for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

I can't see any reason to fire Shurmur and keep Gettleman.

Big Blue Blogger : 12/6/2019 11:36 am
Reasons to fire both:
1) After two years under their stewardship, every element of the team is a mess.
2) No improvement is evident anywhere over the disaster they inherited.
3) Shurmur has not demonstrated strength in any aspect of his job: Leadership, culture, scheme design, game-planning, team preparation, talent development/utilization, game management, in-game adjustments. Zip. I don't hate the guy, at all, and the circumstances are lousy; I just don't see anything to like either.
4) Gettleman has failed in every phase of roster-building.
- His FA acquisitions have been terrible.
- Of his two major trades, the blockbuster, multi-part deal with Cleveland might be a debatable win, but his swap of draft picks for Leonard Williams is, by most measures, baffling.
- The jury is still out on his first two draft classes; the 2018 picks all disappointed this year, for different reasons. DG already gutted days 2 and 3 of the crucial 2020 draft to rent Williams for eight meaningless games.
5) About a thousand other reasons, though none of them may matter if the Maras continue to operate a nepotistic old-boy network after these guys are gone.

Reasons to keep both: [DISCLAIMER: I THINK THESE ARE BS.]
1) This was always a three-year rebuild, starting with a two-year tear-down. Changing leadership now will just set that process back.
2) Many important roster pieces are in place. The plan is working in ways the record doesn't reflect.
3) Shurmur was Gettleman's guy. They are a package. If you give Gettleman another year to right the ship, it makes no sense to bring in a new head coach who might need to be fired with Gettleman if the team stinks in 2020.

Reasons to fire Shurmur and keep Gettleman: [DISCLAIMER: I THINK THESE ARE BIGGER BS.]
1) The mess on the field is Shurmur's fault. Other than hiring Shurmur, Gettleman is doing a good job, and the choices when he hired Shurmur were mostly crap anyway. Let DG correct his one big mistake and move on with a new coach - possibly one with whom he has a prior connection like Ron Rivera.

Anybody got a better reason? Is my personal dislike of Gettleman obscuring his achievements?
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Someone should send this to Mara  
Go Terps : 12/6/2019 11:40 am : link
100% accurate.
Completely agree  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/6/2019 11:42 am : link
if you are keeping DG, keep Shurmur.

IMO, fire both. Giants are 2-10, truly the dregs of the NFL and DG is responsible.
I the Williams trade should seal his fate  
Ben in Tampa : 12/6/2019 11:42 am : link
But I think the good vibes of the Jones pick buys him more time.
I would disagree...  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 12/6/2019 11:45 am : link
Gettleman has a record behind him that indicates he has been successful and knows what he was doing...even in Carolina.

Shurmur has no such record as a head coach and his choices for assistants has been abysmal. If you want to blame Gettleman for hiring Shurmur, ok, still Shurmur has shown nothing as a head coach in the NFL.

Now, I'm not saying there shouldn't be criticism towards DG...the fact he has not fixed the OL and he said that was his top priority is evidence of that. But, he certainly deserves more time. Shurmur does not.
Nothing to add but...  
jcn56 : 12/6/2019 11:49 am : link
The #1 on the reasons to keep  
jvm52106 : 12/6/2019 11:54 am : link
list is true except:

1) This was always a three-year rebuild, starting with a two-year tear-down. Changing leadership now will just set that process back.

- we didn't tear down? They can say that as a reason but the second Eli was kept on the roster for 2019 the tear down piece was crap. When the trade deadline came and went and JJ, AO, EE were still on the roster the tear down excuse is not valid.

Miami did a FULL tear down. They got rid of many many players and brought in low rentals, draft picks and stopgap guys. Even the OBJ trade was a half measure if part of a tear down as we brought back players vs just draft picks.

