Reasons to fire both:
1) After two years under their stewardship, every element of the team is a mess.
2) No improvement is evident anywhere over the disaster they inherited.
3) Shurmur has not demonstrated strength in any aspect of his job: Leadership, culture, scheme design, game-planning, team preparation, talent development/utilization, game management, in-game adjustments. Zip. I don't hate the guy, at all, and the circumstances are lousy; I just don't see anything to like either.
4) Gettleman has failed in every phase of roster-building.
- His FA acquisitions have been terrible.
- Of his two major trades, the blockbuster, multi-part deal with Cleveland might be a debatable win, but his swap of draft picks for Leonard Williams is, by most measures, baffling.
- The jury is still out on his first two draft classes; the 2018 picks all disappointed this year, for different reasons. DG already gutted days 2 and 3 of the crucial 2020 draft to rent Williams for eight meaningless games.
5) About a thousand other reasons, though none of them may matter if the Maras continue to operate a nepotistic old-boy network after these guys are gone.
Reasons to keep both: [DISCLAIMER: I THINK THESE ARE BS.]
1) This was always a three-year rebuild, starting with a two-year tear-down. Changing leadership now will just set that process back.
2) Many important roster pieces are in place. The plan is working in ways the record doesn't reflect.
3) Shurmur was Gettleman's guy. They are a package. If you give Gettleman another year to right the ship, it makes no sense to bring in a new head coach who might need to be fired with Gettleman if the team stinks in 2020.
Reasons to fire Shurmur and keep Gettleman: [DISCLAIMER: I THINK THESE ARE BIGGER BS.]
1) The mess on the field is Shurmur's fault. Other than hiring Shurmur, Gettleman is doing a good job, and the choices when he hired Shurmur were mostly crap anyway. Let DG correct his one big mistake and move on with a new coach - possibly one with whom he has a prior connection like Ron Rivera.
Anybody got a better reason? Is my personal dislike of Gettleman obscuring his achievements?
IMO, fire both. Giants are 2-10, truly the dregs of the NFL and DG is responsible.
Shurmur has no such record as a head coach and his choices for assistants has been abysmal. If you want to blame Gettleman for hiring Shurmur, ok, still Shurmur has shown nothing as a head coach in the NFL.
Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be criticism towards DG...the fact he has not fixed the OL and he said that was his top priority is evidence of that. But, he certainly deserves more time. Shurmur does not.
1) This was always a three-year rebuild, starting with a two-year tear-down. Changing leadership now will just set that process back.
- we didn't tear down? They can say that as a reason but the second Eli was kept on the roster for 2019 the tear down piece was crap. When the trade deadline came and went and JJ, AO, EE were still on the roster the tear down excuse is not valid.
Miami did a FULL tear down. They got rid of many many players and brought in low rentals, draft picks and stopgap guys. Even the OBJ trade was a half measure if part of a tear down as we brought back players vs just draft picks.
The Giants management and Gettleman is a big part of that, saw this team as a 6-7 win team transitioning to a new QB and better days in 2020. What they really had was a shitty team with an barely improved Oline, a HUGE cap eating QB who should not have been starting and an absolute dumpster fire of a defense. This team and their 2 wins, which comically is inflated as we really should have lost to TB if not for a horrible coaching decision just prior to the game winning FG attempt and then of course the actual attempt itself, is a complete joke who still needs to tear down.
The GM of the Giants isn't running the team. Not the job description. He is there partly in place to be the face of the decisions though.
The Maras are running the team. I mean - are we even sure it was Gettleman's idea to trade for Leonard Williams? What if Chris or John wanted him? They'd go through Gettleman to do it.
Barkley - same thing. If you follow DG does it seem like he'd pass up Quenton Nelson for Barkley? When he inherited a dreadful OL that he promised to fix and Larry Allen 2.0 is sitting there? You could argue McCaffrey but there wasn't a Nelson on the board then. I could easily see Mara stepping in and seeing dollar signs on Barkley's marketability. It's the only real logic that makes sense to picking a RB in that situation. Easiest explanation is always $$$.
I can't prove any of this - but neither can you.
At the end of the day I want Shurmur gone ASAP. Gettleman I'm still somewhat on the fence.
Gettleman, March 2019: “Really and truly, you can win while you’re building...We’re building. The object of this is to win as many games as possible every year, so we’re building. We were 3-13 when I took over. We were 5-11 last year — 12 of those games were a touchdown or less. We’re building. I don’t understand why that is a question.”
Gettleman, April 2019: “We went into last season believing Eli had a lot left and he’s proven that...We won two more games than the team did the year before, you had all these games that we lost by a point or two. We lost eight games by a touchdown or less. The NFL is tight, tight, tight, a few more plays get you over the top and now you’re winning more.”
These are just a couple of many examples where Gettleman has shown he though the team was in a much better position than it was. Or, possibly, the team was in a better situation and he and Shurmur made it worse. Either way I don’t want the guy running the show going forward.
you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.
we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.
shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.
Shurmur and much of his coaching staff on the other hand has been a disaster. Betccher and Hunter in particular are just lost.
you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.
we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.
shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.
