Reasons to fire both:
1) After two years under their stewardship, every element of the team is a mess.
2) No improvement is evident anywhere over the disaster they inherited.
3) Shurmur has not demonstrated strength in any aspect of his job: Leadership, culture, scheme design, game-planning, team preparation, talent development/utilization, game management, in-game adjustments. Zip. I don't hate the guy, at all, and the circumstances are lousy; I just don't see anything to like either.
4) Gettleman has failed in every phase of roster-building.
- His FA acquisitions have been terrible.
- Of his two major trades, the blockbuster, multi-part deal with Cleveland might be a debatable win, but his swap of draft picks for Leonard Williams is, by most measures, baffling.
- The jury is still out on his first two draft classes; the 2018 picks all disappointed this year, for different reasons. DG already gutted days 2 and 3 of the crucial 2020 draft to rent Williams for eight meaningless games.
5) About a thousand other reasons, though none of them may matter if the Maras continue to operate a nepotistic old-boy network after these guys are gone.
Reasons to keep both: [DISCLAIMER: I THINK THESE ARE BS.]
1) This was always a three-year rebuild, starting with a two-year tear-down. Changing leadership now will just set that process back.
2) Many important roster pieces are in place. The plan is working in ways the record doesn't reflect.
3) Shurmur was Gettleman's guy. They are a package. If you give Gettleman another year to right the ship, it makes no sense to bring in a new head coach who might need to be fired with Gettleman if the team stinks in 2020.
Reasons to fire Shurmur and keep Gettleman: [DISCLAIMER: I THINK THESE ARE BIGGER BS.]
1) The mess on the field is Shurmur's fault. Other than hiring Shurmur, Gettleman is doing a good job, and the choices when he hired Shurmur were mostly crap anyway. Let DG correct his one big mistake and move on with a new coach - possibly one with whom he has a prior connection like Ron Rivera.
Anybody got a better reason? Is my personal dislike of Gettleman obscuring his achievements?
Its Knish lol
Guess what? Reese deserved to be fired specifically for his last few drafts here.
And even after lining them up, and drafting much higher - they're really not any better.
Kids stay off the drugs -lol
keep looking? until when? the NFL doesn't wait until the giants find a coach you know.
So you’re saying there were no other coordinators or college guys that would have been better? OK....
Agreed. Spot on. The Leonard Williams trade really left me scratching my head.
But maybe the biggest reason for changing one and not the other is simply who is available to replace them. There is a good coach available -- Ron Rivera. But who exactly would be available to replace Gettleman?
I think one of the keys to success is knowing when to make the switch -- you've got to identify someone who can get the job done. You can't just fire people and bring in an unproven longshot and hope it works out. Didn't we learn that based on how the Giants have tried to build an O-line?
I think I have a little more faith in Gettleman than I have in Giants ownership when in comes to making key football decisions.
Just because 1 hc is terrible does not mean you have to fire the GM. DG has given Us Barkley, our next franchise QB in Jones, Slayton who has looked like a steal, Dexter Lawrence who has been good,
The coaching staff is to blame. They have failed to progress this team to where it should be.
Coaching, not GM'ing.
They are not linked and it is possible that one could be doing a satisfactory job while the other not.
I do not think that it is possible to evaluate a GM in two years
The Giants team Gettleman inherited was beyond awful
It was not possible to rebuild the roster over night
It will take years to create a talented and deep roster
Gettleman has drafted well and has a concept of what the team should be.
Shurmur on the other hand has not demonstrated that he can coach
His teams have gotten worse and players have not developed
A good coach should be able to develop schemes that maximizes the talent
Talented young players such as;
Barkley , Engram , Jones, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Tomlinson, etc. have regressed during the season
I'm with you on wanting a clean sweep from the top down. While I think DG's draft picks have been pretty good, he's been a terrible GM in every other phase of the job. I'd also like to add onto your list that his press conferences are even more cringe-worthy that Reese's.
