| "We are going to take a comprehensive and thorough review of our football operation to make sure we are structured for long-term, sustained success,'' Tepper said. "Our vision is to find the right mix of old-school discipline and toughness with modern and innovative processes. |
It's a good quote, and to be honest, an intriguing approach. It seems to be all the rage right now and I do applaud David Tepper for having the
conviction to make the unprecedented move of firing a coach like Rivera mid season to start the process right now, and not dragging his feet.
However, I have a combination of issues and questions about it, that I thought instead of spreading the conversation out over several threads, we could make a discussion that is a catch all.
I'll start with my questions regarding the quote.
1. Tepper wants an approach where old school toughness meets modern processes.
What does that look like? We have seen a couple of teams seemingly move towards this and have success in recent years, namely the Eagles and their last run, but do we have any proven example of sustained success using this model? The Eagles seem to be regressing to the mean right now. What does sustained success look like with this model, and how do we know that this perfect mixture is responsible for any given team's success? How do we know it wasn't just the stars aligning? For instance, the metrics helped the Eagles find Carson Wentz, but it was Nick Foles who won the Superbowl. Just one instance, but it makes me wonder.
2. It seems to me that the perennial playoff teams, the ones that seem to be in the playoffs year in, and year out, are the same perennial playoff teams that were doing it before the analytics craze. On that note, there was a thread yesterday where Sean asked a great question about the Steelers success, and why their seemingly traditional model of a family oriented business running the team is experiencing more success without having to change the model but so much. Terps posted a really interesting reply to it, I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here.
They've only had 3 head coaches since 1969, and each of those three coaches has won a Super Bowl. Pretty impressive. They've also had the same GM (Kevin Colbert) since 2000.
So we know they value continuity...but how did they arrive at these particular hires? Continuity for continuity's sake isn't necessarily a positive...does anyone think Shurmur would become a perennial divisional contender given 10 years on the job?
So let's take a quick look at their three key leadership figures these past 20 years.
GM Kevin Colbert
- 1984: BLESTO Scout
- '85-'89: Dolphins Scout
- '90-'00: Detroit Lions Pro Scouting Director
- '00-'19 (hired age 43): Pittsburgh Steelers Director of Football Operations, named the franchise's first ever GM in '10
HC Bill Cowher
- '85-'86: Cleveland Browns Special Teams Coach
- 87-88: Browns' Defensive Backs Coach
- 89-91: KC Defensive Coordinator
- 92-06 (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
HC Mike Tomlin
- 95: VMI WR coach
- 96: Memphis grad assistant
- 97: Arkansas State WR coach
- 98: Ark. State DB coach
- 99-00: Cincinnati U DB coach
- 01-05: Tampa Bay DB coach
- 06: Vikings DC
- 07-Present (hired age 35): Steelers head coach
So they hire young guys who haven't held a job at that level in the past, and once they have them they hold onto them.
To be a fly on the wall in their interview process... |
Now I'm not saying that there is no analytical, advanced metrics at play here... I've got to believe most teams use these tools in some form or another, but how much? And why do the Steelers manage to run a family business and still pump out a perinnial contender each year? Why don't they need a consulting firm to hire a coach?
Now, my issues with it:
Football, no matter how modern you make it, will always be a violent, emotional game played by human beings. The analytics may be able to tell you the probabilities of going for it on 4th down, or going for two, etc... But they will NEVER be able to tell you which Odell Beckham (for example) is going to show up every Sunday, or how a player reacts to injury, adversity, any physical/mental variable that can't be quantified.
Finally, Tepper is being praised sight unseen for his bold approach with firing Ron Rivera. I don't know for sure, but it has to be somewhat unprecedented to fire a coach who is 5-7 midseason, 2 games under .500 with 4 to play, and has been hamstrung by missing his starting QB all season. That really is a bold move. But what if Tepper is wrong? Tepper is a business man. Ron Rivera is a football lifer. What qualifies Tepper as a football mind? If Tepper wants to bring in these consultants, shouldn't he leave Ron Rivera in place until these said consultants can give him an evaluation too? What if Tepper is making a big mistake?
Anyways, thought this would make a good discussion. Look at me!
But it hasn’t worked out
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.
Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.
You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.
See the difference?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
He want us to believe that having 3 out of 9 winning seasons is actually good. So winning at .333 of your seasons coached is akin to a baseball player hitting .333.
And we should be further inspired by the outlier 15-1 season. Of course, that was a complete outlier - for both the team and the key player (Newton) - and similar success has been sniffed sense.
But let's hire Rivera because our standards have sunk so low. Mediocre is still a step up...right?
It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him
But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.
If you could have any coach in the world, you'd choose Rivera?
I think you just happen to be really good at two things: 1) reading the tea leaves with regard to what the Giants are likely to do, and 2) convincing yourself that it's exactly what you wanted Santa to bring you for Christmas all along.
What's the Giants' plan? I've been asking that question here for years and never gotten an answer.
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at it.
It really has nothing to do with being better than Shurmur. I want Shurmur fired regardless of who replaces him
But I want Rivera. Those two things are independent of each other.
If you could have any coach in the world, you'd choose Rivera?
I think you just happen to be really good at two things: 1) reading the tea leaves with regard to what the Giants are likely to do, and 2) convincing yourself that it's exactly what you wanted Santa to bring you for Christmas all along.
Any coach in the world? No
Of the coaches that I know to be available right now? Yes.
He has done nothing to improve the organization so far and that disappoints me
2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th
Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.
So what's really to like?
I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th
Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.
So what's really to like?
His Ds with the Bears/Chargers were very good (IIRC a couple years at #1). That's where his rep for strong Ds comes from.
What’s Mara’s plan? Most disturbing is that I think he doesn’t even knows how to start formulating a plan. Tepper can draw on a wealth of experience. Mara knows... the Giants.
Insular - and hence ignorant.
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Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.
I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
There is nobody that could convince you, or a handful of others of that. Nobody with any connection whatsoever to Dave Gettleman, Accorsi or the Giants in any way is acceptable. This eliminates quite a few candidates probably, but those are your parameters and you're sticking to them.
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is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.
Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.
You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.
See the difference?
I already commented about Tepper and what I thought about his approach. Please tell me its okay to discuss intrinsically linked topics in one of your threads please?
In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.
"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."
I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
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about Rivera being some defensive guru, here is where the Rivera Ds were on a points allowed basis over his 9 seasons:
2011: 27th
2012: 18th
2013: 2nd
2014: 21st
2015: 8th
2016: 26th
2017: 11th
2018: 19th
2019: 26th
Two very good years, one decent year, and six years of being near the bottom of the league.
So what's really to like?
His Ds with the Bears/Chargers were very good (IIRC a couple years at #1). That's where his rep for strong Ds comes from.
His DC stint with the Bears from '04 to '06 was very good - true. His DC stint with the Chargers from '08 to '10 was pretty good.
But he hasn't been short of defensive talent in Carolina - true? Something has slipped...
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In comment 14704168 Jimmy Googs said:
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is about questioning Tepper and debating the firing / timing of removing Rivera. And now you don't want to debate what you wrote?
What is it that you would like to discuss then please?
Yes. I talked about the timing of the Rivera firing as it related to Tepper and Carolina.
Nothing to do with Pat Shurmur. Everything to do with the question at hand.
You're the one who made it a comparison between innovative Tepper and the yokel Giants.
See the difference?
I already commented about Tepper and what I thought about his approach. Please tell me its okay to discuss intrinsically linked topics in one of your threads please?
Nope, not allowed. Kind of like the last thread where you had to agree to be ok with Gettleman staying and Rivera being hired in order to be in favor of Chase Young, and if you didn't want Rivera or Gettleman, you were implicitly opposed to drafting Young.
He's not a loser but you act like he is manna from heaven sitting here on Dec 5th.
The Giants need a plan and a process...not a knee-jerk reaction
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In comment 14704205 Britt in VA said:
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Probably out of the league next year, never to be heard from again.
I don't know about that, but you certainly haven't convinced anyone he'd be a good hire.
There is nobody that could convince you, or a handful of others of that. Nobody with any connection whatsoever to Dave Gettleman, Accorsi or the Giants in any way is acceptable. This eliminates quite a few candidates probably, but those are your parameters and you're sticking to them.
That's because Accorsi still thinks it's 1981, and Dave Gettleman sucks at his job.
How much more proof do you need, man? How many games do we have to lose?
In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.
"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."
I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
What the hell are you talking about?
You really are a kook sometimes...
In fact, I was trying to get a good conversation going with a platform to discuss WHY it is better to move on to this supposedly new/innovative model of doing things, while also talking about the pitfalls, risks, and growing pains of doing so.
"ooooh, Teper is a phenominal business man who I just read about on Wikipedia, unlike these dumbass fans who only want to hire Rivera because he's better than Shurmur, yuk yuk... I'm smart, better than Shurmur isn'g good enough for smart guys like me, yuk yuk..."
I'm just not playing your game, Googs. Just stop.
The quote you're using in your OP is absolutely intrinsically linked to Tepper terminating Rivera. How could you argue otherwise?
And more importantly, would you be starting this thread if it wasn't linked to the object of your affection as the next HC?
You can spin it however you want, but at least be honest with yourself - there zero chance this whole thing is even on your radar if you didn't have a massive erection for Rivera to succeed Shurmur.
Temper tantrum - BBI style...
Some like Rivera and that's fine. But he has certainly not accomplished enough to be a clear favorite for the position, nor to not have many want to look elsewhere.
I don't know why that is difficult to understand.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
I guess he has a cool nickname - Riverboat Ron. Oh, and per FMiC, he and Gettleman apparently worked well together...
I don't think Terps really believes that.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
I don't think Terps really believes that.
You're right. When you go 7-8-1 AND win your division, it means you were below .500 despite playing in a shitty division. When you go 7-8-1 and miss the playoffs, you had to have faced at least one decent division rival.
Very good point, although probably not the one you intended.
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I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
Well, whenever we're ready to find a GM who can do better than that and not be an absolute liability in free agency, maybe we can pull out of the tailspin. Until then, all Mara has done is order new nameplates and business cards for the same stale Accorsi regime.
2013 - Nothing.
2014 - Beckham, Richburg, Kennard. Should have kept Kennard. Could not pay Richburg based on his play.
2015 - 1 year of Landon Collins
2016 - Shepard, always hurt
2017 - Engram, always hurt
2018 - doesn't look spectacular, but it looks a hell of a lot better than previous years.
2019 - Too early to tell, but gotta figure a few good players come out of it, including a franchise QB
I don't think Terps really believes that.
What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.
I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.
If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.
While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"
That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
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I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-
Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.
It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
Maybe beacause the draft is fun or for whatever personal reasons, people like determinism. Folks jump right from blame the higher ups to deterministic views on players without looking at how we got here.
But it's more and more obvious than ever that player outcomes ALSO depend on situation, scheme , training, coaching AS WELL as (aptitude and physicality and some innate predetermined characteristics.)
Right now it's OL , run game and maybe D backs.
How you choose unit and assistant coaches might be open to review.
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7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.
I don't think Terps really believes that.
What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.
I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.
If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.
While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"
That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.
I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.
Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
Trying to keep analytics out of football is like trying to keep computers out of the workplace. Sure, it's possible to operate without computers and there are nuances that humans will only catch, but if all your competitors are using computers, you are in trouble if you are not.
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I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.
Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.
It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
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In comment 14704250 Go Terps said:
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I asked an honest question. I'm not attacking you.
How much more proof do you need that the current Giants way of doing things isn't working? How many more games do we have to lose? How many more seasons do we have to throw away?
As many as it takes to overcome the fact that we drafted a grand total of about 3 good players from 2012-2017
and yet a bunch of players are contributing on teams not named the giants--- that could not function under multiple regimes of giants coaches/GMs...
there is an terrible stench with how things are being done-
Name them.
The only players you could possibly be talking about are:
Eli Apple
Darian Thompson
Ereck Flowers
Landon Collins
Odell Beckham Jr
Weston Richburg
Devon Kennard
Justin Pugh
Which of those players are lighting it up with their new teams?
Bingo! I agree!
But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.
Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?
I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.
Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
If Gettleman evaluated the team and determined that their talent level wouldn't allow them to compete, why did he make moves that (even optimistically) could only benefit the Giants in the short term?