The Giants management and Gettleman is a big part of that, saw this team as a 6-7 win team transitioning to a new QB and better days in 2020. What they really had was a shitty team with an barely improved Oline, a HUGE cap eating QB who should not have been starting and an absolute dumpster fire of a defense. This team and their 2 wins, which comically is inflated as we really should have lost to TB if not for a horrible coaching decision just prior to the game winning FG attempt and then of course the actual attempt itself, is a complete joke who still needs to tear down.
I think Shurmur will get canned, but DG will survive  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/6/2019 11:57 am : link
unfortunately. It seems like a half assed move Mara would make.
No reason huh...  
aGiantGuy : 12/6/2019 11:57 am : link
You say Gettleman has failed in every aspect of roster building and then go on to say the jury is not yet out on his drafts. The contradiction made my head hurt. Pick one.
Great post  
AcesUp : 12/6/2019 11:59 am : link
Even if you feel that DG has been ok or has an incomplete grade, exactly what purpose does a lame duck GM, at his stage in both his life and career, serve a franchise that is bringing in a new coach with a 2nd year qb? It doesn't fit. Even if Abrams is an inevitability, then now is the time to just get on with it.
A lot of your lists  
mittenedman : 12/6/2019 12:05 pm : link
aren't taking into consideration some of these weren't Gettleman's decisions. Maybe any of them.

The GM of the Giants isn't running the team. Not the job description. He is there partly in place to be the face of the decisions though.

The Maras are running the team. I mean - are we even sure it was Gettleman's idea to trade for Leonard Williams? What if Chris or John wanted him? They'd go through Gettleman to do it.

Barkley - same thing. If you follow DG does it seem like he'd pass up Quenton Nelson for Barkley? When he inherited a dreadful OL that he promised to fix and Larry Allen 2.0 is sitting there? You could argue McCaffrey but there wasn't a Nelson on the board then. I could easily see Mara stepping in and seeing dollar signs on Barkley's marketability. It's the only real logic that makes sense to picking a RB in that situation. Easiest explanation is always $$$.

I can't prove any of this - but neither can you.
RE: No reason huh...  
Big Blue Blogger : 12/6/2019 12:07 pm : link
aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
You say Gettleman has failed in every aspect of roster building and then go on to say the jury is not yet out on his drafts. The contradiction made my head hurt. Pick one.
You're right. I shouldn't have said "failed". Can we agree that he can't currently point to any clear successes? Maybe two years is too soon to judge.
I'm more optimistic...  
Johnny5 : 12/6/2019 12:07 pm : link
... on DG then you are Blogger, but it's tough to argue your logic at this point. This team is a mess from top to bottom.

At the end of the day I want Shurmur gone ASAP. Gettleman I'm still somewhat on the fence.
Gettlemen isn't a coach  
Gordo : 12/6/2019 12:13 pm : link
he picks the parts, the coaches have to get them to perform. That's why I don't blame DG. The fact that our OL is worse is squarely on PS and his coaches. Solder was a serviceable tackle in NE , comes to NY and is terrible. Same for Zeitler. Hernandez has regressed etc.. COACHING!
DG drafts  
uther99 : 12/6/2019 12:13 pm : link
have been fine. Look at other teams' drafts and see what they get round 3 and later. 2019 DG found some nice players in late rounds.
Good post  
Oscar : 12/6/2019 12:13 pm : link
To add on, there is ample evidence Gettleman misread the situation or mismanaged it, either way it’s damning.

Gettleman, March 2019: “Really and truly, you can win while you’re building...We’re building. The object of this is to win as many games as possible every year, so we’re building. We were 3-13 when I took over. We were 5-11 last year — 12 of those games were a touchdown or less. We’re building. I don’t understand why that is a question.”

Gettleman, April 2019: “We went into last season believing Eli had a lot left and he’s proven that...We won two more games than the team did the year before, you had all these games that we lost by a point or two. We lost eight games by a touchdown or less. The NFL is tight, tight, tight, a few more plays get you over the top and now you’re winning more.”

These are just a couple of many examples where Gettleman has shown he though the team was in a much better position than it was. Or, possibly, the team was in a better situation and he and Shurmur made it worse. Either way I don’t want the guy running the show going forward.
so who should replace DG?  
Platos : 12/6/2019 12:14 pm : link
who out there has a strong resume?

you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.

we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.

shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.
Can't agree  
Torrag : 12/6/2019 12:15 pm : link
I see the roster improving. DG had limited cap money to work with and was creative in acquiring talent while at the same time moving out the guys that had to go. This will be the first offseason that neither of those concerns will be in effect. I've liked the Draft classes two years in a row. So there is a lot of positive to work with going forward.