That being said, do we trust ownership to get it right when selecting the next GM? It's pick your poison at this point.
$66 million for nate solder is a big time miss. Not sure how that doesn't count.
Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
Please go back to your desk, have someone from IT turn you computer on, and start working with Abrams to keep the LW contract at only $17M/yr.
You should self-suspend yourself for your conclusions above...
Coaching, not GM'ing.
How can the additions be "proven improvements" if they are underperforming? What is the measure you are using to declare them improvements? If we can't see any improvement on the field, the best you can do is speculate they are improvements.
Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.
I don't know. I'm worried about Jones and Barkley is halfway to contract talks. I'm not sure either are still Giants in 3 years.
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
You toss the word "stud" around pretty loosely. Some of those "studs" are decent players but far from studs. McCaffrey and Short are studs while Saquon has stud potential. Kelvin Benjamin good? He hasn't been able to find a job in almost 2 years.
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I like the talent they've assembled at QB, RB, CB as core, and expect with better coaching they will return to form and begin to ascend, versus regressing under this staff.
Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.
I don't know. I'm worried about Jones and Barkley is halfway to contract talks. I'm not sure either are still Giants in 3 years.
I still feel like they forced the Jones pick, but I'm ok with SB provided they build the offense around him so he's used to his best abilities.
What if we had kept Richburg and Fluker and the trade of OV could have been for a pick or another player at a position of need. We essentially downgraded at OC, OL coach and probably RG and our OL now seems worse than ever and that's saying something. He has completely missed in FA, absolutely awful signings and trades. He's a disaster, I was dead wrong.
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keep looking? until when? the NFL doesn't wait until the giants find a coach you know.
So you’re saying there were no other coordinators or college guys that would have been better? OK....
lets use facts.
bears got Nagy
colts got Reich
Titans got Vrabel
Raiders got Gruden
those are the "good" ones so far and you can scratch Gruden off as a candidate because he was given carte blanche in oakland.
steve wilks got canned after 1 year. wasn't his fault arizona was a mess IMO.
Lions got Matt Patricia and may be out already(mistake in my eyes).
the only good coach out of this bunch is Reich and Vrabel. i wonder how many of you were pounding your keyboards for those 2...
If the players are good enough and Shurmur isn't getting the best out of them, how is that Gettleman's fault?
There is no past evidence suggesting Shurmur is a good head coach, so he is the leading suspect.
When Reese was fired it was after a coaching change already happened, that didn't improve anything. I think you'll see the same thing here.
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Granted it’s a monster mistake but DG is at least competent in his job.... the coaching staff not so much.
$66 million for nate solder is a big time miss. Not sure how that doesn't count.
this is hindsight. Solder was a very serviceable LT for the freakin Pats. he came here and regressed... coaching.
This is a real key point. That Seattle OL in '17 and '16 was dreadful. One of the worst OLs I have seen.
They bring in Solari, make a few nice moves, and they are suddenly competent-plus.
The hiring of Hunter shows are crucial it is to builda competent staff, especially for a position a critical as OL. Hunter was a big, big miss...
coaching.
What if we had kept Richburg and Fluker and the trade of OV could have been for a pick or another player at a position of need. We essentially downgraded at OC, OL coach and probably RG and our OL now seems worse than ever and that's saying something. He has completely missed in FA, absolutely awful signings and trades. He's a disaster, I was dead wrong.
That's OK Joey, the first step is admitting that there's a problem.
The C position is probably the biggest joke - they took a guy who was serviceable in Jones, traded him away for peanuts, and went with Halapio and Pulley instead.
Jones may have been backup material - he worked out for the Vikings in that capacity just fine - but Halapio hasn't proven to be worthy of a backup spot. And consider he's a career journeyman, who's surprised? Aside from Gettleman.
So yeah, Hunter's probably not going to be confused with Bill Callahan any day soon, but garbage in, garbage out - starting at the C position.
Meanwhile, out in SF, Richburg seems to be helping them just fine.
What if we had kept Richburg and Fluker and the trade of OV could have been for a pick or another player at a position of need. We essentially downgraded at OC, OL coach and probably RG and our OL now seems worse than ever and that's saying something. He has completely missed in FA, absolutely awful signings and trades. He's a disaster, I was dead wrong.
Those are good points Joey for sure.
What if we had kept Richburg and Fluker and the trade of OV could have been for a pick or another player at a position of need. We essentially downgraded at OC, OL coach and probably RG and our OL now seems worse than ever and that's saying something. He has completely missed in FA, absolutely awful signings and trades. He's a disaster, I was dead wrong.
"Let's be honest there is a problem with the OL."
"You need big men to compete"
Our lines suck. Our OL is worse than when he took over. Worse, after identifying as a position of need.
He used FA dollars.
He used draft capital.
He traded.
meh.
2 wins in year 2 so far and the OL sucks.
Barkley is a dancer.
He said he was tape guy.
He was going to put in the work to find the next Norwell.
He fucking found a Ray Handley clone in Shurmur. Handley probably won more fucking games.
Nate Solder can't even hold Will Beaty's jock for 60 million.
Fucking total failure.
Coming back to Gettleman and Shurmur, I'm largely agnostic on whether either should be fired. The results so far have been poor, but we don't know the alternatives, or how much change the Maras are prepared to implement. Obviously, if the coaching options are much better than the GM options, that makes a difference. My main point was that replacing the coach but not the GM sets up an even worse dilemma a year from now if (as seems likely) the team continues to suck.
I can see two reasonable options for the aftermath of firing Shurmur, though I'm not wild about either:
1) Commit to Gettleman for another 2-3 years, to let his partnership with a new coach succeed or fail.
2) Designate a likely, in-house successor who is on board with the choice of coach in case DG has to be "retired" after another year of lousy football. But who? Abrams is a cap/contract guy who gets a lot of praise around here. He may or may not be unusually good at his job; he seems competent in a role that the whole League now seems to handle pretty well. I'm not aware of any evidence that he knows anything about talent. The other options are mostly family members - an idea that will appeal to fans who fondly remember the 1974 Giants.
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
I don't get the DG hate and we really want to set the team
back even more . The coaches do need to move on
all of them what else would you do who would want DG's
job and who might that be ? I am not 100% opposed to
tearing it all down but it makes no sense at this point .
Theres nothing to lose here. Nothing was built in the first place. In two years on the job the only thing they have is a RB, a stud DT, and maybe a QB for the future.
Theres nothing to lose here. Nothing was built in the first place. In two years on the job the only thing they have is a RB, a stud DT, and maybe a QB for the future.
It's been two drafts. How many starters do you think most teams get per draft? I don't know the number, but it's probably about 2 or 3
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His 2 drafts
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
I don't get the DG hate and we really want to set the team
back even more . The coaches do need to move on
all of them what else would you do who would want DG's
job and who might that be ? I am not 100% opposed to
tearing it all down but it makes no sense at this point .
I think the DG hate comes from a couple things:
The consensus media hate for him regarding the obj trade and the pick of Daniel Jones.
He says one thing and does another.
Players in Carolina didn’t like him.
He brought Eli back.
His trades aren’t working out.
His fa’s for the most part haven’t worked out.
I can understand all this, but I also see his vision and am pretty excited to have him on board. He won the obj trade, drafted Danny dimes, he’s playing chess, why would he say his actual plan to the media. Steve Smith did not deserve another huge contract, deangelo Williams flamed out. The Eli decision has ownership written all over it, a gm who believes in Eli doesn’t draft Danny Jones with the 6th pick. Look at the Steelers and Chargers, they both waited forever to get a backup and we used our best pick on one. It’s clear DG knew exactly what Eli was.
Ogletree regressed heavily, Solder regressed, LW might not be here next year, Zietler is our best oLineman making due with a terrible Center after having good centers in Cleveland and Cincinnati.
