Give it a listen, at least flip forward to the Casillas interview. Its worth your time. Basically he gives really good insight as to how the defense came together in 2016 after a shaky 2015. A nice insider slant that should resonate with you and show you what is probably the OPPOSITE of what our guys are (or arent) doing to be successful on defense now. Eye-opening.
But also JR has some insider comments about something screwy with ourbownership that hes noticed in covering NYG since 2013. Good points made.
Not trying to pimp for Jordan but this was really worth a listen, because Casillas still loves this team and keeps close ties, and hes as frustrated (or more) as we are.
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Until this changes, we're fucked.
I did think his evidence behind those statements seemed a little light. Could be true but even if its not the structure of having an owner as co GM who never faces the media is fucked.
In context of not drafting centers and safeties for ten years.
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I didn't hear anything about Chris Mara drafting anyone specifically.
-but-
Raanan does say that at the Senior Bowl in '13, there were two contingents of Giants. One led by Reese/Ross, and one led by Chris Mara. While Joey is correct about Mara's title, it does make you wonder why he's there in the first place.
Theres nothing about pro personnel and chris Marris title Link - ( New Window )
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he does come right out and say that Mara drafted Webb without McAdoo having seen him, and that he was also responsible for Bisnowaty.
Until this changes, we're fucked.
I did think his evidence behind those statements seemed a little light. Could be true but even if its not the structure of having an owner as co GM who never faces the media is fucked.
There's really no evidence he provided, so all of this is contingent upon taking Raanan at his word.
At the end of the day we really have no way of knowing exactly what Mara's impact is. But I think we can all agree - that he's there, an owner, lodged in between the most senior levels of talent acquisition - on a team having serious talent acquisition problems - is not a good sign.
The range goes from he does nothing - at which point, having someone who actually contributed would be preferable, to he's involved day-to-day - which places someone with zero accountability right in a senior decision making role, right in the middle of an area the Giants have struggled with for nearly a decade.
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In comment 14704758 broadbandz said:
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drafted Webb and Bisnowaty and ran his own shadow group at the senior bowl. No wonder our drafts sucked for 10 yrs.
Chris Mara heads up pro personnel. He's not drafting shit and a shadow group? Delete your handle, root for a new sport and read literally any book. You are too stupid to live.
Lol. Embarassing. He confirmed Mara drafted Webb and Bisnowaty and ran his own shadow group at the senior bowl. Listen to podcast. Maybe delete your account.
All of us at our jobs are asked to do things that might be outside the strict definition of our job descriptions. If you were the brother of the boss, that would almost certainly be even more true.
-but-
Raanan does say that at the Senior Bowl in '13, there were two contingents of Giants. One led by Reese/Ross, and one led by Chris Mara. While Joey is correct about Mara's title, it does make you wonder why he's there in the first place.
This is something felt. Two factions. One side against ELI/TC and the other going a new route. This is where things are different in the Giants structure and where Mara messing things up trying to appease both sides.
So we know he had at least some input in the draft process. The debate isn't 'is he involved?', but 'how much is he involved?'
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drafted Webb and Bisnowaty and ran his own shadow group at the senior bowl. No wonder our drafts sucked for 10 yrs.
Chris Mara heads up pro personnel. He's not drafting shit and a shadow group? Delete your handle, root for a new sport and read literally any book. You are too stupid to live.
I wonder if there's another way to express this sentiment.
And sorry, there is zero chance that McAdoo not having a job is due to his "paid vacation". What team is going to hire him being out of the league for 3 years?
https://www.si.com/2015/05/05/nfl-draft-chris-mara-new-york-giants-kentucky-derby-itsaknockout-horse-racing
Earlier in the morning, the Giants second-round pick, Landon Collins, arrived at the facility after being drafted on Friday night. The Giants had made a trade with the Titans to get the Alabama safety, moving up seven spots after sending fourth- and seventh-round picks to Tennessee.
Mara had joked earlier in the week that he could perhaps convince the Giants to pull a Mike Ditka and trade all their picks away to clear his schedule on Saturday. As it turns out, the seventh-rounder that New York traded was due to be picked right around the Derbys post time. That had nothing to do with me, Mara insists. If it had anything to do with me, wed have traded the fifth-rounder, too.