Shurmur and much of his coaching staff on the other hand has been a disaster. Betccher and Hunter in particular are just lost.
RE: so who should replace DG?  
jcn56 : 12/6/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14705184 Platos said:
Quote:
who out there has a strong resume?

you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.

we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.

shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.


Reese's last few generated two starters on this team (one that was just extended) a safety that signed a huge deal that generated a 3rd rounder, and a leading #1 WR that generated several picks.

In two drafts, picking at #2 and #6 overall? An underperforming WR, a DB who wouldn't be on the field on most teams, a G that had a good rookie year and is sliding backward, and hopefully a DT that will prove to be better than Snacks.

Yup, great drafts so far - and the results on the field show it.

As for cap hell - he squandered every bit of cap space he got his hands on, when he wasn't trading away picks for the right to do so in Ogletree and Williams.

Resumes for guys who are better? Leave the resume talk to Gettleman, so he can tell you all the rings he's responsible for.
Your dislike of DG is clouding your judgement.  
Red Dog : 12/6/2019 12:24 pm : link
And that is compounded by not having some of your facts straight, making this a completely worthless post.

You are certainly dead right about the results not being there. But the reasons why are a lot more subtle and complex than this one basic truth.
RE: so who should replace DG?  
V.I.G. : 12/6/2019 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14705184 Platos said:
Quote:
who out there has a strong resume?

you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.

we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.

shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.


If you think we settled for Shurmur than that is reason enough. You keep looking until you find a guy. The problem was they had an idea of the "type" they wanted and filled that from that narrower set.

Reese is not the bar. The league is the bar. And we are 2-10 with as many holes to fill today as we had two years ago.
Please ...  
Beer Man : 12/6/2019 12:29 pm : link
Its only been two years. They inherited a talent deficient team that was an absolute mess. It hard to be patient after the final 6 to 7 years of Jerry R, but there was no one to two year fix for the train wreck they inherited after the 2017 season.
RE: RE: so who should replace DG?  
Platos : 12/6/2019 12:33 pm : link
In comment 14705207 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14705184 Platos said:


Quote:


who out there has a strong resume?

you guys act like DG had a plethora of coaches to select that would've gave us better results than shurmur has. shurmur wasn't "picked", he was settled on.

we were in cap hell with malcontents on the team. we're out of that hell in about 5 weeks. sounds like a plus for DG. his drafts have gone better than reese's last 5.

shurmur MUST go, if not he needs to have real coordinators hired. hal hunter is a bum. mike shula is useless. Bettcher is not a leader and his scheme is garbage.



If you think we settled for Shurmur than that is reason enough. You keep looking until you find a guy. The problem was they had an idea of the "type" they wanted and filled that from that narrower set.

Reese is not the bar. The league is the bar. And we are 2-10 with as many holes to fill today as we had two years ago.


keep looking? until when? the NFL doesn't wait until the giants find a coach you know.
some of you guys act like your mothers  
Platos : 12/6/2019 12:36 pm : link
cheated on your dad's with gettleman back in the day.

the cupboard was bare with talent. we fuckin sucked for years. even in mcadoo's first year we sucked. could hardly score points. we got a bunch of FA's on defense who played balls out for their new contracts and the guys quit the very next year.
What?  
Gettledogman : 12/6/2019 12:37 pm : link
His 2 drafts
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.

Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt
Dave, put down the slices and get back in the office.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2019 12:40 pm : link
.
When you take two years to dismantle the roster  
Chip : 12/6/2019 12:43 pm : link
and get rid of the bad contracts and create a lot of dead money you then start the rebuild. Draft a lot of rookies and throw them to the wolves and get rid of the lazy ass veterans. Your going to lose.

Now we have money to go forward and you start the rebuild and hopefully the young guys from the last two drafts will get better and sign a few free agent and the rebuilding process will begin this off season in earnest.

Some of these are just stupid
RE: When you take two years to dismantle the roster  
christian : 12/6/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14705231 Chip said:
Quote:
and get rid of the bad contracts and create a lot of dead money you then start the rebuild. Draft a lot of rookies and throw them to the wolves and get rid of the lazy ass veterans. Your going to lose.

Now we have money to go forward and you start the rebuild and hopefully the young guys from the last two drafts will get better and sign a few free agent and the rebuilding process will begin this off season in earnest.

Some of these are just stupid


Pheww ... Here this whole time I thought Gettleman was actually trying to get better.