The problem to me with firing DG is that his roster doesn’t need to be broken down. A new GM is gonna come in here and do the obvious, draft Chase young, get a center from Oklahoma or Wisconsin and give out 2 or 3 big contracts in free agency. This team with the new head coach is going to look compleeeeeeetely different and then we’ll be giving credit to the new GM for making moves a 6 year old with 2 years of peewee experience can make.
A new coach comes in and actually coaches the defense, actually runs the ball with saquon, all the young players grow up and DG is a martyr... for what?? My vote, not that I have one, is to Let DG get a new coach and win with the roster he created.
I mean, Tisch has to know this much, right? It's not rocket science, and he has had a lot of business dealings and a lot of access to people in the know.
That conversation with John Mara should be pretty simple:
"Look John, you guys have had at it for some time now, and it's not getting any better. Shit, people are comparing us to the Knicks. Why don't we call this experiment over, we'll call in some experts to tell us what they think we should do next."
I would like to know if Gettleman really thought this team would competitive this year....I would like to see this roster with a different coaching staff. Not saying Gettleman is not to blame, but I would be willing to give him another year assuming he took responsibility for the roster and presented plan moving forward.
Except...
He came and said he was going to improve the OL.
He said he would look at tons of tape to find us a Norwell.
We got saddled with Solder for 60 million.
Barkley may have been touched by the hand of god but god made him dance too much. The numbers for efficiency on him are bottom of the barrel.
So I am left with the result.
The result is the Giants are so awful to watch in year 2 I am following another team for the rest of season in protest.
Give me coach that demands roster control, fire DG and Shurmur. No more finger pointing. Win or GTFO.
From my view, he's shown to be a slightly better drafter than Reese. But I don't see a dynamite draft class in 2018.
I haven't moved from my stance Gettleman and Shurmur deserve 3 years, and if they don't get to the playoffs next year, they both go.
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You're talking about setbacks from a 2-win team.
Theres nothing to lose here. Nothing was built in the first place. In two years on the job the only thing they have is a RB, a stud DT, and maybe a QB for the future.
It's been two drafts. How many starters do you think most teams get per draft? I don't know the number, but it's probably about 2 or 3
Which highlights the other problem. Almkst every attempt to add to this roster other than the draft has flopped. Markus Golden is the only signing that has shown a pulse without the use of banned substances. The offensive line additions have been one bust after another. They signed a 35 year old safety that's been the cause of blown coverage after blown coverage. Their big ticket WR missed 4 games before he even put on a helmet because he failed a drug test.
I just cannot get past the poor judgment calls on Eli, Solder and now Williams. It’s just not okay to be right sometimes. This isn’t darts...
Good post. I completely agree.
- He didn't have an all star cast of coaches to choose from 2 years back. The only 2 to really work out were not obvious nor too high on anyones list in Vrable and Reich. Also ownership plays a very big role in the final decision for HC taking the onus partially off of DG.
-While they may not feel the current roster is a Super Bowl contender they very likely feel its quite a bit better than 2-10.
-With improved talent in a few areas, instead of progressing from last year we have regressed.
-Both of the last 2 points are serious indictments on coaching.
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... I would emphasize the "how" over the "who". The only truly good GM hire in the history of the franchise was shoved down the Maras' throats. They suck at this part of ownership, because they can't see beyond their extended football "family"; they need to outsource the process. Not Ernie f*cking Accorsi as a "consultant". They need to do what other billion-dollar businesses routinely do when they fill crucial C-Suite positions: pay an actual pro to scour the industry, build a shortlist of candidates, and sell those smart AGMs, pro personnel directors and directors of college scouting on what a great opportunity the NYG GM position really is.
Good post. I completely agree.
+1, IMO I would like to see this happen. Nothing is guaranteed of course, but I think this is the right process.
At this point in the season OG Ereck Flowers rates higher than Will Hernandez according to PFF!!!!!
It can be nothing else but coaching and poor position designation.
Flowers was a bust for us!!!!