Revisionist history about "rebuilding" aside, every move Gettleman made in the Spring and Summer of 2018 was made with the 2018 season in mind.
Gettleman either thought the Giants were a few moves away from being a contender, or lied about it to convince Mara to hire him. Either way, it's bad.
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In comment 14704253 Giants in 07 said:
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7-8-1 Division Title and playoff win is not different than 7-8-1 and not making the playoffs.
I don't think Terps really believes that.
What I believe is that the Panthers probably needed a whole bunch of good luck just to get to the playoffs that year. In most years, 7-8-1 isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to point to that as the tipping point to Rivera being a great hire, I'd suggest your margins might be a little thin.
I can't speak for you, but I'm interested in the Giants establishing a program where 10 wins isn't viewed as a positive outlier. I'm done with Wellington Mara's weak standard of "meaningful games in December"...a standard, by the way, the Giants have been failing to meet.
If I'm Mara I view this front office, coaching staff, and roster as a blank slate. I would not be tied to a single person in the organization besides Steve Tisch.
While this is a sad era for Mara, it's also an opportunity to start from zero and ask the question: "What do I want this team to be?"
That's where Tepper is starting. That's where Mara should start, too.
I don't disagree with you or the thought of cleaning house. I do think that you are being impatient, even though I can't fault a single soul for having no more patience for this team and front office.
I just don't think DG has done that bad of a job. He was given less talent on the roster than an expansion team and I don't think it's possible to turn a roster like that around in two years.
Did he make a few bad signings? Sure, but i see the rationale behind them. Jonathan Stewart was signed to be a veteran presence in a young locker room. Was he overpaid? Sure. But I get the point. Same with Omameh. He was a overpaid stopgap which failed. But he was never a long term answer for the team.
When you sign a 27 year old FA to a multi-year K with a $5M AAV and almost 40% of the contract guaranteed, that's more than a stopgap measure. Omameh was a shitty signing. To rationalize it as an attempted stopgap is revisionist history, IMO. He was signed to be a part of the solution going forward and was an abject failure.
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I don't have the energy to now start to respond to the rapid fire peppering I'm about to receive, so unleash the Giants Way Kraken and let's bury this bad boy.
Britt, you have a pattern of starting threads, and then getting uncomfortable when people counter argue with you.
It's a fun debate, no one is attacking you.
Sometimes you can feel where it's going. It started to be about 3-5 posters, the same posters I usually go around with, and it usually ends up the same spot. It's not that I'm uncomfortable, it's that I don't feel like going down the same road again.
I truly started this thread to explore the David Tepper quote, and while I want Ron Rivera as the next coach of the Giants, I did not care to discuss Ron Rivera in any capacity other than his role in why Tepper made the decision he did, and where he was going, and what the intrinsic risks are/were with the move. Also, to have a platform for everybody to discuss this marriage of old school toughness and new school metrics, minus the angst associated with being a Giants fan right now, and whether we should or shouldn't be moving that direction. Essentially, a tool for everybody to discuss the pros and cons of the philosophy independently of what you want for the Giants.
I disagree that this is intrinsically related to the Giants, and I was careful not to word it that way when I wrote the op.
But Gettleman has been horrendous. The FA signings have obviously flopped, but the draft classes have been overrated on BBI...including the two crown jewels of his drafts, Barkley and Jones. I'm not convinced either of them is a long term part of the solution.
Throw in the abysmal way he handled the Beckham and Eli contract situations, the ridiculous Williams trade, and the general poor culture around the team...just what has Gettleman done well?
Fair enough. There certainly is a lot to criticize.
Same for Gatorade Dunk's post as well. I see your point.
So #1 covers #2, the ideas.
The technology must serve those ideas keeping in mind that idea #1 is to be humble enough to talk within the group and to keep learning.
Ownership by definition is in, BUT things can get dicey if they don't understand some of the concepts of the right people OR are unwilling or una l to listen, which is a Hallmark of the right people:
To have real conversations, not the old "oh, I'm sorry, what was that in the window? , " Wait...sorry, what....I just got a text".. "what was that you just said? ... " " What did he just say? "
Or "whatever, let's just do what we want"