I'm glad he's finally going start in earnest.
RE: Someone should send this to Mara  
JCin332 : 12/6/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14705118 Go Terps said:
Quote:
100% accurate.


LOL this thread was like the bat signal for you...
Here's a sobering fact - the best anyone can do is compare  
jcn56 : 12/6/2019 12:47 pm : link
Gettleman's drafts to Reese's final few years here.

Guess what? Reese deserved to be fired specifically for his last few drafts here.

And even after lining them up, and drafting much higher - they're really not any better.
I think Shurmur is toast  
JonC : 12/6/2019 12:50 pm : link
but I'd be surprised if DG goes too, mostly because he's spent the first two seasons tearing down the mess he was left with. But, while I think his drafts are looking plus his usage of UFA and trades are looking really uninformed, imo.
RE: Dave, put down the slices and get back in the office.  
Gettledogman : 12/6/2019 12:53 pm : link
In comment 14705224 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


Its Knish lol
RE: Here's a sobering fact - the best anyone can do is compare  
Gettledogman : 12/6/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14705238 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Gettleman's drafts to Reese's final few years here.

Guess what? Reese deserved to be fired specifically for his last few drafts here.

And even after lining them up, and drafting much higher - they're really not any better.


Kids stay off the drugs -lol
RE: RE: RE: so who should replace DG?  
V.I.G. : 12/6/2019 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14705215 Platos said:
Quote:


keep looking? until when? the NFL doesn't wait until the giants find a coach you know.

So you’re saying there were no other coordinators or college guys that would have been better? OK....
RE: I think Shurmur is toast  
Victor in CT : 12/6/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14705240 JonC said:
Quote:
but I'd be surprised if DG goes too, mostly because he's spent the first two seasons tearing down the mess he was left with. But, while I think his drafts are looking plus his usage of UFA and trades are looking really uninformed, imo.


Agreed. Spot on. The Leonard Williams trade really left me scratching my head.
BBB  
Jerry K : 12/6/2019 1:01 pm : link
I lean toward keeping DG and firing Shurmur. You've stated the reasons why PS must go and DG has made some questionable personnel decisions but a little of that is unavoidable when you're cleansing the roster. Plus DG has at least proven himself a bit in Carolina.

But maybe the biggest reason for changing one and not the other is simply who is available to replace them. There is a good coach available -- Ron Rivera. But who exactly would be available to replace Gettleman?

I think one of the keys to success is knowing when to make the switch -- you've got to identify someone who can get the job done. You can't just fire people and bring in an unproven longshot and hope it works out. Didn't we learn that based on how the Giants have tried to build an O-line?

I think I have a little more faith in Gettleman than I have in Giants ownership when in comes to making key football decisions.
When Ray Handley was fired in 1992/ 1993  
superspynyg : 12/6/2019 1:11 pm : link
Did you want George Young fired as well??

Just because 1 hc is terrible does not mean you have to fire the GM. DG has given Us Barkley, our next franchise QB in Jones, Slayton who has looked like a steal, Dexter Lawrence who has been good,

The coaching staff is to blame. They have failed to progress this team to where it should be.
The OL is why DG stays.  
HoustonGiant : 12/6/2019 1:21 pm : link
The additions are proven improvements, but are under performing. Why?

Coaching, not GM'ing.
Gettleman  
Archer : 12/6/2019 1:28 pm : link
There are many reasons to keep Gettleman and fire Shurmur
They are not linked and it is possible that one could be doing a satisfactory job while the other not.


I do not think that it is possible to evaluate a GM in two years
The Giants team Gettleman inherited was beyond awful
It was not possible to rebuild the roster over night
It will take years to create a talented and deep roster

Gettleman has drafted well and has a concept of what the team should be.


Shurmur on the other hand has not demonstrated that he can coach
His teams have gotten worse and players have not developed
A good coach should be able to develop schemes that maximizes the talent

Talented young players such as;
Barkley , Engram , Jones, Hernandez, Hill, Carter, Tomlinson, etc. have regressed during the season





element of BBB's indictment alluded to but not  
ColHowPepper : 12/6/2019 1:42 pm : link
made explicit is: the three areas where attention and resources--draft and FA--most focused and applied, OL, DL, DBs have not borne fruit as vs the level of competition; they've stagnated or grown worse. Only at DB can one plausibly argue, Bethea aside, that youth and talent may eventually have their day
The only big mistake DG has made was hiring PS.  
Spider56 : 12/6/2019 1:44 pm : link
Granted it’s a monster mistake but DG is at least competent in his job.... the coaching staff not so much.
Lots of good points  
phil in arizona : 12/6/2019 1:45 pm : link
I say that if they are going to double down on DG, going with Rivera makes more sense than keeping Shurmur. He's a much better coach.