Last week, Mara began planning his balancing act. At five minutes a pick on Day 3 of the draft, he calculated that the Giants fifth-round selection would be made around 2:15 p.m. He planned to leave as soon as they settled on a name.
2:02 p.m., the Giants pick Mykkele Thompson, a defensive back from Texas, with the No. 144 overall pick
Mara really liked the Thompson selection in the fifth round. Kind of a need for us, he says. Played mostly corner his senior year, but he can play both. We need one of those guys, because were a little short back there. I think theyll try him at free safety first and see where he fits in. Smart, has played a bunch of positions, and hes got special teams temperament, which is good.
3:51 p.m., the Giants draft Geremy Davis, wide receiver from Connecticut, with the No. 186 overall pick
Daniels phone picks up enough cell service to get news of the sixth-round pick as the plane makes its descent. Hearing the name, Mara knows he didnt miss much debate in the war room. Hes a player who we discussed in the fifth round and almost took then, Mara says. Big, strong, tough kid. Hes more of a possession guy, but hes got a special teams temperament also.
Every team grades players differently, and the Giants usually dont get past their sixth row of names during a draft. The highlighted names on his sheet are players who have already been drafted; Mara also wrote the grade he individually assigned based on his own scouting next to each players name. When he left team headquarters, the Giants still had two picks to make, so he brought this along as a reference sheet. But the real scouting work had already been done in the weeks and months prior.
Mara remains in touch with the war room through his nephew, Tim McDonnell, a pro scout for the Giants. Cell service is spotty, so texting is best.
Look, if we were in the first or second round today, I probably wouldnt be here, Mara says. But at this point, its kind of like when you step up to the betting window and put your picks in. Youve already put your picks in, and youre just waiting to see how it falls.
👍
To be fair, this could be some kind of standard practice that we don't know. Maybe it's helpful to have multiple angles of watching the play on the field in person.
But given that we've heard - that this organization often has multiple voices at play in any decision, sometimes clashing - it could be a sign of dysfunction. Mike Lombardi commented in September that if Shurmur went to the FO to get permission to sit Eli, he likely had to get some kind of consensus from Gettleman, John Mara, Chris Mara, Kevin Abrams, and Ernie Accorsi to move forward. This may be total bullshit, but there does appear to be a lot of cooks in the kitchen.
This plays out with BBI asshats as well. Remember jtgiants? He did call a lot free agent signings and team decisions correctly, but was taken completely by surprise with the Jones drafting, saying that Eli was promised that the team would try to compete for him. I bet there are multiple factions in conflict at the FO.
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In comment 14704767 Joey in VA said:
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In comment 14704758 broadbandz said:
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drafted Webb and Bisnowaty and ran his own shadow group at the senior bowl. No wonder our drafts sucked for 10 yrs.
Chris Mara heads up pro personnel. He's not drafting shit and a shadow group? Delete your handle, root for a new sport and read literally any book. You are too stupid to live.
Lol. Embarassing. He confirmed Mara drafted Webb and Bisnowaty and ran his own shadow group at the senior bowl. Listen to podcast. Maybe delete your account.
He can't confirm it, because he doesn't have a clue. Neither of them do and wtf is a shadow group? They arrived in darkness, wore costumes, ninja smoke bombed out and no one saw them? You honestly believe that the son of one of the most famous franchises in the NFL was able to hide his secret squirrel group at a highly public, televised and constantly evaluated week of football? And then ninja drafted players under Jerry Reese's nose? Marc Ross ran the draft, Reese picks the players. I'm sorry that's terribly confusing for you. Use your brain and think and don't believe every bullshit story you hear. Fucking idiot.
I literally just posted what was said in the podcast and you have called me a fucking idiot and told me to kill myself. What did I ever do? I have never talked to you in my life.
This is the most bizarre thing.
I literally just posted what was said in the podcast and you have called me a fucking idiot and told me to kill myself. What did I ever do? I have never talked to you in my life.
This is the most bizarre thing.
Don't worry, it's standard practice.
And to think Dep got banned for a lot less.
If that's what you took from all of this, then the entire thing went over your head.
Webb was a 3rd round flyer. Bisnowaty a 6th round filler. Steward was $6M for a veteran presence. Individually, none of them break the bank.
When you systemically waste resources, you end up at 2-10. Stop looking at moves in a vacuum - it's the sum of the parts that's a problem here.
