Eli
HOF
His W/L record (which I hate being used in connection with a QB, but it is) is at .500 for the regular season. 116 - 116.
Will being below .500 impact his HOF case? Without a thorough search only Sonny Jurgenson and Joe Namath stand out to me have losing records among HOF QB's, but they're from a different era. Dan Fouts is the closest but he's really a different era too.
So, if he never plays another game after Monday night it may be an important one for Eli's legacy.
Eli's Future
This game may serve as a showcase for Eli to show if he still has gas in the tank. Not sure he's got the desire to be a backup in the NFL, but who knows maybe a team like the Saints goes another year with Brees, but wants a capable backup, Eli has NO connections obviously or maybe he's considered starter material for teams looking for a bridge between current and future QB's. Either way, no better way to showcase yourself than one game. Just ask Matt Flynn.
The Giants
Jones
What would it mean if the offense struggles less under Eli than it has with Jones? Obviously as a rookie QB jones expectations should be less in some regards than a veteran like Eli, but how would it be viewed if the offense thrived with Eli (and his lack of mobility).
I like some of what Jones has shown, there's a lot of positives, but I think some people prematurely proclaimed "mission accomplished" with Jones. He has some work to do and in my mind at least I'm not 100% sold on him being a franchise QB. I've seen glimpses he could be, but he's got to clean some stuff up.
2020 draft
I'm not a root for losses person, but you'd have to be ignorant to not understand that a better draft pick is better for the team. If Eli energizes the team to win a meaningless game, that's probably not the best thing, long-term for the franchise. I want to beat the Eagles, but I really want to beat them with Jones, and have him get some experience with this lately lopsided rivalry.
Anyway, looking forward to Monday, not sure what to expect.
There is little sense in any victories going forward regardless of who the pilot of this team is.
Preferably a nice 28-27 loss would fit the bill IMO
3-13 and hopefully keep a top 2 draft position.
win-win-win
You and I probably believe that, but HOF voters are a strange group.
Have to say I don’t particularly care if Eli gets in the HOF. Individual accolades like that don’t really interest me as much. He won two Super Bowls, that’s what I’ll remember.
Amen. He is going to help turn our defense in what a NY Giant defense should look like.
I see Young and about 3 solid free agent signings for the defensive side of the ball.
How about Bud Dupree, Shaq Thompson and Justin Simmons. That will fix some shit.
Here's what is talked about in terms of QBs:
SBs.
MVPs.
Playoff wins.
Playoff appearances.
Games played.
TDs.
Yards.
I believe he gets in but if one loss keeps him out he doesn’t deserve to get in in the first place.
Likewise. 2-14, and a hugely embarrassing debacle during these last 2 home games. Something to shock Mara out of his stasis.
Well, what QB's fit this bill besides Eli?
What does it mean to the Giants, probably less with Jones not playing, but I suppose Eli could win a game or two they might not have won hurting draft position.
But most of the talk about Eli playing is being overly dramatic in my opinion
Manning is going to the Hall. This is not fucking baseball. He's got the numbers and he's got the titles. There are only two qb's with multiple SB wins not in the Hall- Doug Williams and Jim Plunkett and neither has the career numbers. I haven't looked but they may be the only qb's with multiple NFL championships not in the HOF. Manning is in.
It means nothing for Jones. The Giants have put their eggs in the Jones basket, and that isn't going to change.
Anyone who is concerned about draft position needs to watch the NBA instead. The guys who are on the team now, whether they are any good or not, are putting their bodies on the line and I think it is disrespectful to wish for losses for draft position. Our record will be bad enough where we should be able to get a good player.
This has absolutely no effect on Jones or his future. If Eli looks great and wins its not like we can turn back the clock. Eli is toast, hes done with the Giants. they are moving on with Jones so regardless of how Eli looks he's not going to be a Giant after this season.