I'm with you on wanting a clean sweep from the top down. While I think DG's draft picks have been pretty good, he's been a terrible GM in every other phase of the job. I'd also like to add onto your list that his press conferences are even more cringe-worthy that Reese's.

That being said, do we trust ownership to get it right when selecting the next GM? It's pick your poison at this point.
RE: The only big mistake DG has made was hiring PS.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14705304 Spider56 said:
Quote:
Granted it’s a monster mistake but DG is at least competent in his job.... the coaching staff not so much.


$66 million for nate solder is a big time miss. Not sure how that doesn't count.
I don't understand how Gettleman's drafts are looking good  
Go Terps : 12/6/2019 1:49 pm : link
That's not what I'm seeing on the field week to week. To me this looks like the worst roster the Giants have had in four decades, and the draft classes are part of the reason for that.
Change of hear ton this  
Thegratefulhead : 12/6/2019 1:50 pm : link
I like some of DG as done. I also just, like him. However, I think I would rather hire someone with the credentials and desire to run the whole enchilada. I am exhausted by the...Is it the coach? Is it GM? crap. No softie coaches either. I want someone with balls that drag on the ground they are so big. Get an alpha male and then hold him accountable to success. It is all on you brother. I want someone that embraces that.
Terps  
JonC : 12/6/2019 1:56 pm : link
I like the talent they've assembled at QB, RB, CB as core, and expect with better coaching they will return to form and begin to ascend, versus regressing under this staff.

Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.
RE: What?  
bw in dc : 12/6/2019 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14705222 Gettledogman said:
Quote:
His 2 drafts
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.

Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt


Please go back to your desk, have someone from IT turn you computer on, and start working with Abrams to keep the LW contract at only $17M/yr.

You should self-suspend yourself for your conclusions above...
RE: The OL is why DG stays.  
BlueVinnie : 12/6/2019 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14705269 HoustonGiant said:
Quote:
The additions are proven improvements, but are under performing. Why?

Coaching, not GM'ing.


How can the additions be "proven improvements" if they are underperforming? What is the measure you are using to declare them improvements? If we can't see any improvement on the field, the best you can do is speculate they are improvements.
Well, that's you and you do not own this team nor do you make  
SterlingArcher : 12/6/2019 2:11 pm : link
decisions for this team. The ownership is going to do what they feel is right for this team, we may not like what they do but it is ultimately their decision.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 12/6/2019 2:14 pm : link
In comment 14705328 JonC said:
Quote:
I like the talent they've assembled at QB, RB, CB as core, and expect with better coaching they will return to form and begin to ascend, versus regressing under this staff.

Unfortunately, their upgrades to both the OL and DL are really disappointing, so far.


I don't know. I'm worried about Jones and Barkley is halfway to contract talks. I'm not sure either are still Giants in 3 years.
RE: What?  
BlueVinnie : 12/6/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14705222 Gettledogman said:
Quote:
His 2 drafts
Barkley STud RB,
Jones Franchise QB,
Hernandez Good OG w potential to be great.
Lawrence Stud DL
Baker CB talented needs more time
Ballyntyne Good CB needs more time
Slayton Good WR w potential to be great,
Ximenes Good LBr with potential to be very good.
Love SS who is looking pretty good.

Carolina 3 drafts
RB McCaffrey Stud
OL Tre Turner Stud
DL Kawann Short Stud
LB AJ Klien Stud on NO
LB/DE Shaq Thompson Stud in TB
WR Kelvin Benjamin Good WR
OG Star Lotuilie -looked good got hurt


You toss the word "stud" around pretty loosely. Some of those "studs" are decent players but far from studs. McCaffrey and Short are studs while Saquon has stud potential. Kelvin Benjamin good? He hasn't been able to find a job in almost 2 years.
Pages: 1 2 | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner