

Mike Tyson - look it up
RE: RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
.McL. : 12/5/2019 11:33 pm : link
In comment 14704760 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14704630 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:


Quote:


You get punched in the mouth !


I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?


Mike Tyson - look it up

Yeah, ok, I remember Tyson saying that...
So what strategy was morrison referring to?
RE: I've dealt with Appaloosa: Highest confidence in Tepper  
BrettNYG10 : 12/5/2019 11:34 pm : link
In comment 14704759 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
I never dealt with Tepper directly - but plenty of experience with his team. I'll say this. Tepper's team was as solid as they come. Here are my takeaways:

They were always super prepared. They always asked the tough questions, never settled for lazy answers. All views were backed up with facts. Where facts were lacking, and assumptions necessary - they were clearly stated. They were very comfortable with uncertainty - plenty of scenario planning for different outcome branches.

When Tepper says he wants toughness and analytics - he's talking about himself. His guys had their shit together because they needed to defend their investment thesis to Tepper and their colleagues. ACCOUNTABILITY>

Tepper was by no means an expert on every one of their investments. BUT HE KNEW IF HIS GUYS KNEW THEIR SHIT. He won't be Snyder - he won't be the know it all. BUT he will demand that every decision made by his new staff is not only the best possible decision - but each decision fits within a cohesive well thought out strategy.


I'd be curious on if you could elaborate on your dealings with them?

I can understand, if not.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
ron mexico : 12/6/2019 7:27 am : link
In comment 14704760 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14704630 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14704618 morrison40 said:


Quote:


You get punched in the mouth !


I don't think anybody understands your comment. Seems out of context.

What strategy? Who is getting punched in the mouth?


Mike Tyson - look it up


Co opted by Strahan.

If anyone is getting punched in the mouth and unable to execute their plan itís Gettleman
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah that strategy works great until..  
V.I.G. : 12/6/2019 9:26 am : link
In comment 14704824 ron mexico said:
Quote:
If anyone is getting punched in the mouth and unable to execute their plan itís Gettleman
to butcher this quote even further - DG keeps punching himself
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