The draft is the only thing to worry about now. We are in the drivers seat for the #2 pick and still have a good shot at #1. 1 win in the last 4 will still probably keep us in the #2 spot just as long as that win isnt against Washington
I want 2-14 at this point. I would like to go into the offseason pretty much assured we have a shot to get the best pass rusher in the draft and put this franchise on the road to recovery.
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at some point, a QB with the longevity/compiler stats and rings who was a good but not great player is going to get the snub. Eli could be that player.
Well, what QB's fit this bill besides Eli?
He could be the litmus test. For years, it's been Jim Plunkett.
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Whether he's 116-116 or 116-117 should have absolutely no impact on his HOF credentials.
You and I probably believe that, but HOF voters are a strange group.
They are a strange group and likely a few of the voters will never vote for Eli. 117-116 or 116-117 won't matter to those individuals. Might it sway a voter who is on the fence?
I think Eli is sure-fire HoF'er. He might not get in on the first ballot. It depends on who is eligible when he is. If he retires this year and Brady retires, sorry Eli, but Tommy will get the nod. The voters like to have a well-rounded class and each class will have some "stars" with name recognition. You'll never see a class with just OL/DL/TE. There are many candidates that are worthy, but it isn't sexy to focus on the trenches. QBs, RBs, WRs, DEs are what grab the attention of fans and the voters are aware of that. Leading up to Eli's candidacy, we will see public relations campaign that will sway any voters that are on the fence more so than a single game above/below .500 will.
I hate myself for it but I can't root for Eli to do well and/or win any games because we need as many losses as possible to ensure there are changes (and the draft slot issue).
That said, i do not think it has any bearing on his HOF chances but I do think him playing well could impact beyond this year. If he shows something, I could see another team signing him as a stop gap starter or experienced back up (assuming Eli would do that).
Most important is that we keep losing (and lose badly) to ensure big changes are made to this organization.
Right now I think most view him as an upgrade to Eli but a rookie who has some areas to improve.
If Eli goes out and plays well, I could see a significant portion of the fanbase (and national media) viewing DJ in a much more negative light and opening up the calls to draft a QB in 2020.
If Eli Manning had retired after the 2016 playoff loss in Green Bay, would anyone have said he wasn't a Hall of Famer? He'd passed 48,000 yards, thrown for 320 TDs (including 91 in the previous 3 seasons against 44 INTs) and was already a two-time SB MVP.
If Eli was HOF-worthy in 2016, why wouldn't he be in 2019?
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In comment 14704083 JonC said:
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at some point, a QB with the longevity/compiler stats and rings who was a good but not great player is going to get the snub. Eli could be that player.
Well, what QB's fit this bill besides Eli?
He could be the litmus test. For years, it's been Jim Plunkett.
What stats has Plunkett compiled?
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In comment 14704088 BillKo said:
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In comment 14704083 JonC said:
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at some point, a QB with the longevity/compiler stats and rings who was a good but not great player is going to get the snub. Eli could be that player.
Well, what QB's fit this bill besides Eli?
He could be the litmus test. For years, it's been Jim Plunkett.
What stats has Plunkett compiled?
Eli's stats were compiled in the modern NFL era. That and the fact he's a .500 QB who's been consistently inconsistent in the NFL are his negatives. You have to look at it from the perspective of the writers who aren't going to be NYG fans either.
But people do have a perception that a "losing" quarterback maybe shouldn't be in the HOF.
Here is an article from earlier this year before Jones replaced Eli that didn't take long at all to find:
Manning's career record is an even .500 after latest loss
If Manning were to finish this season with a losing record, his Hall of Fame resume could be in jeopardy. There are only two quarterbacks in the Hall right now that own losing records for their career: Joe Namath and Sonny Jurgensen.
Namath famously won Super Bowl III in what many consider the biggest upset in NFL history with the Jets beating the Colts, but had a career 62-63-4 record. Jurgenson split his career with the Eagles and Redskins, owning a 69-71-7 record while winning the 1960 Super Bowl with Philadelphia.