And, shocking news, I know, there are still fans who enjoy defense and running and low scoring games and eating the clock.
Nobody here is putting any coach (that's been here) - since parcells and bellichick - above parcells and bellichick.
Not coughlin, nor anyone else.
This version of the wco is worse than loosing.
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I literally just posted what was said in the podcast and you have called me a fucking idiot and told me to kill myself. What did I ever do? I have never talked to you in my life.
This is the most bizarre thing.
Don't worry, it's standard practice.
And to think Dep got banned for a lot less.
My only conclusion to this stupid exchange is that Joey in VA (Hospital) has some serious social and psychological problems... this will be confirmed if he does not apologize or repent... not holdin' my breath.
And, shocking news, I know, there are still fans who enjoy defense and running and low scoring games and eating the clock.
Nobody here is putting any coach (that's been here) - since parcells and bellichick - above parcells and bellichick.
Not coughlin, nor anyone else.
This version of the wco is worse than loosing.
It has nothing to do with the WCO. The league favors passing - the rules are all built that way. The linemen coming out of college aren't road graders anymore - they're all from spread offenses.
Trying to build a team focused on running the ball and defense in this era just complicates matters. Use the rules and the talent to their strengths and to your advantage.
But anyone who thinks that Chris Mara and John Mara too aren't deeply involved with the picking the roster both the draft and free agents is in denial.
There is no end in sight to this mess for that reason. I think it's actually going to get worse for a while and it will be a long time until it starts to get better. When John and Chris Mara are forced aside somehow things will improve. Not a minute before.
And it's been said that they invested much $ in rbs.
Instantness in the run game, done well,. If one can run on 3rd and 8 from your own 30, that changes your pass protection outlook radically and allows you to pass.
Didn't the shurm come from the Vikings?
This year, Vikings ran ten runs in a row vs the cowboys. Scoring. TEN!
And won.
That sheds light on what the vikes staff really looked like.
Your pass efforts will then be very high risk.
Be willing to punt if need be. It's a long game.
But if you fail to prepare for such your qb is getting killed.
It's shortsighted and pretentious
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/sports/niners/9363613-181/grant-cohn-defining-kyle-shanahans - ( New Window )
It's ideal to have balance, but sometimes teams are better suited for one or another.
The worst idea you can commit to is being stubborn that one style of play wins games and not adjusting to your talent level and opponents.
The Cassilas interview touches on this: part of Belichik's genius is that he changes the game plan based on the opponent every week. There is no "system" that has to be run continuously, there is no "you win by running the ball and stopping the run" philosophy. You win based on the opponent and players you have available, whether that means running or passing 50 times.
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drafted Webb and Bisnowaty and ran his own shadow group at the senior bowl. No wonder our drafts sucked for 10 yrs.
Chris Mara heads up pro personnel. He's not drafting shit and a shadow group? Delete your handle, root for a new sport and read literally any book. You are too stupid to live.
Came back just now to read through the comments on this thread I posted last night. Can't get past you telling someone they're too stupid to live, are a fucking idiot, etc. just for chiming in on the podcast. WTF is wrong w/ you man? Get a grip, maybe take a few laps outside and then go settle in on the Giants.com MB. Pisses me off you used my thread to treat somebody like shit.
I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding the decision to go to Geno Smith. It wasn't benching Eli because Eli was better, and it wasn't because Geno was a strategic option at QB. It was because they wanted to see the offense with someone different at QB - namely, someone more mobile.
Webb was a rookie third string QB with limited practice time. Smith, good or bad, had starting experience in the NFL and was the second string QB. If you were going to start someone to see if the offensive performance would be different, why on Earth would you put in Webb?
Ranaan also points out that it's hard to fire family, that's why you don't put them in those positions to begin with. A depressing thought. What Chris Mara should do is step aside, but I suppose there's no chance of that. Chris Mara is as much an owner as John Mara.
It's ideal to have balance, but sometimes teams are better suited for one or another.
The worst idea you can commit to is being stubborn that one style of play wins games and not adjusting to your talent level and opponents.
The Cassilas interview touches on this: part of Belichik's genius is that he changes the game plan based on the opponent every week. There is no "system" that has to be run continuously, there is no "you win by running the ball and stopping the run" philosophy. You win based on the opponent and players you have available, whether that means running or passing 50 times.
That sounds easier than it is to execute.
Coaches have egos. Perhaps bigger egos than the players themselves. They believe what they do in terms of their scheme and philosophy is what makes things go. The players are nothing more than pieces.
The utopia is to have the great coach who plays to the strengths of his roster. But how many actually do that? You can probably count them on one hands the truly great coaches who have done that over the last century.
When the team sucks ass running the stuff the coach is calling, rarely do some of the coaches blame it on their system, but rather, the players not executing. We see it here with Shurmur and before him, and with other guys in the past. Why do they do that? Because their ego won't allow them to think any other way.
Should they come to their senses? You would think so. But most coaches would rather run into a wall failing with their system than seek other alternatives.
The truly great ones check themselves and their egos and are willing to be flexible. This is why I love John Harbaugh for what he has done last year and this season.
as were the geremy davis and mykkele thompson picks.
chris mara was apparently responsible for all of these picks, or at least they were his recommendations. i don't like raanan much, but i don't think he's just making this up.
what a mess. chris mara is the one exerting the most influence on day two draft picks? before he leaves to watch the horses? seriously? chris mara should fuck off to kentucky to bet on the horses forever. i don't want him anywhere near the draft room.
this reads like a fucking onion article.
It has nothing to do with the WCO. The league favors passing - the rules are all built that way. The linemen coming out of college aren't road graders anymore - they're all from spread offenses.
Trying to build a team focused on running the ball and defense in this era just complicates matters. Use the rules and the talent to their strengths and to your advantage.
It is true that offenses are spreading out, and OL need to be more athletic and quicker. That said, so do defensive front 7's. So there is some merit to zigging while other teams zag.
As defenses get smaller and quicker to handle spreads, why not try a smash mouth approach? Bigger OL, tighter line splits, run it down their throats.
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It has nothing to do with the WCO. The league favors passing - the rules are all built that way. The linemen coming out of college aren't road graders anymore - they're all from spread offenses.
Trying to build a team focused on running the ball and defense in this era just complicates matters. Use the rules and the talent to their strengths and to your advantage.
It is true that offenses are spreading out, and OL need to be more athletic and quicker. That said, so do defensive front 7's. So there is some merit to zigging while other teams zag.
As defenses get smaller and quicker to handle spreads, why not try a smash mouth approach? Bigger OL, tighter line splits, run it down their throats.
My guess - lack of availability of quality players capable of executing well enough for it to work. I'm sure the same thought has dawned on other teams, there are an awful lot of scouting and coaching staff spread across the other 31 teams. They probably never went to the drawing board with it because they figured it was either too hard to pull off or it was just easier to follow the trend with what's available.
bisnowaty is currently out of the league. he spent one year on the giants. most of it on the practice squad.
i realize it was a 6th rounder (trade up), but the broader point is that chris mara doesn't seem to have an eye for talent. in fact- the opposite. he seems to suck at his job.
You look at this team, the one thing that strikes you is that they don't seem to be on the same page. You question whether they have an identity. They seem disorganized and unprepared.
It starts at the top - if the senior levels of the org aren't on the same page when it comes to drafting players, there's going to be a trickle down effect that impacts the rest of the org.
So we know he had at least some input in the draft process. The debate isn't 'is he involved?', but 'how much is he involved?'
The fact was that he was at the draft suggests he has some input in the process.
He was wrong in that he thought geno Smith was or ever would be a better qb than Eli. That decision was stupid. The way the entire thing was handled was stupid and he had lost the team prior to that.
And I saw someone else say mcadoo and excellent in the same sentence. Mcadoo did NOTHING excellent as HC here. NOTHING. He led a terrible offense, his, and didnt get in the way of a great defense in 2016. Then he did get in the way and the team fell apart on the field and off it faster than shit through a goose.
Never should have hired mcadoo in the first place. Lets just get that out if it it hasnt been said already.
Although not dramatic, It happened with Collins and it happened this year with the #3 first round pick. As a result, they give away draft picks.
The guy was a boob. The team even knew he was a boob and gave him the positions anyway: they were trying to hire an assistant HC to prop him up. And then they went out and spent 100 million in defensive players to try and buck him up. He still fucked it up. Clown.
Chris Mara ws appointed VP of Player personnel right after 2011 Super bowl
which was the last time this franchise was strong
since then GM 2 Head Coaches and multiple players have left organization and yet Chris Mara still has a job