Reese's last few generated two starters on this team (one that was just extended) a safety that signed a huge deal that generated a 3rd rounder, and a leading #1 WR that generated several picks.
In two drafts, picking at #2 and #6 overall? An underperforming WR, a DB who wouldn't be on the field on most teams, a G that had a good rookie year and is sliding backward, and hopefully a DT that will prove to be better than Snacks.
Yup, great drafts so far - and the results on the field show it.
As for cap hell - he squandered every bit of cap space he got his hands on, when he wasn't trading away picks for the right to do so in Ogletree and Williams.
Resumes for guys who are better? Leave the resume talk to Gettleman, so he can tell you all the rings he's responsible for.
You are certainly dead right about the results not being there. But the reasons why are a lot more subtle and complex than this one basic truth.
you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.
we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.
shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.
If you think we settled for Shurmur than that is reason enough. You keep looking until you find a guy. The problem was they had an idea of the "type" they wanted and filled that from that narrower set.
Reese is not the bar. The league is the bar. And we are 2-10 with as many holes to fill today as we had two years ago.
Quote:
who out there has a strong resume?
you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.
we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.
shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.
If you think we settled for Shurmur than that is reason enough. You keep looking until you find a guy. The problem was they had an idea of the "type" they wanted and filled that from that narrower set.
Reese is not the bar. The league is the bar. And we are 2-10 with as many holes to fill today as we had two years ago.
keep looking? until when? the NFL doesn't wait until the giants find a coach you know.
the cupboard was bare with talent. we fuckin sucked for years. even in mcadoo's first year we sucked. could hardly score points. we got a bunch of FA's on defense who played balls out for their new contracts and the guys quit the very next year.
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
Now we have money to go forward and you start the rebuild and hopefully the young guys from the last two drafts will get better and sign a few free agent and the rebuilding process will begin this off season in earnest.
Some of these are just stupid
Now we have money to go forward and you start the rebuild and hopefully the young guys from the last two drafts will get better and sign a few free agent and the rebuilding process will begin this off season in earnest.
Some of these are just stupid
Pheww ... Here this whole time I thought Gettleman was actually trying to get better.
I'm glad he's finally going start in earnest.
LOL this thread was like the bat signal for you...
Guess what? Reese deserved to be fired specifically for his last few drafts here.
And even after lining them up, and drafting much higher - they're really not any better.
Its Knish lol
Guess what? Reese deserved to be fired specifically for his last few drafts here.
And even after lining them up, and drafting much higher - they're really not any better.
Kids stay off the drugs -lol
keep looking? until when? the NFL doesn't wait until the giants find a coach you know.
So you’re saying there were no other coordinators or college guys that would have been better? OK....
Agreed. Spot on. The Leonard Williams trade really left me scratching my head.
But maybe the biggest reason for changing one and not the other is simply who is available to replace them. There is a good coach available -- Ron Rivera. But who exactly would be available to replace Gettleman?
I think one of the keys to success is knowing when to make the switch -- you've got to identify someone who can get the job done. You can't just fire people and bring in an unproven longshot and hope it works out. Didn't we learn that based on how the Giants have tried to build an O-line?
I think I have a little more faith in Gettleman than I have in Giants ownership when in comes to making key football decisions.
Just because 1 hc is terrible does not mean you have to fire the GM. DG has given Us Barkley, our next franchise QB in Jones, Slayton who has looked like a steal, Dexter Lawrence who has been good,
The coaching staff is to blame. They have failed to progress this team to where it should be.
Coaching, not GM'ing.
They are not linked and it is possible that one could be doing a satisfactory job while the other not.
I do not think that it is possible to evaluate a GM in two years
The Giants team Gettleman inherited was beyond awful
It was not possible to rebuild the roster over night
It will take years to create a talented and deep roster
Gettleman has drafted well and has a concept of what the team should be.
Shurmur on the other hand has not demonstrated that he can coach
His teams have gotten worse and players have not developed
A good coach should be able to develop schemes that maximizes the talent
Talented young players such as;
Barkley , Engram , Jones, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Tomlinson, etc. have regressed during the season
I'm with you on wanting a clean sweep from the top down. While I think DG's draft picks have been pretty good, he's been a terrible GM in every other phase of the job. I'd also like to add onto your list that his press conferences are even more cringe-worthy that Reese's.
That being said, do we trust ownership to get it right when selecting the next GM? It's pick your poison at this point.
$66 million for nate solder is a big time miss. Not sure how that doesn't count.
Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
Please go back to your desk, have someone from IT turn you computer on, and start working with Abrams to keep the LW contract at only $17M/yr.
You should self-suspend yourself for your conclusions above...
Coaching, not GM'ing.
How can the additions be "proven improvements" if they are underperforming? What is the measure you are using to declare them improvements? If we can't see any improvement on the field, the best you can do is speculate they are improvements.
Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.
I don't know. I'm worried about Jones and Barkley is halfway to contract talks. I'm not sure either are still Giants in 3 years.
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.
Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
You toss the word "stud" around pretty loosely. Some of those "studs" are decent players but far from studs. McCaffrey and Short are studs while Saquon has stud potential. Kelvin Benjamin good? He hasn't been able to find a job in almost 2 years.