Though losing, it was by a small margin for both quarterbacks. But the way the Giants are playing, that might not be the case for Manning who could have the lowest win percentage of any quarterback in the Hall if he were elected. That's what he could be facing with this team at the moment.
Manning does have credentials that do -- and should -- outweigh his record, though. First is his two Super Bowl MVP award from 2007 and 2011. He also currently ranks seventh in passing yards all-time with 56,537 in his 16 years in the league thus far. And he holds the Giants' franchise records for most passing yards, touchdowns and completed passes, to name a few.
Will that be enough for Manning to one day join his brother Peyton Manning (a lock for the 2021 class)? The voters will determine that when the time comes, but for now, Manning's record is at stake to stay below .500 if the Giants continue losing and he's under center.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 14704108 JonC said:
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In comment 14704088 BillKo said:
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In comment 14704083 JonC said:
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at some point, a QB with the longevity/compiler stats and rings who was a good but not great player is going to get the snub. Eli could be that player.
Well, what QB's fit this bill besides Eli?
He could be the litmus test. For years, it's been Jim Plunkett.
What stats has Plunkett compiled?
Eli's stats were compiled in the modern NFL era. That and the fact he's a .500 QB who's been consistently inconsistent in the NFL are his negatives. You have to look at it from the perspective of the writers who aren't going to be NYG fans either.
Actually Eli held his starting job for 15 years.....Plunkett can't sniff that for his career. In fact, Plunketts window is like four years....modern era or not.
Again, I see no connection, other than 2 SBs.
Plunkett is in no way a stats compiler.
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In comment 14704083 JonC said:
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at some point, a QB with the longevity/compiler stats and rings who was a good but not great player is going to get the snub. Eli could be that player.
Well, what QB's fit this bill besides Eli?
He could be the litmus test. For years, it's been Jim Plunkett.
He won't be the litmus test...he was the best player in both those postseasons and carried the team in 2011...
Bottom line Plunkett is not even a close comparison...
It's simply not in my DNA to root against the Giants
Or to root for the Eagles.
And I can't feel bad about the way I feel
So, go Eli.
And G-d bless you
He's an incredibly unique case.
Kind of a surprising take from you given you're on record as willing to trade the entire franchise for Bill Belichick.
You'd think knocking him off twice in the biggest game in the sport with heroic 4th quarters/final drives would carry more weight with you.
You alluded to this on another thread but it really does seem like the losing has caused you to lose your perspective.
And what does playing in NY have to do with it?
He would be in with the same numbers in Tenn also...
If anything playing in NY has been a negative because of the inherent anti NY bias in the sports media...
And that's my point. Eli is a unique QB in the fact he's played forever (15 years and has the stats), has won two championships (and made the big play in each), but has surel been inconsistent.
There's no player like that, really that I can think of.....it's why I asked.
Plunket was drafted #1 overall and failed (whether his fault or not) and was traded to San Fran then the Raiders to be a backup. In fact, when the Raiders won in 1980, Plunkett wasn't even the starter the entire year - Dan Pastrini got hurt. Plunkett played outstanding after that and was the QB for the Raiders for that window from 1981-1983 where they had a really good team. And after that, fell back into oblivion of starting/not starting and being an average player.
Plunkett only played every game of any season just 5x (four of those in his first four years). And none with the Raiders except the strike season of 1992.
In the spectrum of QBs, Plunkett is closer to Trent Dilfer than Eli Manning IMO (although he's obviously better than Dilfer).
Well as I have said before, he's done it at the toughest position in sports, in the toughest city for sports.
So yeah.......NY IMO does add something extra.
Add that one team was perfect, and the only loss in the big game, i think he gets the nod.
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I doubt very much that anyone here would consider him a Hall of Famer.
Kind of a surprising take from you given you're on record as willing to trade the entire franchise for Bill Belichick.
You'd think knocking him off twice in the biggest game in the sport with heroic 4th quarters/final drives would carry more weight with you.
You alluded to this on another thread but it really does seem like the losing has caused you to lose your perspective.
Eli's my favorite Giant ever, and I don't give a shit if he makes it to the HOF or not.
Winning those two games carries an enormous amount of weight with me. More, in fact, than the other 242 starts combined. I don't really care about the games started streak, or the stats he put up (which aren't especially impressive).
Eli's had a very strange career. So much of it has been ruined by organizational incompetence.
To me it's about those two games (or the two playoff runs if you prefer). But I'm also a hard marker. To me being in the HOF means you belong in the same room as Otto Graham, John Unitas, or Joe Montana. Eli does not belong in the conversation with those guys. But I wouldn't have put Jim Kelly or Warren Moon in the HOF either.
I don't think there's a problem with my perspective. The fact is that if Eli gets in the HOF it's on the strength of 8 playoff games. The rest doesn't approach the HOF.
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In comment 14704175 Go Terps said:
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I doubt very much that anyone here would consider him a Hall of Famer.
Kind of a surprising take from you given you're on record as willing to trade the entire franchise for Bill Belichick.
You'd think knocking him off twice in the biggest game in the sport with heroic 4th quarters/final drives would carry more weight with you.
You alluded to this on another thread but it really does seem like the losing has caused you to lose your perspective.
Eli's my favorite Giant ever, and I don't give a shit if he makes it to the HOF or not.
Winning those two games carries an enormous amount of weight with me. More, in fact, than the other 242 starts combined. I don't really care about the games started streak, or the stats he put up (which aren't especially impressive).
Eli's had a very strange career. So much of it has been ruined by organizational incompetence.
To me it's about those two games (or the two playoff runs if you prefer). But I'm also a hard marker. To me being in the HOF means you belong in the same room as Otto Graham, John Unitas, or Joe Montana. Eli does not belong in the conversation with those guys. But I wouldn't have put Jim Kelly or Warren Moon in the HOF either.
I don't think there's a problem with my perspective. The fact is that if Eli gets in the HOF it's on the strength of 8 playoff games. The rest doesn't approach the HOF.
Why doesn't Eli belong in the same room as Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Joe Montana?
I can think of a way they're all connected.
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In comment 14704175 Go Terps said:
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I doubt very much that anyone here would consider him a Hall of Famer.
Kind of a surprising take from you given you're on record as willing to trade the entire franchise for Bill Belichick.
You'd think knocking him off twice in the biggest game in the sport with heroic 4th quarters/final drives would carry more weight with you.
You alluded to this on another thread but it really does seem like the losing has caused you to lose your perspective.
Eli's my favorite Giant ever, and I don't give a shit if he makes it to the HOF or not.
Winning those two games carries an enormous amount of weight with me. More, in fact, than the other 242 starts combined. I don't really care about the games started streak, or the stats he put up (which aren't especially impressive).
Eli's had a very strange career. So much of it has been ruined by organizational incompetence.
To me it's about those two games (or the two playoff runs if you prefer). But I'm also a hard marker. To me being in the HOF means you belong in the same room as Otto Graham, John Unitas, or Joe Montana. Eli does not belong in the conversation with those guys. But I wouldn't have put Jim Kelly or Warren Moon in the HOF either.
I don't think there's a problem with my perspective. The fact is that if Eli gets in the HOF it's on the strength of 8 playoff games. The rest doesn't approach the HOF.
That said, I have no problem with your position on Eli and the Hall. There is real room for reasonable disagreement there.
Of the NFL HOF QB's (or those who will get in) how well do you think they would have done if they played for the Giants from 2013-19 with the same players and coaches? Kurt Warner? Ben Roethlisberger?
Considering you wouldn't put Warren Moon or Jim Kelly in the HOF, I don't really have a problem with denying Eli either.
Simply, you're an extremely tough grader. And that's subjective and allowed.
He is playing purely for the love of the game and to be part of a team and to help his teammates.
Which is a ll he ever wanted and all that was ever important to him.